Monsters that don't match their descriptions [Archive]

MrStabby

2020-07-18, 09:03 PM

JackPhoenix

2020-07-18, 09:30 PM

Wicked and depraved may refer to the magic that led to their creation. And insanity and madness has nothing to do with alignment.

The big offender is, of course, Tarrasque. Per description, it's supposed to be an engine of destruction capable of destroying whole towns, but in practice, it's basically just overgrown bear... big and tough, true, but still just an animal. And we know how to deal with those.

That's true about most creatures which get described as extremely dangerous, of course.

Chaosmancer

2020-07-18, 10:25 PM

Re-reading the monster manual I read the entry for Gibbering Mouther:

"Of all the terrors created by foul sorcery, gibbering mouthers are among the most wicked and depraved.
This creature is the composite eyes, mouths, and liquefied matter of its former victims. Driven to insanity by the destruction of their bodies and absorption into the mouther, those victims gibber incoherent madness, forced to consume everything in reach."

"wicked and depraved" makes me think evil aligned and "insanity" and "madness" make me think this will be chaotic in alignment... alignment is Neutral.

So I get that neutral is because of Int 3, but given the description suggests the capacity for wickedness I would have expected int of at least 7 and an evil alignment.

Are there any other monsters that don't really match the descriptions?

Quite a few

Banderhobs are Neutral Evil. They are also perfect servants that spend their entire existence fulfilling their duties.

Yuan-ti? Nuetral Evil, but are a well organized cult empire, with far reaching plans, goals, and schemes to reassert their control of the world.

Beholders? LAwful evil, but they are insane megolomaniacs who kill each other on sight, and will betray you at the drop of a hat.

Slaads... just, slaads...

And that's just off the top of my head.

stoutstien

2020-07-18, 10:46 PM

From the cuff from stuff I've used in a recent game.

Chuul are chaotic evil yet tireless guardians even after the death of their master

Drow are neutral evil. I guess they're highly matriarch organized society and there willing to do anything Lolth asks just for laughs averages out?

Gargoyle are another chaotic guardian. This one even has the patient of stones and will serve without complaint

micahaphone

2020-07-18, 11:05 PM

Bugbears are not bug-like at all, and are only vaguely bearlike!

Now Owlbears, that's a quality monster right there. Exactly what it says on the tin, and good fun, too!

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-18, 11:45 PM

Drow are neutral evil. I guess they're highly matriarch organized society and there willing to do anything Lolth asks just for laughs averages out?

There's a sidebar about this somewhere. IIRC, an individual drow behaves in a chaotic evil manner, following their patron goddess, and though they have a rigid hierarchical structure, it's also one where every individual is self-obsessed and without empathy or morals. So yeah, it's basically a case of averaging out.

Beholders? LAwful evil, but they are insane megolomaniacs who kill each other on sight, and will betray you at the drop of a hat.

Slaads... just, slaads...

Beholders just don't follow the same law as other species. They're fully logical and rational, accounting for their inborn madness, except when confronted by another beholder; even then, their insane rage is driven by a religious desire to destroy false images of the Great Mother. From LoM: "This insanity does not breed chaos; rather, it drives each beholder to adhere to a strict pattern that forces it to consider all other forms of life inferior and insulting." Essentially, they're lawful evil because they're all crazy in the same way, have strong internal taboos (thou shalt not suffer another beholder to live!) and ways of categorizing other species.

What's wrong with slaads?

BloodSnake'sCha

2020-07-19, 01:22 AM

There's a sidebar about this somewhere. IIRC, an individual drow behaves in a chaotic evil manner, following their patron goddess, and though they have a rigid hierarchical structure, it's also one where every individual is self-obsessed and without empathy or morals. So yeah, it's basically a case of averaging out.

