MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4

If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:

1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?


Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene [Tower scene - ed] -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.

This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.


Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's first look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?

MitD enjoying the sunshine:

MitD: Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—


Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place


Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:



Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils
Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons
Lawful Good: Archons


Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons
True Neutral: Rilmani
Neutral Good: Guardinals


Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons
Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi
Chaotic Good: Eladrin



Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle
Section 1m: MitD's Species SizeWe know that MitD has not yet reached his adult size, both from MitD's recollection of a much bigger father, and from Oona's comment that he is "so small, but will grow in time". The question, then, is how much bigger we can expect the base species to be. To answer this, size categories as used in D&D must be understood to be a logarithmic scale - each size category is double the height of the previous (length for quadrupeds) - a Medium size creature is up to 8 feet tall, a Large one 16, a Huge one 32, etc. While a child-sized Large or even Huge creature could be argued for (and is the basis for the size restriction in the FBS rules in section 3a), anything beyond has generally been found to be hard to justify. In part due to the general agreement that MitD is a pre-teen (due to his attitudes towards sex & boys-only clubs), which suggests he still has some growth to do before he becomes an adult - but not a huge growth. Humans, for example, grow about 20-30% of their height during adolescence. In D&D size terms, that might push you through one size category, but not through two (which would require more than doubling your height).

A second consideration is strength - larger creatures are, of course, stronger, but children are weaker than full grown adults. In the D&D ruleset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), there exists a strength growth chart for creature size advancement that can serve as a guideline to how strength changes between sizes:

Old SizeNew SizeStrDexConNat. ArmorAC/ Attack
FineDiminutiveSame-2SameSame-4
DiminutiveTiny+2-2SameSame-2
TinySmall+4-2SameSame-1
SmallMedium+4-2+2Same-1
MediumLarge+8-2+4+2-1
LargeHuge+8-2+4+3-1
HugeGargantuan+8Same+4+4-2
GargantuanColossal+8Same+4+5-4

Dragons, as one of the few species with detailed statblocks for multiple stages of development, adhere to the above strength growth, usually splitting it across the age groups that share a size.


Version History

1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047")
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378)
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584536)
14 - MitD XIV: High In Protean (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611229)
15 - MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the far-back position of the stomp suggests he is either bipedal but crouched over, or walks in multiple 3+ legs, with some far behind the head's position.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wrack Earth (PH2)

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does nto see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.


Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:

Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:

The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.


It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:

He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)


Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding tempaltes, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:

No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)


Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."

Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, and has mentioned working on the template chapter, therefore could be his creation, no real way to be sure.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.

Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.

Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).

Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the the stomp with earthquake.

Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).

Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the Tower scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.

Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.

Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.

Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:

The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:

18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon LordAs per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size/strength requirement

Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication

Cons:
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich. Post no longer exists. Closest official version (http://www.athas.org/products/loa) (Legends of Athas beta pdf) Jasdoif could find is gargantuan, and from 2008

Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking (http://img04.deviantart.net/0731/i/2013/107/3/8/glabrezu_by_vegasmike-d622krv.jpg), while not being immediately recognisable as a demon
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.

Cons: Huge by base, would require MitD to be less than half-adult sized
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Despite being capable of speaking any language, Proteans normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same), and is specially an issue while he sleeps, since he likely cannot spend actions to keep a face then (however, see this essay (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) giving plausible story reasons why MitD might want to keep his eyes steady, and he might be faking sleep, or his eyes are not visible at all when he sleeps and the lines drawn are for visual communication only)

Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:

CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list

Cons:

Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport (although it is not clear how he'd know where to send them)
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a science fiction character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one is Large. Black is Huge.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box, and doesn't need for MitD to be much smaller than adult to fit under the umbrella
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.


Xenocrysth (Hyperconscious: Exploration in Psionics)Pros:

Strength 43, High AC, DR
Psionic Teleport, and ability to read minds, which would allow him to pick up the destination from V's mind
Unusual appearance
Telepathic, so surprising one chooses to talk rather than "impart their thoughts directly into the mind of those with whom they wish to communicate"

Cons:
More terrifying than vomit-inducing appearance
No legs to stomp with, but the end of its tail does have a mace-like protrusion that could have been used instead
Gargantuan, although a very small gargantuan by size (30 ft in length, is actually shorter than the minimum). MitD can be argued to be a mere 25% of its standard size (two categories), which even with hefty strength penalties would still make him quite strong
Fluff suggests they are formed from psionic nightmares, rather than through reproduction, but it is vague hearsay, and possibly wrong ("Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Plea’s progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures")
Hard to reconcile with RC's difficulty in establishing if psionic rules are in place in OotS, since a Xenocrysth comes from a psionic manual, although it could be that its Catapsi Leech ability was impeding any other psionic's from properly demonstrating their abilities to RC.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a significant problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has enjoyed being in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light (see section 1a - Published Canon)
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
IT (Stephen King's IT)
Kirby(Kirby)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
Mario (Super Mario Brothers)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (https://web.archive.org/web/20200716232110/https://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
Shadowchild (Digger)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Wile E. Coyote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488) (Looney Tunes)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Continued

Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
ChronotyrynLarge, and can teleport, but has low Str (26), isn't particularly revolting-looking (it's a bird with arms) and not surprising it can speak ("dual voice").
Coco, elCreature from Spanish mythology that hides in the shadows and eats (misbehaving) children. Unclear if he is strong enough, probably can't teleport, and both the shadow hiding and children eating are the opposite of MitD's
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how someone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope or painting the doors). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength below appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric". Can speak multiple languages (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), and thus would not be surprising it talked in common.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidaur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:

High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.

Cons:

Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
PrimusThe supreme modron, has a bunch of powers, including teleport, but is too unique to be MitD (more a position than a creature type), is not particularly revolting, and cannot be mind controlled.
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Tarasque, original mythological version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
No reason why he'd remember a bigger father, or why Oona would expect him to grow.
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Thread Information

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blanket ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.

Voting record

Aug-2013 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15886318&postcount=369); Result: "Size no bigger than huge" & "no immunity to mind control" added to FB requirements
Mar-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23792722&postcount=1036); Result:No change
Aug-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24081940&postcount=920); Result: No change
Jul-2020 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24618514&postcount=9); Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species



Section 4c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore. And it was 14 threads before anyone thought to suggest the xenocrysth, a remarkably good fit that you'd think would've been brought up much sooner.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).
Are templated creatures allowed?Yes and no. You can put in a guess (that will be recorded in Crusher's list of guesses post) with as many templates, class levels, HD boosts, etc as you feel is called for. But when it comes to recording suggestions (section 3), only the base creature, as described in the statblock, is listed - templates are instead classified in section 2d. The reason for this is twofold: first, as per section 2d, templates are a kind of crutch, since they can be used by any creature, so it doesn't so much explain an MitD characteristic as much as declare it is not such, since others of his species can't do what he can.

But more importantly, the number of combinations of template and creature is practically infinite. I don't want to have to insert or maintain entries for species X; species X-template A; species X - template B; species X, templates A & B; etc. - because in the end, the information all those would contain is the entry for species X, and the information under the template entries in 2d. No need to duplicate the information.

[b_jonas]

Section 6: Appearances of the MitD

Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.

#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) Team evil heads into Kraagor's Tomb, apparently not the first time. To know which entrances they've explored, they mark the door with paint. MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
#1189: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) Redcloak sees a lots of doors marked, concludes they've explored them quickly. Oona disagrees, but MitD takes Redcloak's side to move on from that topic and cover his trick.
#1259: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) Lien mentions MitD.
No more occurences until #1259.


Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.

Section 6c: Appearances in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2) and other books by the Giant. (https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) (Book 2)
#194a: unknown (I don't have the book)
War and XPs (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS03.html) (Book 3)
#415a: unknown (I don't have the book)
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2)
Page 28, in the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.

Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.
2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584536).
2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.
2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.
2020-04-29: Copied everything to MitD thread number 14.
2020-06-16: Give more context for #1039. Text was just "MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight." Describe 1189.
2020-07-17: Copied post to to thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One. It is numbered section 6 deliberately, despite that it's posted above section 5 the list of guesses, to keep section numbers stable if reasonably possible.
2020-08-19: Stubs for bonus strip #415a in book 3, and #194a in book 2.
2022-06-12: Add #1259.

Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

[Crusher]

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses
DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocryst 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocryst 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Haunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) - 6/18/20
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocryst > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB - 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocryst 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocryst > Protean 7/21/20
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21


I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, which I will update infrequently. If you have 1 guess, it gets 1 point. 2 ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and 3 ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. 2 non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and 3 non-ordered guesses will go 0.33/0.33/0.33. If you guess more than 3, I'll discard 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a slightly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it.

Last updated 10/21/21

Once again, roughly 15 months have passed since the last scoring update, and there have been minor alterations as most of the new entries were people changing their prior guesses. As usual, the net result has been the Protean modestly extending its commanding lead and everything else mostly staying still.

BUT, there is a new entrant to the list! The Xenocryst was proposed (and quickly added to the FBS list) shortly after the last tally and has now arrived. If the Protean is the dominant leader and the ANB and Slaad are the closest (if still distant) primary challengers, then the Xenocryst has emerged as a strong contender within the pack after them. The Uvuudaum remains at the lead of the secondary pack but the Xenocryst is right at its heels just ahead of the Glabrezu.

The "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates remain in the same places and with the same scores as before. If you took all of the votes for various sorts of Dragons and Deities, and scored them both as single candidates, Dragon would come in a very solid 4th (between Slaad and Uvuudaum) and Deity would be tied with Glabrezu at 6th (or, well, 7th if we include "Dragon").

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 35.5
#2 - ANB - 12.5
#3 - Slaad - 8.5
#X - "Dragon" - 6.0
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Xenocryst - 3.7
#6 - Glabrezu - 3.0
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#7 - Zodar - 2.8

[Ruck]

First, the background to my process:

Preamble

I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

Part 1: The Negative Case

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23810694&postcount=3), every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:


The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:



A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).

Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.)

It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be. (NobleCuriosity has a good post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23634830&postcount=58) further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:


Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.

While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19156714#post19156714)). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html): As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).

My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

Thus, both of the cons of the Protean do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

Part 2: The Positive Case

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, i agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MitD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MitD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesn’t conflict with my art explanation for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

So the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.

Part 3: The Thematic Case

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23690023&postcount=186), to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because "he didn't want to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23782161&postcount=811) and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) seen signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) of his intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD is a literal manifestation of the concept “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) about character choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right/page2&p=19193861#post19193861), I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway). The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are, and what better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.

Conclusion

In conclusion: I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is the best positive fit for all of MITD’s scenes, that it is the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules to work (or the rules of space and time), and that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Voting time
Voting is now closed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24639463&postcount=316)

As promised, we have a bit of consensus-establishing to do, most of it surrounding the FBS. As per last thread's request, the following items are up for a vote:

A) Remove FBS condition 6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box") (* (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24619211&postcount=89))
B) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Large, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species
C) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species Winner (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24639463&postcount=316)
D) Remove Section 3a ("FBS") entirely, and merge all its entries with Section 3e
E) Replace Section 3a ("FBS") with the top 6 from Crusher's list of guesses, or some similar popularity-based selection (e.g. top 6 most voted with Approval Voting, similar to the thread title selection), to be determined later, if this option wins.
F) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Medium, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species
G) Replace FBS Condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles"
H) Replace FBS Condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles that are MitD's size"
I) list xenocrysth in FBS as an exception with size as a con

Z) No change

Voting rules, as per section 4, are:

Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in this post for verification and record keeping.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used. In case of a draw at primary level, I'll look for number of "downballot" votes see which one has more secondary support.
Vote length: Until a few days pass without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. I have marked with an asterisk "(*)" the option someone else will have to do, if they win.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.


Vote recording
I record each vote as the letter it is represented by. If you prefer for multiple options at once (e.g. both X and Y and W), I'll record them as "(X, Y, W)". If you then would be happy with any subset of them, but don't care to list the exact order, I'll record it as "Any subset of (X, Y, W)". If you want anything except X, I'll record it as !X. This effectively represents "I'll vote for anything that doesn't contain this option".

If none of this makes any sense, I encourage you to completely ignore it and just describe in English what you would prefer to happen, and in what order, and I'll transcribe it for you, or ask question to clarify your intent.

Also please do NOT think that there is a maximum number of preferences. If you give me a list of votes longer than I have columns, I'll add extra rows for recording purposes.

Collected votes:


Voter PV 1 PV 2 PV 3 PV 4 PV 5 PV 6 PV 7
Grey WolfZDECH!(A, F)
MartytheBioGuyACB!E
KishBCAZEFD
CrusherCBZ
Sir_NorbertCBIZ!(D,E)
lio45AAny(G,H)C!Z
InvisibleBisonABC
NepondeHCZ
catagent101CDZ
dmc91356CBFIZ
Squire DoodadIAZ
3powersADCBZ
SpirareAF!(D, E, H,Z)
JasdoifAEZD
MalloonEGAny of (A, B, C)Z!(D, E)
Jaxzan ProditorACZB
QwertystopAny of (B, F)HGZ
Doug LampertCIBZ
Charybdis136B
SavilICBAny of (G, H)Z
JoergCIAany of (G, H)ZEB
b_jonas (1)DF(F, I)EBC(C, I)
b_jonas (2)-->ZI(B, I)
LadyEowynA
mjp1050AC!(E,Z)
ArikoHI
ReaderAt2046IBCZ
ThroknorZFGHI!(D,E,C,B,A)
ArkenBronyFBCIDAZ
RuckFZI
Darth PaulAny of (B, H, I)Z
JaziggyAHI
ranagrandeEDAGHZ
VulkosAGHCB
EmanickBCAFIZ
HardcoreE
ScizorHBFIE






Reasons for my own votes:
FBS is causing too many flame wars, to the point it might just not be worth the damage it does to the thread in exchange for the good it does. To be sure, we could move to a completely rule-less popularity list, either crusher's or with some kind of cyclical voting, but I'm wary that that would remove some of the interesting if unlikely candidates (like the Carb-Amorph).

My main issue with replacing the hard size limit with a strength-based one is that it is going to remove too many examples - I think we took a look at it, and was going to drop like half the current list? That's excessive, IMnpHO.

Grey Wolf

[MartytheBioGuy]

I'm in favor of options A, C, or B, in that order.

I'm getting the sense that I'm apparently quite annoying, so I'll also try to control my post impulse a little better. I have poor impulse control in general.

[Kish]

In order, B, C, A, Z, E, F, D.

[Crusher]

I vote C > B > Z

If we do end up getting rid of the FBS list, I'm willing to maintain a periodically refreshing "top vote" list (spoiler alert: the refresh period would almost certainly be the duration of each thread) if need be. However, I like the rule-directed nature of the FBS list and hope it survives. I will admit I value GW_c's sanity above the existence of the FBS list so I guess we'll see how it goes.

[Sir_Norbert]

C > b > z > !(d,e)

[Squire Doodad]

This spot reserved for endless additional puns

[lio45]

F is a no brainer, but isn't that already how FBS Rule 2 works, as per the current phrasing of it? Rule 2 simply asks that any FBS candidate must have a decently convincing explanation for what's observed, it absolutely does not demand physical strength.

I'll make it easy and vote for !Z.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, folks, I think you nailed it with the Protean. Congratulations, after all those years you got it.

[Squire Doodad]

I want to say that the presence of the FBS is good, despite the conflicts around it.
If it makes everyone happy, I'm fine with removing the size restriction to allow for the Xenocrysth to enter and for people to stop fussing about snake biology vs human biology. I still hold that MitD being larger than Huge is implausible, but at some point holding a stance isn't worth it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I want to say that the presence of the FBS is good, despite the conflicts around it.
If it makes everyone happy, I'm fine with removing the size restriction to allow for the Xenocrysth to enter and for people to stop fussing about snake biology vs human biology. I still hold that MitD being larger than Huge is implausible, but at some point holding a stance isn't worth it.

... I honestly not sure what you are voting for. Sounds like Z -> A?

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

I'll vote A, B, C.

[Neponde]

For GW's sake, E.

Then B, then C, then Z.

Superceded by later vote : H > C > Z.

[Squire Doodad]

... I honestly not sure what you are voting for. Sounds like Z -> A?

Grey Wolf

I guess A->Z?
I can't recall off the top of my head what each one would do for the current FBS list (one adds one or two, another reduces it to like 3), so I guess A->Z works.

[lio45]

I'm going to ask again a bit more specifically this time: does anyone know who exactly suggested "F", and what is that person's problem with FBS Rule #2 as currently written? I'm just curious.

edit: Squire Doodad, if you want to lift the size restriction, the way to help that happen is to vote for A, B, C. You can then follow that with Z (or !(D,E) if you want to make sure you specifically vote against eliminating the FBS category).

(Note that Kish, MartyTheBioGuy, and InvisibleBison all did exactly that; they want to remove the upper size limit, but they all disagree with each other on what's the best way to implement what'll replace it.)

[Ruck]

I'm a little unclear what B and C look like, not least of which because I don't remember if Large or Huge is bigger. (We generally agree MITD in comic is Medium, yeah?)

[MartytheBioGuy]

I'm a little unclear what B and C look like, not least of which because I don't remember if Large or Huge is bigger. (We generally agree MITD in comic is Medium, yeah?)

Huge is bigger than large (order goes Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Collossal), and MitD as presented is most logically Medium, but could arguably be fudged to be as big as large, but likely not huge.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I guess A->Z?
I can't recall off the top of my head what each one would do for the current FBS list (one adds one or two, another reduces it to like 3), so I guess A->Z works.

Fine, lets do this.

A: adds who knows how many. Everything that we've ever put in 3e over size that, looked at closely, has enough strength, ugly, unrecognisable, no issues with mind control, etc. I have no idea how many of those there might be lurking in 3e. Which is why, after some reflection, I marked as to be done by not-me.

B: Drops ANB, Glabrezu, HH if it's Huge (someone will need to interpret the CoC statblock for me), and someone will need to check the slaads.

C: by definition, drops none currently there, and allows Xeno-what's-his-name in, possibly a couple of others

D: Drops all of them, by definition

E: more voting! This thread will be just one continuous vote.

F: heck if I know. In fact, I probably should star it.

Z: no changes, thus drops nothing.

(Please do let me know if this changes your vote)


I'm going to ask again a bit more specifically this time: does anyone know who exactly suggested "F", and what is that person's problem with FBS Rule #2 as currently written? I'm just curious.

You did (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24611874). And if you can't answer the second part, not sure anyone can help you.


I'm a little unclear what B and C look like, not least of which because I don't remember if Large or Huge is bigger. (We generally agree MITD in comic is Medium, yeah?)

The names are alphabetical, so Huge is bigger.
(I'm really loving that rule of thumb. It breaks after Medium, but it works great for this thread)

MitD is currently Medium, or possibly a very small Large.

Grey Wolf

[catagent101]

Put me down for C > D > Z

I think C is keeping in spirit with the size restriction as it currently stands, and I can see the argument for getting rid of the FBS list altogether.


I'm a little unclear what B and C look like, not least of which because I don't remember if Large or Huge is bigger. (We generally agree MITD in comic is Medium, yeah?)

Sizes go Colossal > Gargantuan > Huge > Large > Medium. As someone noted in the previous thread, they are in alphabetical order.

[Kish]

I should have E before F, in the unlikely event that it winds up mattering.

[MartytheBioGuy]

E: more voting! This thread will be just one continuous vote.


Oh, with his in mind, I'f like to add !(E) to my vote, if possible.

[dmc91356]

Please put me down as:

C > B > Z

Thanks.

[Kish]

The names are alphabetical, so Huge is bigger.
(I'm really loving that rule of thumb. It breaks after Medium, but it works great for this thread)
Doesn't break until after Tiny, actually. Colossal - Gargantuan - Huge - Large - Medium - Small - Tiny - and then Diminutive which doesn't fit.

[lio45]

You did (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24611874). And if you can't answer the second part, not sure anyone can help you.lol, what an epic-level misunderstanding! The post you have quoted LITERALLY says:
the FBS criterion for the Tower Scene is already written the way I'd have done it!

I'm being perfectly coherent: I said I originally wanted to suggest modifying the STR requirement (in order for Rule #2 to become what I think is the correct and optimal way to put it), then just to make sure, before suggesting any change, I went back to check what the exact actual requirements were, and realized that Rule #2 was already written in what I think is the correct and optimal way to put it. Therefore, when later, some person suggests that Rule #2 isn't already written in what lio45 thinks is the correct and optimal way to put it, clearly, lio45 will react and object to what that person is saying, since he's on record saying he thinks Rule #2 is perfect as it is.

I find it hard to understand how anyone can read the post you quoted and come to any other conclusion than "lio45 obviously doesn't see the point of F, since what F asks for is in fact ALREADY the way Rule #2 is written; therefore Rule #2 as currently written is absolutely correct according to him."

Basically: "I wanted to suggest X, because X is good IMO, but then I double-checked and realized X is already how things are."

And then later: "Huh, someone actually suggested X? So weird (and pointless), given that X is already how things are! And since that's good, no need for a change there. X is the correct way!"

Exactly the behavior you'd expect from someone perfectly logically consistent at all times.



So, in summary: if from my post where I say I don't see what would be the point of F, you went and concluded we should add F to the list of the things to vote on, then obviously, you can remove F whenever you want.





I should have E before F, in the unlikely event that it winds up mattering.F shouldn't even exist, as explained above. (My post against F ended up spawning F on the voting list, somehow.) I guess we can simply remove it, unless that's against the voting rules...? (In which case, no one should vote for it - as I said earlier, if someone does, then I'm really interested in hearing why that person thinks Current FBS Rule #2 isn't perfect as it is!)

(I almost voted !(F, Z) but only picked !Z because it was just cleaner.)


I do agree that E if it passes would generate a lot of voting. I'm really not a fan. (Still think it's marginally better than Z though.)

[3Power]

Missed the first page, but oh well.

This an alternate list of MitD contenders to the FBS/Proposed Ideas list that exists in the OP. This list does not contain any creatures past the cut-off date, nor any non-D&D creatures, including those from call of cthulu, pathfinder, or homebrew. It also does not take Creature Size into account, as it has been suggested on multiple occasions that the MitD is smaller than it usually would be.


