Paladin Villain

[Littlemike137]

So I’ve settled on a half orc paladin who fought his way to the top of his tribe and is now trying to conquer the area as the BBEG of my campaign, probably Oath of Conquest (although this may change, I need to look through the PHB and XgtE to see if another path fits better,) but I was wondering what would be a good level for him to be to take on, eventually, a party at lvl 5 or 6. He wouldn’t be alone, I’m a rookie DM but not rookie enough to put a solo boss, but would have something like 4 Orcs and 6-7 goblins, who would die in one hit, as backup. Any advice would be appreciated, either on choice of oath or level. I’m leaning towards level 8ish as of now.

[heavyfuel]

It's impossible to answer this without knowing the party's size. A 2 people party is going to get massacred by the action economy, a 6 people party will probably take out every goon in a single round and then eat the paladin for breakfast.

As a very general guideline, I have my bosses be around 2 levels higher than the party, and the goons be 2 levels below them, aiming for a number of enemies equal to "party size" x 1.25

[Littlemike137]

It's impossible to answer this without knowing the party's size. A 2 people party is going to get massacred by the action economy, a 6 people party will probably take out every goon in a single round and then eat the paladin for breakfast.

As a very general guideline, I have my bosses be around 2 levels higher than the party, and the goons be 2 levels below them, aiming for a number of enemies equal to "party size" x 1.25

Right, I forgot to put that in. The party is a monk, cleric, warlock, wizard, and rogue, so 5 people.

[heavyfuel]

Edit: another important question is "how drained of resources do you expect the PCs to be when they fight?"

So I stand by my point. Expect goons to be taken out by round 1 and the pally will be down by round 2 or 3.

I think pally level 9 is really nice because of 3rd level spells. Nothing the party can't handle, but will help him even out the action economy (ie, drop one or two PCs).

You still need slightly stronger goons. Maybe add a ~lv6 protegé of his?

[Dungeon-noob]

My first piece of advice would be NOT to build a BBEG like a PC. He isn't a PC, he needs to fulfill a different function in the game, and neads different traits and stats to do so. PCs are built to have limited health, but a lot of resources and damage in a short amount of time, with managing the spending of those resources being their main element and draw. This often requires the players full attention for this single character. An NPC, even a BBEG, does not have that. You're running more than just this guy, so if you give him the same amount of features, you're unnecessarily burdening yourself. If you give him a PC amount of health, he won't last long enough for the fight to be fun. PCs are also limited in what they and their abilities can do; NPCs can have a lot more freedom as long as it's fun, without it damaging the game. That's where Owlbears come from, after all.

So just take a look at what you want this guy to be (Orc chief? Noble savage? Dark champion? something else?), and give him features and abilities to reflect that. If he's a good commander, let him do some commanding in the battle, mechanically. Giving his minions free movement, out of turn attacks, minor stat bonusses, that sort of thing. If he's supposed to be a champion of dark forces, mirroring the knights of the light, give him some fancy magic stuff, buffs or debuffs, healing or harm, maybe let him use a "vampirirc lay on hands", where he can only heal by taking the life from others, by choice or by force.

Right now, i don't think i know enough about him or the rest of the situation to give definate advice. But these general tips are important to not shoot yourself in the foot, in my opinion.

[Man_Over_Game]

You'll want an enemy team with roughly 180 total HP, and about 50 damage per round.

You don't want your players to die too quickly, and they'll have about an average of 35 HP, with the Wizard only having about 25 HP. So we don't want your Paladin to be smiting down your players consistently with an average damage higher than 25, which is roughly a level 6 Paladin.

Your Paladin has about 50 HP and deals about 30 damage per turn, which leaves you with a budget of 130 HP and 20 damage per round, which isn't ideal. My suggestion is to have a bunch of zombies that are empowered by his aura of darkness, which is why they have a bunch of THP. They basically act as bullet sponges for him (maybe he can use a Zombie to absorb damage if it's in the way and both use their Reactions) while he hammers down the enemy players.


Player Characters in RPGs are almost always designed around having very little HP and very high damage. This makes things feel very dangerous and epic, just like how a single bullet or slash could kill a person in real life.
However, monsters are the opposite, with massive amounts of HP (as they're big and scary and don't die in one turn), and low damage (because they're stupid and you want your players to be able to react to problems).

