The Berserker gets a lot of hate. How would YOU fix it?

[CTurbo]

I have 2 4 ideas.

Frenzy

Option #1
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage, when you take the Attack action on your turn, you can make one additional attack as part of that action. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion.

or

Option #2
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, make a Con save(DC15). On a fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. The save DC increases by 5 for each subsequent time you Frenzy before a Long rest.

or

Option #3
Both 1 + 2


My thoughts-
I do like keeping Exhaustion in there, but it's SO brutal of a set back, I figured Frenzy either needs to be more powerful, or you need to be able to do it a bit more often without suffering such harsh effects. Moving the extra attack to the Attack action instead of the Bonus action to me is much stronger of a feature. I have houseruled in the past that the Berserker gets one free Frenzy a day before Exhaustion kicks in almost assuring at least one good use of it a day, so making the Barb make a save at the end is a similar effect. I do think combining the two is a bit too strong. I do think that Frenzy in specific should get a higher level ability too and I think something similar to the Champion's Survivor feature, but different. How about....

Option #4
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion.
At level 14, while you are in a Frenzy, anytime you reduce a creature to 0 hit points, you regain hit points equal to your Con modifier up to your hit point maximum.

[Kane0]

Option 1 looks like the cleanest way to do it. Also the most powerful, but exhaustion is no joke.

I personally tend to overdo my simple fixes, so my berserker barb ended up being a frankensteins monster of berserker, battlerager and heavy armor with rage

[Silly Name]

My houserule to help a Berserker player at my table is that Berserkers ignore exhaustion while in a frenzy. The setback is still there, but at least he can manage it a bit better if he needs to be at full strength.

[Rukelnikov]

Short Version:

Option #1:

"All exhaustion levels gained by use of this feature go away on a short rest."

Option #2:

03- "This level of exhaustion goes away with a short rest".
06- "All exhaustion levels gained by use of this feature go away on a long rest."
10- Retaliation
14- Intimidating Presence + "All exhaustion levels gained by use of this feature go away on a short rest."

Reasoning behind:

The thing to take into account is how the mechanical effects will reflect on the archetype we are trying to emulate.

Having an extra attack as a bonus action incentivizes having the strongest sintle attack possible.

Having extra damage incentivizes having as many attacks as possible.

Having an extra attack during your attack action incentivizes finding something else to do with the bonus action.

Currently, granting an extra attack as a bonus action, makes it so you get the most from that feature by wielding a greatsword or maul, and almost the with a greataxe.

Zerks wielding big weapons and foregoing any kind of strategy or personal safety in order to maximize damage fits the general idea of the archetype it is trying to emulate.

If we change that to an extra attack during your attack action, now PAM w/quarterstaff + shield or Glaive would become the go to build, making Zerks tankier fighter and straying from what it tried to emulate in the first place.

So I think the bonus is "ok", it provides an increase in damage that encourages our archetype (which maybe should be a bit higher, but I think they get Retaliation later on to keep up). However, the downside is what is crippling, one level of exhaustion, under normal circumstances takes one adventuring day to go away. So, if we choose to use our defining feature, we will be crippled until the end of the adventuring day.

Is the benefit powerful enough to warrant such a downside? No. Then we could either improve the benefit (while keeping it in line with the archetype) or lessen the downside. However, even if we improved the benefit, to make it mechanically convenient, it won't be fun to play. Because having a single scene in a play makes you be constantly worrying about wether or not is this the scene were I wanna be special or not.

Thus, lessening the downside is the only way to make it fun to play. The simplest way would be:

"This level of exhaustion goes away with a short rest".

This now means, you can do your thing and get a debuff, but still be in top shape for the big bad later, or another possible tough encounter.

Now, I think we can do even better by adding:

"All exhaustion levels gained by use of this feature go away on a long rest."

That allows for more punishing "final pushs", maybe frenzying a second time if you think its the last fight of the adventuring day. In truth, I don't think this makes THAT much of a difference, but it may.

But if we make it:

"All exhaustion levels gained by use of this feature go away on a short rest."

This encourages severe self punishment, Frenzy as much as you can, and if you have 3 encounters on a short-rest, deal with the REAL exhaustion drawbacks.

I think this is the best way to mechanically incentivise the archetype, "go all out then end up fatigued", without having the mechanics get in the way of the roleplay.

It could also just be improvements of the feature, start with 1/short rest at 3, all/long rest at 6, and all/short rest at 10 or 14. (This I'll call the improving version)

You could even start with the current one, and move the 3 improvements one step further. I don't think that would be a good fix though, since it would be the same current Zerk till 6, and we are trying to make current Zerk better.

As a side note, in the "Improving version" I think Retaliation should be moved from 14 to 10, and there are 2 resons for this:

#1- Because it still can't rage more than once per short rest without crippling itself for the day, and most other damaging specs are getting a damage buff at around lvl 11, Fighters get a 3rd attack, and other martials get something to make up for this difference in DPR. Paladins get IDS, almost all Ranger subs get a DPR buff, etc.

So, since they cant use their subs' only DPR increasing feature more than once/SR, they need to get another one at around this time to "keep up"

#2- While that Increase could come from all exhaustion levels going away on a sr, since that indirectly increases DPR by allowing more liberal use of the feature, I think that sounds like a better capstone for the subclass than returning attacks to aggressors.

[Aett_Thorn]

Personally, I give one free use of Frenzy per long rest. Use it again, and you get a level of exhaustion. But the first use does not.

[Asmotherion]

-Spend an amount of HD on a Short Rest to remove a level of exhaustion for each HD spent.

-On a long rest, remove your Con bonus Levels of exhaustion.

[JellyPooga]

I don't like the exhaustion mechanic at all. It's such an oddball outlier compared to basically any other Class feature.

Rather, I would "fix" it by adding additional end conditions to Rage. Rather than Rage persisting if you attack or take damage, make it so that your Rage ends if you do not attack or perhaps even if you don't use your bonus action to attack; taking damage, alone, is not enough to maintain your rage. With Rage being as limited a resource as it is, I feel this a significant enough ability to balance the boon; all you foe has to do is scatter or otherwise stop you from attacking and you're in a position of needing to spend an extra use of Rage or not benefit at all.

[Dienekes]

Possibly silly idea:

Frenzy: While in a Rage, your Rage Bonus to damage is tripled.

At 3rd level this is just a +4 to damage. Much less than Berserker currently gives. This increases to a more respectable +8 at 5th which is where it starts to get close to matching up with the base form. Up to +16 at 16th level. Which is about equivalent to an extra attack with a magic item at that level.

This would also make it work much better with GWM and Retaliation. And gives good ole Barb a new sub-niche: the disruptor of all Concentration which one would think a giant slab of meat holding a great axe and foaming at the mouth should be.

[Spiritchaser]

I've been thinking about this a little recently, I might let a player try:

"During a short rest you may attempt to remove up to one level of exhaustion by spending a hit dice and making a constitution save. The DC for the first time per long rest is X, and per the second is X+5"

I haven't tried this, or figured out X yet, though it should probably be set so that a typical level 8 barbarian without party support would have better than even odds on the first save, and maybe about even odds on the second, so maybe about 10 and 15 or 15 and 20 (or some such). With party support this could potentially be quite easy. Edit: It might also make sense to have higher DCs but allow multiple attempts per short rest

That said, I think the frenzy barbarian needs more than just this... but that's another story.

[Quietus]

The easy solution is to let the Berserker Barbarian get rid of exhaustion on a short rest. But I had a thought the other day, and that is... just completely ignore the exhaustion aspect. Throw it out entirely, along with the bonus action attack. Instead :


"Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you fly into a frenzy whenever you rage. While raging, once per round, you may reroll a single missed attack roll, with all of the same modifiers that applied to the original roll."

Straightforward, simple. You rage and you miss, try again. You're just swinging THAT. OFTEN. It becomes the yin to Bear Totem's yang; Bear totem is the reliable defense. Berserker becomes the reliable offense. I really don't have any problems with the rest of the subclass, and this synergizes so well with GWM that it'd be a shame NOT to take it, mechanically incentivizing but not requiring you to take that feat.

[Barny]

Frenzy is good but having exhaustion cost significantly out weight the benefit, especially you can have multiple encounters per long rest.

So you have the following options for improving this subclass.

1) buffing Frenzy; however, exhaustion still hurts during multiple encounters before long rest.

2) removing exhaustion at all, or removing it during short rest... It's fine if you want to make this subclass powerful than others.

3) Change exhaustion to other negative effects or penalties.

For example, changing 100% exhaustion to a failed CON save to get exhaustion. The DC can set as (10+# of rage uses after long rest) [easymode] or (8+Prof. bonus+# of rage uses after long rest) [hardmode].

[stoutstien]

My current fix us is to flip retaliation and frenzy and remove the exhaustion penalty all together.

[Benny89]

Meh, my fix is simple, if you Frenzy + do reckless attack you can use your bonus action to make extra attack. After frenzy end you need to pass CON saving throw of suffer one level of exhaustion.

That's it.

Zealot and Bear is so popular anyway that this at least brings some interest in playing something else.

Also this prevents YET ANOTHER martial character to take PAM feat to use his bonus action to attack.

Honestly, more martial subclasses should have ways to attack with bonus action. Then XBE and PAM would less mandatory to take on most melee/range builds out there.

[N810]

Add this to your level 3 berserker abilities.

Option #3 Remove all levels of exhaustion on a long rest

Option #4 Remove a level of exhaustion on a short or long rest.

[J-H]

Make Frenzy once per long rest with no consequence. That way a berserker has it, guaranteed, once per day, and often a second time per day.
If you want to make it top-tier, move the extra attack to the Attack action.

[pragma]

My house rule is similar to Benny89's, replace the text of frenzy with:

Frenzy - While you are raging, you may make a melee weapon attack as a bonus action in any round that you use Reckless Attack.

I don't see any reason to pull exhaustion into it at all. By encouraging reckless attack, I'm hoping to replace the sense of risk/reward with HP damage.

[Willie the Duck]

Honestly, I would almost start from the other direction: -- make it such that the Berserker got a bonus action attack when they raged (no exhaustion) and just pared it down until it was balanced. Maybe just limit the damage to be 1d4 instead of regular weapon damage -- representing a butt strike like PAM, or perhaps a really devastating bite (the historic Berserkers were always depicted as chewing on their shields and such), or only when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points, like GWM.

[AvatarVecna]

Step 1: Make Berserker as good for offense as Bear Totem is for defense.

Step 2: Make it even better than that.

Step 3: Give exhaustion after rage ends, to make up for how much better Berserker is at killing than Totem is at not getting killed.

Steps 2 and 3 are optional.

[Segev]

"When you roll initiative, or any time on your turn as a free action, you may roll a hit die and enter a Frenzy. This Frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to what you rolled plus your Constitution modifier. While in a Frenzy, you gain the benefits of a rage, and may make an attack as a bonus action. You can recognize friends and allies, but everything that you did not consider such when you entered the Frenzy is considered an enemy, and you cannot stop trying your best to kill enemies until your Frenzy ends. If there are no living enemies, you attack their corpses. You can end a Frenzy early by spending and rolling another Hit Die and adding your Wisdom modifier to it, reducing the remaining rounds by the result, or by taking a level of Exhaustion as you emotionally drain yourself without full catharsis."

This suddenly gives FAR MORE rages per day than any other barbarian, with a perk, but still has some disadvantages to it.

[AvatarVecna]

My propositions, to that effect.

Frenzy: While raging, you make an extra attack as part of every attack action.

Optional: Rage bonus is now always equal to proficiency bonus. When your rage ends, you gain a level of exhaustion.

