afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[afroakuma]

We emerge from the three-year reign of the seventh thread to found the eighth thread of me jabbering on about D&D lore both canon and afrocanon. The (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265884-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread!-(You-ask-I-ll-answer)) last (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272393-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-II!) seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?299450-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-III!) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317316-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-IV) have (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372289-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-5!) covered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418709-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VI) quite (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII) a lot of ground, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, random homebrew intrusions, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, the occasional full campaign concept, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for loads and loads of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of forty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

Once again, the fundamentals:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned, and I will actively refuse to answer questions pertaining to 4E fluff.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

• There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

• This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

• Zargon is not an ancient baatorian, and I'm not engaging on the topic yet again in this thread. It's been done to death already, search it up.

• Three years the last one was active for, how did that even happen?

• And in response to your unspoken question, no; I don't ever shut up. :smallbiggrin:

Happy questioning!

[Tzardok]

• Three years the last one was active for, how did that even happen?


Oh, how many times did it look like the thread was sinking, unbuoyed by curiosity. But in truth, it just lurked beneath the surface, waiting... and snatching up any passing question morsel. Like a shark. :smallbiggrin: That's not the grin smiley, that's the "I'm gonna eat you" smiley.

By the by, do we have any idea where the dead power Auppenser did have his divine realm?

[afroakuma]

By the by, do we have any idea where the dead power Aupenser did have his divine realm?

We know the name of the realm was The Tranquil Grounds, but since Auppenser was created in 3rd Edition, placing him conclusively is a bit more challenging. Either Arcadia or Mechanus, and I'm inclined toward the latter.

[Bartmanhomer]

We know the name of the realm was The Tranquil Grounds, but since Auppenser was created in 3rd Edition, placing him conclusively is a bit more challenging. Either Arcadia or Mechanus, and I'm inclined toward the latter.

How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious. :confused:

[Tzardok]

How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious. :confused:

Auppenser was the most revered deity in Jhaamdath, a human nation on Faerûn. When it was destroyed in a war with neighbouring elves, most of his followers lost their faith. Auppenser dwindled over time from lack of worship. That was over a thousand years ago. I don't know exactly when or how long; I don't have my timeline book with me.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Is there any additional information on the beholder city Ootul beyond what's in Lords of Madness?

[afroakuma]

How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious. :confused:

Gotta love a Dawn Cataclysm.


Is there any additional information on the beholder city Ootul beyond what's in Lords of Madness?

Ooltul? Oh sure. Underdark and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark both mention it. I'd suggest running through the overview on the Forgotten Realms wiki.

[Caelestion]

Auppenser was the most revered deity in Chamdaath, a human nation on Faerûn. When it was destroyed in a war with neighbouring elves, most of his followers lost their faith. Auppenser dwindled over time from lack of worship. That was over a thousand years ago. I don't know exactly when or how long; I don't have my timeline book with me.

Jhaamdath was destroyed by a magical tidal wave in -255 DR, creating the Vilhon Reach, some 1600 years before the 1358-1372 DR timeframe of 3E Faerûn. This was notably after the Fall of Netheril and is one of the first uses of epic magic after Mystra's Ban.

[Efrate]

Since most vestiges have a sense of immense age to them, is there something preventing the formulation of newer ones, like something closing the avenue to have you exist in near space? I'm open to afrocannon here, I cannot think of anything that would or could but since ToM was end of 3.5 and got little support was wondering at your musings. Something like a loophole closed by the powers that be.

Also, one of the elder evils is seperate in mind and body, generally inaccessible (I do not own EE anymore so apologies for being hazy), and generally need super specific rite to bring the bits together, is it possible those bits have been shunted into near space? It makes sense to me to be in an inaccessible place that doesn't exist in a way we can comprehend.

Also and completely random, could near space be a 'home's to some draeden? Again the whole not existing thing but still existing. I am trying to parse a bunch of half remembered bits into something cohesive to run with an idea I had rather than just fiat.

[enderlord99]

Were "Chamdaath" and "Jhaamdath" the same place or different ones?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Were "Chamdaath" and "Jhaamdath" the same place or different ones?

It's just Jhaamdath (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jhaamdath), "Chamdaath" is a misspelling, probably influenced by the region later becoming known as Chondath (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Chondath).

[Tzardok]

Since most vestiges have a sense of immense age to them, is there something preventing the formulation of newer ones, like something closing the avenue to have you exist in near space? I'm open to afrocannon here, I cannot think of anything that would or could but since ToM was end of 3.5 and got little support was wondering at your musings. Something like a loophole closed by the powers that be.

Also, one of the elder evils is seperate in mind and body, generally inaccessible (I do not own EE anymore so apologies for being hazy), and generally need super specific rite to bring the bits together, is it possible those bits have been shunted into near space? It makes sense to me to be in an inaccessible place that doesn't exist in a way we can comprehend.

Also and completely random, could near space be a 'home's to some draeden? Again the whole not existing thing but still existing. I am trying to parse a bunch of half remembered bits into something cohesive to run with an idea I had rather than just fiat.

First, it's the Near Realm, not near space. Vestiges aren't chilling in orbit.

Second, at least three of the vestiges in ToM were young. Acererak's death happened during 2e, in the adventure Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Orcus' death and resurrection are from the adventure Dead Gods, which happened close to the end of 2e. Geryon still had stats as a living being in 3.0 (in a web-enhancement for, I think, Manual of the Planes or Book of Vile Darkness), meaning that his fading happened most likely between that one and Fiendish Codex II in 3.5. There is no reason to assume that new vestiges couldn't happen in the modern time.

Third, that Elder Evil you are talking about sounds like Pandorym. It's mind is imprisoned in a crystal, and it's body is hidden in some undisclosed location on the Material Plane, far away from the mind, but still on the same world (and likely the same continent).

Fourth, Draeden and vestiges aren't very similiar. Vestiges are things that don't exist anymore, but still have an influence. Draeden are non-existence bound into a physical existence. I think it's unlikely that there's a connection. If you are looking for Draeden, you should instead go the far and forgotten corners of the multiverse. For example, there are a few Draeden frozen in the Paraelemental Plane of Ice and the Draeden called Ulgurshek acts as a layer in the Abyss.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Would an illithid elder brain, or group of elder brains, dedicated to extinguishing the sun attempt to awaken, or manipulate surface cults into awakening, Father Lymic as described in Elder Evils? Does that pass the smell test, or would they consider the risk too high?

[afroakuma]

Would an illithid elder brain, or group of elder brains, dedicated to extinguishing the sun attempt to awaken, or manipulate surface cults into awakening, Father Lymic as described in Elder Evils? Does that pass the smell test, or would they consider the risk too high?