:smallsmile: Has wish 1/month
:smallfrown: Can only grant other peoples' wishes and they have to bring suffering to the world.
:smallfrown: No Earthquake
:smallsmile: 31 STR
:smallsmile: Ugly with high charisma.
:smallsmile: Telepathy rules a little unclear, but doesn't appear to be able to speak common.
:smallfrown: Can speak other languages
:smallfrown: Demons don't have children and parents.
:smallfrown: Is an embodiment of pure evil. (Always Chaotic Evil)
:smallfrown: CR weaker than the order, not something Xykon would consider powerful.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Two eyes.
:smallconfused: Not Really beast like
:smallfrown: No wish.
:smallfrown: Access to greater teleport, but only via complicated borrowing of other creatures' extraordinary abilities
:smallconfused: No Earthquake, but does have very high strength.
:smallsmile: 53 STR
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallfrown: By default, doesn't have two eyes. Constantly maintaining the same form goes against fluff and stretches believability.
:smallconfused: Speak and understand all languages, but it's default language is incomprehensible to non-proteans.
:smallsmile: Parents and Children
:smallconfused: Mind reading might explain some knowledge, but no foreshadowing of mind-reading ability.
:smallsmile: Has DR
:smallconfused: Hard to consider beastlike unless it's holding it's form that way.
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile:Always Chaotic Neutral
:smallsmile:36/42 STR
:smallfrown: No wish, but has greater teleport.
:smallfrown: No Earthquake
:smallfrown: Speaks language, including common.
:smallsmile: Can be mind controlled
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallsmile: In oots-verse at least, has parent/children.
:smallfrown: Would have to be very old.
:smallfrown: Slaad in general have appeared elsewhere in OOTS, and the eyes don't match up.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Beastlike (Monstrous Frog)
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Always/Usually Chaotic Neutral

:smallsmile: 39 STR
:smallfrown: No wish, but has greater teleport.
:smallfrown: No Earthquake
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallconfused: Speaks telepathically.
:smallfrown:No eyes or mouth
:smallsmile: Spellcraft and various Knowledge ranks.
:smallconfused: Confusion aura might tie into circus scene.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Has the general shape of a beast, even though its legs are arms.
:smallconfused: Parent/Child?
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Usually Neutral Evil

:smallconfused: 27 STR
:smallsmile: Wish
:smallsmile: Earthquake
:smallsmile: Horrifying abberation with beautiful human face.
:smallsmile: Not listed as speaking any language.
:smallsmile: Lack of arms suggests difficulty pulling.
:smallsmile: Knowledge(Arcana/Religion/History) and Spellcraft ranks.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Two eyes
:smallsmile: Beast-like
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Usually Chaotic Evil

:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Access to Miracle
:smallsmile: Earthquake
:smallsmile: 24 Strength but can launch people 70 feet.
:smallsmile: Ugly with semi-high CHA (17)
:smallsmile: Fluff says young ones are rarely seen and the species might be dying out.
:smallsmile: Has spellcraft and Arcana ranks.
:smallsmile: USUALLY chaotic evil.
:smallsmile: Dragon evolutionary offshoot, so Beast-like.
:smallsmile: Two eyes
:smallsmile: Doesn't speak common.
:smallfrown: Speaks Infernal and Draconic

Anaxim (Construct, No teleportation, speaks common)
Astral Dreadnaught (Eyes are wrong, no teleportation)
Atropal (Doesn't eat or Sleep)
Barghest(Dimension door is highest possible teleportation)
Braxat (CR 9, only dimension door)
Cerebrilith (SR)
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)
Dao (MoP)
True Dragon (SRD)
Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)
Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
Efreet (SRD)
Epic Dragon (SRD or ELH 181)
Fiendwurm (MM2 99) (Borderline No Escape Explanation)
Formian Myrmarch (SRD)
Genie/Djinn (SRD or MM 114)
Ghour (MoF)
Gibbering Orb (SRD or ELH 191) (Borderline No Escape Explanation)
Gloom (SRD)(Borderline No Escape Explanation)
Grey Slaad (MM 231)
Guardinal, Leonal (SRD)
Half-Giant (SRD or XPH 200)
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)
Hoary Hunter (SRD or ELH 197)
Hunefer(SRD)
(Under Construction)


Aboleth Mage (SRD)
Brachyurus (SRD)
Brood Keeper (MM3)
Centaur (SRD)
Chichimec (SRD)
Couatl (SRD)
Disenchanter (FF)
Displacer Beast (MM 60)
Earth Elemental (SRD or MM 97)
Fhoimoren Giant (?)
Fihyr, Greater (MM2)
Gelatinous Cube (SRD)
Geriviar(MM3)
Gray Render (SRD or MM 138)
Hollyphant(BoED)
Illithid (MM)
(Under Construction)

Athasian Nightmare Beast (year late, never officially released. Exists only on defunct forums.)
Alhoon (Lords of Madness is too late.)
Angel of Decay (Libris Mortis is too late)
Astral Dragon (Dragon 344 is too late)
Brainstealer Dragon (Dragon 337)
Concordant Killer (MM4)
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)
Essence Reaver (?)
Goristro(FC1)
Grootslang(5e?)
(Under Construction)


Aurumach Rilmani
Bauhei
Crystalle
Giant Snowman
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)
Hephaestus
(Under Construction)

Andeloid
Baku
Black Troll
Cherub
Chiyou (Chinese mythical figure, Has D&D stats?)
Coeurl
Draknor
Draeden
Enveloper (1e)
General Ox
Giant Space Hamster
(Under Construction)


In addition, this is a list of all official D&D 3rd edition products that the MitD could be hiding in. Bolded entries have a monster section.

Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I July 2, 2000
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II September 1, 2000
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III October 1, 2000
Monster Manual II September 1, 2002
Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Monster Manual III April 1, 2003
Arms and Equipment Guide March 1, 2003 Mounts and Transport Creatures. Includes a few CR 20 but none fit.
Book of Challenges: Dungeon Rooms, Puzzles, and Traps June 1, 2002
Book of Exalted Deeds October 1, 2003
Book of Vile Darkness October 1, 2002
Complete Divine May 1, 2004 (Bogun only, doesn't fit.)
Complete Warrior December 1, 2003
Defenders of the Faith May 1, 2001
Deities and Demigods February 1, 2002 Olympian, Egyptian, and Asgardian Monsters only, none fit.
Draconomicon November 1, 2003
Enemies and Allies October 1, 2001 - You'd think so, but no. Just standard monsters with class levels.
Epic Level Handbook July 1, 2002
Expanded Psionics Handbook April 1, 2004
Fiend Folio April 1, 2003
Ghostwalk June 1, 2003 None fit.
Hero Builder's Guidebook December 1, 2000
Manual of the Planes September 1, 2001
Masters of the Wild February 1, 2002 Dire and Legendary animals, none fit.
Miniatures Handbook October 1, 2003
Oriental Adventures October 1, 2001
Planar Handbook July 1, 2004
Psionics Handbook March 1, 2001
Races of Stone August 1, 2004 192 Races only, none fit.
Savage Species February 1, 2003 Small section, most of this is templates and monster classes (as well as prestiege classes for monsters.
Song and Silence December 1, 2001
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook May 1, 2002
Sword and Fist January 1, 2001
Tome and Blood July 1, 2001
Unearthed Arcana February 1, 2004 Races only, none fit.

Faerun:
Faiths and Pantheons May 2002
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2001
Lords of Darkness 2001
Magic of Faerûn 2001 Very few
Monsters of Faerûn 2001
Player's Guide to Faerûn March 2004
Races of Faerûn March 2003 A few.
Serpent Kingdoms July 2004
Silver Marches 2002 Very few
Unapproachable East May 2003
Underdark October 2003

Eberron:
Eberron Campaign Setting June 2004

Dragonlance:
Dragonlance Campaign Settling, August 2003
Bestiary of Krynn, 2004 Revised 2006
Age of Mortals 2003 (Races only)
Towers of High Sorcery 2004

Magazines
Dragon Magazine: 274-322
Dungeon Magazine: 82 to 113


Vote is A -> D-> C -> B -> Z

[Spirare]

Inputting option F) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Medium, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species

This seems like the only logical form of strength scaling, to me. If MitD has 30+ strength and is Medium, their species is larger than Medium, and strength scaling is applied as a rule, then shouldn't we scale to what strength it would have as a Medium creature? The issue is that it would remove large numbers of candidates, but if that's a problem, then I would rather have strength scaling not be a rule at all than to have an illogical form of it. (List low strength relative to size as a con instead.)

I also don't believe size should be a hard restriction; it should either be scaled by strength, or not a rule.

My votes, then, are A > F > !(D, E, Z).

[MartytheBioGuy]

:smallfrown: No wish.
:smallfrown: Access to greater teleport, but only via complicated borrowing of other creatures' extraordinary abilities
:smallfrown:No Earthquake
:smallsmile: 53 STR
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallfrown: By default, doesn't have two eyes. Constantly maintaining the same form goes against fluff and stretches believability.
:smallfrown: Speak and understand all languages.
:smallsmile: Parents and Children
:smallconfused: Mind reading might explain some knowledge, but no foreshadowing of mind-reading ability.
:smallsmile: Has DR
:smallconfused: Hard to consider beastlike unless it's holding it's form that way.
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile:Always Chaotic Neutral


As much as the protean has not convinced me, I don't think you're giving it a fair shake here. If Escape can be explained by protean's shapeshifting, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the earthquake could too, if it's not just a function of the large strength, which the protean has. additionally, the fluff does imply that while it can speak all languages, they generally only speak their weird protean language that's hard to recognize as a language, which explains the BGH lines just fine. And If I say a living pile of boiling shapeshifter coming to attack me, I might be inclined to call it a beast.

Otherwise, your work is really excellent and can be very helpful if A, B, or C win!

[Jasdoif]

any(A,F); E; Z; D (this vote has been superceded by another vote in a later post)


(My post against F ended up spawning F on the voting list, somehow.) I guess we can simply remove it, unless that's against the voting rules...? (In which case, no one should vote for it - as I said earlier, if someone does, then I'm really interested in hearing why that person thinks Current FBS Rule #2 isn't perfect as it is!)The myriad "telekinesis isn't tapping" and references to the Strength threshold that's not even in the FBS post look a heck of a lot like an unspoken FBS criterion; as such, making explicit that it's not such a criterion promotes clarity.

[Squire Doodad]

-snip-

Honestly, I'd say the way this is set up really feels inconsistent compared to the FBS. Some things have several black marks for the same thing, while others fail to take into account important issues.
This is my evaluation of portions of your chart, based off of the discussions we have had over the last while. It is not meant to be a disservice to you personally in any way shape or form Void in Arizona and where prohibited
For instance:
The Protean shouldn't have both a :smallfrown: for not having Wish and also for Greater Teleport being inconsistent (though we do have evidence he has met a creature that can teleport, in the form of a teleporting beetle thing in one of the books); it should just be that the most viable explanations for the Escape scene involve a lucky shapeshift. Meanwhile, we've argued at length and concluded among the majority of us that there's a logical explanation working within MitD and the fluff that means a Protean MitD could maintain 2 eyes, and also that he wouldn't be normally speaking Common. So that'd be a :smallconfused: (has an issue, but has an okay solution) on the former and a :smallsmile: (no problem at all, a Protean wouldn't be found speaking Common or anything recognizable as a language) on the latter.

Similarly, matters like the Grey Linnorm's ability to launch people probably merits a :smallconfused:, not a boon (though that bit is my own stance, really), and in general the Ha-Naga part completely disregards the size issue (removing the size restriction wouldn't stop size from being an issue) and that STR for a Colossal creature is :smallfrown: worthy no matter which way you slice it.

There's some other things I would dispute, but those are some notable ones.

[Ruck]

As much as the protean has not convinced me, I don't think you're giving it a fair shake here.

Dismissing all the powers that make the Protean special as negative points will do that.

EDIT: I'm still a little confused about the voting of B and C-- wouldn't a Huge creature need to have STR 46 for an MITD-sized variation to fit the Tower scene, for example? Is that what that means?

[lio45]

any(A,F); E; Z; D

The myriad "telekinesis isn't tapping" and references to the Strength threshold that's not even in the FBS post look a heck of a lot like an unspoken FBS criterion; as such, making explicit that it's not such a criterion promotes clarity.Sure, but the fact that it's possible to debate what constitutes a satisfactory explanation of the Tower Scene has no bearing on my point which is that Rule #2 as written is elegantly generic and that's exactly how it should be: "Any suggested creature needs to have a decently compelling explanation for what's observed in the Tower Scene to qualify as FBS".

I wouldn't change that wording, it's literally perfect as is (and unarguable, IMO - since it's so general. It would be like trying to disagree with "Any theory, to be considered, needs to be able to explain the observations.")

Now, if someone wants to argue that a Baby Ha-Naga using telekinesis can constitute a convincing explanation of what happens in the Tower Scene, fine, no problem, I'm all ears.

In fact, Jasdoif, I'm sure you will be very amused to realize that all the "references to the Strength threshold that's not even in the FBS post" have directly produced some voting options about formally modifying that inexistent Strength threshold! (It's clearly why you're only voting for A and not B nor C, so that won't be news to you...)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm still a little confused about the voting of B and C-- wouldn't a Huge creature need to have STR 46 for an MITD-sized variation to fit the Tower scene, for example? Is that what that means?

Under F, yes. Under B (which sort of assumes that MitD is a small Large), no, just 38. Under C (which is sort of "current system, but switching from hard size cap to flexible cap with increasing strength"), no, since we already allow Huge with 30 strength.

Grey Wolf

[Malloon]

Alright, having gone through section 6 (having relied heavily on the descriptions) there only seem to be two scenes with the MitD sleeping. Page #662 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) and page #49 of SoD. I don't own SoD (yet) so I will have to ask people who do if you can see his eyes there. If so, that's a strike against the MitD being a protean, him needing to be awake in order to hold his form, after all.

Despite him possibly faking sleeping in #662, I do consider that page to make it slightly less likely, since we can assume that Redcloak, Tsukiko and Xykon have seen him sleeping before and would have noticed his eyes changing. His eyes not changing in #662 would then be a giveaway that he's faking, which none of them seem to pick up on, though to be fair they all had other things on their minds.


For my vote, decisions, decisions. I'm going to agree that the FBS causes too much trouble and strife. I read all the previous thread's yesterday. Therefore:

1. (Not quite) E): with the clause mentioned by Crusher that a periodic (or democratically decided) refresher is a must. I'm not going to quibble what form this takes, just that there is one. In fact, since I'd prefer having the FBS to E) without a refresher, it's probably best to call this option F) or G) instead (I can't seem to deduce if F) is taken or not).

2. Another homebrew. A), but with the caveat that the proposed creature has to plausibly have juvenile versions (aka. not explicitly excluded or have fluff that makes it impossible). So basically replacing FBS condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles". Call it H), or A.2), or whatever. No, I'm not doing this to make your life more complicated, Grey Wolf, even if it has that effect. Sorry.

3. Any subset of A), B) or C).

4. Z), just to torpedo D) or E) (as written) with as much power is bestowed on me.


I'm quite aware that my inventing spree might make me responsible for helping implement my proposed changes should they gain traction. Why do I do this to myself? :smallsigh:


-snip-

I second this. The protean fits better than described and the (comparatively) low strength of the Ha-naga with it having Colossal size is a disqualifying factor for me, in addition to the problem of staying hidden while slithering and the seeming implication of him having limbs (stomp, holding objects while moving).

~Malloon

[lio45]

... no, since we already allow Huge with 30 strength.

Grey WolfJasdoif and I are both wondering where exactly we allow this - it doesn't seem to be an actual requirement.

Is it just unspoken convention that has traditionally disallowed STR<30 to "satisfy the Tower Scene"?

[Keltest]

Jasdoif and I are both wondering where exactly we allow this - it doesn't seem to be an actual requirement.

Is it just unspoken convention that has traditionally disallowed STR<30 to "satisfy the Tower Scene"?

The actual description for the tower scene comes with links to writeups examining what, exactly, would be necessary to get that affect. I assume it comes from there, not really having the ability to comb through them atm.

Also, i am confused as to why option A has an asterisk on it given that it is a simple removal of one of the FBS requirements, as near as i can tell, while option E, which requires an ill defined new system, does not. The asterisk represents an expectation that people who vote for it come up with whatever it actually requires, yes?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

1. (Not quite) E): with the clause mentioned by Crusher that a periodic (or democratically decided) refresher is a must. I'm not going to quibble what form this takes, just that there is one. In fact, since I'd prefer having the FBS to E) without a refresher, it's probably best to call this option F) or G) instead (I can't seem to deduce if F) is taken or not).
Listed it as E, but clarified that E's specific process will be decided later.


2. Another homebrew. A), but with the caveat that the proposed creature has to plausibly have juvenile versions (aka. not explicitly excluded or have fluff that makes it impossible). So basically replacing FBS condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles". Call it H), or A.2), or whatever.
Listed it both as G and H in two slightly different configurations. Put you down for G. H is just for my own amusement, though.


No, I'm not doing this to make your life more complicated, Grey Wolf, even if it has that effect. Sorry.
It is not. Don't worry.


3. Any subset of A), B) or C).
I don't consider (A,B,C) to be a subset of itself, for probably all the wrong reasons, so I listed it first, then the subset you requested.
Changed my mind, since A, B, C are all incompatible with each other, so instead I list just what you said.


4. Z), just to torpedo D) or E) (as written) with as much power is bestowed on me.
Did that, and then went ahead and added !(D, E), given that seems to be your preference.


I'm quite aware that my inventing spree might make me responsible for helping implement my proposed changes should they gain traction. Why do I do this to myself? :smallsigh:
It has happened before. The whole point of delaying the vote was so y'all could give me these things in advance so you wouldn't start at a disadvantage. So this time you only have yourself to blame, I'm afraid.


Is it just unspoken convention that has traditionally disallowed STR<30 to "satisfy the Tower Scene"?

Section 1f: MitD's Scores


Also, i am confused as to why option A has an asterisk on it given that it is a simple removal of one of the FBS requirements, as near as i can tell, while option E, which requires an ill defined new system, does not. The asterisk represents an expectation that people who vote for it come up with whatever it actually requires, yes?

No, the asterisk indicates that that option triggers my "if you guys vote for this, you better do the hard part of the job" clause

Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.

I've never had to pull the trigger on this option before now, but I added it back at the very start, because there was a vocal minority asking to divide 3e into a point system where each scene gave a suggestion a point, and then "we" were supposed to tally the points, etc. It look like such a horrendous amount of work that I put in a escape clause that I would be allowed to refuse to do consensus votes that I just could not face. Admittedly, finding all the large monsters that would now be FBS are not quite as bad as that, but it is bad enough I'm giving fair warning that I will NOT be finding them all - I'll expect someone who voted for it to give me the list.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Oh, ok. Its specifically the concern about things that suddenly arent excluded. That makes more sense. Ok then, Danke.

[Crusher]

I do agree that E if it passes would generate a lot of voting. I'm really not a fan. (Still think it's marginally better than Z though.)

Heh, I said I was willing to do it, but this one was your idea, too!

Edit - Also... sigh. I’m not sure how to best do it, but I’d like to add “plus either of E or F” to each of my votes, except the vote for Z, of course.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also... sigh. I’m not sure how to best do it, but I’d like to add “plus either of E or F” to each of my votes, except the vote for Z, of course.

Sure, done. But none of those are compatible with one another. E gets rid of FBS, so B & C can't apply to a section we don't have anymore, and F is an alternative to both B and C.

(Malloon, this is how you give me a headache, if you are still looking into that)

GW

[MartytheBioGuy]

No, the asterisk indicates that that option triggers my "if you guys vote for this, you better do the hard part of the job" clause

Which is why, for however problematic as some entries are, I was glad to see 3Powers' list.

[Jasdoif]

F) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Medium, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base speciesReassigned the letter out from under my vote, I see :smalltongue:

So, my vote is now: A ; E; Z; D

[lio45]

Heh, I said I was willing to do it, but this one was your idea, too!Sure :) to be clear, I'm not really a fan of the idea of this thread being in a continuous state of everyone always re-mentioning what we're voting for - something which COULD happen, under SOME of the (bad, IMO) ways of implementing this idea. This is what I had in mind when I replied that.

I'm perfectly okay with the idea of replacing "the indirect democracy" of us electing FBS Criteria and letting those select the Top X Creatures, by "direct democracy", i.e. we directly elect our Top X Creatures via your list.

There are pros and cons to each method.

But something's for sure IMO, if we choose to get rid of FBS and replace that by Crusher's List, then Crusher's List will obviously have to be rebooted once in a while - either linked to real world passage of time (say, once a year) or linked to MitD's appearances (say, rebooted after each series of Team Evil comics, on the moment the comic switches back to showing any other group than Team Evil).

Simply put, I'm against having big creature size a non-negotiable dealbreaker, on the basis that we know for sure that MitD is smaller than his creature size. There are many ways to achieve this - removing FBS Criterion #6 is one of them, but eliminating FBS altogether does it too (if a creature is compelling despite being too big, since most people seem to agree MitD isn't "full size", it will almost certainly find itself near the top of Crusher's List, size be damned; and if it doesn't, it's because it's not compelling enough).

[Crusher]

Sure, done. But none of those are compatible with one another. E gets rid of FBS, so B & C can't apply to a section we don't have anymore, and F is an alternative to both B and C.

(Malloon, this is how you give me a headache, if you are still looking into that)

GW

Oh, huh. Ok, this is embarrassing but I’d always thought the FBS criteria were a bit separate from the candidate list. So, I thought E,F would keep the criteria as a vestigial evaluation aid, and only the monster list would go away in some fashion. My mistake.

Can I, um, rescind my votes for E,F? Sorry about that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which is why, for however problematic as some entries are, I was glad to see 3Powers' list.

3powers' list is utterly inconsequential to the process of identifying every entry in 3e that needs to be in the FBS is A wins since it is missing most 1e creatures and doesn't list sizes, strengths, or anything else needed to make the decision.


Oh, huh. Ok, this is embarrassing but I’d always thought the FBS criteria were a bit separate from the candidate list. So, I thought E,F would keep the criteria as a vestigial evaluation aid, and only the monster list would go away in some fashion. My mistake.
No need for rules when it's a direct vote.


Can I, um, rescind my votes for E,F? Sorry about that.
Rescinded it is.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Section 1f: MitD's ScoresBut Section 1f is completely separate from the Official FBS Criteria.

Have "we" been treating "STR Must Be >=30" as a formal-yet-secret FBS Criterion all this time...?

Because that's really not what (Basically Unarguable) FBS Criterion #2 says.