Whirling Barbarian is straightforward and dangerous. It combines with Reckless Attack and Brutal Critical to make the Berserker a solid crit-fisher. The optional extra damage more solidifies that each hit will be brutal. These benefits are at least partially offset by how rage can be ended outside your control by a lack of taking/dealing damage. Moving the extra attack to the attack action keeps your BA free for other stuff, potentially including various other "extra attack" options.

Frenzy: While raging, any weapon you're holding gains properties as if it were an uncommon magic weapon of your choice. At lvl 6, 10, and 14, this upgrades one rarity.

Optional: These magic item properties stack with any you already have. When your rage ends, you gain a level of exhaustion.

This is less "death by a thousand cuts", but makes the 1-3 attacks the berserker gets hit harder by default. It also gives the berserker a bit of strategy to their raging - what magic weapon is the right choice, here? Letting it stack breaks bounded accuracy a little bit, but no worse than (for example) a champion taking archery and Close Quarters Shooter fighting styles.

Will post more dumb ideas if I think of any.

[N810]

A few observations from having played a Berserker for 3 years.

Do you guys realize that the frenzy bonus attack is by default not tied to using the attack action ?

all of the fixes that reduce the frenzy damage are straight up nerfs, even if they work all day.

tying frenzy to reckless attack is not much of a drawback, as you be attacking recklessly most of the time if you are raging.



I had a though, get rid of intimidating Presence and move retaliation to it's slot, and in it's place add another +2 rage damage to attacks if you are frenzying.

[Civis Mundi]

It's not the most original way to go, but my preference is just to replace Mindless Rage with an ability like this one:

Tireless Fury: Starting at 6th level, taking a short rest reduces your exhaustion level by 1, and taking a long rest removes all levels of exhaustion.

Then you can move Mindless Rage to some other subclass, potentially with a different name. Or just replace Intimidating Presence with Mindless Rage.

I like the added flavor of a warrior who easily shrugs off exhaustion in general, and it could have niche uses for pushing yourself beyond your limits. Unfortunately, what exactly that might entail is up to DM discretion.

[elyktsorb]

Takes 2 rages to give you 1 lvl of exhaustion. And then go from there.

[N810]

It's not the most original way to go, but my preference is just to replace Mindless Rage with an ability like this one:

Tireless Fury: Starting at 6th level, taking a short rest reduces your exhaustion level by 1, and taking a long rest removes all levels of exhaustion.

Then you can move Mindless Rage to some other subclass, potentially with a different name. Or just replace Intimidating Presence with Mindless Rage.

I like the added flavor of a warrior who easily shrugs off exhaustion in general, and it could have niche uses for pushing yourself beyond your limits. Unfortunately, what exactly that might entail is up to DM discretion.

I found Intimidating Presence fairly useless. I think I used it once in 20 levels. :/

[Willie the Duck]

Do you guys realize that the frenzy bonus attack is by default not tied to using the attack action ?

I don't think anyone has indicated that they think otherwise. AvatarVecna moved it to part of the attack sequence, but as a clear and specific change from the existing rules.


all of the fixes that reduce the frenzy damage are straight up nerfs, even if they work all day.
Right, and if you remove or reduce the exhaustion effect, there might be need for some nerfing.


tying frenzy to reckless attack is not much of a drawback, as you be attacking recklessly most of the time if you are raging.
Definitely true.


I had a though, get rid of intimidating Presence and move retaliation to it's slot, and in it's place add another +2 rage damage to attacks if you are frenzying.
If you weren't going to constrain the penalties, this would definitely help by increasing the benefits. I guess it matters who our target audience is. I think for more than a small portion of gamers, the exhaustion mechanic is just too big a hit, regardless of the benefits. However this population has probably already moved on to zealots or fighters/paladins/something else.

[Man_Over_Game]

I like the idea of gaining benefits while you're Exhausted, even while you're not Raging (since you're still Exhausted even while not Raging).

For example, you get a bonus to your attack, skill, and damage rolls, equal to how much Exhaustion you have. You also reduce any lost HP by this bonus.

Exhaustion 4? You mean Damage Reduction 4. Who cares that I have Disadvantage when I'm guaranteed to hit you with +4 damage?

[Civis Mundi]

I found Intimidating Presence fairly useless. I think I used it once in 20 levels. :/

I agree. The thought is to replace Mindless Rage with Tireless Fury (the exhaustion-reducing ability I made up), take out Intimidating Presence, and put Mindless Rage in its place.

[Zuras]

Why not keep Frenzy per PHB at 3rd, but at 6th upgrade it to “if you already have one or more levels of exhaustion, you may expend a hit die to avoid a gaining level of exhaustion after using this feature”.

[N810]

I agree. The thought is to replace Mindless Rage with Tireless Fury (the exhaustion-reducing ability I made up), take out Intimidating Presence, and put Mindless Rage in its place.

That's pretty decent.

[Satori01]

Houserule #1 No Exhaustion penalty for Frenzy.

Exhaustion like mechanics for Barbarians in ANY edition of D&D are either quickly ignored, or the class is just not selected.

It is poor design.

[Dienekes]

I like the idea of gaining benefits while you're Exhausted, even while you're not Raging (since you're still Exhausted even while not Raging).

For example, you get a bonus to your attack, skill, and damage rolls, equal to how much Exhaustion you have. You also reduce any lost HP by this bonus.

Exhaustion 4? You mean Damage Reduction 4. Who cares that I have Disadvantage when I'm guaranteed to hit you with +4 damage?

I worry this will promote some unwanted behaviors. Where the Barbarian constantly tries to be completely exhausted to the point they can barely move, can’t make any ability check out of combat, and is basically just a lump waiting to be mind controlled, carried around on a litter of underlings absolutely useless until initiative is rolled.

It is though a kind of hilarious thought.

[Kyutaru]

Houserule #1 No Exhaustion penalty for Frenzy.

Exhaustion like mechanics for Barbarians in ANY edition of D&D are either quickly ignored, or the class is just not selected.

It is poor design.

Exhaustion was a penalty for the Berserker in Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal and it's actually considered the top class when paired with mage. Berserker/Mage is an OP combo in a game that encourages having a mage dual- or multi-class and Berserker was the favorite Fighter kit.

The difference is their exhaustion wore off 30 seconds after the battle. It wasn't a permanent friend that you grew to hate. Having this "winded" effect go away on a short rest is a fine solution.

[T.G. Oskar]

I insist on adding something to the Frenzy to make the Exhaustion a bit more palatable, even though I agree that imposing one level of exhaustion with every Rage is just inhibiting the Barbarian when it uses its main schtick.

Since Barbarians thrive on critical hits but don't get a way to fish for them, why not have Frenzy allow a crit on a natural 19 or 20 roll with any attack they make? With Reckless Attack, that gives a solid chance to land a crit, which plays excessively well with Brutal Critical; however, the exhaustion makes it so that you measure its use carefully. Even if, as mentioned, you get a bonus action attack that's not tied to your Attack action, it's rare to do something else that'd consume your action other than Attack, so it's functionally tied to it. The increase in the range on the d20 where you can make a critical hit would apply to everything.

That said, allowing a Con save to stave off that level of exhaustion would be a fair trade.

FRENZY
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20. Furthermore, you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against a DC of 15 or suffer one level of exhaustion.

[micahaphone]

Why not keep Frenzy per PHB at 3rd, but at 6th upgrade it to “if you already have one or more levels of exhaustion, you may expend a hit die to avoid a gaining level of exhaustion after using this feature”.

I like this because it feels very thematic, you're spending future body ability to heal in exchange for power now. A Hasty Bargain type deal. But I seem to remember some wotc designer saying something about why they don't provide other uses for hit die. I wish I could find it. Maybe I'm making that up in my memory

[djreynolds]

How about flippling this?

Frenzy is really.... Okay at best. You get 9 BA out of it. And at best 1d12 greatsword attack vs 1d4 polearm buttstroke.

So let's make this level of exhaustion worth it... really worth it.

When using frenzy, you no longer give enemies advantage to hit you while recklessly attacking.

Now is this worth it for only 9 rounds and 1 level of exhaustion

[Man_Over_Game]

I worry this will promote some unwanted behaviors. Where the Barbarian constantly tries to be completely exhausted to the point they can barely move, can’t make any ability check out of combat, and is basically just a lump waiting to be mind controlled, carried around on a litter of underlings absolutely useless until initiative is rolled.

It is though a kind of hilarious thought.

I'd probably add a clause that you ignore the negative effects while Frenzying, and can Rage as a Reaction if you ever have to make a Saving Throw or take damage.

So there's always the valid strategy of being a useless lump at 5 stacks, needing to fight one last time and then spending your last breath on killing the bastard that bothered you.

[Pex]

Get rid of the exhaustion.

If what you have left is so OMG powerful how dare anyone do that the game is broken forever, then get rid of the ability and do something else. I don't care what the new something is. Whatever cool thing you find appropriate don't punish the player for doing it. Don't make him lose hit points, lose turns, be unable to do stuff, be more vulnerable to enemy attacks. He should never be worse off doing whatever it is he's supposed to be doing other than having spent a resource to do it if it costs some resource allotment of a fanciful name (mana, ki, spell slot, number of times per rest/day, etc.).

[Misterwhisper]

Very easy fix.

Just ignore the fatigue level.

It is not so powerful that they need a negative

[Dienekes]

I'd probably add a clause that you ignore the negative effects while Frenzying, and can Rage as a Reaction if you ever have to make a Saving Throw or take damage.

So there's always the valid strategy of being a useless lump at 5 stacks, needing to fight one last time and then spending your last breath on killing the bastard that bothered you.

See that's a neat concept.

One of my favorite characters in modern fantasy is Logan "The Bloody Nine" Ninefingers. Who essentially when the moment is dire enough (or if he just loses control) goes berserk and ends so completely exhausted he falls unconscious at the end of it.

But I don't think 1 Exhaustion for Frenzy is a good mechanic for that. Or the whole "one last fight before I die" story.

If that was going to be the story we're going for I'd place it as something like:

Frenzy: While in a Rage you ignore the effects of Exhaustion. In addition, you get some other basic benefit to Rage, +Proficiency damage. Whatever, something simple.

And then you get the ability to do something very specific and very neat in a quick burst, and have that be what costs Exhaustion. So that on particularly hard encounters where you need to Nova above and beyond what a Barbarian should ever need to do. You can choose to gain Exhaustion. But this is not and should not be the basic package item for the subclass. This is something far greater. Like a Paladin's max crit Smite. It should be awe inspiring and have a terrible cost. And they can keep fueling these abilities as necessary.

It still doesn't exactly fit the narrative. There's less of that wildness to it as I would like.

[Man_Over_Game]

See that's a neat concept.

One of my favorite characters in modern fantasy is Logan "The Bloody Nine" Ninefingers. Who essentially when the moment is dire enough (or if he just loses control) goes berserk and ends so completely exhausted he falls unconscious at the end of it.

But I don't think 1 Exhaustion for Frenzy is a good mechanic for that. Or the whole "one last fight before I die" story.

If that was going to be the story we're going for I'd place it as something like:

Frenzy: While in a Rage you ignore the effects of Exhaustion. In addition, you get some other basic benefit to Rage, +Proficiency damage. Whatever, something simple.

And then you get the ability to do something very specific and very neat in a quick burst, and have that be what costs Exhaustion. So that on particularly hard encounters where you need to Nova above and beyond what a Barbarian should ever need to do. You can choose to gain Exhaustion. But this is not and should not be the basic package item for the subclass. This is something far greater. Like a Paladin's max crit Smite. It should be awe inspiring and have a terrible cost. And they can keep fueling these abilities as necessary.