A rogue elder brain certainly might, and others might be convinced it's a reasonable plan, at least for a while - but by the time the dead sun reached Severe status, it's likely that conventional illithid communities would consider the Brood to be of significant concern and the method too risky for the goal. Remember that illithids don't care for the Far Realm, and that while they love creating new crossbreeds and modified creatures, it's to serve as thralls - the uncontrolled and infectious Brood would be a source of particular alarm.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

A rogue elder brain certainly might, and others might be convinced it's a reasonable plan, at least for a while - but by the time the dead sun reached Severe status, it's likely that conventional illithid communities would consider the Brood to be of significant concern and the method too risky for the goal. Remember that illithids don't care for the Far Realm, and that while they love creating new crossbreeds and modified creatures, it's to serve as thralls - the uncontrolled and infectious Brood would be a source of particular alarm.

That's kind of what I was thinking -- illithids want to turn off the sun for their own comfort. Llymic's 'freezing realm of darkness and madness' might be a bit much for their ordered lifestyle, and if the surface-dwellers are converted into Brood Spawn, they've got a serious food problem; their cities don't carry enough slaves and thralls to feed them well. They need a healthy surface population to raid. Just because it'll work doesn't mean it's a good plan. Ah well; it was a neat idea while it lasted.

I think in the past you've said that in your played version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the Chosen are depowered; can you elaborate on that a bit, or point me to a place where you've done so before?

[Thurbane]

So, randomly came upon the name Epona looking at monsters in the Planar Handbook.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/planar_gallery/82536.jpg

Ur’Epona, also known as Epona’s grandchildren, are horselike creatures that can move from plane to plane. Descended through several generations from Epona (a being variously described as a horse-goddess or even the Primal Horse), they derive their power from her.
Does this goddess (?) get a write-up or mentioned elsewhere?

Does she have any kind of relationship with Equinals, or with Vhara? Or even the Equiceph race?

[afroakuma]

I think in the past you've said that in your played version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the Chosen are depowered; can you elaborate on that a bit, or point me to a place where you've done so before?

I'm not entirely sure I have ever elaborated on it, come to think of it...

The fundamental idea is that the Realms come under threat due to the machinations of Karsus, the extremely-temporary deity of magic, more recently a vestige. A veeeery long-term plan to pull himself back into reality through the Weave is reliant on there being a high concentration of Mystra's power to jack into, which would be Elminster. If he were to do so, Karsus's residual backdoor into the godhead of Mystryl would result in absolute catastrophe for a second time. Of course, Mystra, as a greater goddess, can sense the threat to her power several weeks out, and starts laying plans.

Ultimately, Elminster chooses to pass of old age, relinquishing his Chosen immortality, and goes peacefully in his sleep after a pleasant meal with his assistant. When the threat doesn't clear, Mystra recalls her power from the other Chosen, and other gods are swift to follow suit, fearful that the willing withdrawal of the goddess of magic must be an indicator of grave danger to their own power (which hey, they are not wrong, there is a chance that any concentration of divine power that large could serve as Karsus's host). With so many individual casters reduced in power, and many of the greater evils (liches, etc.) choosing to flee the sphere entirely and set up shop elsewhere, uncertainty reigns as the greatest arcane powers are concentrated in artifacts and relics of past ages, many of which are in the trapped but now vacant domains of said greater evils.

The Red Wizards fall back into their towers and fortresses, weakening the magocratic foundations of Thay, as they jockey for scraps of power in the new diminished regime, fearful of a plot by the absent Szass Tam. Bane's forces in the north strike an uneasy peace with the Dalelands with neither side trusting the other. Shar is too cautious to believe Mystra has left a true power vacuum, but in an era of fear and loss, she's already making out like a bandit, so she doesn't care. In the far south, Zakhara's sha'irs quest to other lands to explore the weakening of magic.

Meanwhile, Talos has discovered that in a time when Shar and her Shadow Weave have backed off, and Bane is down a number of powerful wizards and uberclerics, destruction has a pretty good day. First among the greater powers to be willing to risk committing his own might onto the world once more, he has come with a plan - a plan taking place in a corner of the world so pivotal, yet so obscure, that nobody really saw it coming. In the so-called Utter East, beyond Durpar and the Golden Water, beyond even Ulgarth, the Five Kingdoms are the site of ancient fonts of primal magic, channeled by powerful artifacts known as "bloodforges" that were used in ages past to create living armies of pure magic to wage war on one another. Talos plans to seize the bloodforges and use the most ancient magics of the world to sow destruction and chaos, becoming the preeminent deity of darkness.

Lastly, a group of terrifying riders cloaked in black, redolent with the stench of the grave, have appeared across the Realms, all of them conducting unusual errands as they gradually converge on the Five Kingdoms, each bearing the symbol of a long-gone Lord of the Dead. The church of Kelemvor investigates these sightings with growing alarm, worried about the possibility that in this age of shadow, Myrkul may yet return.


So, randomly came upon the name Epona looking at monsters in the Planar Handbook.

Does this goddess (?) get a write-up or mentioned elsewhere?

Only one mention outside of the monster references that I've seen; it's noted that she's a lesser power or demipower of the Celtic pantheon, and resides in Tir na nOg with them.


Does she have any kind of relationship with Equinals, or with Vhara?

Doubtful.


Or even the Equiceph race?

Hard no.

[aj77]

What is the relationship between the Chinese Pantheon's Celestial Bureaucracy and the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara Tur? Same Celestial Emperor, different functionary gods? Same pantheon with different names? Entirely unrelated?

[Bartmanhomer]

What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?

[Edreyn]

Good to see a new thread from you, Afroakuma!
I hope that by now you had forgiven me for my older unclear questions and won't object to me asking new ones.

1) What does the name "Baator" means, or what's it named after in real life? Other planes are named after real\mythological\historical places (Arcadia, Gehenna, Elisium) or self-explanatory (Beastlands, Carceri, Mechanus). Limbo is from Divine Comedy by Dante. But after what Baator is named?

2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul).

If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.

Pretty much the same actually goes for the Snarl from the comic on which site we write.

Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
Can a mortal receive such power?

3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so?
From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.

But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?

4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one?
I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.

5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?

[Eldan]

The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.

[Edreyn]

The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.

That might be so, but the word "Abyss" does have a meaning - bottomless chasm, and does make associations with something. The word "Baator", as far as I know, doesn't.

[Tzardok]

The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.

That story always cracks me up when I hear it.