Beholders just don't follow the same law as other species. They're fully logical and rational, accounting for their inborn madness, except when confronted by another beholder; even then, their insane rage is driven by a religious desire to destroy false images of the Great Mother. From LoM: "This insanity does not breed chaos; rather, it drives each beholder to adhere to a strict pattern that forces it to consider all other forms of life inferior and insulting." Essentially, they're lawful evil because they're all crazy in the same way, have strong internal taboos (thou shalt not suffer another beholder to live!) and ways of categorizing other species.

What's wrong with slaads?

If I remember right Demons are C because they act under different set od rules.

C, E, L, and G are cosmic powers, it kind of make them non subjective.

I do think that Beholders are rightfully L and E.

Millstone85

2020-07-19, 06:22 AM

So I get that neutral is because of Int 3Except that very low intelligence, and not understanding any language, should make the creature unaligned, not neutral.

Neutral (N) is the alignment of those who prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don't take sides, doing what seems best at the time. Lizardfolk, most druids, and many humans are neutral.
Most creatures that lack the capacity for rational thought do not have alignments--they are unaligned. Such a creature is incapable of making a moral or ethical choice and acts according to its bestial nature. Sharks are savage predators, for example, but they are not evil; they have no alignment.

No brains

2020-07-19, 06:52 AM

I have to give special mention to the merrenoloth. They guys are NE because they are yugoloths, but their whole shtick is just: 'Get boat, sail boat, fulfill contract.' That's not very evil at all. It's likely I'm just failing to consider the fact that they do this for devils and demons in the Blood War on the lower planes. "Want to spread your evil all over the other side of this river? Sure, gimme money."

As for drow, I think their stuff about 'the individual is chaotic and their society is lawful, so they are neutral so everything doesn't collapse' is a mea culpa that their lore doesn't make a lick of sense. This fuels my headcanon that all of drow society is actually a deception that has grown way out of hand.

Slaad make more sense when you consider two things: Primus' rock that got dumped in limbo locked chaos spirits into a (mostly) ordered form and that they are psychic shapeshifters. Red and blue slaads spread carnage and potentially other slaads, but greens, greys, and deaths comfortably exist in the same niche as dopplegangers. That and they're chaotic because the guy who made them imagined them in a fever dream.

Chronos

2020-07-19, 07:28 AM

Quoth micahaphone:

Bugbears are not bug-like at all, and are only vaguely bearlike!
It'd be more accurate to say that bugs aren't very bugbear-like. The original meaning of "bug" was very close to "goblin"; bedbugs were called that because they were nasty disagreeable little creatures (that lived in beds). But then the term got extended to other creatures that were like bedbugs (but not very much like goblins), basically "insects that suck", and from there "any insect" or even "any little creepy-crawly thing".

A bugbear, meanwhile, is a goblin-like creature that's big and hairy. Sounds like a petty close match, to me.

Eriol

2020-07-19, 07:33 AM

As for drow, I think their stuff about 'the individual is chaotic and their society is lawful, so they are neutral so everything doesn't collapse' is a mea culpa that their lore doesn't make a lick of sense. This fuels my headcanon that all of drow society is actually a deception that has grown way out of hand.
IMO it's even worse because Lolth is supposed to be a Chaotic Evil God, and yet demands extreme lawfulness/obedience from her followers. Hell she even puts them through trials and similar. That she wasn't at least neutral shocked me when I learned of such.

No brains

2020-07-19, 07:39 AM

It'd be more accurate to say that bugs aren't very bugbear-like. The original meaning of "bug" was very close to "goblin"; bedbugs were called that because they were nasty disagreeable little creatures (that lived in beds). But then the term got extended to other creatures that were like bedbugs (but not very much like goblins), basically "insects that suck", and from there "any insect" or even "any little creepy-crawly thing".

A bugbear, meanwhile, is a goblin-like creature that's big and hairy. Sounds like a petty close match, to me.

That's quite interesting! Does 'bugging' someone stem from that same old definition?