It still doesn't exactly fit the narrative. There's less of that wildness to it as I would like.

A major issue I have with the Exhaustion feature overall is that it's not just a cost that affects that particular moment, like Reckless Attack does. It's a cost that not only persists, but also stacks. Gain 2 Exhaustion a day, lose 1 a day, and you'll literally die on day 5. So you HAVE to use the feature at a bare maximum average of once per day. Features need to be regularly used, otherwise they'll feel like a waste, and your subclass choice deserves to be the most important choice you can make. There's a reason the Champion basically gives you nothing and is still really popular, because a consistent reminder of "I AM CHAMPION" is actually more fun than being one actually gives you.

Sure, you can spend a couple days of rest to deal with Exhaustion, but we're talking about 5e. There's a reason most people hate the Gritty Realism setting, and it's not because they're worried casters become useless. Doing that 2-3 times a week, as a BARBARIAN? Yeah, that's friggin' stupid.

And yet, Exhaustion is actually a pretty cool mechanic, one of the more interesting ones in the game. Trivializing it into being worthless isn't all that beneficial either.

So my belief is that you need to have a persistent feature that lasts for as long as your penalty does. That way, when you can't afford to use Frenzy, you still have a constant, persisting feature that's always relevant. And since Exhaustion lasts even when you're not Raging, I further believe that this feature needs to persist out of Rage as well.

Either that, or completely remove the Exhaustion mechanic from the Berserker. One of the two is an absolute necessity.

Even spending a Long Rest spell slot does not have a higher cost if you spent other spell slots with it, and it provides no other penalty other than the Long Rest. Put another way, Frenzy is more expensive than a level 9 spell slot, so we should be looking at it as one.

[Dienekes]

A major issue I have with the Exhaustion feature overall is that it's not just a cost that affects that particular moment, like Reckless Attack does. It's a cost that not only persists, but also stacks. Gain 2 Exhaustion a day, lose 1 a day, and you'll literally die on day 5. So you HAVE to use the feature at a bare maximum average of once per day. Features need to be regularly used, otherwise they'll feel like a waste, and your subclass choice deserves to be the most important choice you can make. There's a reason the Champion basically gives you nothing and is still really popular, because a consistent reminder of "I AM CHAMPION" is actually more fun than being one actually gives you.

Sure, you can spend a couple days of rest to deal with Exhaustion, but we're talking about 5e. There's a reason most people hate the Gritty Realism setting, and it's not because they're worried casters become useless. Doing that 2-3 times a week, as a BARBARIAN? Yeah, that's friggin' stupid.

And yet, Exhaustion is actually a pretty cool mechanic, one of the more interesting ones in the game. Trivializing it into being worthless isn't all that beneficial either.

So my belief is that you need to have a persistent feature that lasts for as long as your penalty does. That way, when you can't afford to use Frenzy, you still have a constant, persisting feature that's always relevant. And since Exhaustion lasts even when you're not Raging, I further believe that this feature needs to persist out of Rage as well.

Either that, or completely remove the Exhaustion mechanic from the Berserker. One of the two is an absolute necessity.

Even spending a Long Rest spell slot does not have a higher cost if you spent other spell slots with it, and it provides no other penalty other than the Long Rest. Put another way, Frenzy is more expensive than a level 9 spell slot, so we should be looking at it as one.

Well let’s think about this in what the system has, how that interacts, and what we want from it.

It currently has Exhaustion which by itself is actually pretty neat. Steps on a spiraling staircase of doom is pretty cool. And honestly, a part of me wishes more conditions were like this: you can be charmed. Get charmed twice your controlled. Get charmed 5 times your dominated. 6 times your basically a brain dead puppet. That sort of stuff.

What we want, from the Berserker is a dramatic choice. Do this crazy powerful thing, and you may well die or be drastically weakened.

We want this to have lasting negative consequences.

I personally don’t want the player to be motivated to always be a decrepit weakling when not in combat. And I think most work arounds will negate the cost of Exhaustion, ruining the horrid choice.

I also believe Barbarians should be somewhat wild and unruly. Chaotic. Randomness being involved I think more fits what a Barbarian is supposed to be.

Here’s my pitch.

Frenzy: When in a rage gain offensive benefit. Something simple and Barbarian-y. Also you get to ignore Exhaustion while raging.

Berserk: when in a rage, you can choose to double/triple/quadruple the benefits of being in a frenzy for the remainder of the rage. Once the Rage is concluded, roll a d6 and subtract 2. You gain a number of levels of Exhaustion equal to your roll, minimum 0.

That should give someone pause from using it. Won’t kill you after one use. But it’s definitely the nuclear option. Done only in times of great need. And it should be powerful.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, lets be honest, the bonus action attack is not that impressive. Not when you figure in that both PAM and a single level of Monk give you Bonus Action attacks, and the Monk gets a proper scaling one like the Berserker. So, why not just remove Exhaustion from the equation entirely? That makes Berserker a lot better by fixing its one big issue, and nothing breaks because nothing was being broken beforehand.

[Civis Mundi]

I mean, lets be honest, the bonus action attack is not that impressive. Not when you figure in that both PAM and a single level of Monk give you Bonus Action attacks, and the Monk gets a proper scaling one like the Berserker. So, why not just remove Exhaustion from the equation entirely? That makes Berserker a lot better by fixing its one big issue, and nothing breaks because nothing was being broken beforehand.

That bonus action attack is a lot stronger with a greataxe or greatsword, Rage, GWM, and Reckless Attack to help ensure a hit with that -5/+10. It’s even stronger with a Champion and Brutal Critical.

[Kemev]

Just ignore the fatigue level.

It is not so powerful that they need a negative


I mean, lets be honest, the bonus action attack is not that impressive. Not when you figure in that both PAM and a single level of Monk give you Bonus Action attacks, and the Monk gets a proper scaling one like the Berserker. So, why not just remove Exhaustion from the equation entirely? That makes Berserker a lot better by fixing its one big issue, and nothing breaks because nothing was being broken beforehand.

Agreed, this would be my preferred solution. Frenzy would simply read: "For the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action."

It is a useful and powerful ability, but other classes get powerful abilities by level 3. Only the berserker is expected to eat a significant drawback on a key class feature. In terms of relative damage, the bonus attack puts the berserker slightly ahead of a Warlock with Eldritch Blast + Hex or archer Ranger with Hunter's Mark. As noted above, it's still on par with other bonus-action-attack-based martial builds.

This seems fine for a melee warrior class.

EDIT: I got ninja'd by the comment on GWM... Think about that specific build for a minute -- a Berserker/Champion with GWM -- and compare it to a similar paladin/hexblade (which I think is probably the top melee build).

Industry Leader
Variant Human
feat: PAM
Hexblade 1 / Paladin 5
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16*

Assuming our Industry Leading melee expert is using opening with Hex, it will get 2 attacks at 1d10+1d6+3 damage (avg 12 each), and a bonus attack at 1d4+1d6+4 (avg 9). If those attacks hit, that average 33 damage. There's also the option to use Hexblade's Curse (which helps off-set the Champion's Improved Crit), and Divine Smite (with a significant number of spell slots behind it). I'm also omitting the potential reaction attack, which isn't a guarantee (although the barbarian lacks a similar ability for several levels).

*I'm leaving off the effects of an ASI; which could be an extra feat or additional damage.

vs

Proposed Challenger
Variant Human
Feat: GWM
Berserker 3 / Champion 3
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10

Let's assume we're using a 2d6 weapon and raging. With a free bonus attack, its 2 attacks at 2d6+5 (avg 12 each). Assuming both attacks hit, that's only 24. With GWM, it's tempting to call that 44 damage... but there's a reduced EV from the additional chance the attacks miss. Assuming for the moment we're using Reckless Attack, we're still looking at a ~ -2 (or -10%) chance to hit, so the EV is more like 34 damage. That's only slightly ahead of the Paladin, and the Paladin still has the option to smite. With advantage the Barbarian has a higher chance to crit, but those smites still put the Paladin ahead on critical damage. Again, this is assuming Reckless Attack, so the Barbarian's effectively taking twice as much damage, which negates the benefit of damage resistance. The paladin still has their defensive abilities to contribute.

Admittedly this is a rough snapshot; the 3/3 split at level 6 is a tough because you're missing Extra Attack. It's also why I left the ASI out of the equation. But the gap doesn't close as the two characters progress in levels... it gets more heavily in favor of the Paladin. They get more spells to smite with, and, at their option, could take GWM as well. The berserker is MAD, so its harder to take additional feats (even if there were a comparable additional feat to take). Even Brutal Critical doesn't close the gap; a critical Smite is just dramatically better.

This also ignores narrative encounters, where again, the Hexadin brings more tools to the table.

So yeah, that free bonus attack from Frenzy? It's good.

Is it broken? Nah.

[Segev]

Agreed, this would be my preferred solution. Frenzy would simply read: "For the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action."

It is a useful and powerful ability, but other classes get powerful abilities by level 3. Only the berserker is expected to eat a significant drawback on a key class feature. In terms of relative damage, the bonus attack puts the berserker slightly ahead of a Warlock with Eldritch Blast + Hex or archer Ranger with Hunter's Mark. As noted above, it's still on par with other bonus-action-attack-based martial builds.

This seems fine for a melee warrior class.

Not defending it mechanically, but the reason there's a drawback is because of legacy. Berserking has always been a double-edged sword. It's being one of the most deadly warriors on the field (in theory, anyway, and it usually does deliver something at least putting you in the ballpark) in exchange for being totally out of control and risking death or worse.

Exhaustion is actually pretty bad as the drawback in the light cast by prior editions, where the consequence was a risk of hurting others who you didn't really want to, and being otherwise unable to stop in a timely fashion.

[sithlordnergal]

That bonus action attack is a lot stronger with a greataxe or greatsword, Rage, GWM, and Reckless Attack to help ensure a hit with that -5/+10. It’s even stronger with a Champion and Brutal Critical.

I mean, you can make it stronger with those feats and choices sure, but you can get those same benefits with PAM and GWM since GWM only requires an attack made with a Heavy weapon. I will admit, it takes two feats to do that combo, but its do-able by anyone. Heck, you could go Varient Human, Bear Totem Barbarian, and snag either PAM or GWM, then the other feat, and now you do the same thing the Berserker does without any of the exhaustion.

Yes, your attack will do a bit less damage, as the Berserker will do an average of 49 damage, assuming an 18 Strength and Greatsword, compared to 39, assuming 16 Strength and Glaive. But on the flip side, you get to do that damage without Exhaustion. +10 damage isn't strong enough to warrant any sort of debuff, not when its tied to a Long Rest limited resource like Rage.

[Skylivedk]

Possibly silly idea:

Frenzy: While in a Rage, your Rage Bonus to damage is tripled.

At 3rd level this is just a +4 to damage. Much less than Berserker currently gives. This increases to a more respectable +8 at 5th which is where it starts to get close to matching up with the base form. Up to +16 at 16th level. Which is about equivalent to an extra attack with a magic item at that level.

This would also make it work much better with GWM and Retaliation. And gives good ole Barb a new sub-niche: the disruptor of all Concentration which one would think a giant slab of meat holding a great axe and foaming at the mouth should be.
I like this one a lot. It's closest to my own solution (coming at the bottom).


The easy solution is to let the Berserker Barbarian get rid of exhaustion on a short rest. But I had a thought the other day, and that is... just completely ignore the exhaustion aspect. Throw it out entirely, along with the bonus action attack. Instead :


"Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you fly into a frenzy whenever you rage. While raging, once per round, you may reroll a single missed attack roll, with all of the same modifiers that applied to the original roll."