Religious fanatics: "Dungeons and Dragons is satanistic! It's full of demons and angels!"

TSR: "Demons and angels? What demons and angels? Those are Tana'ri and Aasimon, honest!"

Religious fanatics: "You are right. That's completly different. Carry on, good citizen."


That might be so, but the word "Abyss" does have a meaning - bottomless chasm, and does make associations with something. The word "Baator", as far as I know, doesn't.

That's exactly what Eldan said, Edreyn. Baator is an invented word, simply for the reason that "Hell" couldn't be used anymore. With "Abyss" one has a degree of seperation to the "hellish" meaning, which grants plausible denieability.



2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul).

If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.

Pretty much the same actually goes for the Snarl from the comic on which site we write.

Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
Can a mortal receive such power?

Draeden are like that. Some of the Elder Evils in the eponymous book are described like that, but they are overhyped. Tharizdun has an reputation like that, but... who knows?



3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so?
From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.

Myrkul is a cheating cheater who cheats. His mind is still alive, imprisoned in the Horn Crown.


But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?

The Graveyard of the Gods floats in the Astral and is patroled by the Gravekeeper. Aoskar's corpse is there. As far as I know every dead deity has a corpse there.


4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one?
I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.

I do not see why you consider the skirmishes between the Gith races of equal importance to the Blood War, or even of greater importence than the fighting between the Gith and the illithids, or any of the other "eternal" wars like between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, or Gruumsh and Maglubiyet, or Thrym and Thor, or whoever.


5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?

I don't know, but in my opinion a mirror Sigil (let's call it Rune) shouldn't exist. It infringes on the importance of Sigil as a fulcrum of the multiverse. (I mean, if there is a second Sigil, why did Vecna intruding into Sigil had those grave rammification for the multiverse?) Also, Rune's existence opens up a lot of uncomfortable questions about the Lady.

[Edreyn]

As always, answers are interesting and I enjoy reading them. Thanks!


Religious fanatics: "Dungeons and Dragons is satanistic! It's full of demons and angels!"

TSR: "Demons and angels? What demons and angels? Those are Tana'ri and Aasimon, honest!"

Religious fanatics: "You are right. That's completly different. Carry on, good citizen."

Good one! :smallbiggrin:


That's exactly what Eldan said, Edreyn. Baator is an invented word, simply for the reason that "Hell" couldn't be used anymore. With "Abyss" one has a degree of seperation to the "hellish" meaning, which grants plausible denieability.

Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?


Draeden are like that. Some of the Elder Evils in the eponymous book are described like that, but they are overhyped. Tharizdun has an reputation like that, but... who knows?

Yes, I remember reading about them in those threads. But can a mortal become something like this? I saw the name Tharizdun before, but don't know who he is.


The Graveyard of the Gods floats in the Astral and is patroled by the Gravekeeper. Aoskar's corpse is there. As far as I know every dead deity has a corpse there.

Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?


I do not see why you the skirmishes between the Gith races considere of equal importance to the Blood War, or even of greater importence than the fighting between the Gith and the illithids, or any of the other "eternal" wars like between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, or Gruumsh and Maglubiyet, or Thrym and Thor, or whoever.

I am writing about conflicts I know from Torment or lore books. As for illithids, I'd say that the conflict between Githyanki, Githzerai and Illithids is one war, just with three sides instead of two. I honestly don't know what is longer - war between deities you mentioned or war of both Gith races with mind flayers. I just was thinking that Blood War and the war of Gith races can be seen as something similar.

I'll update my question then: is there any additional eternal wars that aren't between deities, but between races or species? Outside of Acheron.


I don't know, but in my opinion a mirror Sigil (let's call it Rune) shouldn't exist. It infringes on the importance of Sigil as a fulcrum of the multiverse. (I mean, if there is a second Sigil, why did Vecna intruding into Sigil had those grave rammification for the multiverse?) Also, Rune's existence opens up a lot of uncomfortable questions about the Lady.

Yup. I wonder if there is or was a Lord of Pain. Maybe he offended Lady who had to flee Rune and create Sigil. Now we know why she is that angry on everyone! :smallbiggrin:

[Tzardok]

Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?

Do you really think that the sort of bible swinging fanatic who let themselves be fooled by renaming a daemon a yugoloth knows that "Gehenna" is the Jewish counterpart of Hell?


Yes, I remember reading about them in those threads. But can a mortal become something like this?

No idea.


I saw the name Tharizdun before, but don't know who he is.

I'll just let Afro from the 1st thread do the introductions:



Speaking of Tharizdun, what exactly is he that makes the other gods quake in there boots?

A dreadful bore. Seriously, if you ever have dinner with the guy, you'll want to throw him in a Demiplane of Imprisonment too. Doesn't help that he argues about his cut of the bill when the time comes to pay up.

Oh wait, you meant the other Tharizdun.

The Dark God, The Ender, He of Eternal Darkness, the Ebon God, the Black Sun, the Patient One, He Who Waits, the Wrongly Held, the Anathema, the Father of Elder Evils, the Author of Wickedness, the Eater of Worlds, the Despised, the Undoer, the Chained God.

Don't have dinner with him, either.

Tharizdun is a... well he's a thing. In his current form, he is an intermediate power of divine rank 11, bound within the Demiplane of Imprisonment by a coalition of powerful deities. The power he extends is limited and must frequently be focused through one of his artifacts to be employed; however, his current power is vastly superior to the small number of worshipers he possesses, something that should not be possible.

Tharizdun is old. Speculation ties him to the Far Realm, and certainly most of his followers are quite insane, but the nature of him doesn't add up. To the learned of the far-off world of Mystara, he might be described as an Immortal of Entropy... but again, it's not a perfect fit. Perhaps the Dark God is no more than any other divinity, only more ardent in his active pursuit of destructive evil... or perhaps he is something that arose in the cosmology that predated the Great Wheel, an infection from out of time that escaped the dying days of an older order.

Tharizdun is anathematic. His dogma is written thus: "The very threads of existence must be torn asunder, then burned, then the ashes scattered, until all is nothing and no one exists to remember existence." Tharizdun despises existence in each and every one of its permutations.

Tharizdun is insidious. He has no true allies, but has been linked to the Princes of Elemental Evil in one guise (that of the Elder Elemental Eye) and works with major fiends as his unwitting pawns, including Iuz and Zuggtmoy. For millennia, when Tharizdun's worship was all but dead, a wraithform known only as "the Dark God" lurked in the shadowy reaches of the Outer Planes, spreading nightmares and corruption. This Dark God seeded the black diamond that corrupted the fey goddess now known as the Queen of Air and Darkness. It is now believed that the wraithlike deity was an aspect of Tharizdun, an expression of his malevolence capable of moving outside the Demiplane of Imprisonment and acting as a deity.