[MartytheBioGuy]

3powers' list is utterly inconsequential to the process of identifying every entry in 3e that needs to be in the FBS is A wins since it is missing most 1e creatures and doesn't list sizes, strengths, or anything else needed to make the decision.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but if A wins, then at least part of 3power's methodology (not paying attention to size) would actually help us in compiling a list, no?

Like, if we remove the size requirement, then why do we suddenly need to look at a bunch of entries for their size? We wouldn't need to pay attention to size anymore, except as a bonus.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

secret

And I'm done with you again. Someone please do let me know if he changes his votes.


Like, if we remove the size requirement, then why do we suddenly need to look at a bunch of entries for their size? We wouldn't need to pay attention to size anymore, except as a bonus.

If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.

Grey Wolf

Are there any? It seems to me that anything that qualified except for the size either had a problem with strength when scaled down enough, which would generally continue to disqualify them due to lacking an explanation for the tower scene, or got voted in on special exception anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, this is certainly an interesting vote. As I mentioned earlier, I think I have come to see the size rule as problematic and so would like to see it removed/reworked. However, I remain a supporter of the FBS list until a better proposal for its replacement comes along. While there are issues with people wanting their proposals in the list, removing the list with no replacement would be unhelpful (when I first found the list I made it about 3 entries into 3e before giving up). I‘m not a huge fan of replacing it with Crusher‘s list (or a similar entity). What I or others think the MitD could be can easily stray from what is actually likely (just look at my vote).

Thus, my vote will be the following. A > C > Z > B

Also, new thread, yay! Wonder how long it’ll be until the MitD actually rears it’s ever-changing head.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are there any? It seems to me that anything that qualified except for the size either had a problem with strength when scaled down enough, which would generally continue to disqualify them due to lacking an explanation for the tower scene, or got voted in on special exception anyway.

There is at least 2, and likely more. But if I knew, I wouldn't have a problem doing the listing, now would I?

ETA: also, what's this about scaling down the strength? Option A doesn't require it. A Colossal creature with strength 30 would still need to be put in the FBS (assuming the other conditions didn't prevent it, etc. etc.)


However, I remain a supporter of the FBS list until a better proposal for its replacement comes along.

As per the above, I think the FBS will be made worse without the size cap. When we introduced it, the FBS had 14 members. Now, some of them probably won't make it back because of mental control, and I'm more strict than I used to regarding strength. But many other suggestions have been added since, many who got dinged on size alone. If as I fear the FBS suddenly ends with 15+ entries, it'll be half as useful as it is today.

ETA: and in case that is not obvious, I have the same problem in reverse with B and F: an FBS with only 3 or 2 entries is not as useful as one with ~6-12.

Grey Wolf

[MartytheBioGuy]

If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.


Good point. Owing to some of the lack of clarity in 3power's list's organization, I hadn't realized just how different the list was. I've started work on a more consequential writeup regarding the 3e entries. So far, Aboleth Mage actually works pretty well, but this we already knew. :smalltongue:

[Qwertystop]

I would vote for:
Either of (B, F) > H > G > Z

[lio45]

And I'm done with you again. Someone please do let me know if he changes his votes.So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're disputing that the FBS Criteria at the moment are in the number of seven, and that they are the following...?

1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 3c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)


... because I don't see anything about having a minimum STR requirement there. Creatures simply have to be able to plausibly perform what MitD did in the Tower Scene, that's all.

If it's not listed there, yet it's being used in practice as a criterion... are we going to have to break out a dictionary and look up the word "secret"? I'm seriously discussing this in good faith - you're the one being aggressive here (making a point of ignoring me, while all I did was repeat a very valid point that Jasdoif brought up first).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As per the above, I think the FBS will be made worse without the size cap. When we introduced it, the FBS had 14 members. Now, some of them probably won't make it back because of mental control, and I'm more strict than I used to regarding strength. But many other suggestions have been added since, many who got dinged on size alone. If as I fear the FBS suddenly ends with 15+ entries, it'll be half as useful as it is today.

ETA: and in case that is not obvious, I have the same problem in reverse with B and F: an FBS with only 3 or 2 entries is not as useful as one with ~6-12.

Grey Wolf

I could see myself regretting my vote, depending on how many entries get added, but I would still prefer a half-useful FBS to none at all. Voting for Z first is an option, but I think at this point I do want to see some change.

...With that all said, my reasoning for putting A above C is that I figured the changes would be largely similar and I’m not committed to a strict strength-size bar, even if it is more lenient than the previous size cap. But, if it was clear A would make the FBS list unwieldy, I’d be inclined to change.

[Squire Doodad]

I think this is a given, but do note that this would make size no longer a requirement. It doesn't stop size from being a con (or a fitting size being a pro), nor does it stop things from getting the hammer due to having preexisting problems, or of course not fitting the Strength limit. Ha-Naga, looking at you

Ideally, the removal of the size limit will only allow a small few candidates back. I personally doubt many things over Huge really fit, with the few that do like the Xenocrysth only being applicable due to factors seen on a case to case basis. But, I guess we might as well.

[lio45]

I could see myself regretting my vote, depending on how many entries get added, but I would still prefer a half-useful FBS to none at all.As I've pointed out for years, it's the other way around - if new entries get added to the FBS list that were only previously disqualified for size, then people like Ruck and you and I who have all confessed to basically sticking to what's in FBS are going to want to look at those entries, since they're very good fits. So doing just that (adding good entries that were previously kept "hidden" (in practice) in a section that very few people look at) makes the FBS list more useful, not less.

[Squire Doodad]

As I've pointed out for years, it's the other way around - if new entries get added to the FBS list that were only previously disqualified for size, then people like Ruck and you and I who have all confessed to basically sticking to what's in FBS are going to want to look at those entries, since they're very good fits. So doing just that (adding good entries that were previously kept "hidden" (in practice) in a section that very few people look at) makes the FBS list more useful, not less.

I mean some of the entries happen to have good things, but for the reasons we have discussed in strenuous and repeated detail some shouldn't fit due to their size not fitting under the umbrella as a "child". Of course, we should vote on them when their STR is unsatisfactory given their size (say, a 31 STR Gargantuan), but I digress.

That said the FBS's main asset is that it's a quick, consistent and quality analysis of the few monsters, which would mean if it has say 40 monsters on it then a) some of them will ultimately be classified into tiers, and the bottommost ones probably should just go at that point and also b) there will be significantly more to plow through, and it is less likely to give a reader an effective and succinct "this is what we have figured out so far" analysis.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean some of the entries happen to have good things, but for the reasons we have discussed in strenuous and repeated detail some shouldn't fit due to their size not fitting under the umbrella as a "child".

Indeed, but also, right now, the FBS has 7 members, that offer a fairly broad panoply of approaches. If we add to that another 7, all of whom are "Glabrezu, but gargantuan/colossal", we'll have accomplished nothing except fill the FBS with chaff. And a chaff-filled FBS isn't useful.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Are there any? It seems to me that anything that qualified except for the size either had a problem with strength when scaled down enough, which would generally continue to disqualify them due to lacking an explanation for the tower scene, or got voted in on special exception anyway.These are the twenty-five creatures I found in section 3e that are (or could reasonably be expected to be) Gargantuan or Colossal and/or mention being too big in their short descriptions: Akvan Div Prince
Astral Dragon
Astral Dreadnaught
Brainstealer Dragon
Brood Keeper
Corpse Tearer Linnorm
Dragon
Draknor
Draeden
Dread Linnorm
Epic Dragon
Fiendwurm
Ghour
Giant Snowman
Grootslang
Gug
Ha-Naga
King-Kong descendant
Lethus Dragon
Li Lung (Earth Dragon)
Neothelid
Nessie the Loch Ness Monster
Shadow Dragon
Titan, Elder
Ulgurstasta Sorcerer
The various dragons have stuff like "can't explain the tower or escape until they're too big to fit in the box"; but all those creatures have listed cons besides the size.


Edit to add:
If it's not listed there, yet it's being used in practice as a criterion... are we going to have to break out a dictionary and look up the word "secret"?I believe "informal" or "de facto" are the appropriate terms here. "Secret" implies a deliberate attempt to keep it hidden...which, besides potentially implying deceit, is horribly undercut by the Strength threshold score by listed anywhere in the opening posts.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As I've pointed out for years, it's the other way around - if new entries get added to the FBS list that were only previously disqualified for size, then people like Ruck and you and I who have all confessed to basically sticking to what's in FBS are going to want to look at those entries, since they're very good fits. So doing just that (adding good entries that were previously kept "hidden" (in practice) in a section that very few people look at) makes the FBS list more useful, not less.

Well, at a certain point I think it would also start to get unwieldy. The reason why the FBS list is a good place for people to look is in part due to its small size. I should also point out that it’s not like I’ve never ventured past the FBS (again, see my vote) it’s just that at first it was a nice first place to go.

[Doug Lampert]

C>B>Z

30 for huge is almost certainly too low. But I think 38 for huge may be a bit too high, and better too loose a standard than too tight.

[lio45]

Well, at a certain point I think it would also start to get unwieldy. The reason why the FBS list is a good place for people to look is in part due to its small size. I should also point out that it’s not like I’ve never ventured past the FBS (again, see my vote) it’s just that at first it was a nice first place to go.But again, if all the new entries that have been added were kept off only due to size, then by definition, we want to take a fresh look at all of them.

If Squire Doodad's prediction is correct that it may cause the list to swell to 40 entries, which we all agree is unwieldy, then the correct fix for that is to tighten the FBS criteria in the way the community prefers to do that, which is going to be by something OTHER than "species size must fit in the box" this time.

I agree with Grey Wolf that something that's "as poor a fit as Glabrezu, plus it's Colossal" shouldn't be on the list. If there's such chaff on the list, then that means it's up to us to tighten the requirements to keep it off.

For example, something I've always wanted to add to the FBS requirements would be a minimum CR. I think that when Xykon says "there's nothing in that tower that's scarier than you", that scene is a strict super-solid disqualifier of any lowish CR FBS candidates.

[Charybdis136]

I vote for B. I also do not remember if I ever officially voted on the monster so I want to cast my vote for protean. On a related note, have we ever had a minimum size requirement for the species of MitD? Last thread we talked briefly about it being impossible for the species to be listed as medium or lower due to him being notably smaller than a normal adult of his species. If his species size was medium or below, then he is small or below and he is too small for the umbrella IMO (eye placement and holding up seems unlikely). I do not know if people would agree but I would be for adding a minimum listed size of large for all suggestions. I do not want to complicate the already existing vote so I would also be happy waiting to discuss it formally until everything else settles.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On a related note, have we ever had a minimum size requirement for the species of MitD?

No. But we also have no FBS entries that are Medium or smaller, nor, to the best of my recollection, have we ever had any, so having such a rule would make no difference. You are free, of course, to apply that to your guesses, suggestions and/or logic.

Grey Wolf

[Charybdis136]

No. But we also have no FBS entries that are Medium or smaller, nor, to the best of my recollection, have we ever had any, so having such a rule would make no difference. You are free, of course, to apply that to your guesses, suggestions and/or logic.

Grey Wolf

Well it is good that it would not change anything. I guess if some super popular creature suddenly appears out of thin air that is medium, I will revisit this point. Certainly no use worrying about it now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well it is good that it would not change anything. I guess if some super popular creature suddenly appears out of thin air that is medium, I will revisit this point. Certainly no use worrying about it now.

The funny part is, we do have a super-popular Medium suggestion, the Zodar. He featured prominently in many other forums (tvtropes, for example). But he never made it to the FBS, because of the circus scene.

GW

[MartytheBioGuy]

These are the twenty-five creatures I found in section 3e that are (or could reasonably be expected to be) Gargantuan or Colossal and/or mention being too big in their short descriptions: Akvan Div Prince
Astral Dragon
Astral Dreadnaught
Brainstealer Dragon
Brood Keeper
Corpse Tearer Linnorm
Dragon
Draknor
Draeden
Dread Linnorm
Epic Dragon
Fiendwurm
Ghour
Giant Snowman
Grootslang
Gug
Ha-Naga
King-Kong descendant
Lethus Dragon
Li Lung (Earth Dragon)
Neothelid
Nessie the Loch Ness Monster
Shadow Dragon
Titan, Elder
Ulgurstasta Sorcerer
The various dragons have stuff like "can't explain the tower or escape until they're too big to fit in the box"; but all those creatures have listed cons besides the size.


Well, you certainly work much faster than me (darn kids, needing my help brushing their teeth and... reading them stories! :smallbiggrin:). As others have said, this list is ripe for further whittling. I, for one, think that most things with "dragon" in their name can likely be swept off the table by the wizard at the circus's line, cool as they may be. I also think that King Kong and Nessie are likely to fall away due to their lack of magical power. But it looks like we're off to a good start, should A, B, or C win.

[lio45]

I vote for B. I also do not remember if I ever officially voted on the monster so I want to cast my vote for protean. On a related note, have we ever had a minimum size requirement for the species of MitD? Last thread we talked briefly about it being impossible for the species to be listed as medium or lower due to him being notably smaller than a normal adult of his species. If his species size was medium or below, then he is small or below and he is too small for the umbrella IMO (eye placement and holding up seems unlikely). I do not know if people would agree but I would be for adding a minimum listed size of large for all suggestions. I do not want to complicate the already existing vote so I would also be happy waiting to discuss it formally until everything else settles.I agree on all counts. It's clear that MitD's species has to be at least Large.

I'm a very strong supporter of adding a "Minimum CR" requirement to the FBS list, but exactly like you, I don't want to complicate the existing vote (I really want to get rid of the "must fit in the box" requirement and wouldn't want to jeopardize that) so I'm also waiting until that's done to maybe bring it up.

If removing the size requirement causes the FBS list to become unwieldy, all the better reason to tighten it up a bit by removing all the Low CR chaff. (MitD is clearly an incredibly powerful creature, that's undeniable.)



Jasdoif, point taken, it wasn't my intention at all to imply deceit. And I'm fine with a certain degree of curator autonomy, obviously.

Thought experiment, on that topic. Imagine if the curator decides that the only thing that "explains the escape in a satisfactory manner" is that the creature has access to Wish. Wouldn't that in practice be basically the equivalent of replacing the democratically-decided FBS Criterion #1, "must explain Escape", by a different (undemocratic) one, "must have Wish"...?

Just so it's clear, I'm again not accusing GW of anything, it's hypothetical, just curious to bring up the topic of how exactly the FBS criteria get applied. I mean, if the community had wanted to put a STR>=30 requirement in there, then there would be an eighth FBS Criterion, "Must have STR>=30".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I, for one, think that most things with "dragon" in their name can likely be swept off the table by the wizard at the circus's line, cool as they may be.

Not all dragons look like typical dragons.

GW

[Charybdis136]

I agree on all counts. It's clear that MitD's species has to be at least Large.

I'm a very strong supporter of adding a "Minimum CR" requirement to the FBS list, but exactly like you, I don't want to complicate the existing vote (I really want to get rid of the "must fit in the box" requirement and wouldn't want to jeopardize that) so I'm also waiting until that's done to maybe bring it up.

If removing the size requirement causes the FBS list to become unwieldy, all the better reason to tighten it up a bit by removing all the Low CR chaff. (MitD is clearly an incredibly powerful creature, that's undeniable.)



Jasdoif, point taken, it wasn't my intention at all to imply deceit. And I'm fine with a certain degree of curator autonomy, obviously.

Thought experiment, on that topic. Imagine if the curator decides that the only thing that "explains the escape in a satisfactory manner" is that the creature has access to Wish. Wouldn't that in practice be basically the equivalent of replacing the democratically-decided FBS Criterion #1, "must explain Escape", by a different (undemocratic) one, "must have Wish"...?

Just so it's clear, I'm again not accusing GW of anything, it's hypothetical, just curious to bring up the topic of how exactly the FBS criteria get applied. I mean, if the community had wanted to put a STR>=30 requirement in there, then there would be an eighth FBS Criterion, "Must have STR>=30".

Agree on CR, we all know he is very powerful but I think it is hard to decided how powerful. What is the cutoff? For me it is 21, because I am convinced he is epic, but for someone else 17 might be fine because that is enough to be as much a threat as redcloak (which is enough to be terrifying since redcloak can almost solo tpk the party if he came prepared). So the line is not really supported by evidence via action but how team evil refers to him as a substantial threat. That's why it is hard but I think most people agree that somewhere around 18+. We give extra credit to really high monsters usually.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agree on CR, we all know he is very powerful but I think it is hard to decided how powerful. What is the cutoff? For me it is 21, because I am convinced he is epic, but for someone else 17 might be fine because that is enough to be as much a threat as redcloak (which is enough to be terrifying since redcloak can almost solo tpk the party if he came prepared). So the line is not really supported by evidence via action but how team evil refers to him as a substantial threat. That's why it is hard but I think most people agree that somewhere around 18+. We give extra credit to really high monsters usually.

I've been informed in multiple occasions that CR is quite broken in 3rd ed, especially in third party expansions, and that it is not a reliable measure of how dangerous a creature is. That is the primary reason why I'd rather not put CR anywhere in the requirements. CRs too low are still mentioned in the cons section, but anything beyond it is a bit too dangerous.

ETA:
Also, FTR & for what is worth, this is the exact post that convinced me I should not keep creatures under strength 30 in the FBS:


Personally I think that with the Aboleth already not having the requisite strength, should be removed from the FBS for inadequate strength, no real defense against Milko's attacks (AC 18, no DR or anything) [fails both accounts for Tower Scene), and needing to actually say "Teleport" (though teleport isn't a very good explanation of the escape itself) (Escape). I agree it almost fits some things, but it doesn't.

We never needed to formally state the strength requirement in the FBS list because it had already been the general strength requirement for the tower as listed in the OP, and the only reason we had creatures such as Aboleth in the FBS at that point was because I found them interesting, despite not meeting the minimum standards. Just in case anyone might have thought lio45's "secret" accusation had any legs.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Not all dragons look like typical dragons.

GWTrue, but I would guess everyone can agree with a slightly different variation of MartytheBioGuy's point: "anything that looks like a perfectly standard dragon can likely be swept off the table by the wizard at the circus's line".

[MartytheBioGuy]

Not all dragons look like typical dragons.

GW

Which is why I said most and likely.{Scrubbed}I didn't say "And so we now must immediately eliminate all dragons." I pointed to dragons as a good first place to start pruning. You bring the most unsubtle reads to every post I make. This thread, this effort, was what reminded me of OotS when quarantine is getting me down, and got me back into this amazing fandom. It was engaging enough that I dug up my old login and got back in the forums for the first time in literal years. And the way you've responded to the vast majority of my posts is making me want to leave. I understand that you get frustrated arguing many of the same points over and over again, but please don't jump down my throat for things I didn't even say.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which is why I said most and likely. You don't like reading my posts.

You also said "swept", which implies they were not going to be examined closely, but instead painted with a broad brush. That is dangerous. Thus, my response that you can't assume that because "dragon" is in the name they can be swept for any reason.

Also, please be aware that I had to explain to you the same concept of what is involved in option A winning twice in rapid succession immediately after I explained it in the very same page:

Admittedly, finding all the large monsters that would now be FBS are not quite as bad as that, but it is bad enough I'm giving fair warning that I will NOT be finding them all - I'll expect someone who voted for it to give me the list.

Grey Wolf

3powers' list is utterly inconsequential to the process of identifying every entry in 3e that needs to be in the FBS is A wins since it is missing most 1e creatures and doesn't list sizes, strengths, or anything else needed to make the decision.


If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.

{Scrubbed}

Grey Wolf

[MartytheBioGuy]

But not to worry, it won't happen again.

Grey Wolf
Nah, it won't, because I'm leaving these forums. {Scrubbed}

[Charybdis136]

I've been informed in multiple occasions that CR is quite broken in 3rd ed, especially in third party expansions, and that it is not a reliable measure of how dangerous a creature is. That is the primary reason why I'd rather not put CR anywhere in the requirements. CRs too low are still mentioned in the cons section, but anything beyond it is a bit too dangerous.

ETA:
Also, FTR & for what is worth, this is the exact post that convinced me I should not keep creatures under strength 30 in the FBS:



We never needed to formally state the strength requirement in the FBS list because it had already been the general strength requirement as listed in the OP, and the only reason we had creatures such as Aboleth in the FBS at that point was because I found them interesting, despite not meeting the minimum standards. Just in case anyone might have thought lio45's "secret" accusation had any legs.

Grey Wolf

CR is all sorts of busted in 3.5. I agree that makes it a poor predictor. There are balance issues all over the system, much like how a level 17 wizard can kill 4 level 17 fighters with 0 effort (if you dont believe me look up guides on how to break wizards in 3.5 without bending any rules). If team evil was not trying to betray each other they are actually too strong for the party since they are 2 full casters with access to 9th level spells. So I have to agree it is not a great idea to have a hard limit, each entry has to be examined and deemed a reasonable threat to the party on it's own. Which does not need to be a rule, just something we will listen as a pro or con.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which does not need to be a rule, just something we will listen as a pro or con.

Which is what we do already - for example, the Aboleth has its CR17 as a con (our rule of thumb is CR >= 18). That said, because I don't much trust it and don't really understand or remember the various CRs, unless the information is clearly posted somewhere in-thread when I am refreshing the OP, I'm very likely to forget to make a note of it.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

We never needed to formally state the strength requirement in the FBS list because it had already been the general strength requirement as listed in the OP, and the only reason we had creatures such as Aboleth in the FBS at that point was because I found them interesting, despite not meeting the minimum standards. Just in case anyone might have thought lio45's "secret" accusation had any legs.

So you're saying that there _is_ a STR requirement that gets applied to every creature when it's getting judged for FBS qualification, but it's not listed among the FBS criteria. In other words, you're pointing out that in practice, the FBS list getting applied to entries is basically this one:

1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 3c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
8) STR >= 30

I'll let the reader judge, on that "legs" business.

On a related note, if the "requirements" that are listed in the OP but aren't formally in the FBS criteria are still requirements that FBS contenders have to meet, then how come the Glabrezu is still a FBS?
it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil

These "requirements" don't seem to be applied very consistently. If the community wishes to make STR>=30 a FBS criterion, it can vote to do that; if the community wishes to make "must not be an Embodiment of Evil" a FBS criterion, it can vote to do that. Until it does, the only FBS criteria should be the ones that are officially FBS criteria, no?