Straightforward, simple. You rage and you miss, try again. You're just swinging THAT. OFTEN. It becomes the yin to Bear Totem's yang; Bear totem is the reliable defense. Berserker becomes the reliable offense. I really don't have any problems with the rest of the subclass, and this synergizes so well with GWM that it'd be a shame NOT to take it, mechanically incentivizing but not requiring you to take that feat.
Also a big fan of this one! I might replace it with my damage die solution because it is so clean. I would let dual wielders do it twice.

My current fix us is to flip retaliation and frenzy and remove the exhaustion penalty all together.
Also a fan!

My own:
Frenzy
As a bonus action, or as part of entering your rage, you can whip yourself into a frenzy.

When you are in a frenzy all of your attacks deal 1d4 extra damage.

This damage increases to 1d6 at level 9 and 1d8 at level 16.

When your frenzy ends, you gain one level of exhaustion unless you succeed at a DC 15 Constitution check. This DC increases with 5 for each frenzy after the first. The DC resets to 15 when you take a short rest.

Relentless
Beginning at 6th level, you can shake off exhaustion that would bring anyone else to their knees. As part of taking a short or a long rest, you can roll a DC 15 Constitution Save to remove a level of Exhaustion. If you succeed and have more levels of exhaustion, you can roll again. The DC increases with 5 for each additional level of Exhaustion you attempt to remove this way.


Note
The idea here was to make dual wielders benefit from Frenzy as well. My house rules also include having 2 attacks with your bonus action as a dual wielder at level 11 if you have the Extra Attack feature. The other point was to lean into the critical hit part of Barbarians

[Kemev]

Not defending it mechanically, but the reason there's a drawback is because of legacy.

I don't accept this as a valid argument. We ignore a lot of historical verisimilitude for gameplay value. By your logic, should also routinely impose exhaustion penalties for anyone wearing heavy armor, since heat stroke and death were a constant risk for anyone wearing a hauberk or plate.

If you want to talk legacy in terms of D&D, the 3e Frenzied Berserker PrC was one of the only martial classes that could keep pace with spellcasters for damage output. It received a hasted bonus attack, massive strength bonus that stacked with Rage benefits, super-duper-power attack, and yes, the exhaustion penalties disappeared after a couple levels.

The only part of that ported into 5e is the bonus attack, at a crippling and inescapable penalty. WotC opted to carry a lot of interesting and powerful abilities forward from previous d20 editions, yet for some reason did not do so for the Berserker. For comparison, in 3.5 the Hexblade and the Frenzied Berserker both appeared in the same book... look how differently they developed :(

[Cybren]

I wouldn’t. It’s okay for the relative value of subclass options to vary based on optional rules in play. Arguably there are too sources that give a bonus action attack, but without polearm master and other feats the benefit of the berserker (a bonus action attack that doesn’t stipulate what you use your action on, usable once/day with mostly no downside but if necessary more than once) is more significant

[heavyfuel]

The Berserker's features are pretty on par for what Barbarians usually get, the only problem with the Subclass is the Exhaustion mechanic, which is indeed so brutal.

I'd make it so that Berserkers (and Berserkers only) gain the ability to recover 1 exhaustion level with a Short Rest.

Alternatively, I'd keep exhaustion as it is, but I'd make Frenzy MUCH stronger (as it stands, it's weaker than PAM).

Something like: When you enter a Frenzy you gain temporary HP equal to your Rage damage every time you start your turn and you can use your bonus action to make two extra attacks

[HappyDaze]

Simple fix idea: Frenzy costs 1 HD when initiated. If this HD is not spent, the barbarian gains 1 level of exhaustion at the end of the rage.

[Segev]

Simple fix idea: Frenzy costs 1 HD when initiated. If this HD is not spent, the barbarian gains 1 level of exhaustion at the end of the rage.
Close to what I recommended, with spending and rolling an HD and adding your Con mod determining a number of rounds a frenzy lasts.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't like the exhaustion mechanic at all. Fixing the exhaustion mechanic fixes not only Frenzy Barbarian, but also fixes a variety of other issues with the mechanic.

My various proposed previous 'how to fix exhaustion mechanic' include:

1. One level can be removed by Lesser Retoration.

2. All Levels by Greater Restoration.

It's still a resource cost, but now it becomes a matter for the party to prioritize resources.

3. Recover one level on a short rest by expending a hit die, or, recover on a short rest by rolling a con save and beat DC of 15, (or some other number)

4. Recover on a long rest as many levels as you have Con bonus, minimum of 1. (Or, half your con bonus ... rounded up, min of one).

If you get three levels of exhaustion, you can recover two if you have a Con of 14.

-------------------

I have proposed something like this before, and there may be a few tweeks needed, but I think exhaustion's recovery cost, in resources, is way over the top. It is otherwise a good feature in terms of its slow degradation of physical abilities over time.

We had a campaign with exhaustion featuring and we discovered in play that it is a completely (foul word) mechanic.

[Quietus]

Also a big fan of this one! I might replace it with my damage die solution because it is so clean. I would let dual wielders do it twice.

My own:
Frenzy
As a bonus action, or as part of entering your rage, you can whip yourself into a frenzy.

When you are in a frenzy all of your attacks deal 1d4 extra damage.

This damage increases to 1d6 at level 9 and 1d8 at level 16.

When your frenzy ends, you gain one level of exhaustion unless you succeed at a DC 15 Constitution check. This DC increases with 5 for each frenzy after the first. The DC resets to 15 when you take a short rest.

Relentless
Beginning at 6th level, you can shake off exhaustion that would bring anyone else to their knees. As part of taking a short or a long rest, you can roll a DC 15 Constitution Save to remove a level of Exhaustion. If you succeed and have more levels of exhaustion, you can roll again. The DC increases with 5 for each additional level of Exhaustion you attempt to remove this way.


Thank you! I'm actually really proud of that idea, and I'm glad someone likes it.

My thoughts on your idea - 1d4 extra damage isn't even that much. Even with it scaling, I don't think I'd bother with the exhaustion levels. It's a solid bump, but not overpowering. Remember that Zealot gets 1d6+half level, in a better damage type. If I was just going for adding damage, I would probably go with giving the berserker either double weapon damage - so a greataxe is 2d12, two shortswords/handaxes are 2d6 each (okay, writing it out that FEELS really strong, definitely needs math applied to see how broken this is), or I would just give them straight up double their Rage bonus damage. The latter would definitely encourage more two weapon fighting, since it applies to every attack.

[djreynolds]

Just make frenzy better

Make it worth one level of exhaustion

A free BA attack for 9 rounds isn't much anyhow.

I like the level of exhaustion... its different. Just make frenzy awesome instead

So lets fit this in with the berserker

1. all attacks do max damage (too strong)

2. reckless attack does not give enemy attackers advantage while frenzying

3. how about "everyone" must roll vs a barbarian's DC (Strength mod + proficiency+8) or cower

My point is ......... this the only barbarian who can frenzy... it needs to leap off the page. It needs to be this barbarian's defining attribute.

You're the only barbarian who can frenzy... it needs to be terrifying and awesome

[Segev]

The trouble with exhaustion is that it makes it, basically, a 1/day ability, and worse, it's a "save for the end of the day" ability, because exhaustion is so punishing.

[micahaphone]

Just make frenzy better

Make it worth one level of exhaustion

A free BA attack for 9 rounds isn't much anyhow.

I like the level of exhaustion... its different. Just make frenzy awesome instead

So lets fit this in with the berserker

1. all attacks do max damage (too strong)

2. reckless attack does not give enemy attackers advantage while frenzying

3. how about "everyone" must roll vs a barbarian's DC (Strength mod + proficiency+8) or cower

My point is ......... this the only barbarian who can frenzy... it needs to leap off the page. It needs to be this barbarian's defining attribute.

You're the only barbarian who can frenzy... it needs to be terrifying and awesome

Any attack that connects is a crit?

[heavyfuel]

Any attack that connects is a crit?

Could work. An average of 6.5 more damage per hit for the Greataxe wielding Barbarian.

[HappyDaze]

Just make frenzy better

Make it worth one level of exhaustion

A free BA attack for 9 rounds isn't much anyhow.

I like the level of exhaustion... its different. Just make frenzy awesome instead


No! This will just push the game even more toward fewer encounters per day. The game already has a terrible reputation for being difficult to balance around encounters, and doing this just means that a berserker likely just rips up and trows away one of the too few encounters that many people have per long rest.

[djreynolds]

But it's frenzy my friends.

Right now it's worse than PAM.

IMO mindless fury was the equalizer.

I... 100% get "not" promoting 1 encounter a day as HappyDaze says. 100%

I'm just looking at this problem from every angle.

Does mindless rage (immunity) make up for frenzy?

IMO wolf's and bears 3rd level perks are the best.

It's a fantastic discussion though... perhaps the forum members should be allowed to collectively work on 6E.

[Segev]

When raging, a Berserker may make an attack as a bonus action, and is immune to the effects of Exhaustion (though it does not remove any levels thereof). If he would be killed or knocked unconscious for any reason, he may take a level of Exhaustion to negate the effect causing it.

[MrStabby]

I think I am in the camp of not fixing it.

I kind of think the option is thematically redundant. On the one hand you have the barbarian that gets really angry. On the other hand the one that gets really really angry. It just doesn't feel like a distinction worth preserving.

If effort were to go into selecting and balancing class abilities for a barbarian subclass, I would prefer it if WoTC just dropped the option and focussed on something new.

[Civis Mundi]

When raging, a Berserker may make an attack as a bonus action, and is immune to the effects of Exhaustion (though it does not remove any levels thereof). If he would be killed or knocked unconscious for any reason, he may take a level of Exhaustion to negate the effect causing it.

I would adopt this, added onto my previous house rule (relieve 1 level/short rest, all levels/long rest). I might make it closer to Relentless Endurance--if brought to 0, you may remain at 1 and take on level of exhaustion. You still can't take more than 6 levels, but it won't kill you until your rage ends.

[ftafp]

While not a fix for the Berserker, the Zombie monster race from the DMG are well suited to the subclass as it's immune to Exhaustion and boosts your main stats while laying the penalties on your dump stats. There's still the issue of being a tank immune to cure wounds and healing word, but there are plenty of other spells, items and effects like goodberry and potions of healing that can still restore your hp

[djreynolds]

I think I am in the camp of not fixing it.

I kind of think the option is thematically redundant. On the one hand you have the barbarian that gets really angry. On the other hand the one that gets really really angry. It just doesn't feel like a distinction worth preserving.

If effort were to go into selecting and balancing class abilities for a barbarian subclass, I would prefer it if WoTC just dropped the option and focussed on something new.

I kinda agree here.

It almost feels like frenzy and mindless rage and retaliation should've been powers all barbarians possessed.

No to go on a rant but a few subclasses shouldn't be archetypes but just part of the class itself. Cough... champion, beastmaster, open hand monk, thief... could just be folded up into the base classes.

Sorry please don't let's derail the thread which is excellent by the way

[CTurbo]

I really like the save DC roll for exhaustion with it getting incrementally harder each use per day idea.

I also think Frenzy specifically should scale with levels or at the very least have an additional feature that comes on late.

Maybe at level 10 each attack adds your Str(or Con) mod to damage rolls on your turn? Similar to the Blade Pact's level 12 Lifedrinker, the Bladesinger's level 14 Song of Victory, and the Oathbreaker's level 7 aura.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I played a module that had recovery from all levels of exhaustion on a short rest recently. It, uh, actually made it a much more fun and dynamic mechanic than usual. To the point that I'm considering using it going forward.

It lets me slap the party with exhaustion for overexerting themselves/failing at things regularly, without terrifying them into seeking early long rests or greater restoration. Players pushed it, but not too hard.