If the Far Realm is likened to chaos despite not being truly of Chaos, then Tharizdun is its counterpart in relation to Evil. Even the most blackhearted gods and sinister fiends would be averse to working with the Chained God if they knew of his involvement in events. That this entity retains so much power within the Demiplane of Imprisonment, and yet can move and operate beyond it in many guises, is what sets him (or it) apart from other elder evils and inspires dread in the gods.

If one then remembers that this coalition of deities which imprisoned him included virtually all greater powers of Oerth, regardless of alignment, one has quite a nice picture of him.
And really. Dinner was horrible.


Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?

The word Garveyard implies more than it is. It's just a bunch of rocks that used to be gods clustered in the same general area. The Guardian of Dead Gods was addressed a few times in those threads. He used to be Anubis of the Pharaonic pantheon, but stopped being a god (and being Anubis) when he took his new duties. Anyway, I would start with this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22432995&postcount=222) in the 6th thread.


Yup. I wonder if there is or was a Lord of Pain. Maybe he offended Lady who had to flee Rune and create Sigil. Now we know why she is that angry on everyone! :smallbiggrin:

That would imply that Sigil is the lesser city. That... I mean... yeah...

[Edreyn]

Do you really think that the sort of bible swinging fanatic who let themselves be fooled by renaming a daemon a yugoloth knows that "Gehenna" is the Jewish counterpart of Hell?

Guess not.


I'll just let Afro from the 1st thread do the introductions:


Speaking of Tharizdun, what exactly is he that makes the other gods quake in there boots?
A dreadful bore. Seriously, if you ever have dinner with the guy, you'll want to throw him in a Demiplane of Imprisonment too. Doesn't help that he argues about his cut of the bill when the time comes to pay up.

Oh wait, you meant the other Tharizdun.
...


Wow! Now this is... really scary! As before, interesting to read articles like this.

One part of the long quote reminded me of a question I wanted to ask long ago, but kept forgeting.


It is now believed that the wraithlike deity was an aspect of Tharizdun

So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another? I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?

[Tzardok]

So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another?
Simple. Shar is a lying liar who lies. (I'm noticing a trend in those questions...) Shar does this thing where her church infiltrates other religions and slowly makes them believe that their god is just an aspect of Shar. This leads, if not counteracted, to Shar subsuming the other deity. Shar did this successfully with Ibrandul, a deity of caves and dungeons, and currently tries with the Chultan deity Eshowdow. Sharess specifically was saved from being subsumed and the infection of Shar worshippers in her cult destroyed through the help of Sune.
Shar isn't the only deity who uses this tactic. Set for example successfully subsumed the Faerûnian yuan-ti deity Sseth.


I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?

And this is your problem. Planescape deities aren't people. They are forces of (super-) nature that occassionally look like people. They can be in many places at once. They can form avatars and aspects. A deity can sense things miles away, hear every instance of their name spoken by a mortal, notice every event involving their portfolio in their area of worship, sometimes weeks before it happens. A deity's personality is formed by their portfolio and the beliefs of their worshippers, not the other way round.
A deity is not a person. It's a power.

[Edreyn]

Thank you for answering about Sharess and Shar.
One final question about them: is the similarity of their names just a coincidence?


And this is your problem. Planescape deities aren't people. They are forces of (super-) nature that occassionally look like people. They can be in many places at once. They can form avatars and aspects. A deity can sense things miles away, hear every instance of their name spoken by a mortal, notice every event involving their portfolio in their area of worship, sometimes weeks before it happens. A deity's personality is formed by their portfolio and the beliefs of their worshippers.
A deity is not a person. It's a power.

Okay, I can accept this. The quote reminded me something from Norse mythology. This religion is old gone, but still a religion, so I don't know if it can be discussed. Probably not.

But I do want to explain why I said that deities in this cosmology are people.

Remember Avatars series? Yes, in three original books deities looked and behaved as people because Ao forced them to this. But the fourth book (different author I think) describes them already after this. And why I say that they behave as people, though their alignments are extreme.

Midnight\new Mystra still loved Kelemvor, but suspected he now sees her physical form as a mummy. Cyric was cheating and plotting as he did in life. It took gods so much of effort and time to reclaim Cyrinishad, and then Mask stole it again, just for lulz. He also said, leave me alone, stealing is my nature. Kelemvor even tried to continue being honest judge of souls, and started sending souls to the Wall only after being scolded by Ao. And it was Cyric who snitched on Kelemvor to Ao about this.

Even in the first book, Helm, the only one who wasn't made mortal, in the scene when he killed old Mystra, while he really created a few forms of himself, he still had a humanoid form and talked like a usual devoted warrior.
Those series do describe deities as people, and they do behave as people.
Are they considered canon or not?

[Tzardok]

Thank you for answering about Sharess and Shar.
One final question about them: is the similarity of their names just a coincidence?

No. Sharess had another name before Shar got her hooks into her. She used to be the Mulhorandi pantheon's Bast, hence her having cats in her portfolio.


But I do want to explain why I said that deities in this cosmology are people.

Remember Avatars series? Yes, in three original books deities looked and behaved as people because Ao forced them to this. But the fourth book (different author I think) describes them already after this. And why I say that they behave as people, though their alignments are extreme.

Midnight\new Mystra still loved Kelemvor, but suspected he now sees her physical form as a mummy. Cyric was cheating and plotting as he did in life. It took gods so much of effort and time to reclaim Cyrinishad, and then Mask stole it again, just for lulz. He also said, leave me alone, stealing is my nature. Kelemvor even tried to continue being honest judge of souls, and started sending souls to the Wall only after being scolded by Ao. And it was Cyric who snitched on Kelemvor to Ao about this.

Even in the first book, Helm, the only one who wasn't made mortal, in the scene when he killed old Mystra, while he really created a few forms of himself, he still had a humanoid form and talked like a usual devoted warrior.
Those series do describe deities as people, and they do behave as people.
Are they considered canon or not?

The books are canon. Maybe I was a bit overeager when I said they aren't people. Let me correct myself: they are more than people. Talos isn't just a boisterous guy who likes smashing things and enjoys a good thunderstorm. He is Destruction and Storm and Conflagration, shaped into a semi-human mindshed and body through the beliefs and ideas of his worshippers. Shar isn't just a superpowered goth who enjoys people being depressed. She is Darkness. She is Loss and Desolation. She is The Night.

She is Batman.

