Change Eldritch Invocations on long rest?

[Zaltman]

Thinking of making a house rule where warlocks can change all their invocations after a long rest instead of only being able to change one when they increase their warlock level. Everything else will be BTB.

Thoughts on if this is too overpowered or problems it will cause down the road?

Thinking behind this is to provide a way for more strategic/episodic thinking about EIs rather than the static lock and load approach. The extra versatility makes up for the limited spells per short rest, particularly at lower levels.

[kazaryu]

Thinking of making a house rule where warlocks can change all their invocations after a long rest instead of only being able to change one when they increase their warlock level. Everything else will be BTB.

Thoughts on if this is too overpowered or problems it will cause down the road?

Thinking behind this is to provide a way for more strategic/episodic thinking about EIs rather than the static lock and load approach. The extra versatility makes up for the limited spells per short rest, particularly at lower levels.

i mean, it'd certainly go a long way toward making warlocks behave less like martials i suppose. make them at least somewhat more comparable to the full casters that they're all too often compared to.

problems i could see arising however is the potential of warlocks iwth all of the benefits of a full caster, and all of the benefits of a martial with only limited downsides of each. what i mean by that is:
you have a warlock that is nearly as versatile as a full caster (where realistically, warlocks tend to be specialists, but they can be built to specialize in a wide variety of situations), but also has the full at-will scaling that a martial has. as far as downsides, they're slightly more squishy than a martial (as is typical of full casters) but not nearly as squishy as most full casters. and they're still a bit limited in their scope, but not nearly as limited as martials are.


now, i'd need to comprehensives comb through the invocations in order to form an opinion on whether this is even theoretically a problem. but hypothetically it could be a problem, depending on invocations. on a gut feeling though i don't *think* it would be.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Thinking of making a house rule where warlocks can change all their invocations after a long rest instead of only being able to change one when they increase their warlock level. Everything else will be BTB.

Thoughts on if this is too overpowered or problems it will cause down the road?

Thinking behind this is to provide a way for more strategic/episodic thinking about EIs rather than the static lock and load approach. The extra versatility makes up for the limited spells per short rest, particularly at lower levels.

I might allow something like this for certain invocations, perhaps in pairs. Like, a player who took beguiling influence could change it out for beast speach, but someone taking devil's sight is stuck with it.

[Toadkiller]

I haven’t looked at the invocations lately. But from what I recall from the warlock I played at least some of them were practically subclass features. But then again, a wizard can completely shift their focus by changing spells.

It could be worth a try I suppose.

[Nagog]

I wouldn't. Invocations are powerful, but specific. If I knew I was going into a dungeon or a combat heavy area, I could drop most of my invocations and pick up Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Armor, Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, and Agonizing Blast, and easily be the most prepared character going into it. After leaving the dungeon to do some exploring, I swap all those out for Ascendant Step, Beast Speech, Gaze of Two Minds, Gift of the Depths, and Trickster's Escape, and be the most prepared person for that task. Then, when we arrive at the next city, I swap all those out for Mask of Many Faces, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Beguiling Influence, Visions of Distant Realms, and Whispers of the Grave, and I'm suddenly the most prepared person for that as well.

Invocations are similar in power level to feats: Allowing characters to change out feats from day to day in many cases woul be allowing them to entirely restructure their character depending on the challenges of the day.



I haven’t looked at the invocations lately. But from what I recall from the warlock I played at least some of them were practically subclass features. But then again, a wizard can completely shift their focus by changing spells.

It could be worth a try I suppose.

But that is the strength of the Wizard above all other spellcasting classes. The spell list is comprehensive, spellbooks have no real upper limit, and swapping out their toolkit from day to day is what makes them so coveted. A Warlock's strength lies in the great power of their invocations, allowing them to specialize in certain areas at the cost of specializing in others. Allowing a Warlock to change their specialization from day to day would quickly outpace the power level of Wizards, as Invocations are built to be far more powerful than individual spells.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I wouldn't. Invocations are powerful, but specific. If I knew I was going into a dungeon or a combat heavy area, I could drop most of my invocations and pick up Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Armor, Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, and Agonizing Blast, and easily be the most prepared character going into it. After leaving the dungeon to do some exploring, I swap all those out for Ascendant Step, Beast Speech, Gaze of Two Minds, Gift of the Depths, and Trickster's Escape, and be the most prepared person for that task. Then, when we arrive at the next city, I swap all those out for Mask of Many Faces, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Beguiling Influence, Visions of Distant Realms, and Whispers of the Grave, and I'm suddenly the most prepared person for that as well.