Millstone85

2020-07-19, 08:35 AM

IMO it's even worse because Lolth is supposed to be a Chaotic Evil God, and yet demands extreme lawfulness/obedience from her followers. Hell she even puts them through trials and similar. That she wasn't at least neutral shocked me when I learned of such.Lolth makes oppressive rules for others, while she herself does only as she pleases. This, IMO, is completely in line with a chaotic evil god.

In fact, I get annoyed when I see characters like Sheev Palpatine being described as lawful evil. That would imply the guy actually believes in bringing order to the galaxy, as opposed to "Power! Unlimited power!".

This fuels my headcanon that all of drow society is actually a deception that has grown way out of hand.You are half right. Drow society is designed for Lolth's cruel entertainment. She watches all the house feuds while munching popcorn, sometimes making a note like "Have that flumphing idiot Cersei somehow retake the throne".

Chaosmancer

2020-07-19, 11:40 AM

What's wrong with slaads?

The short answer is everything.

Long Answer.

Slaadi are supposed to embody chaos. However, nothing about them is actually chaotic.

Red Slaad always create Blue Slaad, unless the victim is a spellcaster of 5th level or higher. Then it is a Green Slaad
Blue Slaad always create Red Slaad, unless the victim is a spellcaster of 5th level or higher. Then it is a Green Slaad
Red Slaad and Blue Slaad hate each other and will always attack each other on sight.
According to older sources, Red Slaad and Blue Slaad know these facts, so they gather their victims in separate slave camps, where they can be spawned without the instinctual drive to kill each other killing the newborn slaad

Green Slaad are the only Slaad to continue to evolve, they always evolve following the same pattern.

Green to Grey
Grey to Death
Death to White Slaads AKA Chronos
White to Black Sladds AKA Void

This pattern is never broken. How Chaotic. They even have Slaad Lords, and it is known that stronger slaads command weaker slaads, in a hierarchy.

awa

2020-07-19, 11:53 AM

additional look at the other outsiders, a extremely diverse array of forms. But salaad just frog men, with very slight variation.

It doesn't help that the salaad are more evil than they are chaotic.

Edit
logically(which is a paradox here) they should have random action tables, and random abilities they change from rnd to rnd.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-19, 11:56 AM

The short answer is everything.

Long Answer.

Slaadi are supposed to embody chaos. However, nothing about them is actually chaotic.

Red Slaad always create Blue Slaad, unless the victim is a spellcaster of 5th level or higher. Then it is a Green Slaad
Blue Slaad always create Red Slaad, unless the victim is a spellcaster of 5th level or higher. Then it is a Green Slaad
Red Slaad and Blue Slaad hate each other and will always attack each other on sight.
According to older sources, Red Slaad and Blue Slaad know these facts, so they gather their victims in separate slave camps, where they can be spawned without the instinctual drive to kill each other killing the newborn slaad

Green Slaad are the only Slaad to continue to evolve, they always evolve following the same pattern.

Green to Grey
Grey to Death
Death to White Slaads AKA Chronos
White to Black Sladds AKA Void

This pattern is never broken. How Chaotic. They even have Slaad Lords, and it is known that stronger slaads command weaker slaads, in a hierarchy.

Depending on the lore you're using, the answer is the Spawning Stone. In 5E, it's a creation of Primus; in Planescape, Ygorl and Ssendam to prevent new slaad lords from surpassing their power. Either way, it has the same effect: most of the creatures generated from the chaos of Limbo are fixed in form and sequence. Grey slaad become death slaad because they're turning to evil in an effort to escape the restrictions of the Stone, and gormeel slaad are a joke.

In fact, I get annoyed when I see characters like Sheev Palpatine being described as lawful evil. That would imply the guy actually believes in bringing order to the galaxy, as opposed to "Power! Unlimited power!".

Lawful Evil isn't a bad description for him when you consider the whole of the now-obsolete EU; he's attempting to reorder the galaxy to resist outside invasion. It's not really that different from Asmodeus, honestly.

Dienekes

2020-07-19, 12:39 PM

The short answer is everything.

