"Monk" of the 10,000 Devils - build advice

[fof3]

Okay, so i am totally lost, unsure where to start.

The concept is a Monk who, if not actually evil, consorts with evil spirits for power and uses this to boost his combat effectiveness. Unfortunately that's all I got!

I dunno whether I should go Unchained Monk, Warpriest (dipping monk), Magus (Esoteric? dipping Monk) or Phantom Blade. I like the idea of some of the arcane casting from Magus and that I don't have to have a high wisdom (not sure that consorting with fell spirits is particularly wise). On the other hand I think mechanically Warpriest is the best bet (potentially not sacred fist and instead just nominate Unarmed Strike as sacred weapon).

If I dip monk on Warpriest or Magus, when should I break off and should I go Unchained or Master of Many Styles? Warpriest/MMS would allow to combine Pummeling and Crane styles, but UC would just give me an additional attack at full bab. With unchained I would have to go sans armour, but with Wis to AC and Mage Armour you almost break even with full plate, so not the biggest loss.
Magus, should I take 1 level of MMS/Unchained and then accept that I'm sticking with base UAS damage (or monk robe)?

Any advice, thought welcome.

It's 20 pt buy, starting at 13th (replacing dead PC), ultra low WBL (maybe two or three items to start) and party are Fighter, two divine and one arcane caster. Group is generally low op, but gishing open hand with 3 full casters will always leave you quite far behind the curve.

[Heavenblade]

Hmm...consorting with deviils (plural) automatically makes me think of a brawler actually - different martial flexibility combos are combat styles from different devils. However, mechanichaly, you are not really a "devil".

Kinetic fist kineticist with focus on fire/void elements could be interesting - and "paying with health for power" definetly fits the theme of devils and using them.

[Kurald Galain]

If I dip monk on Warpriest or Magus, when should I break off
After one level. In general a dip of monk isn't great on either of these.

With ultra-low WBL, going Bladebound Magus is a good idea, plus the intelligent blade you're getting would fit your concept.

[fof3]

Brawler is an interesting idea, but he will have less "flashy" effects. While BB Magus can be thematic, it wouldn't really pretend to be a monk or use unarmed strikes.

With the Magus option I was thinking that (unless I Kensai) he would wear armour, which therefore would swing MMS as you can only flurry out of armour. I like Magus because you can use arcana to target touch AC and hexcrafter could fit in as well thematically (though not with Kensai). Kensai/UCMonk with Mage armour would be in AC ~9 which is comparable with platemail (though harder to increase AC at that point).

Of course Warpriest/Monk is less MAD.

I may just build both of these options and compare (it helps that no-one has bigged up straight UCM or Phantom blade).

?? Sacred fist or not? Esoteric, Kensai or not? (it's confusing that Esoteric does the US damage and Kensai does the armour).

[Kurald Galain]

?? Sacred fist or not? Esoteric, Kensai or not? (it's confusing that Esoteric does the US damage and Kensai does the armour).

Esoteric is really very bad. If you want an unarmed Magus, try Jistkan Artificer.

And of course, any Magus can use Spell Blending to pick up Mage Armor and go unarmored. The Magus's best defense isn't armor class anyway, but spells like Mirror Image.

[Psyren]

Some ideas:

- You could easily make a neutral or evil Sacred Fist Warpriest that worships one of the Archdevils or Archdemons.

- A Medium can easily consort with evil spirits. There is an archetype built specifically around this called Fiend Keeper (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/medium/archetypes/paizo-llc-medium-archetypes/fiend-keeper-medium/) where you draw power from fiends without being evil yourself.

- While not evil per se, Radiance House's binder conversion called the Pactmaker themes its vestiges spirits in accordance with various constellations, one of which is the Fiend. Using the Pactmaker class or the Empyrean Friar (unchained) monk/Occult Bruiser brawler archetypes, you could make an unarmed character that consorts with evil spirits pretty easily.

[Rynjin]

Consider an Ectoplasmatist Spiritualist.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The BB Magus just has to pick a one-handed slashing weapon, right? It's not an unarmed strike, but you could have a living fiendish prosthetic

[fof3]

I like the look of Jistkan Artificer - hadn't seen it as I usually only look on pfsrd.
Some questions if I may:
The golem arm can have the material changed, but I expect it can't be enchanted (beyond its level based enchantment).
The golem hand is not affected by AoMF or Bodywrap, would it work with striking handwraps (I would think yes)?
Can Jistkan Artificer stack with Hex Crafter? They both alter Hex Arcana, but only adding options.
Can Jistkan Artificer stack with Kensai and if so would that mean losing two spells/level?