As others have mentioned, it also coincidentally fixes the Berserker. But I'm seeing that it's a good idea in general, for everyone.

[Dienekes]

I think I am in the camp of not fixing it.

I kind of think the option is thematically redundant. On the one hand you have the barbarian that gets really angry. On the other hand the one that gets really really angry. It just doesn't feel like a distinction worth preserving.

If effort were to go into selecting and balancing class abilities for a barbarian subclass, I would prefer it if WoTC just dropped the option and focussed on something new.

I disagree a bit. The issue is that the other subclasses force the Barbarian into paths they might not want. They cause storms, are surrounded by spirits, worship animals, or kick arse for the lord. Which are all fine, but there should be a subclass for those who want to just play a foaming at the mouth berserk, a Conan or a Logan Ninefingers. Honestly, Barbarian is about even with the Paladin in that their class is already pretty fleshed out in narrative from the get go. It’s not like Fighter which is a blank slate of nothing. It’s ok to have a subclass for those who want to delve deeper into that archetype rather than expanding out.

[Segev]

I disagree a bit. The issue is that the other subclasses force the Barbarian into paths they might not want. They cause storms, are surrounded by spirits, worship animals, or kick arse for the lord. Which are all fine, but there should be a subclass for those who want to just play a foaming at the mouth berserk, a Conan or a Logan Ninefingers. Honestly, Barbarian is about even with the Paladin in that their class is already pretty fleshed out in narrative from the get go. It’s not like Fighter which is a blank slate of nothing. It’s ok to have a subclass for those who want to delve deeper into that archetype rather than expanding out.

Very good point about the Berserker being the "straight barbarian" barbarian subclass.

[Skylivedk]

I wouldn’t. It’s okay for the relative value of subclass options to vary based on optional rules in play. Arguably there are too sources that give a bonus action attack, but without polearm master and other feats the benefit of the berserker (a bonus action attack that doesn’t stipulate what you use your action on, usable once/day with mostly no downside but if necessary more than once) is more significant
I personally don't care in the slightest for balancing around the game without feats. I wished WotC had just made an intro version of the game and that was it.


I kinda agree here.

It almost feels like frenzy and mindless rage and retaliation should've been powers all barbarians possessed.

No to go on a rant but a few subclasses shouldn't be archetypes but just part of the class itself. Cough... champion, beastmaster, open hand monk, thief... could just be folded up into the base classes.

Sorry please don't let's derail the thread which is excellent by the way
Funny you say that. In my house rules:
- champion has been blended with PDK into a warlord class
- Beast master is rewritten (closer to the revised ranger version)
- open hand monk survived
- Thief was added to all rogue subclasses and removed as a normal subclass


Thank you! I'm actually really proud of that idea, and I'm glad someone likes it.

My thoughts on your idea - 1d4 extra damage isn't even that much. Even with it scaling, I don't think I'd bother with the exhaustion levels. It's a solid bump, but not overpowering. Remember that Zealot gets 1d6+half level, in a better damage type. If I was just going for adding damage, I would probably go with giving the berserker either double weapon damage - so a greataxe is 2d12, two shortswords/handaxes are 2d6 each (okay, writing it out that FEELS really strong, definitely needs math applied to see how broken this is), or I would just give them straight up double their Rage bonus damage. The latter would definitely encourage more two weapon fighting, since it applies to every attack.

A)
Thank you!
B)
Doubling the Rage bonus did we than what I suggested. I've quite exactly chosen to take the die size that matches the rage bonus, but in die form so it will get a bonus from critical hits
C)
Your solution with doubling weapon damage is way too dip-friendly.
D)
The zealot damage is once per turn - important for comparison, but it might mean you are utterly right as well in the game I propose being too small... Even though it does seem to at least be exactly the same at level 20, if you have a bonus action attack (1d6+10 = 13,5 = 3d8). At 12 (halfway with 3 rage damage), the zealot is at 9,5 and my frenzy is at 10,5 (with 3 attacks).



Could work. An average of 6.5 more damage per hit for the Greataxe wielding Barbarian.
Wouldn't it be way more with brutal critical in play?

[Quietus]

A)
Thank you!
B)
Doubling the Rage bonus did we than what I suggested. I've quite exactly chosen to take the die size that matches the rage bonus, but in die form so it will get a bonus from critical hits
C)
Your solution with doubling weapon damage is way too dip-friendly.
D)
The zealot damage is once per turn - important for comparison, but it might mean you are utterly right as well in the game I propose being too small... Even though it does seem to at least be exactly the same at level 20, if you have a bonus action attack (1d6+10 = 13,5 = 3d8). At 12 (halfway with 3 rage damage), the zealot is at 9,5 and my frenzy is at 10,5 (with 3 attacks).

All fair points. In particular, I didn't think about the effect on multiclassing it would have to add weapon dice the way I'd considered. As to the dice for crit/double rage damage thing, that's honestly probably just a symptom of my preference for reliability. I get where that's coming from.




Wouldn't it be way more with brutal critical in play?

Brutal Critical only works off of your weapon damage die, and explicitly only adds X number of dice depending on how many levels of brutal critical you have. Your rage bonus damage is just that - damage dice from rage. Brutal Critical would ignore those and add a die based on your weapon, nothing extra. If you wanted your extra damage die to be affected by brutal critical, you'd have to give it language, or a separate subclass ability, that does so.

[Zhorn]

Very good point about the Berserker being the "straight barbarian" barbarian subclass.
And after thinking that over I'm now tempted to just roll Berserker into the baseline class abilities for Barbarian as a house rule.

"All Barbarian's will gain the Berserker's features in addition to the subclass of their choice. All features from the Berserker only work while in a Frenzy"

From there I'm leaving Exhaustion cost as is. Make the whole thing into a next-level Reckless Attack.
Next campaign I run, I'll see how it goes.

[MrStabby]

And after thinking that over I'm now tempted to just roll Berserker into the baseline class abilities for Barbarian as a house rule.

"All Barbarian's will gain the Berserker's features in addition to the subclass of their choice. All features from the Berserker only work while in a Frenzy"

From there I'm leaving Exhaustion cost as is. Make the whole thing into a next-level Reckless Attack.
Next campaign I run, I'll see how it goes.

I might be tempted to level gat the free abilities a bit. I think that the barbarian is fine in the early levels but bolstering the goodies from level 6 onwards and especially the high levels will keep it attractive.

[Dienekes]

And after thinking that over I'm now tempted to just roll Berserker into the baseline class abilities for Barbarian as a house rule.

"All Barbarian's will gain the Berserker's features in addition to the subclass of their choice. All features from the Berserker only work while in a Frenzy"

From there I'm leaving Exhaustion cost as is. Make the whole thing into a next-level Reckless Attack.
Next campaign I run, I'll see how it goes.

This may work for you and your group. But I still dislike the idea of forcing the barbarian player into the other subclasses.

And I have some data for why it wouldn’t work for all.

I am running a game for brand new players. They’ve just hit level 3 and yesterday I went through the Barbarian subclasses with the barb. And the only one he wanted to play was the one without the other trappings. He did not want to draw powers from animals or religion or whatever else. He wanted to be a viking style ber-sekr. And the Berserker fits that best.

Now all that said, your way does give more base options to the Barbarian player. And I’m curious how that works for them. I can definitely see Frenzy getting used a few times early on for big fights. But once they get Bonus Action attack through other means mid to late game. I doubt they’ll use it. They have to use foresight to realize they’re going to be mind controlled a lot in a fight for Mindless Rage. I doubt anyone is going to take the penalty just to use Intimidating Presence. And while Retaliation is great that’s a big level gap to get it.

But I’m interested to hear how it goes.

[Zhorn]

I might be tempted to level gat the free abilities a bit. I think that the barbarian is fine in the early levels but bolstering the goodies from level 6 onwards and especially the high levels will keep it attractive.

Being that the biggest hurdle for the Berserker was that the Exhaustion component of Frenzy was too steep a price compared to the gains it offered when compared to the gains from other subclasses without said cost, or even getting a similar benefit from universally accessible methods (TWF, PAM), I don't think there's really a need to level gate any more than it currently already is within the Berserker's current level progression.

In any case, the cost just isn't worth the subclass, but trying to ease off that cost gets into the trickier math of trying to make it good, but not too good compared to the other options (this is how we end up with the power-creep / arms-race). Like Dienekes says, when players have access to other means of bonus action attacking without the cost, they'll opt for that. As a Berserker, that pretty much negates a whole schtick from the class.

This is why I'm leaning in the direction of take a 'fix' from a different direction. Trying to fix Frenzy within Berserker is pretty much asking for a whole subclass overhaul. Well if the subclass is rated so poorly as is, we'll just stop treating it as a subclass. The flavour behind frenzy I still find appealing, and as a mechanic available to ALL barbarians, it is not longer competing against other subclasses, making the question shift from "how can frenzy compete" to "when is it worth using a frenzy" in the same way people ask "when is it worth using a reckless attack".

[GentlemanVoodoo]

I have 2 4 ideas.

Frenzy

Option #1
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage, when you take the Attack action on your turn, you can make one additional attack as part of that action. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion.

or

Option #2
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, make a Con save(DC15). On a fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. The save DC increases by 5 for each subsequent time you Frenzy before a Long rest.

or

Option #3
Both 1 + 2


My thoughts-
I do like keeping Exhaustion in there, but it's SO brutal of a set back, I figured Frenzy either needs to be more powerful, or you need to be able to do it a bit more often without suffering such harsh effects. Moving the extra attack to the Attack action instead of the Bonus action to me is much stronger of a feature. I have houseruled in the past that the Berserker gets one free Frenzy a day before Exhaustion kicks in almost assuring at least one good use of it a day, so making the Barb make a save at the end is a similar effect. I do think combining the two is a bit too strong. I do think that Frenzy in specific should get a higher level ability too and I think something similar to the Champion's Survivor feature, but different. How about....

Option #4
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion.
At level 14, while you are in a Frenzy, anytime you reduce a creature to 0 hit points, you regain hit points equal to your Con modifier up to your hit point maximum.

Intead of exhaustion have you considered just having the barbarian suffer the stunned status condition for some duration of time and unable to use frenzy again until unstunned? By being stunned, there is already a grouping of some bad effects that are on pair trade off wise for being a flurry of attacks. If anything you could just have this as a mandatory and uncurable effect for at least a turn or something like 1d4 turns. In this way exhaustion is removed yet something bad happens to the barbarian for pushing themselves to their limits physically but it is only a short duration.

[Hal]

I'm playing in a dungeon crawl, and keeping exhaustion in any form would still make Frenzy a non-starter. You can't always take a short rest after combat due to unsafe conditions or wandering monsters, and disadvantage on ability checks means you basically don't participate in the game until the exhaustion is gone. People already complain that Barbarians don't have much going on besides combat abilities; why punish that further?


Intead of exhaustion have you considered just having the barbarian suffer the stunned status condition for some duration of time and unable to use frenzy again until unstunned? By being stunned, there is already a grouping of some bad effects that are on pair trade off wise for being a flurry of attacks. If anything you could just have this as a mandatory and uncurable effect for at least a turn or something like 1d4 turns. In this way exhaustion is removed yet something bad happens to the barbarian for pushing themselves to their limits physically but it is only a short duration.

This approximates my preferred solution: When frenzy ends, you're affected as if the Haste spell just ended (cannot move or take actions until after your next turn.) You're still "exhausted" after it ends, but it's a short penalty that isn't overly punitive.

[Nagog]

I would give them the option to remove this form of exhaustion on a short rest.

[djreynolds]

If this is never fixed and we only homebrew....
Where do you stand.?