To take another example, look at Chauntea. When she was born, she was the Earth Mother. She was nature, red in tooth and claw. She was fertility and fecundity, animals and plants fighting for suvival, feeding, mating and dying. See what she is now, after being changed by millenia of worship. She is the Neutral Good goddess of agriculture, the gentle mother of summer, the patroness of farmers and gardeners. That wasn't just a person switching jobs or changing hobbies. That was a transformation, a shifting of her fundamental nature.

[Efrate]

That chauntea bit brings to mind a question. Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore? Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed? Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?

[Thurbane]

Quick question about the Realms goddess Shar: does she have any notable followers or minions that are vampires?

[Wise Weasel]

Good to see a new thread from you, Afroakuma!
1) What does the name "Baator" means, or what's it named after in real life? Other planes are named after real\mythological\historical places (Arcadia, Gehenna, Elisium) or self-explanatory (Beastlands, Carceri, Mechanus). Limbo is from Divine Comedy by Dante. But after what Baator is named?

Baator is a made up word to replace 'Hell' and it has no meaning.



a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.

Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
Can a mortal receive such power?

Yes. Several such creatures all ready exist like this. Dahak, Ma Yaun(the killer of gods), Apep(Apophis), Fenris, Jormungandr and Kezif the Chaos Hound.

The power for a mortal....doubtful.



3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so?
From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.

But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?

Well....Myrkul is a special case as he cheated death by hiding in an artifact.

Sometimes "dead' deities can and do grant spells...sometimes another friendly god steps in to do this, and sometimes it's just a mystery. (3E even had a feat you could take to get power from a dead god).

It's general hard to bring a god back....but possible. And anything can be eradicated.

Sure, it's possible, in theory, to resurrect any god.

Mystra, Myrkul, Bhaal and Bane are all special cases....see they all knew they were going to die and planned ahead. Of those four, only Mystra "really died", and it was of her own choice as she passed on her godhood and name to another.....she was eradicated(much like the Mystra before her).



4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one?
I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.

You can't really apply the Rule of Three to something as simple as a war. After all what counts as a 'major war'. Good vs evil and law vs chaos would count as two wars, right? How about elves vs orcs? Gnomes vs goblins? The elemental wars?




5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?

Anything is possible sure....maybe. I've never seen any lore on it.



Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?

Classic case of slipping stuff past the radar.

They scream "no demons no hell!"

TSR-"Um, ok, how about Gehenna and Limbo?'

They mumble-"Um, no problem. I don't even know those two words."



Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?

I think the only major source is The Complete guide to the Astral Plane 2E.




I'll update my question then: is there any additional eternal wars that aren't between deities, but between races or species? Outside of Acheron.

Elf vs drow, elf vs orc, gnome vs goblin, dwarf vs orc, dwarf vs duegar, and all the elemental ones.



So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another? I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?

Keep in mind the gods are a big mystery so no mortal really "knows" anything about them for sure that is a "fact".

Sharess is an aspect manifestation of Bast...and, well, it's complicated. She has nothing to do with Shar at all, despite the similar names.

A god is not a "person", they are beings. It's complicated, again, but technically when you see a god acting that is an avatar of the god, not the god. And avatar's are "people". Depending on the gods power level, they can have several avatars. And each avatar can be different. And gods can have aspects too.

And that is on top of a single god can have many names and be worshiped by each.



Are they considered canon or not?

They are all avatars. The books even say so. Mystra, Cyric and Mask are all quite busy during those stories...and often are doing several things all at the same time. There was, for example, one bit before the climax where Mystra sends a dozen avatars out to send messages to each god she wanted to talk too.

As Mystra, Kelvmor and Cyric were all new gods....having been mortals not to long ago....they were naturally still acting like mortals: This is a plot point in both books.


That chauntea bit brings to mind a question. Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore? Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed? Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?

Well....yes. The Old, Wild Chauntea became an aspect called the Earthmother.


Quick question about the Realms goddess Shar: does she have any notable followers or minions that are vampires?


Dahlia Vhammos one of the leaders of the Night Masks

[afroakuma]

Do I even have a job to do anymore? :smallsigh:

Also, a reminder, for the love of all that is ancient and Baatorian, please please please do not invoke real-world religion in this thread, lest it cease to be a thread. There is absolutely no reason to mention the holy book of any present-day religion, or to refer to old world religions in a context other than the mythologically-derived elements offered up in D&D.

[Edreyn]

Okay, let's stop discussing religion-related things. I got my answer, thanks everyone.

Afro, what's your personal opinion about anti-Sigil below the Spire?

[Bartmanhomer]

What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?

What am I, chopped liver? Did anybody forget my question already? :annoyed:

[afroakuma]

What is the relationship between the Chinese Pantheon's Celestial Bureaucracy and the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara Tur? Same Celestial Emperor, different functionary gods? Same pantheon with different names? Entirely unrelated?

Same Celestial Emperor, different functionaries would appear to be the intent. The functionaries of Kara-Tur appear to be of minor standing compared to those of the Chinese Pantheon writ large.


What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?

A very long time ago, seven martyrs to the cause of law and good were reborn on the Mount as the first tome archons, the Celestial Hebdomad. In the time between then and now, six of them have died and been replaced.

For the most part, their role doesn't distinctively involve challenging the Lords of the Nine; Barachiel oversees the defense of the first layer against incursion; Erathaol predicts major planar events; Raziel would be the vanguard general of Celestia if there was a need to lead a force off-plane for any reason; and Sealtiel ensures that the highest layer is protected from any unworthy beings attempting to enter.


That chauntea bit brings to mind a question. Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore? Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed? Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?

Chauntea remembers herself in all aspects, she just considers herself more complete now. Aspects of Chauntea are worshiped in many lands under many names and with many attributes, though they are not independent deities. Certain principles and precepts remain central to Chauntea specifically and not other deities; for instance, she has never been a goddess of the hunt, and so veneration of the hunt would go to Malar, not Chauntea. She is not goddess of the woodlands; veneration of the forest's bounty would go to Mielikki.


Afro, what's your personal opinion about anti-Sigil below the Spire?

That sounds dumb.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I know canon is pretty short of things to say on unique archons, guardinals and eladrin; is there any particularly good fanon?

[Bartmanhomer]

A very long time ago, seven martyrs to the cause of law and good were reborn on the Mount as the first tome archons, the Celestial Hebdomad. In the time between then and now, six of them have died and been replaced.