[Savil]

Weird, I was sure there was an option "list xenocrysth in FBS as an exception with size as a con", but I don't see it now. That would be my first choice, but if it isn't available, C>B>G,H>Z

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Weird, I was sure there was an option "list xenocrysth in FBS as an exception with size as a con", but I don't see it now.

There was, but it was my own, and decided to remove it, because I realised it's essentially option E, except for only one suggestion. If we want to move to approval voting "community choice", we might as well be consistent about it, and not just do it for some but not others.

That said, if you want to put it back in, I'll do that. In the meantime, I've added the other votes. I interpreted G,H as Any of (G,H) since they are not compatible (i.e. if we have H, we don't need to also have G)

ETA: you know what, it hurts nothing for me to add it back. Durkon's Thor knows my hope of getting all possible options before the vote went out the window within minutes of the vote starting anyway, what's one more. Done.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

As I've pointed out for years, it's the other way around - if new entries get added to the FBS list that were only previously disqualified for size, then people like Ruck and you and I who have all confessed to basically sticking to what's in FBS are going to want to look at those entries, since they're very good fits. So doing just that (adding good entries that were previously kept "hidden" (in practice) in a section that very few people look at) makes the FBS list more useful, not less.

Think about it like this: if you're right, and there are lots of candidates out there that would be at least workable FBS fits, but people keep ignoring them because they're too big (in addition to the ones we already know about), then removing the size limit is going to result in a zillion extra FBS monsters. Which isn't ideal, as GW_c has noted.

On the other hand, the Xeno...whatsit that just got proposed *is* Gargantuan, yet it was found and proposed and is considered a remarkably good fit. Good enough, arguably, that it sparked a willingness to revisit the FBS criteria. So clearly the size restriction isn't completely shutting down discussion of "too-large" monsters. I mean, just to be practical about it, do you have a monster you would like to propose (but haven't) because its too large?

In a nutshell, that's why I'm against Option A. I don't think the rule is currently being so tightly enforced that we're losing out on anything, and in fact we're at risk of the FBS list getting swamped by mediocre candidates.

[Spirare]

These are the twenty-five creatures I found in section 3e that are (or could reasonably be expected to be) Gargantuan or Colossal and/or mention being too big in their short descriptions: Akvan Div Prince
Astral Dragon
Astral Dreadnaught
Brainstealer Dragon
Brood Keeper
Corpse Tearer Linnorm
Dragon
Draknor
Draeden
Dread Linnorm
Epic Dragon
Fiendwurm
Ghour
Giant Snowman
Grootslang
Gug
Ha-Naga
King-Kong descendant
Lethus Dragon
Li Lung (Earth Dragon)
Neothelid
Nessie the Loch Ness Monster
Shadow Dragon
Titan, Elder
Ulgurstasta Sorcerer
The various dragons have stuff like "can't explain the tower or escape until they're too big to fit in the box"; but all those creatures have listed cons besides the size.

Reviewing this list (I'll assume it's complete and there are no other Gargantuan+ proposed creatures in 3e), and assessing each one based on the 6 FBS requirements (assuming A passes the vote) to find new FBS candidates among them:

Akvan Div Prince: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 3 or 5, debatable.
Astral Dragon: Doesn't fit 2 or 3.
Astral Dreadnaught: Doesn't fit 1.
Brainstealer Dragon: Doesn't fit 5.
Brood Keeper: Doesn't fit 1, 2 or 3.
Corpse Tearer Linnorm: Potential FBS candidate. Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement. (Perhaps it should be added?)
Dragon: Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
Draknor: Doesn't fit 1 or 7.
Draeden: Doesn't fit 7. Far larger than the typical Colossal, potentially disqualifying exception even if 6 is removed. Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Dread Linnorm: Doesn't fit 7.
Epic Dragon: Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
Fiendwurm: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 1, debatable.
Ghour: Potential FBS candidate. Problems with alignment and CR, but those aren't FBS requirements.
Giant Snowman: Doesn't fit 1.
Grootslang: Doesn't fit 1 or 5.
Gug: Doesn't fit 2.
Ha-Naga: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 2, debatable (as proven by how much it's been debated; consensus seems against it, though). Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.
King-Kong descendant: Doesn't fit 1.
Lethus Dragon: Doesn't fit 5.
Li Lung (Earth Dragon): Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
Neothelid: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 2, debatable. No eyes, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Nessie the Loch Ness Monster: Doesn't fit 1.
Shadow Dragon: Doesn't fit 1.
Titan, Elder: Doesn't fit 3. Language problems, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Ulgurstasta Sorcerer: Doesn't fit 2 or 4.

Trimming down to exclusively potential FBS candidates among them:

Akvan Div Prince: Might not fit 3 or 5, debatable.
Corpse Tearer Linnorm: Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Fiendwurm: Might not fit 1, debatable.
Ghour: Problems with alignment and CR, but those aren't FBS requirements.
Ha-Naga: Might not fit 2, debatable. Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.
Neothelid: Might not fit 2, debatable. No eyes, but that's not an FBS requirement.

That makes 6 plausible additions when ignoring size, which may need discussion. 2 appear to fit the FBS requirements well (even if not necessarily the MitD; they have non-FBS cons), and the other 4 are debatable on whether they actually fit the requirements or not.


I do agree that the 30-STR baseline should be listed in the FBS requirements as well - although if B, C or F passes the vote, then that would happen anyway, of course.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do agree that the 30-STR baseline should be listed in the FBS requirements as well

I think it's unnecessarily redundant, but it also is just a few characters. Added.



Youtube just decided to "randomly" recommend I watch C.G.P Grey's video on voting systems. The video is some 8 years old, and I haven't watched any of CGP's old videos in forever (I do watch his new stuff, but he puts out a video about once in a blue moon, he's hardly one of my top visited channels). I had not seen any video by him recommended to me in bloody ages, and the moment I start talking about voting systems here, youtube recommends it?

Sigh. And people wonder why I'm so paranoid about what few breadcrumbs of personal info I drop here and there.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

So clearly the size restriction isn't completely shutting down discussion of "too-large" monsters. I mean, just to be practical about it, do you have a monster you would like to propose (but haven't) because its too large?There are two that I feel could be interesting candidates and I'd like them to receive a fair evaluation, something which is more likely to happen if they aren't blatantly failing to meet the official shortlist of criteria as soon as we start. (Ha-Naga, which AFAIK, is Epic, has Wish, has yellow eyes, high Charisma, a Resistance ability that could explain why Miko/Belkar can't hurt him, etc. and may be able to explain sending Miko/Windstriker flying, by using some sort of telekinesis (the logic would be, that's what MitD has always used to grab stuff, since he has no hands); and the other is the Xenocrysth).




I do agree that the 30-STR baseline should be listed in the FBS requirements as well - although if B, C or F passes the vote, then that would happen anyway, of course.
I think it's unnecessarily redundant, but it also is just a few characters. Added.Any reason why that requirement should exist, beyond explaining hitting Miko/Windstriker in the Tower Scene? (Genuine question, I might have missed something.)

If not, then IMO FBS Condition #2 in its current wording is superior to a sheer STR requirement, and already covers that (in other words, FBS Condition #2 can be met either by sufficient physical strength, which by consensus is >=30 at the very least, or by other plausible means.)


Edit - just to clarify, by "current wording of FBS Condition #2", I meant the wording of the past few years up to a few minutes ago.

[Quartz]

Any reason why that requirement should exist, beyond explaining hitting Miko/Windstriker in the Tower Scene? (Genuine question, I might have missed something.)

I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.

[Sir_Norbert]

There are two that I feel could be interesting candidates and I'd like them to receive a fair evaluation, something which is more likely to happen if they aren't blatantly failing to meet the official shortlist of criteria as soon as we start. (Ha-Naga, which AFAIK, is Epic, has Wish, has yellow eyes, high Charisma, a Resistance ability that could explain why Miko/Belkar can't hurt him, etc. and may be able to explain sending Miko/Windstriker flying, by using some sort of telekinesis (the logic would be, that's what MitD has always used to grab stuff, since he has no hands); and the other is the Xenocrysth).

I mean, you can always re-read the last several threads if you like. Ha-Naga has been discussed and evaluated ad nauseam.

Now that option I exists, I change my vote to C > B > I > Z > !(D,E).

[Quebbster]

I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.

I find it unlikely that the MitD would suggest a "who can hit the lightest" contest and then use some sort of telekinesis ability instead of just hitting Miko. But that's just me.
But a Strength below 30 probably shouldn't be disqualifying if there is another way to explain the Tower scene.

[Gareth235]

My best guesses - and they are just guesses - is that the MITD will be something even we non gamers can recognise. I wonder if he might be the son of one of the (allegedly extinct) Eastern Gods?
(I also wondered if “the other Dark One” might be related to the actual Dark One, but surely Redcloak would have recognised him. Ignore me, I’m rambling.)

[Quebbster]

My best guesses - and they are just guesses - is that the MITD will be something even we non gamers can recognise. I wonder if he might be the son of one of the (allegedly extinct) Eastern Gods?
(I also wondered if “the other Dark One” might be related to the actual Dark One, but surely Redcloak would have recognised him. Ignore me, I’m rambling.)

Very unlikely due to stuff happening in Start of Darkness.

[b_jonas]

Heck this thread got long quickly.

Let me list the sizes and strengths for some of the monsters currently in the FBS section. Can you help me out here? Originally I wanted to know if option F would leave too few entries in the FBS, but even apart from that, if size is so important to us, I hope you'll mention the sizes explicitly in the entries when you edit them.

Athasian Nightmare Beast: Huge, Str 30.
Glabrezu: Large, Str 31.
Hagunemnon (Protean): Large, Str 53.
Hunting Horror: maybe Huge?, Str 34.
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Medium, Str ?
Slaad, White: Large, Str 36.
Slaad, Black: Huge, Str 42.
Uvuudaum: Large, Str 39.
Xenocrysth: Gargantuan, Str 43.
Zodar: Medium, Str 45.


have no FBS entries that are Medium or smaller, So the Carbosilicate amorph is Large?

Update: edited the size to the Amorph, Slaad, Xenocrysth. Thanks, Grey Wolf.
Update 2020-07-19: added precise data to Slaad and strength to Xenocrysth, thanks Jasdoif.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I find it unlikely that the MitD would suggest a "who can hit the lightest" contest and then use some sort of telekinesis ability instead of just hitting Miko. But that's just me.
Not just you. Other than "because otherwise my suggestion won't explain the scene", I don't recall ever hearing a reason anywhere solid that'd explain why MitD would propose a hitting lightly game, and then proceed to use either strength-enhancing abilities or, if somehow "hitting" can really be translated to "spellcasting", and MitD, despite at that point still not being aware of his powers, tapping into it it on purpose, and selecting a ludicrously powerful level 8 or 9 spell. The sheer amount of stretching of meaning of language, and the jumping of the gun on MitD's development is well past the reasonableness horizon.


My best guesses - and they are just guesses - is that the MITD will be something even we non gamers can recognise. I wonder if he might be the son of one of the (allegedly extinct) Eastern Gods?
(I also wondered if “the other Dark One” might be related to the actual Dark One, but surely Redcloak would have recognised him. Ignore me, I’m rambling.)

Please be aware of the standard issues with any kind of deity suggestion, as listed in 3b:

First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.

In your case, you did narrow it down to "the Eastern gods"... but they're dead. Even if the snarl didn't kill them all, they've been out of belief and worshippers for billions of worlds. If their children aren't god-like to need prayer and worship and faith... then they are just people, not gods. Finally, if there are eastern gods still around, suddenly RC is not needed to seal the gates. Because of that, I think that the chance of them showing up in the plot is practically 0.

Also, the circus scene is quite clearly saying MitD is not easy to recognize? Not to mention that when Rich decided to make it a guessing game, I'd imagine he'd had wanted to pick a particularly obscure monster, if there were any that fit the bill of needs, just so the game would last. Not suggesting that need was above other considerations such as "how it'll fit in the plot" but that, if anything, he'd had stayed away from recognisable creatures.


So the Carbosilicate amorph is Large?

He can be. He can be ludicrously large, if fed enough, and he gains strength when he does. But no, he is Medium-ish, but I don't think that can be counted against him.

I have vague recollections that the white slaad is Huge and the black one is Large? Or maybe it was the other way round?

Xenocrysth is gargantuan.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

In #661, right before the Escape, it looks like Xykon breaks the walls of that tower. Does he? It doesn't look like he just comes in on the existing hole.

How does Xykon do that? Was the wall weakened by the gate explosion, or by some wall-weakening effect from the MitD? Was he using a spell? What spell? A magic item? Are azurite walls weak for some reason? Does Xykon just have 30 Str somehow? Unlikely for a human skeletal lich, sorcerer, but not impossible. Do liches get a Str penalty from their age category or from the age Xykon was when he died? Did Rich specifically put that wall breaking in to imply something about breaking walls to geeks who overanalyze his comic?

Yes, I'm asking this because of the tower scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In #661, right before the Escape, it looks like Xykon breaks the walls of that tower. Does he? It doesn't look like he just comes in on the existing hole.

There is a black aura around his hands, so magic of some description would be my guess. The scene seems to be conveying his anger boiling over into his magic. But if he needed an actual spell, he is fond of the meteors.

GW

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But again, if all the new entries that have been added were kept off only due to size, then by definition, we want to take a fresh look at all of them.

If Squire Doodad's prediction is correct that it may cause the list to swell to 40 entries, which we all agree is unwieldy, then the correct fix for that is to tighten the FBS criteria in the way the community prefers to do that, which is going to be by something OTHER than "species size must fit in the box" this time.

I agree with Grey Wolf that something that's "as poor a fit as Glabrezu, plus it's Colossal" shouldn't be on the list. If there's such chaff on the list, then that means it's up to us to tighten the requirements to keep it off.

For example, something I've always wanted to add to the FBS requirements would be a minimum CR. I think that when Xykon says "there's nothing in that tower that's scarier than you", that scene is a strict super-solid disqualifier of any lowish CR FBS candidates.

I suppose this comes down to how you view the use of the FBS list to begin with. Personally, I would much rather have it stay at a small size so that it can be a useful introduction than to have it balloon even if it lists more potential options. In the end, it’s not as though one can never either look at 3e or just pay attention to discussion happening in the thread about other potential options. (You’ll note I do still support option A, mostly because I don’t think it would actually expand the FBS list much. Looking at Spirare/Jasdoif‘s list, I think it’s likely we’d only add a few options on there as, for instance, the Ha-Naga and Ghour remain to weak.)

If there are other criteria out there that would help page down the list, I’d certainly be open to them. Clearly, the size one until recently was the way the community preferred to do it, but it’s possible other options exist. CR is definitely not one I‘d use.

[Joerg]

My vote: C > I > A > any of (G, H) > Z > E > B

Regarding the current strength criterion, my understanding was that strength 30+ is the only plausible explanation for the tower scene by thread consensus. So it was kind of implicit in requirement 2.

[Crusher]

Reviewing this list (I'll assume it's complete...

First off, you did a great job going through the list. Seriously, nice work.

Sadly, it’s not a complete list. For starters, I don’t see the Nexus Dragon (which I may have even said at the time probably wasn’t worth including as an actual guess because it obviously wasn’t MitD, in part because it was like CR3500 or something and a multi-verse scale threat).

If we pass A, I’ll bet 10 galactic units I can come up with at least 3 candidates not on 3e that more or less meet the criteria but are obviously way too big. In a day, let’s say.

Edit - Oooh, the Immortals Handbook only came out in 2007. I guess that was the issue with the Nexus Dragon. It's got some wild monsters.

Edit2 -


has yellow eyes

Ok, I'm probably going to regret this again, but where is the reference to the Ha-Naga having yellow eyes? Neither the Epic Handbook nor the SRD mention it, and the eyes in the artwork are just regular, non-yellow, non-glowing eyes.

[b_jonas]

For the vote concerning reorganization of section 3a in first posts, my vote is D (remove FBS section) would be best, then F (destroy it so everyone finds it useless and ignores it), FI (same), E (remove but make popularity vote section), B, C, CI, Z, BI.

[LadyEowyn]

I’m voting for option A (remove the size limitation, leave all else the same).

[lio45]

Now that it's pretty clear Z isn't going to win this time, it starts to be worth actually voting for the option I prefer over the ones I like slightly less, so I'll update my vote to

A, !Z

[Jasdoif]

Let me list the sizes and strengths for some of the monsters currently in the FBS section. Can you help me out here? Originally I wanted to know if option F would leave too few entries in the FBS, but even apart from that, if size is so important to us, I hope you'll mention the sizes explicitly in the entries when you edit them.

Athasian Nightmare Beast: Huge, Str 30.
Glabrezu: Large, Str 31.
Hagunemnon (Protean): Large, Str 53.
Hunting Horror: maybe Huge?, Str 34.
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Medium, Str ?
Slaad: maybe Large for black Slaad and huge for white Slaad, Str ?
Uvuudaum: Large, Str 39.
Xenocrysth: Gargantuan, Str ?.
Zodar: Medium, Str 45.White slaad is Large and Str 36, black slaad is Huge and Str 42, xenocrysth is Gargantuan and Str 43.

[Ortho]

I'll place my votes for A > C > !E > !Z

The size restriction has caused nearly two threads worth of arguments. Let's just axe it. And if not, at least make it as lenient as possible.

E will be an utter headache to keep track of, and I disagree with only showcasing X amount of candidates anyways.






Also, i am confused as to why option A has an asterisk on it given that it is a simple removal of one of the FBS requirements, as near as i can tell, while option E, which requires an ill defined new system, does not. The asterisk represents an expectation that people who vote for it come up with whatever it actually requires, yes?

No, the asterisk indicates that that option triggers my "if you guys vote for this, you better do the hard part of the job" clause


I've never had to pull the trigger on this option before now, but I added it back at the very start, because there was a vocal minority asking to divide 3e into a point system where each scene gave a suggestion a point, and then "we" were supposed to tally the points, etc. It look like such a horrendous amount of work that I put in a escape clause that I would be allowed to refuse to do consensus votes that I just could not face. Admittedly, finding all the large monsters that would now be FBS are not quite as bad as that, but it is bad enough I'm giving fair warning that I will NOT be finding them all - I'll expect someone who voted for it to give me the list.

Grey Wolf

I'm missing something. Wouldn't any change to FBS criteria require us to reevaluate the candidates? I'm not seeing how option A is more strenuous than... well, any other option except I or Z.

[3Power]

As much as the protean has not convinced me, I don't think you're giving it a fair shake here. If Escape can be explained by protean's shapeshifting, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the earthquake could too, if it's not just a function of the large strength, which the protean has. additionally, the fluff does imply that while it can speak all languages, they generally only speak their weird protean language that's hard to recognize as a language, which explains the BGH lines just fine. And If I say a living pile of boiling shapeshifter coming to attack me, I might be inclined to call it a beast.

AFAIK, no sort of Earthquake ability that the protean could use has been found. Regardless, I have turned it into a :smallconfused: for the strength. I have also turned the language issue into a :smallconfused: The beast thing is already a :smallconfused:, which indicates there are points to be made on either side.


The Protean shouldn't have both a :smallfrown: for not having Wish and also for Greater Teleport being inconsistent (though we do have evidence he has met a creature that can teleport, in the form of a teleporting beetle thing in one of the books); it should just be that the most viable explanations for the Escape scene involve a lucky shapeshift. It has two :smallfrown: because it is strictly worse twice over. It doesn't have wish, which makes it strictly worse than creatures that do, and it doesn't have greater teleport, which makes it strictly worse than creatures that do. It does have an ability that lets it borrow an ex ability that acts like the spell greater teleport, but that is worse than just having it because it violates occams razor.


Meanwhile, we've argued at length and concluded among the majority of us that there's a logical explanation working within MitD and the fluff that means a Protean MitD could maintain 2 eyes, and also that he wouldn't be normally speaking Common.The entire point of my list was to bypass community consensus on issues like this and provide fully factual writeups. The protean's eye issue has :smallfrown: because not only does it not have the right kind of eyes, the explanation for why it doesn't goes against it's very nature.


and in general the Ha-Naga part completely disregards the size issue (removing the size restriction wouldn't stop size from being an issue) and that STR for a Colossal creature is :smallfrown: worthy no matter which way you slice it.The list explicitly works under the assumption that Rich took the creature, shrunk it's size, and made no other changes to HD, STR, or anything else. Size will never be reflected on that list for any creature above medium.


Ha-Naga: Might not fit 2, debatable. Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements. Those problems are also purely grey wolf's opinions. Ha-naga are listed as speaking no languages (but are subject to the same Bonus INT languages as all monsters, including those that DO list language), and as discussed before the undead thing requires taking sarcastic redcloak seriously. Regardless, yes, neither is an FBS requirement.


Ok, I'm probably going to regret this again, but where is the reference to the Ha-Naga having yellow eyes? Neither the Epic Handbook nor the SRD mention it, and the eyes in the artwork are just regular, non-yellow, non-glowing eyes.
The eyes of a naga are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic inner light. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/naga.htm)

A naga has a long, snakelike body covered with glistening scales and a more or less human face. A typical specimen ranges in length from 10 to 20 feet and weighs between 200 and 500 pounds, but nagas 100 feet or more in length (such as the largest ha-nagas) are also known. The eyes of a naga are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic light.

All nagas have long, snakelike bodies covered with glistening scales and more or less human faces. A bright naga is 15feet long and weighs about 500 pounds. Its eyes are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic inner light.
Yellow eyes (https://static-2.gumroad.com/res/gumroad/9677904945329/asset_previews/7d6f883d9cd8d7c2f0ba96a5a8d75ac2/retina/AMFES_Spring2_ShowCover.png)

Essentially, the Ha-naga missing the glowing eyes bit in the SRD and epic handbook is an odd omission, much like their lack of a language entry, as the mention of the burning hypnotic eyes is mentioned in the general description of naga in each other source.

[lio45]

You can't really use "violates Occam's Razor" as an argument in a story where it's already been established that Probability is always going to bend over for the pleasure of The Plot like a cheap whore.

:P

Both Sleeplax and Protean "benefit" from this argument when it comes to the Escape - to paraphrase Ruck from his essay (without going back to look at his exact words), what's important here isn't that it's probable, merely that it's possible.

[Keltest]

I think any attempt to bypass community consensus in a community run thread is going to be received very poorly.

[lio45]

I think any attempt to bypass community consensus in a community run thread is going to be received very poorly.More or less. If you feel "community consensus" is wrong, you can try to work on that, and maybe someday, succeed.