With the option for a high bonus on the weapon I should be able to ignore DR that way, so can drop pummling style and MMS. Will probably have to go with armour (see if I can blag glamoured) at which point 1 level UCM won't be needed either, which simplifies things.

[Psyren]

I like the look of Jistkan Artificer - hadn't seen it as I usually only look on pfsrd.

It's on the PFSRD actually, but they're not allowed to use Product Identity names, such as specific locations or characters in Golarion (Jistka is a setting-specific empire.) Instead, they have to use more generic names for such classes in order to comply with the OGL, which for this archetype would be Golemfist Magus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/golemfist-magus-archetype/).



Some questions if I may:
The golem arm can have the material changed, but I expect it can't be enchanted (beyond its level based enchantment).
The golem hand is not affected by AoMF or Bodywrap, would it work with striking handwraps (I would think yes)?
Can Jistkan Artificer stack with Hex Crafter? They both alter Hex Arcana, but only adding options.
Can Jistkan Artificer stack with Kensai and if so would that mean losing two spells/level?

With the option for a high bonus on the weapon I should be able to ignore DR that way, so can drop pummling style and MMS. Will probably have to go with armour (see if I can blag glamoured) at which point 1 level UCM won't be needed either, which simplifies things.

1) It's treated as an unarmed strike, so weapon properties can't be applied directly to it. It also can't benefit from unarmed strike items like AoMF. In short, you have to use the scaling bonus it comes with, or temporary buffs that don't come from items.

2) Handwraps don't work with it either, as magic ones would be "items that enhance your unarmed strikes," while nonmagic ones don't do anything.

3) They should stack, as you're not actually required to take any hexes in place of arcana as a Hexcrafter.

4) Diminished spellcasting alters spellcasting, so you can only take one such archetype per charactere.

[fof3]

I did wonder about enchanting it because you can rebuild it in different materials. Other than adamantine I'm not sure why though (and even then won't be taking power attack/sunder so only really useful to show off out of combat)

[Alexvrahr]

The fiend keeper (http://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Medium%20Fiend%20K eeper) medium is the most direct example of gaining power from devils I can think of. Other medium archetypes might also fit. With the exception of the medium of the master (http://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Medium%20Medium%20 of%20the%20Master) they're not that great at unarmed combat though; maybe the masters of martial arts you channel as a MotM might be the shades of devils?

[fof3]

Thank you for some excellent suggestions and advice. I sketched out a Warpriest and a Magus, the Warpriest easily accommodates all the feats on my "potentials" list, the Magus runs short and I end up thinking that as I'll be using mirror image anyway, so I might as well drop Dodge/Carne Style/Crane Wing and have poor AC - while I'm at it should I go STR based and lose Weapon finesse (damage bonus vs initiative and Ref save).

Medium does appear to fit the idea really well. I've had a quick look at the class and guide but will need a longer look. The guide suggests that they're good for versatility, which MotM removes - but then I'm comparing with Magus/Warpriest.

Fiend keeper and MotM both effect Spirit, one alters and the other modifies. I don't know whether this means you can/can't take both

[Psyren]

Thank you for some excellent suggestions and advice. I sketched out a Warpriest and a Magus, the Warpriest easily accommodates all the feats on my "potentials" list, the Magus runs short and I end up thinking that as I'll be using mirror image anyway, so I might as well drop Dodge/Carne Style/Crane Wing and have poor AC - while I'm at it should I go STR based and lose Weapon finesse (damage bonus vs initiative and Ref save).

Medium does appear to fit the idea really well. I've had a quick look at the class and guide but will need a longer look. The guide suggests that they're good for versatility, which MotM removes - but then I'm comparing with Magus/Warpriest.

Fiend keeper and MotM both effect Spirit, one alters and the other modifies. I don't know whether this means you can/can't take both

RAW would be that you can't combine them, but your GM can and should override that if you have an interesting concept in mind. In terms of fluff, FK has you housing an unwilling evil or fiendish spirit to try and cleanse it, with you being at risk of becoming evil yourself if you use too much of its power; MotM has you only able to channel the champion spirit of a great martial artist. A great martial artist spirit however could easily be that of an evil monk or a martial artist monster such as a Void Yai Oni.

If that fails though and your GM says you have to choose - you don't need MotM to make a competent unarmed Medium, particularly since Fiend Keeper gives you natural attacks anyway, so if forced to choose I'd pick that one.