This is why I'm not an unreserved yes. Versatility is power, and many invocations don't need extra power. But switching between eyes of the rune keeper and eldritch sight?

[Zaltman]

Good points on potentially too much versatility. However, at low to mid levels I see two invocation slots taken up by 1 pact related choice and agonizing blast. These likely don’t change. Many of the more powerful EIs cost a valuable spell slot so not a lot of abuse there. while you definitely have a valid point i am not completely sold.

Maybe just changing one EI per long rest (instead of all) will balance this?

[Nagog]

Good points on potentially too much versatility. However, at low to mid levels I see two invocation slots taken up by 1 pact related choice and agonizing blast. These likely don’t change. Many of the more powerful EIs cost a valuable spell slot so not a lot of abuse there. while you definitely have a valid point i am not completely sold.

Maybe just changing one EI per long rest (instead of all) will balance this?

I'd limit it to one EI per rest, and one that isn't attached to your Pact. The pact-specific EIs are often more powerful and build-defining than the rest, so swapping them around will allow for massive power swings (For example, swapping from Book of Ancient Secrets to the UA Gift of the Protectors)

[Segev]

Good points on potentially too much versatility. However, at low to mid levels I see two invocation slots taken up by 1 pact related choice and agonizing blast. These likely don’t change. Many of the more powerful EIs cost a valuable spell slot so not a lot of abuse there. while you definitely have a valid point i am not completely sold.

Maybe just changing one EI per long rest (instead of all) will balance this?

If you don't see people changing them because they're locked into choices based on needing them for their build, what good is letting them change them out in the first place?

I understand wanting the versatility, especially since some of the Invocations are really lame "cast a spell you don't know from a spell slot except only once per long rest" things, but they are also sometimes quite potent and if you can just trade them out willy-nilly...it's just too much. Invocations are supposed to shape the warlock build, not be traded out like a cleric's spells.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If you don't see people changing them because they're locked into choices based on needing them for their build, what good is letting them change them out in the first place?

I understand wanting the versatility, especially since some of the Invocations are really lame "cast a spell you don't know from a spell slot except only once per long rest" things, but they are also sometimes quite potent and if you can just trade them out willy-nilly...it's just too much. Invocations are supposed to shape the warlock build, not be traded out like a cleric's spells.

I agree with all of this, except that some invocations clearly aren't build-defining. How many situational, non-combat options would you have to have to equal thirsting blade or the devil's sight/darkness combo?

[Zaltman]

Good points on potentially too much versatility. However, at low to mid levels I see two invocation slots taken up by 1 pact related choice and agonizing blast. These likely don’t change. Many of the more powerful EIs cost a valuable spell slot so not a lot of abuse there. while you definitely have a valid point i am not completely sold.

Maybe just changing one EI per long rest (instead of all) will balance this?


If you don't see people changing them because they're locked into choices based on needing them for their build, what good is letting them change them out in the first place?

I understand wanting the versatility, especially since some of the Invocations are really lame "cast a spell you don't know from a spell slot except only once per long rest" things, but they are also sometimes quite potent and if you can just trade them out willy-nilly...it's just too much. Invocations are supposed to shape the warlock build, not be traded out like a cleric's spells.

I think they will end up changing just a few for versatility. It is highly subjective, but between the pact, the boon and the EI I think the EI are the least defining/shaping of the three.

At 9th lvl the warlock gets two spells and 5 EI. A cleric gets 10 spells. Even if the warlock traded out all 5 EI (I think we can agree that is unlikely) I don’t see it on the same scale as a cleric or bard optimizing spells for the day even if they could change all instead of just 1.