Long Answer.

Slaadi are supposed to embody chaos. However, nothing about them is actually chaotic.

Red Slaad always create Blue Slaad, unless the victim is a spellcaster of 5th level or higher. Then it is a Green Slaad
Blue Slaad always create Red Slaad, unless the victim is a spellcaster of 5th level or higher. Then it is a Green Slaad
Red Slaad and Blue Slaad hate each other and will always attack each other on sight.
According to older sources, Red Slaad and Blue Slaad know these facts, so they gather their victims in separate slave camps, where they can be spawned without the instinctual drive to kill each other killing the newborn slaad

Green Slaad are the only Slaad to continue to evolve, they always evolve following the same pattern.

Green to Grey
Grey to Death
Death to White Slaads AKA Chronos
White to Black Sladds AKA Void

This pattern is never broken. How Chaotic. They even have Slaad Lords, and it is known that stronger slaads command weaker slaads, in a hierarchy.

Eh. I don’t think this proves or dispels the notion that a Slaad is chaotic. This is just their reproductive cycle. And the fact that some Slaads gained dominance over others. There is nothing inherently chaotic or lawful about any of that. It’s how the Slaads feel about it. Do those under the Slaad Lords despise them for holding back their freedom to do whatever they want? Are they just waiting for the opportunity to just murder them? Not through some legal quirk or some other inherent way to justify it to themselves or others. They’re just waiting for a moment to slide in the knife because “How dare this guy tell me what to do?” That’s chaotic. And that chaotic person can in turn justify telling others what to do, because if they don’t he’ll knife ‘em.

And a hegemony is created. In its most base and chaotic form.

awa

2020-07-19, 01:21 PM

Eh. I don’t think this proves or dispels the notion that a Slaad is chaotic. This is just their reproductive cycle. And the fact that some Slaads gained dominance over others. There is nothing inherently chaotic or lawful about any of that. It’s how the Slaads feel about it. Do those under the Slaad Lords despise them for holding back their freedom to do whatever they want? Are they just waiting for the opportunity to just murder them? Not through some legal quirk or some other inherent way to justify it to themselves or others. They’re just waiting for a moment to slide in the knife because “How dare this guy tell me what to do?” That’s chaotic. And that chaotic person can in turn justify telling others what to do, because if they don’t he’ll knife ‘em.

And a hegemony is created. In its most base and chaotic form.

I would agree with that if the slaad were just a species but their not, their a planner species, the iconic physical manifestation of chaos. Just as demons are all evil (and chaos) all the time, slaad should be all chaos all the time except nothing about them is particularly chaotic. The are chaotic in a way that makes them extremely predictable and is more easily described as, their just evil.

Kyutaru

2020-07-19, 01:47 PM

This is easy, the Bag of Nails.

It's not a bag, it's not made of nails, it's just a jaguar with a bow.

Keltest

2020-07-19, 02:52 PM

I would agree with that if the slaad were just a species but their not, their a planner species, the iconic physical manifestation of chaos. Just as demons are all evil (and chaos) all the time, slaad should be all chaos all the time except nothing about them is particularly chaotic. The are chaotic in a way that makes them extremely predictable and is more easily described as, their just evil.

Chaos doesnt mean unpredictable either. Its very much "i do what i want." Predicting them is as simple as knowing what it is they want. Lawful is actually often harder to predict because they tend to have multiple drives and have not only their own judgement and desires, but that of their code and any authorities they believe in. You never hear anybody forcing the bard to choose between his duty and his conscience.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-19, 03:04 PM

I would agree with that if the slaad were just a species but their not, their a planner species, the iconic physical manifestation of chaos. Just as demons are all evil (and chaos) all the time, slaad should be all chaos all the time except nothing about them is particularly chaotic. The are chaotic in a way that makes them extremely predictable and is more easily described as, their just evil.