For example, I've firmly disagreed with FBS Condition #6 ("fits in the box") for years now. This vote looks like it's finally going to work, but it wasn't easy. This type of change pretty much always has to begin with "some people dare to question current community consensus".

[3Power]

You can't really use "violates Occam's Razor" as an argument in a story where it's already been established that Probability is always going to bend over for the pleasure of The Plot like a cheap whore.
Watch me.


I think any attempt to bypass community consensus in a community run thread is going to be received very poorly. The community has the FBS.

[Keltest]

The community has the FBS.

By all mean, feel free to keep and rate your own personal opinion in whatever format you wish. I wouldnt hold my breath for being incorporated into the opening posts given that, at the end of the day, it is an opinion piece and speaks only for you.

Also, i notice that you apply one blanket rule as a plus for the Ha-naga, but insist that we ignore another one that would be a minus. The idea of your objectivity is not being well built here.

[LadyEowyn]

I'm missing something. Wouldn't any change to FBS criteria require us to reevaluate the candidates? I'm not seeing how option A is more strenuous than... well, any other option except I or Z.
Yeah, I’m confused by this too. Option A is “remove the size requirement from FBS”. That’s all. There’s no notable work associated with it. It’s a one-line edit. So it’s hard to understand why it, and no other options, is marked with the asterisk.

GreyWolf, you don’t need to look up every possibility; it’s just that when they are proposed, size will no longer count as a negative.

[3Power]

By all mean, feel free to keep and rate your own personal opinion in whatever format you wish. I wouldnt hold my breath for being incorporated into the opening posts given that, at the end of the day, it is an opinion piece and speaks only for you.
At no point in the creation of this list was there an expectation that it would be in the OP.
That doesn't change the fact that Ruck's opinion piece is linked there though.


Also, i notice that you apply one blanket rule as a plus for the Ha-naga, but insist that we ignore another one that would be a minus. The idea of your objectivity is not being well built here.
It's a fact that the ha-naga is not listed as speaking any languages, thus making it ripe for lampshading by the BGHs. The idea that all naga have glowing eyes is a point in the ha-naga's favor, but it's not as if the creature that is the MiTD has to have glowing eyes, it just fits well.

[Keltest]

At no point in the creation of this list was there an expectation that it would be in the OP.
That doesn't change the fact that Ruck's opinion piece is linked there though.


It's a fact that the ha-naga is not listed as speaking any languages, thus making it ripe for lampshading by the BGHs. The idea that all naga have glowing eyes is a point in the ha-naga's favor, but it's not as if the creature that is the MiTD has to have glowing eyes, it just fits well.

The Ha-naga is intelligent enough to speak multiple languages. It would not be at all surprising that it speaks, though doing so in common would be convenient enough to possibly be worth lampshading.

[Jasdoif]

Yellow eyes (https://static-2.gumroad.com/res/gumroad/9677904945329/asset_previews/7d6f883d9cd8d7c2f0ba96a5a8d75ac2/retina/AMFES_Spring2_ShowCover.png)Since we're bringing up A Monster For Every Season (https://gumroad.com/l/amfesspring2); I would be remiss not to mention that while the water/guardian/dark/primordial naga do indeed have yellow eyes, the spirit naga has red eyes. (The bone naga has empty eye sockets with red lights, but I don't think that counts)

[catagent101]

Reviewing this list (I'll assume it's complete and there are no other Gargantuan+ proposed creatures in 3e), and assessing each one based on the 6 FBS requirements (assuming A passes the vote) to find new FBS candidates among them:

Akvan Div Prince: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 3 or 5, debatable.
Astral Dragon: Doesn't fit 2 or 3.
Astral Dreadnaught: Doesn't fit 1.
Brainstealer Dragon: Doesn't fit 5.
Brood Keeper: Doesn't fit 1, 2 or 3.
Corpse Tearer Linnorm: Potential FBS candidate. Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement. (Perhaps it should be added?)
Dragon: Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
Draknor: Doesn't fit 1 or 7.
Draeden: Doesn't fit 7. Far larger than the typical Colossal, potentially disqualifying exception even if 6 is removed. Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Dread Linnorm: Doesn't fit 7.
Epic Dragon: Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
Fiendwurm: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 1, debatable.
Ghour: Potential FBS candidate. Problems with alignment and CR, but those aren't FBS requirements.
Giant Snowman: Doesn't fit 1.
Grootslang: Doesn't fit 1 or 5.
Gug: Doesn't fit 2.
Ha-Naga: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 2, debatable (as proven by how much it's been debated; consensus seems against it, though). Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.
King-Kong descendant: Doesn't fit 1.
Lethus Dragon: Doesn't fit 5.
Li Lung (Earth Dragon): Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
Neothelid: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 2, debatable. No eyes, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Nessie the Loch Ness Monster: Doesn't fit 1.
Shadow Dragon: Doesn't fit 1.
Titan, Elder: Doesn't fit 3. Language problems, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Ulgurstasta Sorcerer: Doesn't fit 2 or 4.

Trimming down to exclusively potential FBS candidates among them:

Akvan Div Prince: Might not fit 3 or 5, debatable.
Corpse Tearer Linnorm: Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement.
Fiendwurm: Might not fit 1, debatable.
Ghour: Problems with alignment and CR, but those aren't FBS requirements.
Ha-Naga: Might not fit 2, debatable. Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.
Neothelid: Might not fit 2, debatable. No eyes, but that's not an FBS requirement.

That makes 6 plausible additions when ignoring size, which may need discussion. 2 appear to fit the FBS requirements well (even if not necessarily the MitD; they have non-FBS cons), and the other 4 are debatable on whether they actually fit the requirements or not.


Thank you!

Okay, so I did some research on each of these:

Akvan Div Prince: Published in the Pathfinder Bestiay 3 in January 2011 2012, and not a Tome of Horrors import according to the license text. Came faaaar too late.
Corpse-Tearer Linnorm: Has DR/magic, which would be easily bypassed by Belkar's weapons. AC is less than the a nightcrawler, which the Order fought successfully (although it was a smaller version). Point is it isn't particularly impressive defensively from what I can tell.
Fiendwurm: no explanation for the escape, O'Chul & Vaarsuvius did not arrive in the Abyss.
Ghour: 28 Strength, insufficient for the tower scene and no alternative explanation.
Ha-Naga: Insufficient Strength for the tower scene; telekinesis explanation is not sufficient to even throw a pony (https://www.horsemart.co.uk/community/article/how-to-health/what-is-the-average-weight-of-a-horse-) (let alone a horse that has been eating a lot of Heavenly Oats™ feed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)).
Neothelid: Former FBS member; perhaps the most plausible candidate. Seems like it generally fits the FBS criteria. DR 5/- may not be sufficient (Miko is dealing at least 1d10+1 damage with her katanas, maybe more if she has a higher Strength than 13 or magic weapons, but she could have rolled badly).


Seems like the neothelid may be the only new entry. This does not include all the countless dragons though, that might change things up.

[Keltest]

The dragons generally fail the circus scene do they not? By virtue of being entirely too iconic, generally.

[catagent101]

The dragons generally fail the circus scene do they not? By virtue of being entirely too iconic, generally.

Some of them can look a lot weirder (https://dailybestiary.blogspot.com/2017/10/nightmare-dragon.html). Note this is a Pathfinder example, so this wouldn't be an MiTD candidate.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, I’m confused by this too. Option A is “remove the size requirement from FBS”. That’s all. There’s no notable work associated with it. It’s a one-line edit. So it’s hard to understand why it, and no other options, is marked with the asterisk.

GreyWolf, you don’t need to look up every possibility; it’s just that when they are proposed, size will no longer count as a negative.

The work is in checking all the proposed creatures that weren't in 3a to figure out which of them would need to move, making the move, and probably giving them the more-detailed writeups that 3a currently has as compared to 3e.

[LadyEowyn]

The work is in checking all the proposed creatures that weren't in 3a to figure out which of them would need to move, making the move, and probably giving them the more-detailed writeups that 3a currently has as compared to 3e.
Ah, okay. Thanks.

[Crusher]

Thank you!

Okay, so I did some research on each of these:

Akvan Div Prince: Published in the Pathfinder Bestiay 3 in January 2011 2012, and not a Tome of Horrors import according to the license text. Came faaaar too late.
Corpse-Tearer Linnorm: Has DR/magic, which would be easily bypassed by Belkar's weapons. AC is less than the a nightcrawler, which the Order fought successfully (although it was a smaller version). Point is it isn't particularly impressive defensively from what I can tell.
Fiendwurm: no explanation for the escape, O'Chul & Vaarsuvius did not arrive in the Abyss.
Ghour: 28 Strength, insufficient for the tower scene and no alternative explanation.
Ha-Naga: Insufficient Strength for the tower scene; telekinesis explanation is not sufficient to even throw a pony (https://www.horsemart.co.uk/community/article/how-to-health/what-is-the-average-weight-of-a-horse-) (let alone a horse that has been eating a lot of Heavenly Oats™ feed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)).
Neothelid: Former FBS member; perhaps the most plausible candidate. Seems like it generally fits the FBS criteria. DR 5/- may not be sufficient (Miko is dealing at least 1d10+1 damage with her katanas, maybe more if she has a higher Strength than 13, but she could have rolled badly).


Seems like the neothelid may be the only new entry. This does not include all the countless dragons though, that might change things up.

Also nice work. I’m actually kind of impressed at how well people have jumped on the “doing the legwork” part of passing A (and to a lesser extent B and C). It’s really cool.

[lio45]

That's not a burden that needs to fall on anyone in particular, though. As someone pointed out already, worst case, no extra work for anyone: we can simply eliminate FBS Condition #6, and leave it at that. From that moment on, anyone who wishes to nominate some creature and "minimally defend it", whether it's a new one or one that is already in 3e, then that creature will be judged according to the new (size-free) set of FBS conditions.

And to answer Crusher regarding the yellow eyes: I did make sure to specify that those characteristics are all "AFAIK", because most of my Ha-Naga knowledge comes through the lens of 3Power. (I was going to refer you to him on the question of the yellow eyes, but that won't be necessary.)

And to Sir_Norbert: yes, I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, but from what I recall, a good chunk of that discussion was "waaaaay too big, it's a no go, as per official FBS rules; next topic!"

[Crusher]

And to answer Crusher regarding the yellow eyes: I did make sure to specify that those characteristics are all "AFAIK", because most of my Ha-Naga knowledge comes through the lens of 3Power. (I was going to refer you to him on the question of the yellow eyes, but that won't be necessary.)

And to Sir_Norbert: yes, I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, but from what I recall, a good chunk of that discussion was "waaaaay too big, it's a no go, as per official FBS rules; next topic!"

Oh, sure, that’s how I took your post. I didn’t mean that I disbelieved you, I just didn’t know where the evidence was.

For the Ha-Naga, personally, I think it’s too big but that’s maybe... 5th on my list of problems with it. Ok, I’m out so this is off the top of my head...

#1 - lack of STR (which is compounded by its size. I don’t like Telekinesis as an answer but I’ll explain why later)
#2 - Doesn’t look weird enough. Snake with a woman’s head isn’t that weird or hard to identify
#3 - Defenses aren’t great (I’m now second guessing if this is accurate)
#4 - Could potentially cast Raise a dead
#5 - Too big. Which, as I mentioned when asking for an FBS rule-change vote, I don’t think is a problem on its own. It’s only a problem because it compounds #1. Shrink it down to Huge and it has a STR of 11. That’s a problem.

And beyond that, speaking only for myself, the Ha-Naga is an inelegant solution to the problem. It is only minimally better a candidate than a human with the Ha-Naga’s casting ability would be.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, sure, that’s how I took your post. I didn’t mean that I disbelieved you, I just didn’t know where the evidence was.

For the Ha-Naga, personally, I think it’s too big but that’s maybe... 5th on my list of problems with it. Ok, I’m out so this is off the top of my head...

#1 - lack of STR (which is compounded by its size. I don’t like Telekinesis as an answer but I’ll explain why later)
#2 - Doesn’t look weird enough. Snake with a woman’s head isn’t that weird or hard to identify
#3 - Defenses aren’t great
#4 - Could potentially cast Raise a dead
#5 - Too big. Which, as I mentioned when asking for an FBS rule-change vote, I don’t think is a problem on its own. It’s only a problem because it compounds #1. Shrink it down to Huge and it has a STR of 11. That’s a problem.


It is also:
#6 not surprising it can talk, as Keltest mentioned a page or so ago,
#7 has no limbs to carry stuff with of pull on ropes,

#7b if we're going with the handwave "oh, it cast mage hand all the time to accomplish everyday tasks", one has to wonder what took RC so long to figure out if psionics are a thing in OotS.
#8 the spell that "explains" the tower doesn't, as someone pointed a page ago.
#9 a child/pre-teen would not have access to the level 8 & 9 spells needed (e.g. wish)

But, according to lio45, all this is just "too big, next topic", it seems.:smallannoyed:

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.

"Rule of funny" as a justification for MITD's powers would destroy the guessing game.


Not just you. Other than "because otherwise my suggestion won't explain the scene", I don't recall ever hearing a reason anywhere solid that'd explain why MitD would propose a hitting lightly game, and then proceed to use either strength-enhancing abilities or, if somehow "hitting" can really be translated to "spellcasting", and MitD, despite at that point still not being aware of his powers, tapping into it it on purpose, and selecting a ludicrously powerful level 8 or 9 spell. The sheer amount of stretching of meaning of language, and the jumping of the gun on MitD's development is well past the reasonableness horizon.

Agreed, and while I haven't voted yet, I've been leaning towards making no changes or minimal changes (and am strongly against altering or removing the FBS) because the bolded strikes me as the primary reason people are interested in changes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agreed, and while I haven't voted yet, I've been leaning towards making no changes or minimal changes (and am strongly against altering or removing the FBS) because the bolded strikes me as the primary reason people are interested in changes.

Let's be clear, though: the size vote only intersects the Tower scene because of the strength issue. Nothing in the current vote (since I removed lio45's entry on his "request") waters down the Tower scene filter to include magic.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Let's be clear, though: the size vote only intersects the Tower scene because of the strength issue. Nothing in the current vote (since I removed lio45's entry on his "request") waters down the Tower scene filter to include magic.

Grey Wolf? It's plainly the other way around: nothing in the current FBS criterion about the Tower Scene excludes magic.

Exact wording, which doesn't exclude magic nor make physical strength mandatory:
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)

And my opinion on the appropriateness of the current wording of FBS Condition #2:
I wouldn't change that wording, it's literally perfect as is (and unarguable, IMO - since it's so general. It would be like trying to disagree with "Any theory, to be considered, needs to be able to explain the observations.")

[Crusher]

Regarding TK instead of STR, other folks have laid out the various concerns with sheer power, but my issue is different. And two-fold.

First, if MitD is using STR, the Tower scene means they’re attempting to hit lightly but even his lightest swing is gigantically hard.

But if MitD is a Ha-Naga who uses Mage Hand daily for interacting with things, then the issue is different. This is already a spell with a very low power ceiling. But, in an attempt to hit as lightly as possible, he instead uses a completely different spell which is gigantically more powerful.

I get that MitD has powers he doesn’t understand, but as a Ha-Naga, he DOES understand Mage Hand since he uses it daily. It’d be like if I wanted to crack an egg, and I haven’t cracked an egg before. But I understand the basic idea and I have a bowl I use daily.

If I accidentally hit the egg too hard against the bowl and smoosh it, that’d be understandable. I don’t have much practice. But me head-butting the egg (using a completely different ability when I already have practice at the right tool for the job) would just be weird. To me, that’s how it comes across.

Secondly, Ha-Naga’s have powerful tails, with which they’re good at hitting people. Sure, they generally don’t like melee, but MitD just proposed a “hitting” game. He knows what “hitting” means, and as a Ha-Naga he’d have a way of doing it. It’d be weird of him to then cast a high-level spell instead.

[Crusher]

But, according to lio45, all this is just "too big, next topic", it seems.:smallannoyed:

Grey Wolf

I think you might have misread Lio45’s post. They aren’t saying they think we should brush past objections and accept the Ha-Naga. They’re saying they got the perception people were saying the Ha-Naga was too big, and then dismissed its good points.

I feel that’s an inaccurate memory of the discussion, rather than a brusque gesture.

[lio45]

Regarding TK instead of STR, other folks have laid out the various concerns with sheer power, but my issue is different. And two-fold.

First, if MitD is using STR, the Tower scene means they’re attempting to hit lightly but even his lightest swing is gigantically hard.

But if MitD is a Ha-Naga who uses Mage Hand daily for interacting with things, then the issue is different. This is already a spell with a very low power ceiling. But, in an attempt to hit as lightly as possible, he instead uses a completely different spell which is gigantically more powerful.

I get that MitD has powers he doesn’t understand, but as a Ha-Naga, he DOES understand Mage Hand since he uses it daily. It’d be like if I wanted to crack an egg, and I haven’t cracked an egg before. But I understand the basic idea and I have a bowl I use daily.

If I accidentally hit the egg too hard against the bowl and smoosh it, that’d be understandable. I don’t have much practice. But me head-butting the egg (using a completely different ability when I already have practice at the right tool for the job) would just be weird. To me, that’s how it comes across.

Secondly, Ha-Naga’s have powerful tails, with which they’re good at hitting people. Sure, they generally don’t like melee, but MitD just proposed a “hitting” game. He knows what “hitting” means, and as a Ha-Naga he’d have a way of doing it. It’d be weird of him to then cast a high-level spell instead.I agree with everything you just wrote above; no doubt the simplest and most direct explanation for the Tower Scene is ridiculously high STR - which _is_ how some of the main front-runners explain that scene. (Among those, my favorite two, Sleeplax and Protean.)

That said, there could conceivably be other ways of explaining what's observed in the Tower Scene.

[Crusher]

I agree with everything you just wrote above; no doubt the simplest and most direct explanation for the Tower Scene is ridiculously high STR - which _is_ how some of the main front-runners explain that scene. (Among those, my favorite two, Sleeplax and Protean.)

That said, there could conceivably be other ways of explaining what's observed in the Tower Scene.

Sure, I agree. The D&D world is full of odd things. I can envision some kind of Gambit (X-Men) like monster that imbueS things with kinetic energy by touching them or looking at them, inflicting damage or flinging them away. That’d work pretty well (for the Earthquake, too). But we don’t have anything like that, afaik.

At the end of the day, the list is practical more than anything else. My default question when someone wants to change a rule is “What candidate would it affect?” If the answer is “None”, then why bother? I like arguing minutia as much as the next person, but to actually get things done you need a concrete example, because that’s what the discussion is about, really. The Xeno...cryth? Is entirely responsible for this vote attempt having traction when the last one didn’t.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ah, mea culpa, I got those mixed up. If I ever have time to do proper research I might change my guess and add a suggestion, then.

~Malloon
Not to worry. You're hardly the first to think that because I separate templates and creatures, that somehow means they aren't "allowed". In fact, thinking back on it, it comes up often enough I've gone ahead and written it into the FAQ. So if anything, thanks for giving me the push in the right direction.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

The Ha-naga is intelligent enough to speak multiple languages. It would not be at all surprising that it speaks, though doing so in common would be convenient enough to possibly be worth lampshading.

It would be surprising for a creature to speak if your BGH manual makes no mention of it, despite every other creature that speaks mentioning it.

It's funny how everyone overlooked that little section of the SRD for years and as soon as someone spotted it Rich and the BGHs automatically knew about it as well.


Ha-Naga: Insufficient Strength for the tower scene; telekinesis explanation is not sufficient to even throw a pony (let alone a horse that has been eating a lot of Heavenly Oats™ feed).
The part of the reveal I look the most forward to is when it's revealed just how many ridiculous one-off gags were used as dealbreakers by the people of this thread.


#3 - Defenses aren’t great (I’m now second guessing if this is accurate)
The DR was heavily nerfed from 15 to 5 in the change to 3.5, in what, as time has gone on, I am increasingly convinced is a careless typo, especially since the version printed in Serpent Kingdom undoes it (And fixes a few more things, such as adding eschew materials and removing quicken spell)



#9 a child/pre-teen would not have access to the level 8 & 9 spells needed (e.g. wish)
Know this for a fact, do you?


I agree with everything you just wrote above; no doubt the simplest and most direct explanation for the Tower Scene is ridiculously high STR - which _is_ how some of the main front-runners explain that scene. (Among those, my favorite two, Sleeplax and Protean.)
That said, there could conceivably be other ways of explaining what's observed in the Tower Scene.
You know, like how we're pretending the escape could be teleport.


Words
I saw the deleted post, in case you think no one saw what you said.

[catagent101]

The part of the reveal I look the most forward to is when it's revealed just how many ridiculous one-off gags were used as dealbreakers by the people of this thread.

Well... there was also the bit about MiTD being incapable of handling Xykon's phylactery without breaking it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) Or at the very least Power Ranger toys. In other words the Giant has made a joke about MiTD's strength at least twice (potentially 3 times if you count the earthquake scene).

Now that I think about it, the earthquake scene is kind of the reverse of the tower scene.

Tower scene: paladin captured -> feat of strength (punch) -> MiTD feels bad -> paladin escapes
Earthquake scene: paladin escapes -> MiTD feels bad -> feat of strength (earthquake) -> paladin captured

Maybe I'm missing some details or am reducing it down too much (I haven't checked the scenes at the moment) but it seems interesting nonetheless.

[lio45]

The Ha-naga is intelligent enough to speak multiple languages. It would not be at all surprising that it speaks [...]It would be surprising for a creature to speak if your BGH manual makes no mention of it, despite every other creature that speaks mentioning it.

It's funny how everyone overlooked that little section of the SRD for years and as soon as someone spotted it Rich and the BGHs automatically knew about it as well.
Yeah, if we accept that anything sufficiently intelligent automatically speaks multiple languages, then we kinda have a problem, because "whatever MitD is" has to both be dumb enough not to speak anything yet intelligent enough to play Go, perform trenchant political analysis, etc.

I see pretty much only one way to reconcile all the observations: MitD is a high INT creature that doesn't have "Speaks Common" as an explicit characteristic, and in this universe, high INT doesn't automatically mean "speaks Common".

[b_jonas]

The dragons generally fail the circus scene do they not? By virtue of being entirely too iconic, generally. Except for the Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon, which looks exactly like a mutant freak that you would exhibit in an old-timey circus even if they do nothing. The main problem is that it can't do the escape, but most other dragons can't either.