For the most part, their role doesn't distinctively involve challenging the Lords of the Nine; Barachiel oversees the defense of the first layer against incursion; Erathaol predicts major planar events; Raziel would be the vanguard general of Celestia if there was a need to lead a force off-plane for any reason; and Sealtiel ensures that the highest layer is protected from any unworthy beings attempting to enter.What about Domiel, Pistis Sophia and Zaphkiel? :confused:

[Bohandas]

I've got a question that's been bugging me. Why is Carceri, the notorious prison plane, so comparatively easy to leave compared to places like Athas, Hades, the Plane of Dread, and even Elysium?

[Lagtime]

I've got a question that's been bugging me. Why is Carceri, the notorious prison plane, so comparatively easy to leave compared to places like Athas, Hades, the Plane of Dread, and even Elysium?

It depends on what rules and what edition you use. In 2E the plane could not be left by any means other then the Styx or natural...and rare... portals on the first layer.

So if a PC plane shifted to Carceri, they would be stuck there unless they found a way out.

Of course, by the time of 3E, so many players whined and cried about the "unfair" stuff in D&D that they changed it to Carceri is just a place.

[Yora]

In Planescape, the only physical exits out of Carceri are portals to the Outlands, Hades, and the Abysss on the first layers, and taking a boat on the Styx. The portals on the first layer exist only on every fifth orb, and getting a whole party from one orb to the next can be quite a challenge. And then you also might have to cross that entire orb to make the next flight to the next orb in the line. And to make things worse, most gates are guarded.

A special rule applies in Carceri, but it doesn't really have a specific mechanic. Everyone who has been send to Carceri as a prisoner can only use the portals after they have become more powerful than the people who imprisoned them there. What specifically more powerful could mean is up to the GM case by case.

A simple plane shift spell should also do the job, but being a 7th level spell is far out of reach for most people who have been exiled there.

It is relatively easy to get in and out for a typical Prime party that has become powerful enough to go on adventures throughout the planes with their own magical powers. But Planescape is designed as a setting where low and mid level characters travel the planes as well. And these people are usually completely reliant on using the portals with no access to powerful spells or magic items.
A 15th level fighter would be a very powerful opponent on a prime world, but without a 14th level cleric or wizard who comes to find him and get him out, he'd be stuck there.

[afroakuma]

I know canon is pretty short of things to say on unique archons, guardinals and eladrin; is there any particularly good fanon?

There is not. TSR was lazy with these, and WotC never bothered fixing it. Not a ton of demand, you understand.


What about Domiel, Pistis Sophia and Zaphkiel? :confused:

Domiel defends the second layer and his mandate to oppose tyranny would be pointless in the Hells, not much cause for him to go. Pistis Sophia doesn't leave her layer to go poking devils, she has other things to be on with. Zaphkiel oversees all of Mount Celestia and wouldn't go down to the front lines where he'd be leaving his charge at greater risk. All of them are boring. Note: not all three. All seven.


I've got a question that's been bugging me. Why is Carceri, the notorious prison plane, so comparatively easy to leave compared to places like Athas, Hades, the Plane of Dread, and even Elysium?

The Doylist perspective was touched on by Lagtime and Yora; the Watsonian one is that Carceri knows who its prisoners are and are not; more importantly, it's not that Carceri doesn't want you to leave; it's that Carceri doesn't want you to be capable of escaping. Carceri has no use for a destroyed and hollowed soul like the Gray Wastes create; it doesn't want to trap you there because you've given up on being elsewhere. Carceri wants you to keep aspiring to something you can't have because you stop right before the finish line to make sure nobody else gets there. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality) The spite, selfishness, and suspicion of Carceri are infectious in their own insidious way. Carceri is a prison whose bars are forged of one's own flaws, whose shackles are fired in the venomous certitude that you are so much better than all these other schmucks, and you just need to make sure they all get the picture before you finally given them all the laugh. It pulls you in like quicksand, until you become part of the problem and deny yourself an escape. In many ways, it's the same way that the Demiplane of Dread locks in its newest members, only Carceri wants everyone, and it doesn't so much mind if you slipped out today... if you've ever had cause to come to Carceri, then someday, you'll be back, one way or another, and the plane can wait.

[Yora]

To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?

Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?

[Tzardok]

To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?

Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?

The Shadow Plane existed in 2e, but only as a particularly old, big and well-known Etheral demiplane. There were fanmade attempts to reinterprete it, for example as an Inner Plane lying on the point where Positive and Negative touch. It's status as a transitive plane is new in 3e.

[Lagtime]

To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?

Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?

The campaign setting boxed set had no spells in it, but the other books like the Planewalker Handbook did. Few of the 2E Planescape spells even made it into 3E, let alone 5E. A lot of them were very useful for planewalkers, but of little use to anyone else. They have only been updated by fans.

The shadow plane was just the Demi Plane of Shadow back in 2E....not the big scary Shadowfall of 4E/5E. The only shadow spells in 2E were illusion shadow spells....and few were ever converted.

[Yora]

Something else I've been wondering. Do people in the outer planes use calendars to track the passage of time? I believe none of the outer (or inner) planes have regular seasons, or any cycle other than day and night. And many not even that.

[Tzardok]

Something else I've been wondering. Do people in the outer planes use calendars to track the passage of time? I believe none of the outer (or inner) planes have regular seasons, or any cycle other than day and night. And many not even that.

I remember a fan-made calendar for Sigil. Was invented by the Fraternity of Law to "reflect" the Wheel. I can't find the source anymore, but I think I may have my German translation saved somewhere. If you are interested, I could search for it?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I remember a fan-made calendar for Sigil. Was invented by the Fraternity of Law to "reflect" the Wheel. I can't find the source anymore, but I think I may have my German translation saved somewhere. If you are interested, I could search for it?

I believe this (https://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/sigil-calendar-0) is the one you're thinking of.

[Bohandas]

2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul).

If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.
...
Can a mortal receive such power?

I don't know about god killing, but I do know that in the Greyhawk setting the (formerly) mortal wizard Zagyg Yragerne canonically imprisoned nine low-ranking deities in his basement, as part of a (successful) plan to become divine himself. (although one of them, Iuz, doesn't count for the purpose of this question because Zagyg received direct aid from one of Iuz's divine rivals)

[Tzardok]

I believe this (https://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/sigil-calendar-0) is the one you're thinking of.