I personally feel mindless rage is huge. It is immunity to fear and charm, and unless you're facing a lot of hold person.... it's an incredible ability.

It means not needing a 10th level paladin and standing 10ft from her/him.

It means no resilient wisdom.

And it means you can afford to put something in charisma to take at least some help with intimidating presence.

Just asking?

[Arkhios]

Honestly, I haven't heard any talk about "hate" towards Berserker.

In fact, I think all the flak they might be getting is because people assume Path of the Berserker to be the 5th edition iteration of the notorious Frenzied Berserker from 3rd edition (a prestige class that would lose themselves into frenzy and have a mindless bloodlust out of control, attacking anyone on sight until there's nothing to attack, or until they die or fall unconscious).

I don't think it is, to be entirely honest. In fact, I think Path of the Berserker is an amalgam of the prestige class and the 3.5th edition Unearthed Arcana Alternate Class Feature for Rage: Whirling Frenzy.
While the normal Rage increased your Strength and Constitution scores by 4 each during rage, and gave you bonus on Will saves (analogous to Wisdom saves), at the cost of taking a -2 penalty to AC, and becoming unable to maintain concentration and/or cast spells, Whirling Frenzy instead only increased the barbarian's strength by 4, gave them a small bonus to AC (and reflex saves; analogous to Dex saves) to off-set the AC penalty from raging, and most importantly, one bonus attack per turn at their best attack bonus. IIRC, this ACF turned out very popular in 3.5 and would make sense why they felt it could work as the "default" option for barbarians in 5th edition. (FYI, In SRD, Berserker is the default barbarian sub-class).

With that out of the way, if we were to further emphasize the Frenzied Berserker aspect of this subclass, I'd say Frenzy should deal a bit more damage than normal rage (maybe one or two points more than the standard rage), and have a real risk to lose control of your character, as could happen with Frenzied Berserker, as explained above.

[Kyutaru]

In fact, I think all the flak they might be getting is because people assume Path of the Berserker to be the 5th edition iteration of the notorious Frenzied Berserker from 3rd edition (a prestige class that would lose themselves into frenzy and have a mindless bloodlust out of control, attacking anyone on sight until there's nothing to attack, or until they die or fall unconscious).
Since 5E is more like a return to 2E's simplicity and power curve, I think it's closest to the original Berserker kit found in AD&D's The Complete Fighter's Handbook. Fighters actually had the ability to rage before even barbarians did.

[Arkhios]

Since 5E is more like a return to 2E's simplicity and power curve, I think it's closest to the original Berserker kit found in AD&D's The Complete Fighter's Handbook. Fighters actually had the ability to rage before even barbarians did.

I disagree. AD&D as the basis would make more sense if barbarian Berserker was a Fighter subclass.

Besides, while true that 5e is like a return to 2e simplicity and power curve, it's decidedly not ignoring 3rd and 4th editions either. Rather, since D&D Next playtest period, the goal has been to incorporate the best and/or most popular features from throughout the game's history.

Since the game includes Barbarian as a class, it makes more sense that Berserker is part of Barbarian's chassis rather than Fighter's.

That said, I would love to see an alternative Berserker as a Fighter's Archetype, more analogous to the AD&D Kit.

[Quietus]

This is why I'm leaning in the direction of take a 'fix' from a different direction. Trying to fix Frenzy within Berserker is pretty much asking for a whole subclass overhaul. Well if the subclass is rated so poorly as is, we'll just stop treating it as a subclass. The flavour behind frenzy I still find appealing, and as a mechanic available to ALL barbarians, it is not longer competing against other subclasses, making the question shift from "how can frenzy compete" to "when is it worth using a frenzy" in the same way people ask "when is it worth using a reckless attack".

I would disagree that it requires a full overhaul. I mentioned this as an option very early in the thread and it didn't catch much traction, not sure if it's because people didn't favor this idea, or just because the thread moved too quickly for it to get noticed.

My fix : Scrap the bonus action attack AND the exhaustion. Replace both with "When you're in Rage, once per round you may immediately re-roll one missed attack roll, using all the same modifiers that were used on the original roll". Bear totem is your reliable defense option, this makes berserker your reliable offense option. It doesn't have any heavy supernatural elements, fits as a decent baseline barbarian subclass. And all of the other subclass abilities are fine, I'd leave them all right where they are.

[micahaphone]

I would disagree that it requires a full overhaul. I mentioned this as an option very early in the thread and it didn't catch much traction, not sure if it's because people didn't favor this idea, or just because the thread moved too quickly for it to get noticed.

My fix : Scrap the bonus action attack AND the exhaustion. Replace both with "When you're in Rage, once per round you may immediately re-roll one missed attack roll, using all the same modifiers that were used on the original roll". Bear totem is your reliable defense option, this makes berserker your reliable offense option. It doesn't have any heavy supernatural elements, fits as a decent baseline barbarian subclass. And all of the other subclass abilities are fine, I'd leave them all right where they are.


Barbarian already has reckless attack to help with hitting, and your change still leaves Zealot as the better offensive option.

[Dienekes]

I would disagree that it requires a full overhaul. I mentioned this as an option very early in the thread and it didn't catch much traction, not sure if it's because people didn't favor this idea, or just because the thread moved too quickly for it to get noticed.

My fix : Scrap the bonus action attack AND the exhaustion. Replace both with "When you're in Rage, once per round you may immediately re-roll one missed attack roll, using all the same modifiers that were used on the original roll". Bear totem is your reliable defense option, this makes berserker your reliable offense option. It doesn't have any heavy supernatural elements, fits as a decent baseline barbarian subclass. And all of the other subclass abilities are fine, I'd leave them all right where they are.

I personally agree with ditching the bonus action and the exhaustion. I’ll admit I’m not a huge fan of the reroll. Partially because Reckless Attack already kinda covers that ground. But in truth I tend to push back against the idea of making Barbarians inherently more accurate than other martials. I’ve always thought they should focus more on being the hardest hitters of the bunch. You’re fantasy Hulk. You smash things with your muscles.

But balance-wise I don’t think it’s inherently bad.

[Cybren]

I personally don't care in the slightest for balancing around the game without feats. I wished WotC had just made an intro version of the game and that was it.



It has nothing to do with "balancing around the game without feats", it's simply acknowledging that
1) Feats are an optional rule
2) The relative value of different choices you make varies based on which optional rules are in play.

[Man_Over_Game]

It has nothing to do with "balancing around the game without feats", it's simply acknowledging that
1) Feats are an optional rule
2) The relative value of different choices you make varies based on which optional rules are in play.

I would have really liked it if Feats changed your playstyle into niches and specializations, while the class features set a wide boundary.

So, for example, all Fighters can hit hard, with melee or ranged attacks, and take a hit. Feats would let you focus on individual elements of that formula by emphasizing the niche of those benefits. Use polearms for even more reach/denial, use giant weapons for massive damage and killing big foes, use ranged attacks to lower the target's speed (and effectively creating more distance) by knocking them prone, etc.

The same could be done for casting, too. Have the Elemental Adept feat make you able to play as a "Lightning Wild Mage" Sorcerer. Spell Sniper allows you to channel your spells into having a focused effect, taking more resources/time but increasing the Save DC, damage, or range.



They failed in this, because most of the feats are very generalized. Polearm Master isn't used to leverage the value of polearms, it's to create it through extra damage. Crossbow Expert isn't there to leverage the high damage of crossbows against their high reload time, but instead just makes them into generic ranged weapons. Dual Wield doesn't make Light Weapons better, or provide an inherent benefit for wielding two weapons, but instead makes it more generic. Tough directly competes with just taking an ASI for a Constitution buff.

I feel that if a feat and an ASI compete, get rid of the feat. We already have a default, generalist method for growth in 6 areas through ASIs, so why do we need 10 more?

So if ASI's were "Get slightly better at things you're going to be doing almost all of the time", feats should "Get a LOT better at doing specific things that might only be relevant half of the time". There's not really any reason a Feat should be better than an ASI other than circumstance, and "I attack you with a melee weapon" isn't circumstantial.

This has the distinct benefit of only needing Feats when you're sure your players are experienced enough to utilize them, as feats would effectively create artificial difficulty by putting more weight on your players' choices and mistakes. So feats could legitimately be a variant rule as they make the game harder instead of them feeling like a requirement for the game to be interesting (and they currently don't even make the game that much more interesting/diverse, tbh).

[jas61292]

Personally, I love the Berserker, and I feel that often, when I see people trying to "fix" it, they are actually ruining core elements of it. Now, part of this is because I play in a group that bans certain feats, including both Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, and without those two option in play, Berserker is the undisputed king of Barbarian DPS. But I also think there is a ton of value in the Berserker features that gets overlooked.

First and foremost among these is the fact that the bonus action attack granted by frenzy has no prerequisites. I see a lot of "fixes" that change this to an extra attack as part of the attack action, and I think that is a huge nerf. Sure, if you are assuming a game that allows all feats and are assuming that every barbarian will take GWM or PAM (if not both), then yeah, this is often a buff, because it means 4 attacks instead of three. But having an attack untied to the attack action is one of the coolest things about the Berserker. When another barbarian is getting shot by an enemy 50 feet away, they have to either spend their turn (and possibly every subsequent turn) chucking a single javelin, or take the dash action and hope they get hit and thus don't lose their Rage. The Berserker take the Dash action and still gets to whack the enemy with a maul. And that's just one example. Getting effectively half of an attack action (or a whole attack action at levels 3 and 4) as a free use bonus action is amazing. You can dodge and attack if you want to be defensive. Or maybe activate a magic item and still get an attack off. Or if you multiclass, maybe activate some other cool ability. And still attack. The freeness of the bonus action attack is awesome, and taking that away to free up the bonus action is only ever a buff if you assume they are always attacking and always already getting a bonus action attack.

I also think the other non-frenzy abilities are often underrated. Mindless rage is incredible. While raging, which you will be doing all the time in combat, you are immune to the two most common and threatening kinds of Wisdom save effects. Where every internet user will recommend making Wisdom your tertiary stat and possibly taking Resilient Wisdom for every other Martial character, as a Berserker, you can dump is and barely be any worse off. When Fear and Charm are off the table, I am no more scared of Wisdom Saves than I am of Charisma ones.

And speaking of Charisma, Intimidating presence gets a bad rap. In my experience, a lot of people say it is bad because, well, they dumped Charisma and boosted Wisdom. If you actually invest in Charisma, which is very reasonable to do on a Berserker, it is a perfectly fine ability. No worse off than a save based spell from a Ranger, Paladin or any other martial character that casts spells with a different stat than they attack with. And as for the power of the ability itself, I have seen people say it is weak. And while I will hardly call it gamebreakingly powerful or anything, the fact is that it is an ability that can lock down an enemy. Fear gives them disadvantage on their attacks, and they can't move closer to you. That's decent for control. And while some complain it costs an action, you know what you can still do that same turn if you are Frenzying? Whack them with a maul.

Now, I'm not saying that the berserker is perfect or anything. There are some issues, and I would love to implement a few fixes, but I think the needed fixes are relatively minor. First off, I have no problem with Exhaustion, as Fenzy is powerful, and the barbarian is uniquely built to overcome exhaustion. That being said, I think any such penalty should not do as much to effect later combat. So what I would do is, as part of the Frenzy ability, give them the ability to ignore exhaustion while they are raging. Hell, why not just give that ability to the core barbarian itself. That way, they are not going to get worse at attacking or grappling or anything while in a fury, and can more freely use Frenzies, but they still have to be careful in the long run.

I'd also just add that you can make an attack as part of the bonus action used to activate the frenzy. Having to wait a turn to actual gain the advantage does sharply cut into its value.