This is true in almost EVERY RPG, even ones like Final Fantasy. This is why confusion effects are so brutal, because the game isn't balanced around players killing other players. That isn't fun, basically everyone playing the equivalent of Rocket Tag until everyone's dead on turn 2.

So using a PC as a villain doesn't usually work, unless you follow the same design scheme by doubling their HP and then reducing how much damage they do (which can easily be done by just lowering their damage by about 4 per hit and halving their spell slots).

The rules you want to follow on making a boss are:

Make them hard to kill (roughly 2-3 times that of your toughest player)
They should never deal average damage to kill a Wizard in one turn.
Cause their super powers to be circumstantial (I deal extra damage if you're incapacitated)
Cause their super powers to be obvious (I knock you asleep as a Legendary Action, not during my turn)

You'll note that a level 7 Paladin fails on all points, and why most experienced DMs probably would suggest to not use a Paladin PC as a villain.

[heavyfuel]

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Every time someone complains that newer editions of D&D are too "video-gamey", that's the first that springs to mind. Not saying that having something like a video-game boss is badwrongfun, but I do feel like it breaks immersion.

Both the paladin and the PCs are humanoid characters in the same universe, why shouldn't the same character creation rules apply to both?

Yeah, it makes bosses into glass cannons, but that can be worked around. A single "PC-like" NPC isn't taking out the party in a single round, so giving them weaker minions that can keep the party busy while he does his thing presents the players with interesting tactical choices.

[Man_Over_Game]

Every time someone complains that newer editions of D&D are too "video-gamey", that's the first that springs to mind. Not saying that having something like a video-game boss is badwrongfun, but I do feel like it breaks immersion.

Both the paladin and the PCs are humanoid characters in the same universe, why shouldn't the same character creation rules apply to both?

Yeah, it makes bosses into glass cannons, but that can be worked around. A single "PC-like" NPC isn't taking out the party in a single round, so giving them weaker minions that can keep the party busy while he does his thing presents the players with interesting tactical choices.

Maybe, but you're talking about a boss that stands there and deals 30 damage like a really lethal metronome. Contrary to popular belief, player characters are not interesting. The decisions players make might be interesting, but generally the end results are pretty generic stuff that you'd expect from the least interesting enemies you'd come across.

And we're not saying that he'll kill the party in a single round. He'll kill a player in a single round, which might seem fun and dramatic for everyone....except the dead guy who's opinion actually matters.

A key factor of the "fun" factor of a game is how obvious your mistakes were. If you can't figure out what you did wrong and still get punished for it, you're not going to have fun. And as far as I can tell, if a Paladin wants to hit you for 20-30 damage in a turn, and he can reach you, he's going to be able to do it regardless of what your "mistakes" were.

That's the dilemma you gotta decide for yourself. Are your priorities developing a world simulator, or are you developing a game, and which will your players find more fun?



Given, I think you can easily modify the Paladin to work around those gamist problems (for example, he has to Smite as a Reaction and through a Zombie that hits the player, as this both lowers the burst damage problem and provides some means of avoidance and predictability for the players to play around).

I think the worst thing a DM can ever do is shrug and say "Sorry if you didn't have fun, I didn't have a choice". If a player can't blame himself, and he can't blame the DM, he'll just blame the game.

Players have fun when they can blame themselves, so make it happen.

[heavyfuel]

A key factor of the "fun" factor of a game is how obvious your mistakes were. If you can't figure out what you did wrong and still get punished for it, you're not going to have fun. And as far as I can tell, if a Paladin wants to hit you for 20-30 damage in a turn, and he can reach you, he's going to be able to do it regardless of what your "mistakes" were.

Is the Pally one shotting you on a Smite-crit that much different than you trying to be diplomatic and rolling a 1? Both times you failed because of the dice. Why is one un-fun and the other just considered part of the game?

The only character the Pally can truly one-shot without a crit (or rolling really well on the smite dice) is the Wizard. If he can reach him, if he hits. The Wizard should have good enough posioning that the Pally at least has to Dash to get to him, and Mage Armor+Shield should make hitting him not super easy. If he's in melee distance with no protection spells, he deserves to get one-shot.

"You died because you let him get to you in melee" is a perfectly obvious mistake.

[JNAProductions]

Is the Pally one shotting you on a Smite-crit that much different than you trying to be diplomatic and rolling a 1? Both times you failed because of the dice. Why is one un-fun and the other just considered part of the game?