[Keltest]

Yeah, if we accept that anything sufficiently intelligent automatically speaks multiple languages, then we kinda have a problem, because "whatever MitD is" has to both be dumb enough not to speak anything yet intelligent enough to play Go, perform trenchant political analysis, etc.

I see pretty much only one way to reconcile all the observations: MitD is a high INT creature that doesn't have "Speaks Common" as an explicit characteristic, and in this universe, high INT doesn't automatically mean "speaks Common".

It being able to speak in common, specifically, was an afterthought. The primary surprise was that it speaks at all. Given that the MITD is obviously capable of speech, that rules out anatomical constraints against speech, so were left with "it normally chooses not to speak (to humans?) for whatever reason" as the most likely explanation.

ETA: and before anybody says it, the Ha-naga has a human face and enough intelligence to speak. There is no reason to be surprised that it speaks unless the SBGHs are woefully uninformed and cannot be taken as authority in the first place (which there is no evidence for).

[Doug Lampert]

C>B>Z

30 for huge is almost certainly too low. But I think 38 for huge may be a bit too high, and better too loose a standard than too tight.

Amend my vote to C>I>B>Z. The xeno whatever is an undersized gargantuan, it fits better than it's combination of size and strength would normally imply.

If adding !Anything else to the end of my vote would make a difference, do so, but I tend to think Z covers that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Amend my vote to C>I>B>Z. The xeno whatever is an undersized gargantuan, it fits better than it's combination of size and strength would normally imply.

If adding !Anything else to the end of my vote would make a difference, do so, but I tend to think Z covers that.

Indeed it does. Your vote has been updated.

GW

[Ariko]

H and I. And I want to register Xenocryst as my guess.

[Crusher]

You know, like how we're pretending the escape could be teleport.

Teleport on its own is a terrible answer for the Escape Scene. It requires a fantastically improbably lucky roll by MitD. That would make it a deal-breaker (instead of merely bad) if comparably improbable things hadn’t happened sufficiently often already for V and Elan to have joked about it... twice, I want to say?

However, if combined with some form of mind reading, telepathy (Unlikely since no one ever talks about talking to MitD telepathically) or trace teleport for MitD to find out where V came from, it actually becomes fine. While the fight was going on MitD could have been reading Vs mind or just chatting with them, finding out where a safe place was. Then MitD could simply teleport them there.

Wish is a better answer, but Teleport covers the minimum, especially with mind-reading.

[Mightymosy]

What do you people make of the scene in 709:

MitD talking about a cutting board instead of drawing board, and a demon roach questioning whether he had been drawn in the first place.


Seems like a weird joke to me, or I don't get the reference?
Or some hint? But at what does it point?

[Kish]

The creature has never actually been drawn, or this thread would not exist as everyone would know what he looks like.

I'm pretty confident you won't find a hint to the creature's identity in a fourth-wall-breaking joke about the comic's art.

[Mightymosy]

1. What about the cutting board then? What does it mean?
2. Why does the roach put it as a question then?

[Ortho]

1. What about the cutting board then? What does it mean?
2. Why does the roach put it as a question then?

The simplest explanation is that MitD meant to say "drawing board" and bungled the phrase. And the demon roaches were just making a snide remark.

I don't think there's anything to be gleaned from this scene except that the Giant has a self-deprecating sense of humor.

[Kish]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cutting-board?s=t

[Mightymosy]

Yeah I googled it and found what it is, but I don't get the joke

ETA:

Since I have always found it weird as just a joke, I had the feeling it might be half joke and half hint.

What I thought is that that scene might point to MitD coming from a media that is NOT about drawing (not drawn in the first place).

Is there some artist technique that specifically requires cutting boards? Like modeling statues from gypsum or something? I have no idea about this stuff, and it might also purely be a language thing, that's why I ask if someone else made something of this scene that I didn't think of.

[3Power]

Teleport on its own is a terrible answer for the Escape Scene. It requires a fantastically improbably lucky roll by MitD. That would make it a deal-breaker (instead of merely bad) if comparably improbable things hadn’t happened sufficiently often already for V and Elan to have joked about it... twice, I want to say?

However, if combined with some form of mind reading, telepathy (Unlikely since no one ever talks about talking to MitD telepathically) or trace teleport for MitD to find out where V came from, it actually becomes fine. While the fight was going on MitD could have been reading Vs mind or just chatting with them, finding out where a safe place was. Then MitD could simply teleport them there.

Wish is a better answer, but Teleport covers the minimum, especially with mind-reading.
The issue I have is with {Scrubbed} accepting ridiculously complex explanations for the escape scene while denying the possibility than say, Rich fudged the weight limit of telekenesis in order to make a joke.

It'd be nice to have some leeway for explanation believability.

[Keltest]

The issue I have is with {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} accepting ridiculously complex explanations for the escape scene while denying the possibility than say, Rich fudged the weight limit of telekenesis in order to make a joke.

It'd be nice to have some leeway for explanation believability.

We dont have any particularly simple answers for the escape scene. Even Wish kind of struggles to explain everything if you dont allow for some convenient coincidences or overly friendly interpretations.

The tower scene meanwhile is pretty straightforward. Using telekinesis or whatever for that scene requires that the monster be deliberately choosing to fail his own game, twice over: Once in choosing to use telekinesis in the first place instead of just headbutting them or whatever, and two in cranking up the power on it so high that it flings people across the landscape instead of actually lightly hitting them. A physical hit could allow that kind of mistake, a telekinetic strike could not.

[Quartz]

I find it unlikely that the MitD would suggest a "who can hit the lightest" contest and then use some sort of telekinesis ability instead of just hitting Miko. But that's just me.


But the Monster is a child. It may not be using the ability consciously.

[Keltest]

But the Monster is a child. It may not be using the ability consciously.

There arent a lot of creatures that use it as some sort of augment for an otherwise ordinary melee attack. Certainly not the Ha-naga, who would specifically have to cast a spell to get that kind of effect.

[Sir_Norbert]

And to Sir_Norbert: yes, I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, but from what I recall, a good chunk of that discussion was "waaaaay too big, it's a no go, as per official FBS rules; next topic!"

We're not robots and the FBS rules do not dictate our thoughts. If a good number of people responded "waaaaay too big, it's a no go" (and that part of your description of the discussion I agree with), then that's community consensus. Sure, it could turn out that the Monster is a Ha-Naga and we were all wrong, but it got tabled, we had the discussion, the majority of us were not convinced... with no new evidence for or against, what more is there to discuss?

[LadyEowyn]

We dont have any particularly simple answers for the escape scene. Even Wish kind of struggles to explain everything if you dont allow for some convenient coincidences or overly friendly interpretations.
How so? The Wish quality of “transport travellers” (moves the travellers to a desired destination without taking the caster with them) seems to describe the Escape pretty perfectly.

I agree that high strength in the best explanation for the Tower scene by a wide margin, but I’m not too hung up on the particular number for the STR score; Rich has been clear in his comments that precise adherence to rules and stats aren’t his priority or interest with story.

[Keltest]

How so? The Wish quality of “transport travellers” (moves the travellers to a desired destination without taking the caster with them) seems to describe the Escape pretty perfectly.

Because no matter what spell he uses to transport them, the MITD has no real idea where to send them to. Wish in particular is somewhat notorious for being unfriendly absent specific instructions. So we either have to allow that Wish was being unusuually friendly here, which is technically possible if not likely, or that he was somehow reading their minds to know exactly where to send them, which is not indicated anywhere.

[LadyEowyn]

Because no matter what spell he uses to transport them, the MITD has no real idea where to send them to. Wish in particular is somewhat notorious for being unfriendly absent specific instructions. So we either have to allow that Wish was being unusuually friendly here, which is technically possible if not likely, or that he was somehow reading their minds to know exactly where to send them, which is not indicated anywhere.
Something like “I want O-Chul to be with his friends” would explain him landing directly on top of Hinjo (rather than, say, in the exact location from which V left).

D&D is an interactive game. Wish is unfriendly if the DM wants it to be, and the DM might want it to be in order to prevent it from making things too easy and boring. But OOTS isn’t actually a multiplayer game, just a story taking place in a D&D-like setting.

[Keltest]

Something like “I want O-Chul to be with his friends” would explain him landing directly on top of Hinjo (rather than, say, in the exact location from which V left).

Most of O-chul's friends are dead. A vast majority of them, even. Like i said, it would require Wish being unusually friendly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Most of O-chul's friends are dead. A vast majority of them, even. Like i said, it would require Wish being unusually friendly.

And the closest O-Chul friend is standing in the tower. The Wish could have just moved them a foot closer to MitD. But it gets worse, of course, because MitD did not wish for "I want O-Chul to be with his friends", he wished for "escape". If that is the wish component of the Wish spell, it was exceedingly friendly to place O-Chul on top of Hinjo instead of a foot outside Goblinopia walls. It is even more friendly that V was taken along for the ride. English D&D is not user-friendly to single-word commands, as per the 3.0 command spell description (heck, the Spanish variant of the spell has a note saying "please pretend you are doing this in English, or the spell becomes too powerful". Ever since that, I've always wondered what the german version says, when you can cram into one word command an entire sequence of actions)

The thing about the shouting of the wrong word is that it doesn't match a spell or spell-like ability that requires precise verbal instructions to work. Compare that to teleport, that just requires you to picture the destination in your mind, and if you picture the wrong thing, it'll take you somewhere close to that, if you are lucky. What you shout is irrelevant to that spell (I mean, if you are casting it, you do need to say the spell words but that doesn't apply to SPL, EX or SU abilities, as far as I know - definitely not to EX and SU, anyway).

Does wish fit better than teleport despite all that, IMnpHO? Sure. But wish is not a perfect match by any stretch of the imagination.

Grey Wolf

[catagent101]

The other thing about wish is that if cast as a spell it requires XP, which MiTD does not necessarily have both due to the tendencies of monsters to have a lot of hit dice (thus raising their level to be higher than their CR) and MiTD's overall high power (which could mean a high Estimated Character Level even without hit die bloat).

The escape makes me think that MiTD maybe isn't a D&D creature, because I have yet to find a friendly "teleport someone else" spell or ability besides wish, the spell that can do anything if you word what you want carefully enough. Mind, I'm no expert in D&D, there might be one out there.

[Sir_Norbert]

English D&D is not user-friendly to single-word commands, as per the command spell description (heck, the Spanish variant of the spell has a note saying "please pretend you are doing this in English, or the spell becomes too powerful". Ever since that, I've always wondered what the german version says, when you can cram into one word command an entire sequence of actions)

German nouns can be compounded to quite ridiculous extents: any time English uses a noun as a modifier on another, as in "doghouse" or "shipping company", the German equivalent is likely to be a single word. Not verbs though.

However, there are so-called "polysynthetic languages" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language) where that kind of conglomeration of entire clauses into a single word is a real thing.

[Quartz]

"Rule of funny" as a justification for MITD's powers would destroy the guessing game.


In this case the Rule of Funny applies specificly and only to the holes left in the wall. Note there is a Miko-shaped hole and a Windstrider-shaped hole. Straight out of cartoons.

[Qwertystop]

And the closest O-Chul friend is standing in the tower. The Wish could have just moved them a foot closer to MitD. But it gets worse, of course, because MitD did not wish for "I want O-Chul to be with his friends", he wished for "escape". If that is the wish component of the Wish spell, it was exceedingly friendly to place O-Chul on top of Hinjo instead of a foot outside Goblinopia walls. It is even more friendly that V was taken along for the ride. English D&D is not user-friendly to single-word commands, as per the 3.0 command spell description (heck, the Spanish variant of the spell has a note saying "please pretend you are doing this in English, or the spell becomes too powerful". Ever since that, I've always wondered what the german version says, when you can cram into one word command an entire sequence of actions)

Huh. That seems interesting, yeah; anyone got pictures of that spell in different languages?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh. That seems interesting, yeah; anyone got pictures of that spell in different languages?

I should note that in 3.5 they seem to have patched it and now they list the commands you are allowed to use (unless I'm thinking of a completely different spell... it's been a while), rather than have a blanket "any one order you can think of", so I'm guessing even in English, there were substantial loopholes.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I should note that in 3.5 they seem to have patched it and now they list the commands you are allowed to use (unless I'm thinking of a completely different spell... it's been a while), rather than have a blanket "any one order you can think of", so I'm guessing even in English, there were substantial loopholes.

Grey Wolf

Evidently not enough for them to return back to "any one-word command" in 5e, although they make it explicit that the DM decides how they react and if it works.

[ReaderAt2046]

My top vote is Option I, followed by B, C, and Z.

Also, on a slight tangent, I think it would be worth adding a note to Section 2C to remind posters that the MITD expresses pleasure in the sunlight in his initial appearance in Start of Darkness, since we've had people proposing monsters that are burnt or harmed by light before.

[Joerg]

Hmm, reading the 3.5 spell description, it doesn't have a one word limit, it doesn't say that you have to explicitly say every detail of the wish out loud, and it says the spell is only 'unfriendly' if you wish for more than is listed in the examples.

So if the MitD wished for 'O-Chul and his wizard friend shall be transported away from here to where O-Chul would be most happy to be" and triggered that wish spell with the word 'escape', I see no reason why the spell shouldn't transport them to Hinjo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My top vote is Option I, followed by B, C, and Z.
So noted.


Also, on a slight tangent, I think it would be worth adding a note to Section 2C to remind posters that the MITD expresses pleasure in the sunlight in his initial appearance in Start of Darkness, since we've had people proposing monsters that are burnt or harmed by light before.

I don't have SoD at hand - can I get a page number & the exact quote, please? That'll make it easy for me to add (it'll go in section 1a, though, with all the other canon quotes).


Hmm, reading the 3.5 spell description, it doesn't have a one word limit, it doesn't say that you have to explicitly say every detail of the wish out loud, and it says the spell is only 'unfriendly' if you wish for more than is listed in the examples.

"By simply speaking aloud (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), you can alter reality to better suit you.". And no, Wish doesn't have a one word limit - that's command - but the reality is that MitD only used one word, regardless of how many he would have been allowed had it been Wish that he was using.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Hmm, reading the 3.5 spell description, it doesn't have a one word limit, it doesn't say that you have to explicitly say every detail of the wish out loud, and it says the spell is only 'unfriendly' if you wish for more than is listed in the examples.

So if the MitD wished for 'O-Chul and his wizard friend shall be transported away from here to where O-Chul would be most happy to be" and triggered that wish spell with the word 'escape', I see no reason why the spell shouldn't transport them to Hinjo.

The MITD has little to no tangible idea of where O-chul would be most happy to be. Also, given that O-chul is a paladin, that doesnt necessarily correspond to safety. So the Wish has to extrapolate that, which takes it beyond the simple transportation.

[Crusher]

The issue I have is with the hypocrisy of accepting ridiculously complex explanations for the escape scene while denying the possibility than say, Rich fudged the weight limit of telekenesis in order to make a joke.

It'd be nice to have some leeway for explanation believability.

Remember, it isn't GW_c or anyone else choosing to grant or not grant that leeway, its a group consensus.

Here's how I look at it, and you can make of it what you will. People are effectively decision-making algorithms. You, me, everyone. And each algorithm is structured differently. Everyone's specific variables are slightly different as is the accompanying weighting.

In the case of MitD candidates, each of us views the candidacies through the different lenses of our personal algorithms. Some put more weight on strictly following the FBS list, others more on how well a candidate fits from what they perceive to be the standpoint of the story, and others focus on non-FBS list criteria like eye color/position, probable skill proficiency (Knowledge: Spellcraft, perhaps) or other things. There's no right or wrong, its just how our individual mental wiring interacts with the puzzle.

To successfully get something on the FBS list, you have to "solve" 100 (or however many it really is, I have no idea) different algorithms with different variables and weightings, simultaneously. Most are willing to cut some slack in one area or another and still result in an acceptance, but each one is going to have different areas of increased or reduced tolerance.

I feel like you're focused on solving one algorithm, possibly GW_c's, when the actual success criteria requires solving 100. At any rate, this isn't intended as a criticism of your posts, I'm just sharing how I personally view the process of advocating for an FBS candidate and what I keep in mind when I try to do it.

[dmc91356]

Hmm, with the changes since my initial vote, I guess I am now going with:

C > B > F > I > Z

Thanks.

[Crusher]

I also do not remember if I ever officially voted on the monster so I want to cast my vote for protean.


And I want to register Xenocryst as my guess.

Both are recorded.

[Kish]

Wish is unfriendly if the DM wants it to be,
Yes, this.

Or even more precisely: Wish is one spell that has a large number of "this DM used my wording (or, more often, something vaguely related to my wording) against me" stories associated with it. That means neither that such is actually a trait of the spell* nor that a good DM/writer, faced with a Wish which is by no means out of bounds for the power of a ninth-level spell, would do that.

*Previous editions do bear some responsibility for this, in that they talk about how to use the wording of unbalanced Wishes against the wisher. But even there, the DM is only supposed to start the hostile parsing if the intent of the Wish is actually abusive. 3.0ed and 3.5ed are much more straightforward and much less obnoxious about limiting the spell.

[Mightymosy]

I wonder who is doing the actual wishing.
Would make it cleaner if MitD was *granting* O Chul's unspoken wish, wouldnt it?

Like, MitD's species is good at reading people's wishes and fullfilling them, with magic.
Thats why he seems like super prey to the big game hunters, an oddity to the circus visitors, a friend to the goblin children, a powerful monster to Redcload and Xykon, a formidable foe to Miko, and again a desperately needed friend to O chul.
Later, a powerful beast to Oona, and someone who understands her problems with being a not really appreciated goblin subspecies.
Also, he kinda understood Tsukikos desires...

Maybe thats just high empathy, but looking at some scenes he seems to become what people wish for/need or expect.

Note the words in the escape scene. He says "you NEED to escape"

If only Djinn werent so umderpowered in D&D

[Crusher]

I wonder who is doing the actual wishing.
Would make it cleaner if MitD was *granting* O Chul's unspoken wish, wouldnt it?

Like, MitD's species is good at reading people's wishes and fullfilling them, with magic.
Thats why he seems like super prey to the big game hunters, an oddity to the circus visitors, a friend to the goblin children, a powerful monster to Redcload and Xykon, a formidable foe to Miko, and again a desperately needed friend to O chul.
Later, a powerful beast to Oona, and someone who understands her problems with being a not really appreciated goblin subspecies.
Also, he kinda understood Tsukikos desires...

Maybe thats just high empathy, but looking at some scenes he seems to become what people wish for/need or expect.

Note the words in the escape scene. He says "you NEED to escape"

If only Djinn werent so umderpowered in D&D

Yep. It’s part of the reason the Glabrezu has held on decently well despite being a little underpowered and an embodiment of Chaotic Evil. Granting people wishes is it’s thing, overlooking the small problem of it expecting the wish to used for an evil purpose.

Just speculating, the IFC has never commented on MitD, right? Because saving V, at least, would certainly have advanced their obscure, but certainly Evil, goals.

[Kish]

I wonder who is doing the actual wishing.
Would make it cleaner if MitD was *granting* O Chul's unspoken wish, wouldnt it?
Considering O-Chul's previously expressed priorities, I'd say, "No, that leaves the question of why they got teleported away untouched and adds the question of why O-Chul didn't suddenly smash Xykon to powder."

[Throknor]

Jeez; decide to relax for a weekend and you miss a lot in a thread about a character that hasn't appeared recently.

First, I vote Z->F->G->H->I->Z->B->A. That seems to be the order for least changes first.


Wish doesn't have a one word limit - that's command - but the reality is that MitD only used one word, regardless of how many he would have been allowed had it been Wish that he was using.

Grey Wolf

MITD's entire statement is "You're my friend, you HAVE to be OK! It can't end like this! It's not fair! You need to leave. You need to - ESCAPE." If taken as the entire Wish the "you HAVE to b OK" clause can translate into being sent back to his fellow paladins. At least being there gives O'Chul better odds of being OK than simply outside the tower, outside the city, or pretty much anywhere else on the planet.

Of course, this doesn't appear to directly explain V going as well. However, whatever grants the Wish could recognize that O'Chul would not willingly (or willfully) leave an unconscious V behind to die and thus would not be "OK" without V. And since he clearly was OK afterwards without the MITD the same grantor would either leave MITD behind from the phrasing., or simply did not overcome the rogue Dimensional Anchor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First, I vote Z->F->G->H->I->Z->B->A. That seems to be the order for least changes first.
... That's exactly one more than the arbitrary number of columns I have. Hopefully you don't mind if I put the last two in a single column, because it doesn't seem worth to add an extra column or an extra row just for that.

Grey Wolf

[Sir_Norbert]

You could take one of those Zs out.

[Keltest]

You could take one of those Zs out.

Two Z, or not Two Z, that is the question.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You could take one of those Zs out.

...

Ok, yes, I think I can do that. Sorry, I do honestly not look at the votes when I copy them - the table structure is so fiddly I concentrate on placing the letters in the right order in the right spots.

GW

[Algeh]

How much longer will voting be open? I'm finding myself conflicted about what to vote for and have been stalling as a result.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How much longer will voting be open? I'm finding myself conflicted about what to vote for and have been stalling as a result.

By the rules, until it's been a day without new votes. In practice, it tends to be a few days without votes, because I'm not standing here with a stopwatch. I also tend to not count weekend days as real days for this purpose, due to the considerable drop-off in posting on weekends. Given we're in page 7, too, I'll probably won't even check if it's been 24 hours until we hit page 11, because that's when I'd incorporate the changes to the OP anyway - no point in closing a vote and then sitting on it.

So, here is my promise: I won't close the vote before page 10. That works?

Grey Wolf

[ArkenBrony]

I'd like to vote in the order F -> B -> C -> I -> D -> A -> Z

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Medium, Str ?

Quick note on Carb-Amorph size. I just found* a training fight (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-05-11) where Schlock's weight was listed as 550 lbs. This puts him in the Large category by weight (and I'm told that is a more relevant meaure than length or width, one we don't use because all we have is MitD's height). Still, that is a solid, canonical meaure, so I'd list it as "Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Height: variable; Weight 550 lbs (Large), Str: enough to use heavy defensive barriers as flyswatters"

The last bit, by the way, I thought I had already linked in the OP, but it doesn't seem to be there. Does anyone remember the moment and can provide me with a link?

Grey Wolf

*I technically knew it existed all along, but just remembered it introduced the "only cheaters prosper" maxim, and that's what allowed me to track it down

[Jasdoif]

This puts him in the Large category by weight (and I'm told that is a more relevant meaure than length or width, one we don't use because all we have is MitD's height).No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure. The table explicitly says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) the weight ranges are for a creature with same density as a regular animal...and it sounds like a carbosilicate amorph's density is variable.