And honestly... that's about all I would change. I might consider expanding Mindless Rage to include all Wisdom saves, but I already consider it to be one of the best abilities of any Barbarian Subclass, so while I don't mind buffing the Berserker, I hardly thing that is the place they need it.

[AHF]

This approximates my preferred solution: When frenzy ends, you're affected as if the Haste spell just ended (cannot move or take actions until after your next turn.) You're still "exhausted" after it ends, but it's a short penalty that isn't overly punitive.

This deserves some more commentary. I don't have a ton of experience with Barbarians but this treats the third level (and core) feature like a more limited version of Haste which seems pretty fair.

I say a lesser version of haste because you don't get double speed, +2 to AC, enhancement to saves, and your bonus action is limited to attack instead of being usable for Dash, Disengage, Hide or Use an Object. It also is only usable on you (unlike Haste which gives flexibility for the target). No concentration requirement but the usual attack or take damage requirement to maintain rage.

Seems very fair and encourages use of this ability without needing to worry about the exhaustion piece last over multiple combats, etc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally, I love the Berserker, and I feel that often, when I see people trying to "fix" it, they are actually ruining core elements of it. Now, part of this is because I play in a group that bans certain feats, including both Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, and without those two option in play, Berserker is the undisputed king of Barbarian DPS. But I also think there is a ton of value in the Berserker features that gets overlooked. OK, in a featless game, Beserker is a better option?

I also think the other non-frenzy abilities are often underrated. Mindless rage is incredible. While raging, which you will be doing all the time in combat, you are immune to the two most common and threatening kinds of Wisdom save effects. Where every internet user will recommend making Wisdom your tertiary stat and possibly taking Resilient Wisdom for every other Martial character, as a Berserker, you can dump is and barely be any worse off. When it comes on line, yeah.


And speaking of Charisma, Intimidating presence gets a bad rap. In my experience, a lot of people say it is bad because, well, they dumped Charisma and boosted Wisdom. If you actually invest in Charisma, which is very reasonable to do on a Berserker, it is a perfectly fine ability. No worse off than a save based spell from a Ranger, Paladin or any other martial character that casts spells with a different stat than they attack with. And as for the power of the ability itself, I have seen people say it is weak. And while I will hardly call it gamebreakingly powerful or anything, the fact is that it is an ability that can lock down an enemy. Fear gives them disadvantage on their attacks, and they can't move closer to you. That's decent for control. And while some complain it costs an action, you know what you can still do that same turn if you are Frenzying? Whack them with a maul. heh.

[Snails]

Get rid of the exhaustion.

If what you have left is so OMG powerful how dare anyone do that the game is broken forever, then get rid of the ability and do something else. I don't care what the new something is. Whatever cool thing you find appropriate don't punish the player for doing it. Don't make him lose hit points, lose turns, be unable to do stuff, be more vulnerable to enemy attacks. He should never be worse off doing whatever it is he's supposed to be doing other than having spent a resource to do it if it costs some resource allotment of a fanciful name (mana, ki, spell slot, number of times per rest/day, etc.).

I agree.

In the context of the game as it exists, it feels like a silly and out of place nerf. If this mechanic is such a great idea, it makes even more sense for spellcasters who are dangerously taxing their minds and bodies to channel the energies that are seeped through the fabric of the universe.

How about whenever a spellcaster casts a spell of the highest level they are able to cast, they gain a level of Exhaustion. What fun! :yuk:

Furthermore, I think this mechanic grates against the feel of the Barbarian class, which should more straightforward to play than other classes.

But back to your point, yes, a class ability should be a clear positive gain, and the cost of using it now should be (perhaps) not getting to use it when you may need it more later.

If Exhaustion as a tradeoff is a useful mechanic, IMNSHO it is something that should be paid to get an additional boon, and such should be available/applied to to ALL PC classes. And then it will make sense to further develop ways of removing levels of Exhaustion, like paying HD during a Short Rest.

[Segev]

In the context of the game as it exists, it feels like a silly and out of place nerf. If this mechanic is such a great idea, it makes even more sense for spellcasters who are dangerously taxing their minds and bodies to channel the energies that are seeped through the fabric of the universe.

That's making some pretty big assumptions about how magic works. How do you know they're channeling anything through their bodies? Do you get worn out when driving a car, or playing a video game, or putting a drink in the refrigerator? Does a king get tired when ordering his servants to set his lunch out for him on the balcony?

[N810]

Personally, I love the Berserker, and I feel that often, when I see people trying to "fix" it, they are actually ruining core elements of it. Now, part of this is because I play in a group that bans certain feats, including both Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, and without those two option in play, Berserker is the undisputed king of Barbarian DPS. But I also think there is a ton of value in the Berserker features that gets overlooked.

ARGEED

First and foremost among these is the fact that the bonus action attack granted by frenzy has no prerequisites. I see a lot of "fixes" that change this to an extra attack as part of the attack action, and I think that is a huge nerf. Sure, if you are assuming a game that allows all feats and are assuming that every barbarian will take GWM or PAM (if not both), then yeah, this is often a buff, because it means 4 attacks instead of three. But having an attack untied to the attack action is one of the coolest things about the Berserker. When another barbarian is getting shot by an enemy 50 feet away, they have to either spend their turn (and possibly every subsequent turn) chucking a single javelin, or take the dash action and hope they get hit and thus don't lose their Rage. The Berserker take the Dash action and still gets to whack the enemy with a maul. And that's just one example. Getting effectively half of an attack action (or a whole attack action at levels 3 and 4) as a free use bonus action is amazing. You can dodge and attack if you want to be defensive. Or maybe activate a magic item and still get an attack off. Or if you multiclass, maybe activate some other cool ability. And still attack. The freeness of the bonus action attack is awesome, and taking that away to free up the bonus action is only ever a buff if you assume they are always attacking and always already getting a bonus action attack.

YEP

I also think the other non-frenzy abilities are often underrated. Mindless rage is incredible. While raging, which you will be doing all the time in combat, you are immune to the two most common and threatening kinds of Wisdom save effects. Where every internet user will recommend making Wisdom your tertiary stat and possibly taking Resilient Wisdom for every other Martial character, as a Berserker, you can dump is and barely be any worse off. When Fear and Charm are off the table, I am no more scared of Wisdom Saves than I am of Charisma ones.

And speaking of Charisma, Intimidating presence gets a bad rap. In my experience, a lot of people say it is bad because, well, they dumped Charisma and boosted Wisdom. If you actually invest in Charisma, which is very reasonable to do on a Berserker, it is a perfectly fine ability. No worse off than a save based spell from a Ranger, Paladin or any other martial character that casts spells with a different stat than they attack with. And as for the power of the ability itself, I have seen people say it is weak. And while I will hardly call it gamebreakingly powerful or anything, the fact is that it is an ability that can lock down an enemy. Fear gives them disadvantage on their attacks, and they can't move closer to you. That's decent for control. And while some complain it costs an action, you know what you can still do that same turn if you are Frenzying? Whack them with a maul.

I FIND THAT I WATED TO USE IT WHEN I WASN'T FRENZING (MERELY RAGEING),
BUT THEN I WOULD BE RISKING LOOSING MY RAGE IF I WASN'T HIT BY THE ENEMY WHO WAS NOW LIKELY RUNING AWAY FROM ME... :/

Now, I'm not saying that the berserker is perfect or anything. There are some issues, and I would love to implement a few fixes, but I think the needed fixes are relatively minor. First off, I have no problem with Exhaustion, as Fenzy is powerful, and the barbarian is uniquely built to overcome exhaustion. That being said, I think any such penalty should not do as much to effect later combat. So what I would do is, as part of the Frenzy ability, give them the ability to ignore exhaustion while they are raging. Hell, why not just give that ability to the core barbarian itself. That way, they are not going to get worse at attacking or grappling or anything while in a fury, and can more freely use Frenzies, but they still have to be careful in the long run.

I'd also just add that you can make an attack as part of the bonus action used to activate the frenzy. Having to wait a turn to actual gain the advantage does sharply cut into its value.

OR HAVE IT AS A ACTIVATION AS A FREE ACTION IF YOU ARE ALLREADY RAGEING ?

And honestly... that's about all I would change. I might consider expanding Mindless Rage to include all Wisdom saves, but I already consider it to be one of the best abilities of any Barbarian Subclass, so while I don't mind buffing the Berserker, I hardly thing that is the place they need it.

NOT A BAD IDEA. IT'S ONY A FEW MORE

(REPLIES IN CAPS)

I would also add that removing 1 level of exhaustion (At LVL 3) on a short or long rest would go a long way to fixing exhaustion woes.

[CTurbo]

I wouldn't want an entire class built around it, but I really like having a subclass based on a risk/reward system. The risk just can't outweigh the reward so much as in the case of the printed Berserker. Who knows when I'll be able to play/DM again, but I'm definitely going to revisit making the reward part of the Berserker better.

Somebody mentioned spellcasters and exhaustion. I wouldn't mind seeing the Sorcerer have a subclass with a similar risk/reward setup.

[AHF]

That's making some pretty big assumptions about how magic works. How do you know they're channeling anything through their bodies? Do you get worn out when driving a car, or playing a video game, or putting a drink in the refrigerator? Does a king get tired when ordering his servants to set his lunch out for him on the balcony?

Plenty of precedent for magic users wearing themselves out (or even draining their life force, etc.) by using their magic in literature and other mediums. Since it is all imagination, you can write this however you want. Looking at something like the Dresden Files, he is exhausted and recovering frequently after a big magic moment.

[sithlordnergal]

That's making some pretty big assumptions about how magic works. How do you know they're channeling anything through their bodies? Do you get worn out when driving a car, or playing a video game, or putting a drink in the refrigerator? Does a king get tired when ordering his servants to set his lunch out for him on the balcony?


Actually yes, I do, and I know a few people who do get exhausted doing many of those things. Driving a car can be particularly exhausting, both mentally and physically, despite not doing anything other than sitting in a seat and driving.

Same holds true for my work as a tutor. My job isn't physically difficult. I sit down at a table, and wait for people to come to me with questions. On slow days I'll just hang out on the forum and I get home feeling fine. But if I end up having a lot of difficult questions to help with, I become mentally and, again, physically exhausted.

So there is a biological thing you can pull from to use the rule that casting a spell with your highest level spell slot can give you levels of exhaustion due to mental exhaustion. However, I doubt anyone would implement such a rule because it is a poor idea to do so.

[micahaphone]

The more I'm reading this thread the more I like a Haste-esque stun/daze when your rage drops. The effect is immediate and doesn't stack, and it further ties into someone's previous point that "berserker is the most stereotypical barbarian". Just like Champion fighter or Devotion paladin, it's nothing thematically extra on top of the base barbarian, except now you have even more incentive to not lose your rage.

We'd still have the PHB offering offensive and defensive focused subclasses.

[Civis Mundi]

The more I'm reading this thread the more I like a Haste-esque stun/daze when your rage drops. The effect is immediate and doesn't stack, and it further ties into someone's previous point that "berserker is the most stereotypical barbarian". Just like Champion fighter or Devotion paladin, it's nothing thematically extra on top of the base barbarian, except now you have even more incentive to not lose your rage.

We'd still have the PHB offering offensive and defensive focused subclasses.

I too could support the haste option. I also wouldn't mind altering or switching out Intimidating Presence, likely the latter. Even if you were to boost your CHA just to use it, at what cost? Barbarians are MAD enough as is.

[micahaphone]

I too could support the haste option. I also wouldn't mind altering or switching out Intimidating Presence, likely the latter. Even if you were to boost your CHA just to use it, at what cost? Barbarians are MAD enough as is.