The only character the Pally can truly one-shot without a crit (or rolling really well on the smite dice) is the Wizard. If he can reach him, if he hits. The Wizard should have good enough posioning that the Pally at least has to Dash to get to him, and Mage Armor+Shield should make hitting him not super easy. If he's in melee distance with no protection spells, he deserves to get one-shot.

"You died because you let him get to you in melee" is a perfectly obvious mistake.

Because a 1 on Diplomacy is likely to initiate combat, continuing the game with everyone involved.
A Smite-crit from an enemy ends the game for someone.

Moreover, a level 8 Paladin has two attacks a round. If they hit with both (not impossible-depending on AC, could even be pretty likely) they can roll 4d6+8 weapon damage plus 6d8 smite damage, for an average of 49 damage. A Barbarian with 18 Con dies to that at level 4. A Wizard with 16 Con dies to that at level 6. If you let GWF apply, it gets even worse.

[Eldariel]

Is the Pally one shotting you on a Smite-crit that much different than you trying to be diplomatic and rolling a 1? Both times you failed because of the dice. Why is one un-fun and the other just considered part of the game?

The only character the Pally can truly one-shot without a crit (or rolling really well on the smite dice) is the Wizard. If he can reach him, if he hits. The Wizard should have good enough posioning that the Pally at least has to Dash to get to him, and Mage Armor+Shield should make hitting him not super easy. If he's in melee distance with no protection spells, he deserves to get one-shot.

"You died because you let him get to you in melee" is a perfectly obvious mistake.

Even a level 5 Wizard can easily have 16 Con (start with 15, take Res: Con on 4), which would lead to 37 HP or plenty to tank a Smite using a 3rd level slot (2d6+3+3d8 averages 23,5 with 0,1% to land 37+ - even a crit only averages 44 so he has ~13% chance of surviving that as well) even without being an Abjurer (which would likely give another 13 effective HP) and any Temp HP from the party (Inspiring Leader is possible on the Warlock).

And even if he gets downed, it's just a Healing Word and he's back up so it's not that big of a deal unless yoyo healing is dealt with. In my encounters, PCs regularly go down and enemies try to finish them off, but it's not trivial for minions to land enough hits on a 20 AC tank to kill him before he can get Healing Worded back up (and a bigger enemy is generally needed to down them in the first place).


If anything, I think the Pally should be pretty close to being able to one-shot the party members since landing hits in this edition is always pretty unreliable and at two attacks (or three with PAM) he's looking at an average of 1 hit per round so unless he can do significant damage with that, he'll just get overwhelmed with action advantage after the Wizard e.g. Fireballs the minions away.

[Sparky McDibben]

One way to handle this is to telegraph the BBEG's abilities, so they don't blindside the PCs. This is where RP interactions can be really useful. Try having minion orcs surrender if the pre-boss encounters go against them.

"Jeez, the orcs say this guy beheaded their last chief in one blow that sounds magical. Maybe we should stay at range?"

Other, riskier options include having a series of decapitated enemy heads at edge of the orcs' territory. A Medicine check could tell they were severed by immense force, while a Religion check could tell the heroes this is/not typical orc behavior.

I also suggest using a straight statblock for the BBEG. They're cleaner and easier to run, and you have all the options available rather than flipping through a bunch of stuff. Check out Matt Colville's video on Action-Oriented Monster Design for good tips on this.

[heavyfuel]

Because a 1 on Diplomacy is likely to initiate combat, continuing the game with everyone involved.
A Smite-crit from an enemy ends the game for someone.

Moreover, a level 8 Paladin has two attacks a round. If they hit with both (not impossible-depending on AC, could even be pretty likely) they can roll 4d6+8 weapon damage plus 6d8 smite damage, for an average of 49 damage. A Barbarian with 18 Con dies to that at level 4. A Wizard with 16 Con dies to that at level 6. If you let GWF apply, it gets even worse.

Be pedabtic if you want. Change "diplomacy" for anything that can incur death or combat-long disability on a Nat 1 and my point still stands.

Failing an Athletics checks (falling after failing to climb/jump) or a Save vs any number of spells that monsters have access to can all remove a character from combat.

Seriously, it's like even suggesting that combat (especially against a "boss") should be dangerous is tantamount to blasphemy for some people on the forum.