Exactly. Thank you! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I'd like to second the question Yora prompted: Do the Planes have seasons? Except for Arcadia (manually steered seasons that are exactly three months long) and Ysgard's first layer (more extreme versions of the normal seasons) I have no idea.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't know about god killing, but I do know that in the Greyhawk setting the (formerly) mortal wizard Zagyg Yragerne canonically imprisoned nine low-ranking deities in his basement, as part of a (successful) plan to become divine himself. (although one of them, Iuz, doesn't count for the purpose of this question because Zagyg received direct aid from one of Iuz's divine rivals)

In the Dragonlance Legends trilogy, Caramon Majere travels into the future, where his twin Raistlin has defeated first Takhsis, Queen of Darkness, then destroyed the other gods and all life on Krynn, save Astinus, the aspect of Gilean the Recorder, and Par-Salian, the former head of the Order of High Sorcery, who has been transformed into a marble statue and condemned to die as the last man on earth. After Caramon returns to the present, Raistlin reads his mind, accepts Caramon's experience in the future as both true and the inevitable consequence of his victory, and chooses to abandon his quest for godhood and, not incidentally, be tortured by Takhsis forever*.

*admittedly, for a limited value of forever

[Yora]

I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?

[Tzardok]

I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?

Shekinester seems to have been around for a long time. Monster Mythology, a 2e sourcebook, has the earliest mention. I haven't found a mention of Parrafaire outside of the 3.5 sourcebook Serpent Kingdoms, but that doesn't necessarily mean much.

[Lagtime]

Also, I'd like to second the question Yora prompted: Do the Planes have seasons?

I don't think this ever really gets mentioned. The Astral, Etherial and Elemental planes all have weather. Divine realms can have whatever weather or seasons the deity wants.

Other planes are not natural places like the Prime, so really they would not have "seasons", but a lot more just changing weather.


I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?

2E Monster Mythology is the first mention. After that though, there is not much. On Hallowed Ground has a bit, as does the FR Serpent Kingdoms book.

[Sharqking]

Are there any named elemental cults of the para or quasi elements? I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult, and possibly Bwimb II, but I haven't seen any reference to any elemental cults outside of the main 4 elements.

[Lord Haart]

I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult

I've heard he got so pissed that people keep mixing him up with Cryonax, he blew up Cyre.

[Thurbane]

There was a 1E or 2E module where a Ki-Rin owed the party a favour. Later in the module, the party were in a Negative Energy Demi Plane of some sort (sorry for the vagueness on details, this was a LONG time ago) trying to track down an artifact to kill a lich, or something similar. When we called on the Ki-Rin to help us, he said he can't travel to that plane, as his "goodness" (i.e. Positive Energy) would cause a massive explosion if he entered a Negative Dominant plane.

Now, its entirely possible none of this was written in the module, and was entirely the DM ad-libbing or home brewing. In fact, I suspect that to be the case.

My loosely related question is: are there any instances where a particular creature entering a particular plane would have widespread destructive consequences, such as an explosion or similar?

[Efrate]

There was 3.0 AP that had you do a section on the plane of ice and you meet Cyronax and he sends you to someplace to continue the adventure. You get there I think from something cult related, but I cannot for the life of me remember it though I ran part of it at one point. This is all kind of fever dream haze but I do remember it.

[Thurbane]

Are there any named elemental cults of the para or quasi elements? I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult, and possibly Bwimb II, but I haven't seen any reference to any elemental cults outside of the main 4 elements.

Cryonax apparently has a cult that mainly consists of "frost giants, malasyneps, evil arctic druids, and spellcasters who employ cold-based spells". Also, Yeti supposedly worship him as a god, as do an arctic offshoot of hobgoblins known as "amitoks".

This cult may or may not be known as "The Frostblood Cult".

A lot of potential Cryonax cultists are probably drawn to Thrym or Father Llymic instead.

[Laughing Dog]

There was a 1E or 2E module where a Ki-Rin owed the party a favour. Later in the module, the party were in a Negative Energy Demi Plane of some sort (sorry for the vagueness on details, this was a LONG time ago) trying to track down an artifact to kill a lich, or something similar. When we called on the Ki-Rin to help us, he said he can't travel to that plane, as his "goodness" (i.e. Positive Energy) would cause a massive explosion if he entered a Negative Dominant plane.

Now, its entirely possible none of this was written in the module, and was entirely the DM ad-libbing or home brewing. In fact, I suspect that to be the case.

My loosely related question is: are there any instances where a particular creature entering a particular plane would have widespread destructive consequences, such as an explosion or similar?

While it wouldn't exactly be widespread destruction, having a Xag-Ya enter the Negative Energy Plane or a Xeg-Yi enter the Postive Energy Plane would probably not be something you want to stand close to. They are composed of positive and negative energies respectively and have an annoying tendency to charge each other on "sight", causing a 30 ft radius explosion that deals 2d8+18 points of damage. They also otherwise do 1d8+9 points of damage upon death in a 20-ft radius if reduced to 0 hitpoints. This comes from their listing in Manual of the Planes, pages 168 and 169.

[Yron]

If one were to look for pieces of the Staff of Fraz'Urb-luu, where would they look? I understand, that, given entities involved in its destruction, "literally anywhere" is probably the answer, but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

I just have this idea of a campaign, where the PCs are agents of Fraz'Urb-luu, scouring the planes in search of the staff. Seems like a perfect planehopping adventure framework.

What powers would individual pieces possess, if found? The artifact supposedly "combines the powers of the staff of command, a rod of beguiling, and a rod of rulership". There's also the writeup in Dragon #333 that has a complete staff.

Also, are there any mentions of Sckurchur demons outside of the 3.5 Demonomicon article? They seem somewhat random and extremely niche with "imersonating halflings and gnomes" being their shtick.

[Tzardok]

If one were to look for pieces of the Staff of Fraz'Urb-luu, where would they look? I understand, that, given entities involved in its destruction, "literally anywhere" is probably the answer, but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Pandemonium's lowest layer, Agathion, is a nice place for stashing things you don't want found. Some of the planes with a lot of void between the "landmasses" (Carceri, Archeron, Gehenna) could have stashes far off the beaten paths. Depending on how difficult you want to make things non-standard planes that aren't easily found (like the Plane of Faerie, the Plane of Mirrors or the Cordant Planes) could also be possible.


What powers would individual pieces possess, if found? The artifact supposedly "combines the powers of the staff of command, a rod of beguiling, and a rod of rulership". There's also the writeup in Dragon #333 that has a complete staff.

I think it depends on how many parts there are and how powerful you want them to be. The most simple way to stat them would be in my opinion to take every spell the whole thing can cast and put it on a single piece.


Also, are there any mentions of Sckurchur demons outside of the 3.5 Demonomicon article? They seem somewhat random and extremely niche with "imersonating halflings and gnomes" being their shtick.