Chaos doesn't mean incapable of organizing or planning, and slaad're certainly not evil as a class (except the ones that have fallen in search of bonus power). They take actions for two reasons: food and sorting their otherwise totally fluid hierarchy. Contrast that with demons, who have motivations based in emotion or morality: revenge, destruction, rage.

Millstone85

2020-07-19, 03:58 PM

For another monster, maybe the morkoth? At least, the illustration in VGtM (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/cc/Morkoth-5e.png) confuses me in regard of the creature's size. It shows the morkoth carrying a bunch of chests, bags and other items on its back. But I must assume those are from a village of sprites or somesuch, because the creature's stat block gives it size Medium.

Chaosmancer

2020-07-19, 10:11 PM

Depending on the lore you're using, the answer is the Spawning Stone. In 5E, it's a creation of Primus; in Planescape, Ygorl and Ssendam to prevent new slaad lords from surpassing their power. Either way, it has the same effect: most of the creatures generated from the chaos of Limbo are fixed in form and sequence. Grey slaad become death slaad because they're turning to evil in an effort to escape the restrictions of the Stone, and gormeel slaad are a joke.

Yeah, but this is just really weird to have Chaotic Neutral creatures, considered the most chaotic creatures, and they are practically lawful.

And you have to dig deep for the Lore about Slaad Lords, they are incredibly obscure and most people will have never heard of them.

I also find it amusing to think that the Death Slaad are trying to get around the Stone, when they are still stuck in the same cycle.

So, yeah, if they were just going to be practically lawful Toad demons... should have just made them that in the first place

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-19, 10:43 PM

Yeah, but this is just really weird to have Chaotic Neutral creatures, considered the most chaotic creatures, and they are practically lawful.

And you have to dig deep for the Lore about Slaad Lords, they are incredibly obscure and most people will have never heard of them.

I also find it amusing to think that the Death Slaad are trying to get around the Stone, when they are still stuck in the same cycle.

So, yeah, if they were just going to be practically lawful Toad demons... should have just made them that in the first place

They aren't practically lawful though. They just have predictable forms. Their social organization is quite fluid and can change by the minute, and they certainly don't recognize concepts like family or heredity, duty, obligation, or community that are present in naturally lawful creatures. Compare them to modrons; each modron has a specific task within a selection of appropriate options. Each modron is connected to a web including all other modrons, fitting seamlessly into a system larger than any single modron can comprehend. When a modron falls in the course of discharging its duty, a modron from the lower tier is instantaneously promoted to fill the spot, and that cascades down until Primus deploys a new monodrone.

Meanwhile, slaad roam around in gangs organized by strength searching for food and ways to increase their strength. An individual slaad might have goals and plans, but those are limited to the individual. Slaad don't create or pursue greater objectives. Compare to devils - a devil that comes up with a clever plan to further the cause of the hells will expect to receive reward and promotion, but also expects that its superiors will receive some share of the credit and reward, and ultimately it all aggregates to Asmodeus. A slaad wouldn't recognize a cause (that's an organizing principle and they don't have those!), and would expect any of its actions to benefit that individual slaad and that one alone.

Also: definitely not demons. Slaad wish to exist, advance and spawn freely (or travel the planes chattering freely and eating whatever looks tasty, like Xanxost, or maybe something else!). Demons want to destroy, despoil and consume.

Man_Over_Game

2020-07-20, 11:27 AM

Beholders just don't follow the same law as other species. They're fully logical and rational, accounting for their inborn madness, except when confronted by another beholder; even then, their insane rage is driven by a religious desire to destroy false images of the Great Mother. From LoM: "This insanity does not breed chaos; rather, it drives each beholder to adhere to a strict pattern that forces it to consider all other forms of life inferior and insulting." Essentially, they're lawful evil because they're all crazy in the same way, have strong internal taboos (thou shalt not suffer another beholder to live!) and ways of categorizing other species.

Ah, so it's that Paladin that burned down the orphanage and still says he's Lawful Good because he was given orders to by his God and was absolutely sure they were Evil and deserved it.