[Eldariel]

Level 9 Pally of Conquest should be pretty interesting. Have him mostly use spells while his minions and his OAs deal the damage; Fear + Sentinel is a pretty solid combo especially with the Aura of Conquest. Maybe toss War Caster on top of it. Perhaps just give him Sentinel and Inspiring Leader and have him buff his underlings so that they're outside the Fireball range if they make their save with the Aura of Protection bonus. Or maybe just Inspiring Leader and then give him 16 Cha to start with and further +2 Cha (Aura of Protection is quite nice on a boss type character, and it enhances his spell save DCs too). Hell, Spiritual Weapon gives him a bonus action attack and Command is also a nice spell for provoking OAs, while Armor of Agathys is a great way to enhance the value of his effective HP from Aura of Protection and relatively high AC.

Probably just give him sword&board and make him a mobile debuff tank. There's a decent amount of stuff going on and that should make for a pretty interesting fight.

[Nagog]

Every time someone complains that newer editions of D&D are too "video-gamey", that's the first that springs to mind. Not saying that having something like a video-game boss is badwrongfun, but I do feel like it breaks immersion.

Both the paladin and the PCs are humanoid characters in the same universe, why shouldn't the same character creation rules apply to both?

Yeah, it makes bosses into glass cannons, but that can be worked around. A single "PC-like" NPC isn't taking out the party in a single round, so giving them weaker minions that can keep the party busy while he does his thing presents the players with interesting tactical choices.

Because 5e is not designed for PvP. In PvP, Paladins would almost always beat every other martial class, Artificers would be darn near useless, and PHB/Revised Rangers would be even more trash than they already are. Here are some of the things that contribute to that:

Initiative: Having a Wizard BBEG is tropic and interesting, but in practice having your BBEG casting one spell per round (which can be counterspelled) and then fleeing your party's martial characters is a very anti-climactic boss fight. Once the Paladin gets into melee range of them, it's basically over. In a real time response scenario, if both the Paladin and Wizard have the same speed, the Wizard could kite the Paladin for long enough to whittle down his HP, as they would remain a constant distance from one another. In a turn based scenario, having the same speeds equates to the wizard running their speed, ending their turn, the Paladin running up to them, hitting them, then restart. It's less immersive, but it allows for more control and order in a tabletop setting.

HP: As has already been stated, PCs are glass cannons, enemies are defensive tanks. While you make a valid point about them both being humanoids and subject to the same laws, the point of this encounter is less immersive focused and more enjoyment focused. If it's not a risk/reward style confrontation, your players will not enjoy it in the slightest.

If you're still dead-set on making this boss a PC, I'd recommend a Tunnel Fighter (fighting style) Oath of Vengeance pally with PAM. Any party member who approaches without taking a Disengage action is subjected to a PAM opportunity attack, which allows the Vengeance Pally to move half their speed away from them. Tunnel Fighter allows them to sacrifice their Bonus action for infinite Attacks of Opportunity. This combination is deadly in the hands of a PC, and in the hands of an enemy, makes the players have to use strategy and intelligence to pin them down and deal damage.

[DevilMcam]

NPC are not built the same way as PCs for good reasons. PCs are very heavy on offense and light on defense so a PC vs PC fight get bad really Quick.

You should probably lock for statblock that match your feeling and the expected difficulty for the party.
The CR8 blackguard (Volo's) and a bunch of orcs should do the trick

[heavyfuel]

Because 5e is not designed for PvP

I wouldn't go giving 5e's designers too much credit.

Having enemies that follow that same creation rules as PCs can 100% work, it just needs a bit more fine tuning from the DM.

Don't have a single BBEG Wizard casting a single spell per round. Have archers with him that force the party Wizard to spend his reaction on Shield or whatever instead of Counterspell. The pally doesn't need to wield a greatsword for max damage, he can very well wield a mace and shield for aesthetic reasons or something like it.

[Eldariel]

Don't have a single BBEG Wizard casting a single spell per round. Have archers with him that force the party Wizard to spend his reaction on Shield or whatever instead of Counterspell. The pally doesn't need to wield a greatsword for max damage, he can very well wield a mace and shield for aesthetic reasons or something like it.

Or just have him use movement, something that breaks line of effect, or whatever. I had a solo boss (level 7 Wizard Conjurer) vs. a party of 4 level 5 characters and they almost TPKd (literally if one of two saving throws had gone differently, or one attack roll had failed). The Wizard had animated 2 Zombies and 6 Skeletons, and opened by summoning a Greater Demon (Barlgura). Had he had any of his level 3 slots left, he could've probably finished the party off but he'd used them all on Animate Dead. Counterspell just isn't all that since you can walk over 60' away or around a corner to cast (in his case he went first and the party Wizard never had a chance to try and Counter the SGD). He also had a round of advance warning (more, actually, but only one turned out to be relevant) so he had Mirror Image up when the fight started, which of course did its part.