[lio45]

I'll be updating my vote to

A > Any(G,H) > C > !Z

(Some of those options weren't there originally; also, having to specify that I prefer A over C, and C over B, could very well have not been needed at all, but now it looks like it might be close enough for it to matter. I chose the path I estimated was likely to generate on average the least work for GW, but in the end, it caused me to have to update my vote twice. So, sorry for that.)

[Mightymosy]

Considering O-Chul's previously expressed priorities, I'd say, "No, that leaves the question of why they got teleported away untouched and adds the question of why O-Chul didn't suddenly smash Xykon to powder."

A question I would answer with "Xykon is still a friend to MitD - and scary to MitD. In other words, even wishes do have limits"
I don't know, just ideas

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure. The table explicitly says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) the weight ranges are for a creature with same density as a regular animal...and it sounds like a carbosilicate amorph's density is variable.

No, I think its density is the one thing that is mostly stable. Its form is really malleable, and depends heavily on how much he's eating lately, but the more he eats, the bigger he gets. In any case, even if I was hoping otherwise, weight is what we have, so it'll have to do, if it comes to having to explicitly say (although my preference continues to be to not try to cram the carb-amorph in to D&D stats).

Grey Wolf

[ReaderAt2046]

I don't have SoD at hand - can I get a page number & the exact quote, please? That'll make it easy for me to add (it'll go in section 1a, though, with all the other canon quotes).



p. 49, panel 3: "Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—"

Also, to go on another tangent, I do think there is some evidence for the MITD having a telekinetic ability that randomly adds force to its strikes. Both the tower scene and the Earthquake scene seem to indicate the MITD inflicting a tremendous amount of force by accident (it was playing "who can hit lightest" with Miko, and the way its dialog is phrased in the Earthquake scene certainly sounds like it only casually stomped the ground and was surprised at getting an Earthquake). But it doesn't exert this level of force all the time, it's not smashing holes in the ground just by walking around or smashing through the Hollow doors when it paints them. So either something is causing its strength to fluctuate at random, such that it cannot always gauge how much force it is using, or else it has some kind of effect that randomly adds huge amounts of kinetic energy to minor touches.

Which might be a point in favor of the Protean, come to think of it. If its physical form is constantly roiling and bubbling, then it might logically have moments where it suddenly finds itself putting far more muscle behind a strike than it meant to.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

p. 49, panel 3: "Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—"

Much appreciated. Added to 1a. It feels clunky to add it to section 2 ("enjoys the sunlight" is not really an ability, or a characteristic), but I did reference it in the Grue entry, which is the most relevant, I feel.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

... That's exactly one more than the arbitrary number of columns I have. Hopefully you don't mind if I put the last two in a single column, because it doesn't seem worth to add an extra column or an extra row just for that.

Grey Wolf


You could take one of those Zs out.

Actually, that was a typo. I'm basically trying to list every option that isn't remove/replace the FBS list in an order that seems to keep the size requirement. Maybe this is better.

I'm just so damn tired of the NagaSnake {scrubbed}. As I understand it it's the same size as the Hel's deathsnake (or whatever it was) and that's just ludicrous.

I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).

Maybe the next vote could be to rename section 3b from "Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas" to "Frequently Proposed Less Likely Ideas". That might sound less judgemental. But lets get through this first, since it could become moot.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm just so damn tired of the NagaSnake {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. As I understand it it's the same size as the Hel's deathsnake (or whatever it was) and that's just ludicrous.
Longer. The nightshade/nightcrawler (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) is "a massive behemoth similar to a purple worm, though utterly black in color." A Purple worm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm) is "5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long", the Ha-Naga is over 100, 20% larger.


I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).
So noted.


Maybe the next vote could be to rename section 3b from "Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas" to "Frequently Proposed Less Likely Ideas". That might sound less judgemental. But lets get through this first, since it could become moot.

How about I drop the judgemental bit entirely? "Frequently proposed Ideas"? Don't think we need a vote for that.

Grey Wolf

[Quebbster]

Actually, that was a typo. I'm basically trying to list every option that isn't remove/replace the FBS list in an order that seems to keep the size requirement. Maybe this is better.

I'm just so damn tired of the NagaSnake crap. As I understand it it's the same size as the Hel's deathsnake (or whatever it was) and that's just ludicrous.

I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).

Maybe the next vote could be to rename section 3b from "Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas" to "Frequently Proposed Less Likely Ideas". That might sound less judgemental. But lets get through this first, since it could become moot.
It's worse than that. The Likeable Death Worm was (likely) a Nightcrawler, a Gargantuan monster just like the Purple Worm the Order rode to Girard's gate. The Ancient Black Dragon was Huge, one size category smaller so perhaps the Likeable Death Worm was on the smaller end of Gargantuan while the Purple Worm was a bigger Gargantuan.
Anyway, the Ha-Naga is Colossal, one size category larger than Colossal, so a fully grown specimen should be bigger than a Purple Worm.

[Neponde]

Probably wont make much of a difference, but in light of new options available, I'm changing to H > C > Z.

[Doug Lampert]

No, I think its density is the one thing that is mostly stable. Its form is really malleable, and depends heavily on how much he's eating lately, but the more he eats, the bigger he gets. In any case, even if I was hoping otherwise, weight is what we have, so it'll have to do, if it comes to having to explicitly say (although my preference continues to be to not try to cram the carb-amorph in to D&D stats).

Grey Wolf

The length measurement uses it's longest dimension, Schlock can stretch even his normal size to extreme lengths when he wants to and we've seen him flatten out to be a parachute sized thing for a large man, he can definitely be huge or more based on length if he wants to. Remember that he occasionally infiltrates through the plumbing by assuming a long, thin form.

When moving he frequently stretches out quite a bit.

His density is presumably close to 1, he can fit in a 5'x5' space, but that's a rest form with no limbs and his dimensions in that form are no more representative of his size than a snake coiling, when active, he does stuff like hold multiple large men in the air at a well separated distances.

If I had to class Schlock's size for D&D I'd say large, with a comment that he can eat and grow to colossal given enough food.

[Joerg]

How about I drop the judgemental bit entirely? "Frequently proposed Ideas"? Don't think we need a vote for that.


Good idea. It would allow moving creatures there which are frequently proposed and not as unlikely as Snarl jr. The Zodar maybe? Or the Ha-Naga? I don't know if it is frequently proposed, but it's frequently discussed and moving it may just make 3power a bit more happy. (Of course, if option A wins, it may end up in the FBS section anyway.)

[Squire Doodad]

It's occurred to me that I don't actually care about size being removed, but at the same time it feels like most of the people who are for that just want to stop having the same fight again and again. The Xenocrysth is one of the few cases where it feels like it actually just might fit, though it's still a definite con.

I'd like to change my vote to I->A->Z


As an aside, insofar as I am aware there are 2-3 people who actively support the Ha-Naga despite the several glaring flaws it has. It's only had so much attention because due to the lack of MitD in the last hundred comics, fighting over it has been the one thing consuming this thread; otherwise I would imagine it would be just another candidate in the list like the other many, many monsters in the big list.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Good idea. It would allow moving creatures there which are frequently proposed and not as unlikely as Snarl jr. The Zodar maybe? Or the Ha-Naga? I don't know if it is frequently proposed, but it's frequently discussed and moving it may just make 3power a bit more happy. (Of course, if option A wins, it may end up in the FBS section anyway.)

The idea here is to list creatures that multiple different individuals have independently brought up. The Ha-Naga doesn't qualify because it is just the one person. The Zodar I could see an argument for, but it's not really been suggested all that often in the thread itself. Not compared to Tarrasque, Grue, "a god", and variations on "Mary Sue", which multiple people suggested at different times (e.g. a few pages back Gareth235's suggestion of a deity). If anything, we probably could drop Pun-Pun out of the list - it's been ages since that one was brought up.

Grey Wolf

[catagent101]

It's worse than that. The Likeable Death Worm was (likely) a Nightcrawler, a Gargantuan monster just like the Purple Worm the Order rode to Girard's gate. The Ancient Black Dragon was Huge, one size category smaller so perhaps the Likeable Death Worm was on the smaller end of Gargantuan while the Purple Worm was a bigger Gargantuan.
Anyway, the Ha-Naga is Colossal, one size category larger than Colossal, so a fully grown specimen should be bigger than a Purple Worm.

I've interpreted the purple worm the Order encountered to be Colossal since it increases to that size after sufficient hit die advancement (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm). Point still stands though, the Ha-Naga is gigasized.

[Algeh]

By the rules, until it's been a day without new votes. In practice, it tends to be a few days without votes, because I'm not standing here with a stopwatch. I also tend to not count weekend days as real days for this purpose, due to the considerable drop-off in posting on weekends. Given we're in page 7, too, I'll probably won't even check if it's been 24 hours until we hit page 11, because that's when I'd incorporate the changes to the OP anyway - no point in closing a vote and then sitting on it.

So, here is my promise: I won't close the vote before page 10. That works?

Grey Wolf

Perfect! Thank you.



How about I drop the judgemental bit entirely? "Frequently proposed Ideas"? Don't think we need a vote for that.

Grey Wolf

That seems like a good change to me. My understanding of the point of that section is to give people a relatively short list of things to skim and and realize have already been discussed when they want to make suggestions (with already-identified drawbacks noted), so I don't think the word "unlikely" is doing much to help with that purpose.

[Ruck]

In this case the Rule of Funny applies specificly and only to the holes left in the wall. Note there is a Miko-shaped hole and a Windstrider-shaped hole. Straight out of cartoons.

What you wrote is:


I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.

Which implies you believe you can handwave the STR requirement away with Rule of Funny.


Which might be a point in favor of the Protean, come to think of it. If its physical form is constantly roiling and bubbling, then it might logically have moments where it suddenly finds itself putting far more muscle behind a strike than it meant to.

It's also difficult for a creature of 53 STR that doesn't know how strong it is to hit lightly.

Voting

F, Z, I

I'm strongly against taking the size requirement out entirely, as I haven't been convinced there's a good reason for that other than "people want to fit their pet monsters into the FBS."

[Schroeswald]

My understanding of that was section was that these ideas are constantly suggested despite having just, so many flaws, everywhere, so its saying:

"Hey, I know you think its the Tarrasque/Snarl/Grue/A God/Rich/Pun-Pun, but its been brought up a lot, and it has a billion giant problems, here are all of the problems so we don't have to bring them up again unless someone has a way to overcome these major problems."

And just calling them frequently proposed, imo, lessens the understanding, you see frequently proposed and read "popular" you see frequently proposed unlikely and read "these aren't very good", which imo, helps the section.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And just calling them frequently proposed, imo, lessens the understanding, you see frequently proposed and read "popular" you see frequently proposed unlikely and read "these aren't very good", which imo, helps the section.

That's fair, but on the other hand, the sentence that opens up the category does address that: "These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem."

(Note to self: bit redundant, that, Grey. Maybe consider rewriting the second "major"?)

GW

[Squire Doodad]

MitD has canonically met that jumping teleporting psionic beetle, right? I think it was in one of the prequel books?

Shouldn't that be mentioned as another example of a creature that Protean!MitD could have met to be able to pull off a teleport, since he has in the books met and interacted with it, meaning he would be able to use its abilities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MitD has canonically met that jumping teleporting psionic beetle, right? I think it was in one of the prequel books?

Shouldn't that be mentioned as another example of a creature that Protean!MitD could have met to be able to pull off a teleport, since he has in the books met and interacted with it, meaning he would be able to use its abilities.

I would be really surprised if whatever that thing was could teleport as an EX and not as a SU, but if anyone reminds what it was, I'll check.

GW

[Peelee]

That's fair, but on the other hand, the sentence that opens up the category does address that: "These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem."

(Note to self: bit redundant, that, Grey. Maybe consider rewriting the second "major"?)

GW

Maybe replace either "major" with "significant"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Last edited by Ruck; Today at 11:42 AM.
Voting

F, Z, I

One day, if it hasn't happened already, I'm going to miss one of these votes-in-edits.


Maybe replace either "major" with "significant"?

Gift, Mouth, Horse, some assembly required.

GW

[Peelee]

Gift, Mouth, Horse, some assembly required.

GW

Instructions unclear, horse has been placed in the mouth of a gift.

[Squire Doodad]

Instructions unclear, horse has been placed in the mouth of a gift.

This is what we get for applying regional variants to urban Mimics.

[Quebbster]

MitD has canonically met that jumping teleporting psionic beetle, right? I think it was in one of the prequel books?

Shouldn't that be mentioned as another example of a creature that Protean!MitD could have met to be able to pull off a teleport, since he has in the books met and interacted with it, meaning he would be able to use its abilities.

I would be really surprised if whatever that thing was could teleport as an EX and not as a SU, but if anyone reminds what it was, I'll check.

GW
The GDGU discussion thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?565459-Good-Deeds-Gone-Unpunished-The-Discussion-Thread-(Unmarked-Spoilers!)) says it is a Carbuncle. I am unsure what writeups I am allowed to link, but I found one writeup that has the following ability:
Fatal Faker (Su)

As a standard action three times per day, a carbuncle can teleport as per the spell dimension door, but only within a range of 30 feet. Upon teleporting, the carbuncle leaves behind a perfect replica of itself amid a colored flash and the sound of a reptilian choke. This replica duplicates the carbuncle in all ways, though it is obviously dead and the colorless stone in its head is reduced to worthless dust.
...but yeah, that is a Supernatural ability so it's a no go for a Protean to copy. Dimension Door doesn't have enough range anyway.

[3Power]

The idea here is to list creatures that multiple different individuals have independently brought up. The Ha-Naga doesn't qualify because it is just the one person.

At least two.
(https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=7959644&postcount=860)

[Keltest]

Im personally disinclined to move the Ha-naga into that category even if we do get rid of the "its probably not these guys" subtext. Two people across a decade does not a popular suggestion make.

[lio45]

And just calling them frequently proposed, imo, lessens the understanding, you see frequently proposed and read "popular" you see frequently proposed unlikely and read "these aren't very good", which imo, helps the section.
That's fair, but on the other hand, the sentence that opens up the category does address that: "These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem."I agree with Schroeswald. If we find "unlikely" to be too rude, then how about naming that category "Frequently Proposed Problematic Ideas"? As you (GW) point out, the sentence that opens up the category lets that cat out of the bag anyway. That problematic part is an essential characteristic of the ideas that are in that category: they aren't merely frequently proposed, they're frequently proposed AND have one (or more) major problem(s).

So, given how that entire category is about the fact that these ideas are problematic and that anyone who thinks of bringing them up for the nth time should address whatever known problem there is with their candidate while doing so, it seems normal to have the category title reflect that reality, no? We want to make sure every newcomer knows this category is for entries that are by consensus known to be officially problematic in a major way.

[b_jonas]

The other thing about wish is that if cast as a spell it requires XP, which MiTD does not necessarily have both due to the tendencies of monsters to have a lot of hit dice (thus raising their level to be higher than their CR) and MiTD's overall high power (which could mean a high Estimated Character Level even without hit die bloat). That's a good argument that I haven't heard (although I already thought a specific teleport effect more likely). With the caveat that, if the creature is something like a Zodar that can cast Wish once in his life, then they probably either have enough XP for that one Wish or the XP requirement for a baseline Wish is waived for them.

The MITD has little to no tangible idea of where O-chul would be most happy to be. Also, given that O-chul is a paladin, that doesnt necessarily correspond to safety. So the Wish has to extrapolate that, which takes it beyond the simple transportation. MitD may just want O-Chul to be together with his other friends (other than himself and V). Or he may want to send them to whereever Vaarsuvius came from. Or O-Chul told him some more details about himself between #550 and #561 and now the MitD wants to send O-Chul to Hinjo. Any of those would probably work as a baseline wish.


Like, MitD's species is good at reading people's wishes and fullfilling them, with magic. Considering O-Chul's previously expressed priorities, I'd say, "No, that leaves the question of why they got teleported away untouched and adds the question of why O-Chul didn't suddenly smash Xykon to powder." Those were the priorities earlier. In #661 fourth and fifth panel, O-Chul clearly says that he and Vaarsuvius must escape now, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) and the MitD can hear that.


German nouns can be compounded to quite ridiculous extents: any time English uses a noun as a modifier on another, as in "doghouse" or "shipping company", the German equivalent is likely to be a single word. Not verbs though. I think rumors about this are heavily exaggerated. English often compouns nouns by putting anything before them without any marks to connect them. English just chooses to spell those unmarked compounds with a space between them, unlike German or Hungarian. That space is an artifact of current writing rules, not something really inherent to English, although it may help with D&D spells that have a word count. I believe it is actually the wrong choice, because those unmarked noun phrase constructions are part of the reason why English is often hard to understand, (http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html#d.2015-03-20.2284) and spelling such words ran together (with a hyphen in words where running them together would be confusing) might improve readability. (Ironically, running the words together may be the wrong choice for Hungarian, where such compounds are easy to recognize most of the time because of the case endings and clearly distinguishable verbs.) Admittedly English uses somewhat fewer unmarked noun compounds than German or Hungarian, because English often replaces them with obscure words chosen from a huge vocabulary of uselessly specific words that speakers have to learn individually, instead of using compounds with an obvious meaning in their place.


"Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Height: variable; Weight 550 lbs (Large), Str: enough to use heavy defensive barriers as flyswatters"
No, I think its density is the one thing that is mostly stable. Its form is really malleable, and depends heavily on how much he's eating lately, but the more he eats, the bigger he gets.
The length measurement uses it's longest dimension, Schlock can stretch even his normal size to extreme lengths […] His density is presumably close to 1, he can fit in a 5'x5' space, but that's a rest form with no limbs and his dimensions in that form are no more representative of his size than a snake coiling, when active, he does stuff like hold multiple large men in the air at a well separated distances. If I had to class Schlock's size for D&D I'd say large, with a comment that he can eat and grow to colossal given enough food. Noted, thanks. I don't read that comic, so I didn't know these details.

No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure. That sounds likely. The main reasons why D&D creatures have a size listed is because larger creatures are easier to hit and take up more than one square of space. The size also matters for some other reasons, like how heavy melee weapons they like to fight with, but those are less important.


The Ancient Black Dragon was Huge, As an aside, how do we know that his age was exactly ancient? She cast a 7th level spell Greater Teleport, ancient black dragons normally cast spells up to 5th level. She said "I too have a passion for the arcane arts...even moreso than others of my kind.", so it's possible that she's ancient, but my guess would be wyrm.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a good argument that I haven't heard (although I already thought a specific teleport effect more likely). With the caveat that, if the creature is something like a Zodar that can cast Wish once in his life, then they probably either have enough XP for that one Wish or the XP requirement for a baseline Wish is waived for them.
I'm told that wishes cast as part of a SLA, SU or EX ability don't require paying XP costs. As far as I know, though, Ha-Naga casts as a sorcerer, and would be required to pay the XP cost.


As an aside, how do we know that his age was exactly ancient? She cast a 7th level spell Greater Teleport, ancient black dragons normally cast spells up to 5th level. She said "I too have a passion for the arcane arts...even moreso than others of my kind.", so it's possible that she's ancient, but my guess would be wyrm.

Rich has called her Ancient when talking about her - for example, here (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-mar-36596373).


No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure.
Is there an explanation why the purple worm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm) (length: 80 ft) is Gargantuan (max length: 64 ft)?


I disagree with only showcasing X amount of candidates anyways.
So wouldn't you be in favour of eliminating the FBS list? If there is no limit to the number of creatures in it, wouldn't it be better if it was just every creature in one long list?

If not, what is the actual limit of creatures you'd think appropriate?

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Those were the priorities earlier. In #661 fourth and fifth panel, O-Chul clearly says that he and Vaarsuvius must escape now, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) and the MitD can hear that.Sure, because as far as they know, they are absolutely not in a position to do anything about Xykon other than trying to live to fight another day. That they have an ally with access to Wish is information that would change this calculation.

That scene shows MitD deciding that _he_ wants O-Chul to be safe, over anything else.

As Kish points out, it rules out MitD telepathically "consulting O-Chul" to inform him that stuff like Wish or Miracle is available, then coordinating whatever he's going to do next with O-Chul.

[Jasdoif]

No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure.Is there an explanation why the purple worm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm) (length: 80 ft) is Gargantuan (max length: 64 ft)?Probably. But if you're asking me, all I can do is theorize: I note that the 3.0 SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) lists the purple worm as Gargantuan despite occupying 30x30 feet coiled (which is the typical space for the large Colossal size category)....I imagine the 3.5 designer(s) prioritized keeping its 15-foot reach as a long Gargantuan creature, and didn't bother with the flavor text.

[lio45]

Probably. But if you're asking me, all I can do is theorize: I note that the 3.0 SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) lists the purple worm as Gargantuan despite occupying 30x30 feet coiled (which is the typical space for the large Colossal size category)....I imagine the 3.5 designer(s) prioritized keeping its 15-foot reach as a long Gargantuan creature, and didn't bother with the flavor text.Speaking of Gargantuan worms, this official SRD source that is one of the very first two that show up with a google search of "ha-naga" says it's Gargantuan, not Colossal:

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/monsters-foes/monsters-by-type/aberrations/ha-naga/

[Jasdoif]

Speaking of Gargantuan worms, this official SRD source that is one of the very first two that show up with a google search of "ha-naga" says it's Gargantuan, not Colossal:

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/monsters-foes/monsters-by-type/aberrations/ha-naga/If OOTS updates to fifth edition and MitD suddenly shrinks, we might have something there....

ETA: Wait, just remembered: Colossal isn't a size category in 5e; the scale goes from Tiny to Gargantuan, so this isn't necessarily representative of anything...which I guess means MitD shrinking would be an even more explicit hint if it happened?

[lio45]

And I'm done with you again. Someone please do let me know if he changes his votes.Doesn't really matter until Page 10, but could someone point this out to him?

[Crusher]

Speaking of Gargantuan worms, this official SRD source that is one of the very first two that show up with a google search of "ha-naga" says it's Gargantuan, not Colossal:

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/monsters-foes/monsters-by-type/aberrations/ha-naga/

Sadly, that version only dates back to 2018.

Huh, I hadn't noticed 5e completely did away with Colossal as a size category. I bet its Klauth's fault.