I like the idea that alignment is not how you view you, but how everyone else does. It makes a lot more sense and doesn't have weird things like "Beholders aren't technically crazy, they just act like it".

Gives me a humorous idea of a villain who found out he is cosmically aligned as Evil and doesn't want to be, so he's overcompensating by trying to do good deeds and is failing hilariously.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-20, 11:51 AM

Ah, so it's that Paladin that burned down the orphanage and still says he's Lawful Good because he was given orders to by his God and was absolutely sure they were Evil and deserved it.

I like the idea that alignment is not how you view you, but how everyone else does. It makes a lot more sense and doesn't have weird things like "Beholders aren't technically crazy, they just act like it".

Gives me a humorous idea of a villain who found out he is cosmically aligned as Evil and doesn't want to be, so he's overcompensating by trying to do good deeds and is failing hilariously.

Well, the problem with the paladin isn't that he's not lawful; it's that he's not good. Obeying an order given by a duly-recognized authority to commit an atrocity seems like pretty clearly lawful, or even lawful neutral, evil behavior.

I don't like the description of beholders as insane, frankly. Each beholder believes that it is the ideal reflection of the image of the Great Mother, that all others are flawed, and that inferior versions are blasphemous. Their goals are described as insane in Lords of Madness, but they aren't; they're just alien. It's a failure of imagination, and fortunately didn't carry over to 5E.

KorvinStarmast

2020-07-20, 11:51 AM

Now Owlbears, that's a quality monster right there. Exactly what it says on the tin, and good fun, too! Except that they can't fly, yeah, they are a fine monster. :smallsmile:

Man_Over_Game

2020-07-20, 12:18 PM

Well, the problem with the paladin isn't that he's not lawful; it's that he's not good. Obeying an order given by a duly-recognized authority to commit an atrocity seems like pretty clearly lawful, or even lawful neutral, evil behavior.

My question is, can a person still be Good, even while doing Evil, if they're convinced they're doing Good?

Does intent matter?

JNAProductions

2020-07-20, 12:22 PM

Does intent matter?

To a certain extent. Where exactly the line is drawn can and will vary from person to person.

Kyutaru

2020-07-20, 12:34 PM

My question is, can a person still be Good, even while doing Evil, if they're convinced they're doing Good?

Does intent matter?

Very much so. If you spent your whole life believing orcs were evil only to find out it was a grand conspiracy to wipe out the orc population then yeah that's you being fooled. Plenty of fantasy wars are held under the established pretense of the enemy being bad. But isn't it funny when the empire turns out not to be evil at all and your own master was actually the bad guy all along?

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-20, 01:16 PM

My question is, can a person still be Good, even while doing Evil, if they're convinced they're doing Good?

Does intent matter?

Probably a question for a different 25 to 30 page thread.

stoutstien

2020-07-20, 01:17 PM

Except that they can't fly, yeah, they are a fine monster. :smallsmile:

They can in my games and boy o boy are they a new kind of terrifying.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-20, 01:32 PM

They can in my games and boy o boy are they a new kind of terrifying.

Do they fly totally silently like owls, or do they fly more snarly-y like bears?

stoutstien

2020-07-20, 01:46 PM

Do they fly totally silently like owls, or do they fly more snarly-y like bears?

Silent. Bears are also extremely quite when they want to be.

CapnWildefyr

2020-07-21, 08:43 PM

To a certain extent. Where exactly the line is drawn can and will vary from person to person.

I think it's more that it varies DM to DM, than person to person (I interpreted 'person' to mean player, here). I say this because as a player, it usually has no game impact other than for your own role-playing. But for a DM who tracks that sort of thing, or who has a 'world-view' established with 'good' and 'evil' norms, it's all about how they look at it, what is in their head for how the world will react to you if you follow or break the norms established as 'good.' After you slaughter those orc babies, whether the local villagers care or not is a DM thing.