Ironically, his unwillingness to fight until death saved the party: he spent his last slot on Misty Stop instead of Flame Sphere, which would've dropped the 1HP Gloomstalker (but he lacked the knowledge to take said action - far as self preservation went, his best bet was teleporting and running into the night while his underlings kept the Ranger at bay) and then said Gloomstalker lucked out on a Sharpshooter shot to the head at the edge of his field of vision after another character had taken an AoO from the Barlgura for him and he took two AoOs from Zombies (dropping him to 2 HP on a crit from 7) to reach the firing position, and rolled 27 with Bardic Inspiration to kill the Wizard through their Shield (rolling 8 on the Bardic Inspiration die - AC was 21 with Shield). Wizard has Res: Con, 16 Con, and Tough for 62 HP which was almost too much, and he made heavy use of Tolling and Misty Stepping/Benign Transpositioning around to keep the meetwalls useful while raining arcane death on the party members. If the GS had been dropped the Wizard would've certainly managed to escape and the party could've even still died to the remaining zombies, skeletons and Barlgura: the GS came in clutch in the clean-up.


PC vs NPC fights are brutal: lots of high damage, people can die easily, etc. High tension, high lethality - just the way some people like it (while others enjoy playing boffer fights of whittling down gargantuan HP pools). I personally prefer it that way since it so clearly sets apart humanoids and monsters; monsters are burly, durable, but far less lethal while NPCs can kill you quick but they also go down quick and have less in terms of obscure random abilities so it's closer to mirror matches (and mirror matches are a trope for a reason!). It doesn't suit lower lethality games but if you want for the party to actually have the shot of TPKing without bungling up horribly, I think it's actually good for the game - more variance, randomness, excitement, adrenaline. Good change of pace.

[1Pirate]

Gotta second that(apart from spellcasting), NPCs are never statted like PCs. You can take one or two signature class features and give it to them, but come up with some other stuff.

Actually, if want a real-life, WotC approved example, you might be able to look up Arkhan the Cruel's stat block in Descent into Avernus(not the homebrew Archdevil one) and compare it with his stats on the CriticalRole wiki.

The DiA stats ignore his Barbarian Levels, Aura of Protection, Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Lay On Hands, and Channel Divinity. In fact, Aura of Hate is the only named class feature he has(Some conditions and resistances that Oathbreakers get are in his statblock, but no AoEs).

[MrStabby]

I learned the hard way not to use PC type characters as antagonists.

Firstly, they are a pain to run. They are complex. Now complecity itself isn't bad but as a DM you have a certain attentional budget to use to deliver a smooth game. You miss some elements and it can break immersion ("why didn't the bad guy cast shield before if they have it?") or just slow down the game as you read over a character sheet. Is keeping track of countercharm uses worth the effort?

Secondly they don't really make fun enemies. They go down too quickly and can deny players the chance to contribute. Imagine the wizard successfully casts hold person then the rogue lands a critical hit on the bad guy - sure the fight might not actually be over but the monk cleric and warlock don't really get to make a meaningful difference to taking down the bad guy, he is half dead - the monk can't benefit the party by stunning them, the cleric is reduced to mopping up the chaff and so on. The longer the fight, the less impact the initiative roll has on who gets to meaningfully contribute and who doesn't.


What I would do instead is to make a Paladin themed monster. High AC, great saves, keep the paladin aura. Drop the lay on hands, drop divine smite (if you want a complex end fight with other enemies running around then not worrying about tracking spell slots is a plus). Unless there are some very specific spells you want drop them as well. Instead of divine smite just add a standard 2d6 radiant damage to every attack. Give them some abilities that maybe link to their faith - you can create anything so use that freedom. A fear Aura? Works well for an evil paladin. If they are an adherent to a god of storms then give them a flying speed maybe. God of death - a permenant spirit guardians type effect.

A set of legendary actions to roundout the turns should finish it.

How much more can you add to the encounter in terms of lair actions, interms of fun and complex supporting minions and environmental effects, traps NPCs etc. for the same complexity as statting the bad guy as a full PC? Cant those other uses of complexity be more fun?