[Ortho]

So wouldn't you be in favour of eliminating the FBS list If there is no limit to the number of creatures in it, wouldn't it be better if it was just every creature in one long list?

No, I like the FBS list. I just disagree with one* of its criterion.


If not, what is the actual limit of creatures you'd think appropriate?

There shouldn't be one.

If a creature fits the big scenes, put it on the list. I fear that if we limit the size of the list to an arbitrary number, we'll end up excluding some perfectly good candidates.



By the way, you said to holler if Lio45 changes his vote?

I'll be updating my vote to

A > Any(G,H) > C > !Z

(Some of those options weren't there originally; also, having to specify that I prefer A over C, and C over B, could very well have not been needed at all, but now it looks like it might be close enough for it to matter. I chose the path I estimated was likely to generate on average the least work for GW, but in the end, it caused me to have to update my vote twice. So, sorry for that.)


*Ok, two. 30 STR seems rather arbitrary to me, but I don't want to derail the conversation, and I'm sure some helpful individual will point me towards how we arrived at that number anyways.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, I like the FBS list. I just disagree with one* of its criterion.
*Ok, two. 30 STR seems rather arbitrary to me, but I don't want to derail the conversation, and I'm sure some helpful individual will point me towards how we arrived at that number anyways.

"Stronger than Roy", and rounded to 30. And, honestly, that's being generous. 30 is very low to be lightly hitting people through walls.


There shouldn't be one.

If a creature fits the big scenes, put it on the list. I fear that if we limit the size of the list to an arbitrary number, we'll end up excluding some perfectly good candidates.
OK, gotcha. But here's the thing, we wouldn't end up with a long list - we'd end up with an empty one. Because if we get really strict about fitting the FBS (wish, strength past 40, vomit-inducing), we end up with no candidates at all. So, obviously, we don't, instead we allow a bit of leeway. And how much leeway is exactly what we are voting on. IMnpHO, MitD won't grow to be gargantuan, so by your logic, we should not even consider such creature, because something that big doesn't fit any of the scenes. Others, of course, disagree, and instead say we should, say, only allow wish-capable monsters.

But the thing is, these "truly fit the scenes" approaches to the FBS list aren't actually useful. If we are extreme exclusionists, insisting in only allowing the best possible explanation to each scene, we end up with an empty list. If we are extreme inclusionists, allowing whatever handwave explanation, no matter how flimsy, we end up with, well, 3e. The sweet spot is, I think you'd agree, somewhere in the middle - thus my question to you of where you'd see that sweet spot. And because the question "what is the exact set of conditions that explain the scenes perfectly" is not answerable, I don't even try - but I can say "how many FBS entries is ideal, so that there aren't so few it feels like we've figured out the finalists, and not so many it's a chore to read through all of them", and then tweak the strictness of the filter to end up with that number. Make sense?

And that's the thing - what you might call "perfectly good candidates" can't be. Because if they were, they'd be in the list already, and we'd have made it more difficult to be in the list, so we'd exclude the candidates that are not as good as those. Why would we want to place gargantuan candidates, when we have smaller ones that already fit the FBS at least as well as they do, and don't require MitD to have to grow 10-fold before adulthood?*

*To be clear, this exact same argument can be done by changing the specific characteristic to whichever argument can be made against it - why keep teleport creatures when we could limit it to wish, why keep only moderately ugly creatures when we could limit it to truly disgusting ones, why keep 30-STR creatures when we could limit it to 40+, etc.


By the way, you said to holler if Lio45 changes his vote?
Indeed I did. Thanks.

Very late ETA:

I'm missing something. Wouldn't any change to FBS criteria require us to reevaluate the candidates? I'm not seeing how option A is more strenuous than... well, any other option except I or Z.
Strength is easy to check, and I know that the number of monsters with 38+ strength in 3e is extremelly limited. I was far less sure about the number of gargantuan+ creatures with 30+ strength. Thus, sight unseen, I didn't want to commit to doing A, but I knew that the effort involved in the other options was significantly less. Since then, though, enough people have stepped up to the plate and done the heavy lifting of checking the 3e section for me, for which I am most grateful.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

Look at what happens when I take a few days away from the computer.

B, H, I -> Z

I think that means any of B, H, or I, no preference, and if none of those, then Z. Correct? I still haven't mastered this voting system.

[Spirare]

Changing vote to A > F > !(D, E, H, Z).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Look at what happens when I take a few days away from the computer.

B, H, I -> Z

I think that means any of B, H, or I, no preference, and if none of those, then Z. Correct? I still haven't mastered this voting system.

Technically not, that's "B, H & I together, or not at all", but I've recorded it as "Any of (B, H, I)", which is what you describe. At voting time, it'll count for individual votes for all three, but if the vote is between them (e.g. B vs H), it'll cancel itself out.

GW

[Jaziggy]

Votes:

My vote is A>H>I

My vote is Xenocrysth > Protean

On size:

In my mind, the MitD has been clearly flagged by Rich as being smaller than its rulebook size and that it will one day be some degree of enormous. There's no way to say definitively what size the creature is, although as the base creature gets farther away from Huge/Gargantuan (either smaller or larger), it becomes less likely for a variety of reasons- the Tower Scene, reader incredulity and frustration, the logic of Rich making that choice and then subsequently putting it under an umbrella/in a box. That's not enough to go on to pin him down to a particular size, so I think the size limitation should be scrapped, and size should be considered holistically.

On the creature:

Xenocrysth gets treated by RC & X the way I'd expect such a thing to be treated- a big ugly meathead. He also treats himself the way I'd expect a childlike version of such a creature to treat himself. It has innate powers that neither big bad would necessarily be aware of and it's believable that it could use them accidentally. If that Psionic Teleport was Reality Revision or Wish, it'd be a slam dunk for me. But since there are no slam dunks out there, I'll take my new friend the Xenocrysth.

I ultimately pushed Xenocrysth up ahead of Protean because although it connects beautifully with some storytelling elements it doesn't really connect with the way the character interacts with others and is interacted with- it seems to have a unitary sense of itself, they have a sense of it as a stable 'that', and it desires constancy and stability in a way that doesn't make sense for a Protean. If Xykon had a Protean, he'd be exposing it to new creatures to mimic, training it, helping it understand its capabilities. If MitD was a Protean, wholly alien to the universe, what motivation for seeking to belong and be understood? Finally, 'it can do any of these things because it can transform into anything' feels like a bit of a storytelling/guessing game cop-out. It's not quite Pun-Pun, but it's edging into that territory.


P.S.
I won't give it the dignity of an official guess but I keep coming back to a Pseudonatural Hollyphant because it would just be much funnier than anything else. It falls short in so many important ways that I'm sure it won't be that, but can't you just see the big reveal happens and it's a wee little golden elephant with tentacles sticking out every which way. No one is remotely intimidated... then it transforms into a huge shaggy elephant with tentacles sticking out every which way. Just a crack up.

[ranagrande]

I will vote E > D > A > G > H > Z

[Vulkos]

I'll vote:

A > G > H > C > B

[Emanick]

I've been offline for a while and then had to spend days catching up with this thread. Yikes. :smalleek:

Anyway, my votes are B > C > A > F > I > Z. I like the idea of removing the size requirement while adjusting for strength, although I think it might be too restrictive to require Large creatures to have 38+ Str, Huge creatures to have 46+ Str, etc. Still, that might be better than no change at all.

[lio45]

... although I think it might be too restrictive to require Large creatures to have 38+ Str, Huge creatures to have 46+ Str, etc. Still, that might be better than no change at all.We wouldn't "require" these creatures to have that STR. It would simply be MitD's estimated adjusted STR if he were of that species.

Now, _if_ a given creature (in practice, it's the case for most of them) has no other explanation for the Tower Scene (and I'd go as far as to say the Earthquake too, though that's not a FBS condition) than pure physical strength, then it will be this adjusted strength that'll be the figure used. By community consensus, to satisfy the Tower Scene via physical strength requires >=30 STR, at the very least. (That's a low boundary, on purpose.)

[Emanick]

We wouldn't "require" these creatures to have that STR. It would simply be MitD's estimated adjusted STR if he were of that species.

Now, _if_ a given creature (in practice, it's the case for most of them) has no other explanation for the Tower Scene (and I'd go as far as to say the Earthquake too, though that's not a FBS condition) than pure physical strength, then it will be this adjusted strength that'll be the figure used. By community consensus, to satisfy the Tower Scene via physical strength requires >=30 STR, at the very least. (That's a low boundary, on purpose.)

Sure, I understand that. Sloppy wording on my part - I probably shouldn’t have used the word “require.”

[Kashem]

So I'm kind of curious why this thread generally leans toward MitD being only one creature. Slaadi change color in various ways, and there is a part of me that wonders if the Darkness itself doesn't serve an additional purpose: Slaadi change type when they recluse for a year.

One of the reasons that people seem to keep discounting Slaadi is that they would by necessity have to be particularly old. Is that true though? I've seen references that say that Green Slaadi can change to Grey with a year in seclusion, without listing how old the Green Slaad would have to be to undergo that year. Grey Slaadi can change into Death slaadi by apparently eating the corpse of a Death Slaad. Death Slaads can become White slaads with a year in seclusion, same with White -> Black.

This, for me, Becomes a valid reason why MitD is kept in the dark: Xykon or RC are actually using the darkness as a forced evolution process. The hunters may have only found a Green Slaad 29 years ago, with it changing into a relatively young Grey Slaad before it became Xykon's cohort. Xykon, knowing that it was so young and likely easy to control, could have fed it the corpse of a death slaad (MitD did say Xykon was always trying to get it to eat babies, what else was he trying to get it to eat?) The time spent in Gobbotopia in the box could have been the transition to a White Slaad, explaining the spontaneous appearance of the Greater Teleport ability that it didn't know it had.

At the time of the dungeon of dorukan, a Death Slaad (or even Grey) would have been really problematic for the order. The best way for Xykon to make sure that he still has a secret weapon is to make sure that it grows stronger at least as fast as the order does.

I could totally see the Darkness itself being a part of what makes the MitD strong, rather than just being a simple plot device for a super dramatic reveal.

[Qwertystop]

So I'm kind of curious why this thread generally leans toward MitD being only one creature. Slaadi change color in various ways, and there is a part of me that wonders if the Darkness itself doesn't serve an additional purpose: Slaadi change type when they recluse for a year.

One of the reasons that people seem to keep discounting Slaadi is that they would by necessity have to be particularly old. Is that true though? I've seen references that say that Green Slaadi can change to Grey with a year in seclusion, without listing how old the Green Slaad would have to be to undergo that year. Grey Slaadi can change into Death slaadi by apparently eating the corpse of a Death Slaad. Death Slaads can become White slaads with a year in seclusion, same with White -> Black.

This, for me, Becomes a valid reason why MitD is kept in the dark: Xykon or RC are actually using the darkness as a forced evolution process. The hunters may have only found a Green Slaad 29 years ago, with it changing into a relatively young Grey Slaad before it became Xykon's cohort. Xykon, knowing that it was so young and likely easy to control, could have fed it the corpse of a death slaad (MitD did say Xykon was always trying to get it to eat babies, what else was he trying to get it to eat?) The time spent in Gobbotopia in the box could have been the transition to a White Slaad, explaining the spontaneous appearance of the Greater Teleport ability that it didn't know it had.

At the time of the dungeon of dorukan, a Death Slaad (or even Grey) would have been really problematic for the order. The best way for Xykon to make sure that he still has a secret weapon is to make sure that it grows stronger at least as fast as the order does.

I could totally see the Darkness itself being a part of what makes the MitD strong, rather than just being a simple plot device for a super dramatic reveal.

"In the dark, but frequently chatting with others" is very much not the same as "in seclusion", and I'm not sure if there's been enough years in-comic (not counting the stuff in SoD) regardless. but otherwise that's an interesting idea. Grey to Death is plausible, at least, and maybe Green to Gray could have happened at an unusually young age in the forest.

[catagent101]

So I'm kind of curious why this thread generally leans toward MitD being only one creature. Slaadi change color in various ways, and there is a part of me that wonders if the Darkness itself doesn't serve an additional purpose: Slaadi change type when they recluse for a year.

One of the reasons that people seem to keep discounting Slaadi is that they would by necessity have to be particularly old. Is that true though? I've seen references that say that Green Slaadi can change to Grey with a year in seclusion, without listing how old the Green Slaad would have to be to undergo that year. Grey Slaadi can change into Death slaadi by apparently eating the corpse of a Death Slaad. Death Slaads can become White slaads with a year in seclusion, same with White -> Black.

This, for me, Becomes a valid reason why MitD is kept in the dark: Xykon or RC are actually using the darkness as a forced evolution process. The hunters may have only found a Green Slaad 29 years ago, with it changing into a relatively young Grey Slaad before it became Xykon's cohort. Xykon, knowing that it was so young and likely easy to control, could have fed it the corpse of a death slaad (MitD did say Xykon was always trying to get it to eat babies, what else was he trying to get it to eat?) The time spent in Gobbotopia in the box could have been the transition to a White Slaad, explaining the spontaneous appearance of the Greater Teleport ability that it didn't know it had.

At the time of the dungeon of dorukan, a Death Slaad (or even Grey) would have been really problematic for the order. The best way for Xykon to make sure that he still has a secret weapon is to make sure that it grows stronger at least as fast as the order does.

I could totally see the Darkness itself being a part of what makes the MitD strong, rather than just being a simple plot device for a super dramatic reveal.

None of the MM slaadi have sufficient capabilities to be MiTD. See this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22313010&postcount=153) in the LA assignment thread if you want a breakdown of their abilities (note that stats are conveyed as bonuses. +10 Strength for example is 20 Strength in the statblock. And also somewhat sensationalized). None of them have an explanation for the tower scene nor the escape.

The ones that do have abilities that could explain either scene (Black/White Slaadi) are the ones that need to hang out for a hundred years, decide to self-isolate for a year (chaos is surprisingly procedural it seems), and then come back as their respective forms. Citation (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/White_slaad) (scroll down to ecology).

[Kashem]

None of the MM slaadi have sufficient capabilities to be MiTD. See this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22313010&postcount=153) in the LA assignment thread if you want a breakdown of their abilities (note that stats are conveyed as bonuses. +10 Strength for example is 20 Strength in the statblock. And also somewhat sensationalized). None of them have an explanation for the tower scene nor the escape.

The ones that do have abilities that could explain either scene (Black/White Slaadi) are the ones that need to hang out for a hundred years, decide to self-isolate for a year (chaos is surprisingly procedural it seems), and then come back as their respective forms. Citation (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/White_slaad) (scroll down to ecology).

Not necessarily true actually. Prismatic Slaadi can alter any Slaad into any other type at will. (Reference: Here (https://thecreaturecodex.tumblr.com/post/621847193615237120/slaad-prismatic?is_related_post=1)

In fact, that in particular path gives bonus points to the question about whether he travelled to the Astral plane; as that's where Prismatic Slaadi live. That would make that comment a big clue.
Now I'm thinking that he could have just been a super-young slaad that got Prismed into a really really young White/Black Slaad.

[Qwertystop]

Not necessarily true actually. Prismatic Slaadi can alter any Slaad into any other type at will. (Reference: Here (https://thecreaturecodex.tumblr.com/post/621847193615237120/slaad-prismatic?is_related_post=1)

In fact, that in particular path gives bonus points to the question about whether he travelled to the Astral plane; as that's where Prismatic Slaadi live. That would make that comment a big clue.
Now I'm thinking that he could have just been a super-young slaad that got Prismed into a really really young White/Black Slaad.

That post was published in 2020, much too late. It mentions an "original version" but provides no reference. The involvement of a Prismatic Slaad would require that such a thing was extant back when strip 100 was written (and that it had the same Alter Slaad ability as the version on that tumblr). Can you demonstrate such a thing?

[Kashem]

This (https://www.enworld.org/threads/slaad-a-palooza.65780/page-3) is the oldest reference I could find: 2003 vintage. I don't know when strip 100 came out. This one does not mention being able to change the type of other Slaadi though, or even the greater teleport, so I'll look for that.

[catagent101]

That post was published in 2020, much too late. It mentions an "original version" but provides no reference. The involvement of a Prismatic Slaad would require that such a thing was extant back when strip 100 was written (and that it had the same Alter Slaad ability as the version on that tumblr). Can you demonstrate such a thing?

I was able to find one here (https://www.enworld.org/threads/slaad-a-palooza.65780/page-3#post-1243602) but it doesn't seem to have the abilities Kashem was talking about.

EDIT: ninja'd

EDIT 2: So I figured I'd look through the slaads in the thread for any potential candidates and only one kind of seems to fit. The platinum slaad seems to have the required capabilities at a glance, but it has the split ability, which means that if MiTD was damaged by MIko or Belkar, there would be now two MiTDs unless MiTD takes a full-round action to reform. I guess that could be explained though by MiTD trying not to split or something, thought that isn't RAW.

EDIT 3: So I decided to scroll through a bit more on the link of the converted prismatic slaad, and later down in the blog it references the Enworld thread as the source for the yellow slaad. Given the slaads seem to be based off the ones in the thread, it presumably is the original source.

[Crusher]

I was able to find one here (https://www.enworld.org/threads/slaad-a-palooza.65780/page-3#post-1243602) but it doesn't seem to have the abilities Kashem was talking about.

EDIT: ninja'd

EDIT 2: So I figured I'd look through the slaads in the thread for any potential candidates and only one kind of seems to fit. The platinum slaad seems to have the required capabilities at a glance, but it has the split ability, which means that if MiTD was damaged by MIko or Belkar, there would be now two MiTDs unless MiTD takes a full-round action to reform. I guess that could be explained though by MiTD trying not to split or something, thought that isn't RAW.

If the Prismatic Slaad had a better Escape answer than Dimension Door (or maybe, arguably, Word of Chaos or Dispel Law as some kind of banishment effect gone awry? Even calling that a "stretch" is a stretch) it would be pretty good. Extremely strong (you can bump its size all the down to Large and it still has a 30 STR), great defenses and super weird looking with a high CHR. Plus it doesn't speak common, isn't found in jungles, and has scythe blades for hands making it hard to hold stuff. On the down-side, its way, way too big.

That one, plus Platinum, were the only two that were close to fitting. Pity, really. Platinum was the one with Greater Teleport, but it was also the one that split when hit. Unfortunate.

[Kashem]

Reading the rest of that thread, and coming across the bubblegum Slaad made me want a "Ranch Dressing Slaad" that comes from the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing... There were some solid candidates there though.

[Charybdis136]

IMO the only explanations for the escape that I find plausible are wish (the best IMO), miracle, greater teleport (unlikely to explain but no solid evidence it does not work this way/MitD could have been anchored) and I guess some older edition ability. I still believe MitD is not psionic due to redcloak, so those explanations may be lacking. I do not particularly like any banishment based effect or anything similar.

[Crusher]

IMO the only explanations for the escape that I find plausible are wish (the best IMO), miracle, greater teleport (unlikely to explain but no solid evidence it does not work this way/MitD could have been anchored) and I guess some older edition ability. I still believe MitD is not psionic due to redcloak, so those explanations may be lacking. I do not particularly like any banishment based effect or anything similar.

Yeah, anything banishment-related or plane-shift related, or a short range teleport like Dimension Door are just terrible. I mean, they're technically answers, but in the way that "5" is an answer to "2+2=?". There's probably some odd non-Euclidean situation in which its true, but its generally just wrong.

That having been said, Greater Teleport (or the old version "Teleport without Error") combined with some kind of mind-reading or teleport tracing is actually an excellent solution, probably as good as Wish (given that Wish can sometimes have side-effects, especially from a Glabrezu) but still inferior to Miracle. If MitD was talking to people with telepathy, you'd think someone would have commented on it by now. But if MitD is reading people's minds, then maybe not.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

in the way that "5" is an answer to "2+2=?". There's probably some odd non-Euclidean situation in which its true, but its generally just wrong.

2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of two. It is a classic example of the dangers of rounding: 2.4 + 2.3 = 4.7, which if carelessly rounded, becomes 2 + 2 = 5. It's a less blunt kind of wrong, so to speak.


That having been said, Greater Teleport (or the old version "Teleport without Error") combined with some kind of mind-reading or teleport tracing is actually an excellent solution, probably as good as Wish (given that Wish can sometimes have side-effects, especially from a Glabrezu) but still inferior to Miracle. If MitD was talking to people with telepathy, you'd think someone would have commented on it by now. But if MitD is reading people's minds, then maybe not.

The SBGH did comment - they found it surprising MitD was talking. The possibility this is lamp-shading a creature that by base/fluff prefers to speak via telepathy is what attracted me to the Xeno-whatsit in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of two. It is a classic example of the dangers of rounding: 2.4 + 2.3 = 4.7, which if carelessly rounded, becomes 2 + 2 = 5. It's a less blunt kind of wrong, so to speak.

If somebody tried to tell me that they added 2 and 2 to get five, and then said they were actually talking about adding 2.5 and 2.5, i'd call them a liar. 2.5 isnt 2 (hence the use of the extra punctuation and digit).

[Euclidodese]

This has probably been discussed to death before, but I keep coming back to the line by O'Chil in Strip 1042.

"If I told you, you wouldn't believe me. If I told him, I don't think he'd believe me either."

To me, most of the heavily proposed ideas don't fit with that line. If you told the MITD he was an Athasian Nightmare Beast, why would he not believe you?

He'd probably reply by asking what an Athasian Nightmare Beast is, but after you explained, why would he not believe that that's what he is? After all, he doesn't know what he is, and nothing about the ASB really stands out as being something you'd be surprised to find exists in the OOTS world, and nothing about it really seems to stand out as something he would feel he couldn't be.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This has probably been discussed to death before, but I keep coming back to the line by O'Chil in Strip 1042.

"If I told you, you wouldn't believe me. If I told him, I don't think he'd believe me either."

To me, most of the heavily proposed ideas don't fit with that line. If you told the MITD he was an Athasian Nightmare Beast, why would he not believe you?

He'd probably reply by asking what an Athasian Nightmare Beast is, but after you explained, why would he not believe that that's what he is? After all, he doesn't know what he is, and nothing about the ASB really stands out as being something you'd be surprised to find exists in the OOTS world, and nothing about it really seems to stand out as something he would feel he couldn't be.

"But we are not in Athas!"

"What do you mean, I could take on any ability I've seen other use?"

"I'm from a different comic?"

etc.

GW

[Sir_Norbert]

By the way, it's been a few days since we had any new votes. Time to call it?