Ah, but Mindless Rage means you only have to raise 4/6 of your stats, not 5/6, so it's okay!

[Snails]

That's making some pretty big assumptions about how magic works. How do you know they're channeling anything through their bodies? Do you get worn out when driving a car, or playing a video game, or putting a drink in the refrigerator? Does a king get tired when ordering his servants to set his lunch out for him on the balcony?

Make such assumptions or do not make such assumptions. Either way works just fine for me. But let's just make those design choices consistently across all classes/paths. Inconsistency in the manner we have here is, frankly, foolishness, as it greatly exacerbates already touchy issues around the short/long rest cycle with peculiar outlier mechanics.

The Frenzy is supposed to be a the top shelf ability of a specific PC class path. It requires neither more nor less "assumptions" about why that kind of PC action should (or should not) cause Exhaustion than any other class path needs "assumptions" about why their top shelf ability needs (or does not need) to cause Exhaustion.

I did understand that if I suggested such consequences for general spellcasters the reaction would strong and immediate, ranging somewhere between "Not fun!" to outright going ape****. I read the tone of your response as supporting my expectations. If some semblance of consistency in applying Exhaustion mechanics is so manifestly gawdawful in the general case, that is pretty strong circumstantial evidence it is an inauspicious approach in the Barbarian's case, too.

[FabulousFizban]

What, do you work for wizards (of the coast) or something?

[micahaphone]

Of what people have suggested so far I like the haste option the best.

Another option would be:
When your rage ends, you suffer one additional level of exhaustion for the next hour.

This would let the player potentially stack up a few levels of exhaustion if you had some stacked encounters. But you aren't crippled into taking multiple short rests or a long rest to stay competitive.

I also like that. It's a nice middle ground of seriously exhausting yourself (fitting the fantasy), while not debilitating yourself for the rest of the day/dungeon/week.

[Snails]

This would let the player potentially stack up a few levels of exhaustion if you had some stacked encounters. But you aren't crippled into taking multiple short rests or a long rest to stay competitive.

I like that, too. It makes it reasonable for a PC to indulge in multiple levels of Exhaustion under certain circumstances.

My biggest personal problem with the original rules is not even the power/balance issue, but the metagame aspect of 3+ levels Exhaustion on my PC imposing annoyance on the other players at the table, for the next few days of in game time.

But a debilitating effect that the party must work around on a more temporary basis seems like an attractive compromise. For the party to make accommodations occasionally could feel more like a good thing.

[djreynolds]

In everyone's experience here, how resource expensive is needing to cast greater restoration on your berserker ally?

What if you could use frenzy and got rid of the exhaustion on a short rest but couldn't otherwise benefit from a short rest (throw out dwarven resilience), no hit die spent for HP, etc?

Your so exhausted after this that short rest doesn't do anything but take away that 1 level of exhaustion.

[Skylivedk]

I would disagree that it requires a full overhaul. I mentioned this as an option very early in the thread and it didn't catch much traction, not sure if it's because people didn't favor this idea, or just because the thread moved too quickly for it to get noticed.

My fix : Scrap the bonus action attack AND the exhaustion. Replace both with "When you're in Rage, once per round you may immediately re-roll one missed attack roll, using all the same modifiers that were used on the original roll". Bear totem is your reliable defense option, this makes berserker your reliable offense option. It doesn't have any heavy supernatural elements, fits as a decent baseline barbarian subclass. And all of the other subclass abilities are fine, I'd leave them all right where they are.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this solution as one I liked and might implement except I'd give two rerolls to dual wielders.


It has nothing to do with "balancing around the game without feats", it's simply acknowledging that
1) Feats are an optional rule
2) The relative value of different choices you make varies based on which optional rules are in play.
Yes and my point was that since I never play without feats and I don't plan on doing so, choices that are (maybe) only relatively strong without feats are just bad choices in magic elf game and hence need a redesign.


Personally, I love the Berserker, and I feel that often, when I see people trying to "fix" it, they are actually ruining core elements of it. Now, part of this is because I play in a group that bans certain feats, including both Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, and without those two option in play, Berserker is the undisputed king of Barbarian DPS. But I also think there is a ton of value in the Berserker features that gets overlooked.
And for those of us who play with feats and/or want dual wielding berserkers to be viable, it's not really a good subclass. I don't see how the berserker beats a battle master in tier 3, but that's a whole nother discussion :)



First and foremost among these is the fact that the bonus action attack granted by frenzy has no prerequisites. I see a lot of "fixes" that change this to an extra attack as part of the attack action, and I think that is a huge nerf. Sure, if you are assuming a game that allows all feats and are assuming that every barbarian will take GWM or PAM (if not both), then yeah, this is often a buff, because it means 4 attacks instead of three. But having an attack untied to the attack action is one of the coolest things about the Berserker. When another barbarian is getting shot by an enemy 50 feet away, they have to either spend their turn (and possibly every subsequent turn) chucking a single javelin, or take the dash action and hope they get hit and thus don't lose their Rage. The Berserker take the Dash action and still gets to whack the enemy with a maul. And that's just one example. Getting effectively half of an attack action (or a whole attack action at levels 3 and 4) as a free use bonus action is amazing. You can dodge and attack if you want to be defensive. Or maybe activate a magic item and still get an attack off. Or if you multiclass, maybe activate some other cool ability. And still attack. The freeness of the bonus action attack is awesome, and taking that away to free up the bonus action is only ever a buff if you assume they are always attacking and always already getting a bonus action attack.
That indeed does sound cool. All Martials can use a bonus action to attack after using an action to dash in my games (and they get a bonus to damage equalling their proficiency modifier). We made that house rule to indirectly nerf ranged combat and simulate the extra power from a charge.



I also think the other non-frenzy abilities are often underrated. Mindless rage is incredible. While raging, which you will be doing all the time in combat, you are immune to the two most common and threatening kinds of Wisdom save effects. Where every internet user will recommend making Wisdom your tertiary stat and possibly taking Resilient Wisdom for every other Martial character, as a Berserker, you can dump is and barely be any worse off. When Fear and Charm are off the table, I am no more scared of Wisdom Saves than I am of Charisma ones.
Mindless Rage is great, agreed. I don't think anything else has been claimed in this thread.



And speaking of Charisma, Intimidating presence gets a bad rap. In my experience, a lot of people say it is bad because, well, they dumped Charisma and boosted Wisdom. If you actually invest in Charisma, which is very reasonable to do on a Berserker, it is a perfectly fine ability. No worse off than a save based spell from a Ranger, Paladin or any other martial character that casts spells with a different stat than they attack with. And as for the power of the ability itself, I have seen people say it is weak. And while I will hardly call it gamebreakingly powerful or anything, the fact is that it is an ability that can lock down an enemy. Fear gives them disadvantage on their attacks, and they can't move closer to you. That's decent for control. And while some complain it costs an action, you know what you can still do that same turn if you are Frenzying? Whack them with a maul.
A single target disable with a 30 feet range at level 10 keyed off your fourth or fifth stat and targeting one of the most common strong stats in MM?

No that's not decent. It's more like indecent exposure. If it were keyed off strength, it wouldn't be close to OP, probably not even considered strong. In a game with feats the opportunity cost is somewhere around 52 DMG: 2 x (10+7+5+4). That would get you a lot closer to every group's favourite debuff: Death.



Now, I'm not saying that the berserker is perfect or anything. There are some issues, and I would love to implement a few fixes, but I think the needed fixes are relatively minor. First off, I have no problem with Exhaustion, as Fenzy is powerful, and the barbarian is uniquely built to overcome exhaustion.
How are they uniquely built to overcome exhaustion?

Taking the point of view of someone playing with feats, can you see why someone could disagree with you?



That being said, I think any such penalty should not do as much to effect later combat. So what I would do is, as part of the Frenzy ability, give them the ability to ignore exhaustion while they are raging. Hell, why not just give that ability to the core barbarian itself. That way, they are not going to get worse at attacking or grappling or anything while in a fury, and can more freely use Frenzies, but they still have to be careful in the long run.
My issue is that you shouldn't be punished or made unviable out of combat for using your main subclass feature in the most played part of the game. It's not like the Barbarian is bloated with out of combat utility as is. Making them bad at skill checks to top it off just seems very unnecessary.



I'd also just add that you can make an attack as part of the bonus action used to activate the frenzy. Having to wait a turn to actual gain the advantage does sharply cut into its value.

And honestly... that's about all I would change. I might consider expanding Mindless Rage to include all Wisdom saves, but I already consider it to be one of the best abilities of any Barbarian Subclass, so while I don't mind buffing the Berserker, I hardly thing that is the place they need it.
I'm happy you enjoy your playing experience. Going by popular opinion and my own experience that is very rare. I naturally respect your right to play your magic elf game however you and your friends like. At the moment you have in no way convinced me that I shouldn't change the Berserker to help my group have more fun.



That's making some pretty big assumptions about how magic works. How do you know they're channeling anything through their bodies? Do you get worn out when driving a car, or playing a video game, or putting a drink in the refrigerator? Does a king get tired when ordering his servants to set his lunch out for him on the balcony?
Of course. Do you know how tiring it is when the coffee is two degrees off or the poached eggs have a grain of caviar too much on them?

Of what people have suggested so far I like the haste option the best.

Another option would be:
When your rage ends, you suffer one additional level of exhaustion for the next hour.

This would let the player potentially stack up a few levels of exhaustion if you had some stacked encounters. But you aren't crippled into taking multiple short rests or a long rest to stay competitive.
Also an option. I love this thread. I'll check with my group what they like the most out of the different options:
- my own
- rerolls
- exhaustion removal at short rest
- temporary exhaustion
- haste like exhaustion

We'll definitely not use the bonus action for the extra attack since I know some of the players want to be able to be able to do Warhammer dwarf Berserkers.


In everyone's experience here, how resource expensive is needing to cast greater restoration on your berserker ally?

What if you could use frenzy and got rid of the exhaustion on a short rest but couldn't otherwise benefit from a short rest (throw out dwarven resilience), no hit die spent for HP, etc?

Your so exhausted after this that short rest doesn't do anything but take away that 1 level of exhaustion.
Exhaustion removal is on our list so far.

Greater Restoration is extremely expensive and will have the poor Berserker become the party's pariah. Now your class becomes someone else's problem and they lose an opportunity to do something cool because they have to cure your hangover.

[AHF]

Make such assumptions or do not make such assumptions. Either way works just fine for me. But let's just make those design choices consistently across all classes/paths. Inconsistency in the manner we have here is, frankly, foolishness, as it greatly exacerbates already touchy issues around the short/long rest cycle with peculiar outlier mechanics.

The Frenzy is supposed to be a the top shelf ability of a specific PC class path. It requires neither more nor less "assumptions" about why that kind of PC action should (or should not) cause Exhaustion than any other class path needs "assumptions" about why their top shelf ability needs (or does not need) to cause Exhaustion.

I did understand that if I suggested such consequences for general spellcasters the reaction would strong and immediate, ranging somewhere between "Not fun!" to outright going ape****. I read the tone of your response as supporting my expectations. If some semblance of consistency in applying Exhaustion mechanics is so manifestly gawdawful in the general case, that is pretty strong circumstantial evidence it is an inauspicious approach in the Barbarian's case, too.

An even more direct comparison is the stress on the body from the haste spell versus frenzy. Haste pushes the body for more yet the superior magic version has less of a drawback and can be done 10x a day if desired for say a 12th level wizard without any cumulative or lasting consequence and still have full use of plenty of remaining spell slots (with arcane recovery and up casting). This is the central feature for a FB but is expected to be used no more than once per day.