I didn't find anything else, but I think you misunderstand their shtick. The theme of the sckurchur is insinuating itself as a trusted advisor and then render their leader into a puppet ruler that furthers whatever agenda of chaos and evil the sckurchur has. (Also, I think their ability to prettify people at the cost of their willpower would make them popular with modelling agenturs in reality.)
The fact that they generally impersonate halflings or gnomes seems to be incidental to their shapechanging ability being restricted to their size. What other small humanoids should they disguise themselves as? Goblins?

Edit: In completely unrelated speakings, does anybody know wether the names of the layers of Gehenna, Acheron, Arkadia and the Beastlands mean anything or why they are called this?

[afroakuma]

To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?

I'm going with a very soft "no" on that if only because trawling through all of the 2nd Edition spells so that I can then match them against the 5th Edition list, with which I have zero familiarity, is well out of scope for me.


Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?

As Tzardok mentioned, Shadow was a demiplane in 2nd Edition, although a rather prominent one (it's worth noting that shadow evocation is slightly more potent (4th level spell cap) than shadow magic, its cognate from 2nd Edition). As part of the cosmic restructuring that the Lady of Pain was forced to do in the wake of Vecna's attack on Sigil, Shadow became a true Transitive Plane.


Something else I've been wondering. Do people in the outer planes use calendars to track the passage of time? I believe none of the outer (or inner) planes have regular seasons, or any cycle other than day and night. And many not even that.

I would imagine there are methods that apply to various realms, which would also likely be the denomination for seasons in most cases. The Lower Planes all have seasons, of course, as described below:

• Acheron: Football and hockey
• Baator: By layer (Fireball and slightly less fireball; suppression and repression; dreary and horrid; summer x4; winter x4; gross and nasty; construction and road work; winter x8 somehow; and in Nessus it's all about the fall).
• Gehenna: Bad and worse
• Hades: By layer (Flu; winter and that part of spring where you're like "isn't it supposed to be spring now, though?"; summer and fall but exclusively the days where you're like "this isn't how this season is supposed to be, I hope tomorrow is better" and then it never will be)
• Carceri: Spring to erroneous conclusions about your neighbor's nefariousness, suimmer in discontent, fall under suspicion, and while it's never really winter you will always be getting the cold shoulder.
• The Abyss: By layer.
• Pandemonium: Tornado and hurricane.


I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?

Shekinester and Parrafaire originated in Monster Mythology, I believe.


Are there any named elemental cults of the para or quasi elements? I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult, and possibly Bwimb II, but I haven't seen any reference to any elemental cults outside of the main 4 elements.

None come to mind, though Cryonax definitely has Material Plane cults. The rest likely do not, though I suppose a cult of Sun Sing is a particularly eerie notion...


are there any instances where a particular creature entering a particular plane would have widespread destructive consequences, such as an explosion or similar?

I mean, "widespread" no. As Not Tzardok mentioned, the only things that annihilate are energons, and it would be a tiny little fart in a vast and uncaring Energy Plane.


If one were to look for pieces of the Staff of Fraz'Urb-luu, where would they look? I understand, that, given entities involved in its destruction, "literally anywhere" is probably the answer, but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

All kinds of fun places to hide things. As Tzardok noted, Pandemonium's lowest layer is a wonderful hiding place. Give one to the Sunan of the Dukhani, a valuable piece of her royal regalia that lets her see through deceptions. Sneak one into the swamps of Belierin, where the guardinals zealously protect their secrets. The sands of Pelion, the whirling ice of Ocanthus, a spell weaver tomb floating in the Ethereal Plane...


What powers would individual pieces possess, if found? The artifact supposedly "combines the powers of the staff of command, a rod of beguiling, and a rod of rulership". There's also the writeup in Dragon #333 that has a complete staff.

I mean, it depends how many pieces there are, and how interesting one wishes to get with them. I can finagle something if you're interested.


Also, are there any mentions of Sckurchur demons outside of the 3.5 Demonomicon article? They seem somewhat random and extremely niche with "imersonating halflings and gnomes" being their shtick.

Nope.


Edit: In completely unrelated speakings, does anybody know wether the names of the layers of Gehenna, Acheron, Arkadia and the Beastlands mean anything or why they are called this?

Eh, well...

Arcadia
• Abellio may have been named for a little-known Gallo-Roman pastoral deity of apple trees. When I say "may have" I mean "was."
• Buxenus was an epithet for the Gallo-Roman version of Mars, and indicates "of box trees."
• Nemausus was a deity/religious site in Celtic Occitan France.

Acheron
• Avalas may derive from French, where "aval" would indicate "downstream." Acheron is the terminus of the Styx.
• Thuldanin appears made up, though it's retroactively Dwarven in nature and is one of the Dwarven netherworlds.
• Tintibulus derives from "tintinnabulation," the sound of bells.
• Ocanthus derives from acanthus meaning "thorned."

The Beastlands
• I got nothin'. Most likely made up, or else from one of the imprecise sources often employed by Gygax and his ilk in that era.

Gehenna
• Likewise, though I will note that khalas in Arabic means "enough" and Khalas is certainly bad enough without needing to go any further down. :smalltongue:

[Tzardok]

I would imagine there are methods that apply to various realms, which would also likely be the denomination for seasons in most cases. The Lower Planes all have seasons, of course, as described below:

• Acheron: Football and hockey
• Baator: By layer (Fireball and slightly less fireball; suppression and repression; dreary and horrid; summer x4; winter x4; gross and nasty; construction and road work; winter x8 somehow; and in Nessus it's all about the fall).
• Gehenna: Bad and worse
• Hades: By layer (Flu; winter and that part of spring where you're like "isn't it supposed to be spring now, though?"; summer and fall but exclusively the days where you're like "this isn't how this season is supposed to be, I hope tomorrow is better" and then it never will be)
• Carceri: Spring to erroneous conclusions about your neighbor's nefariousness, suimmer in discontent, fall under suspicion, and while it's never really winter you will always be getting the cold shoulder.
• The Abyss: By layer.
• Pandemonium: Tornado and hurricane.

Bwahahahahahaha!


I mean, "widespread" no. As Tzardok mentioned, the only things that annihilate are energons, and it would be a tiny little fart in a vast and uncaring Energy Plane.

That wasn't me, for a change. That was @Laughing Dog. But it's really kind of confusing that there are now three people in this thread with that avatar. :smallsigh:


Eh, well...

Arcadia
• Abellio may have been named for a little-known Gallo-Roman pastoral deity of apple trees. When I say "may have" I mean "was."
• Buxenus was an epithet for the Gallo-Roman version of Mars, and indicates "of box trees."
• Nemausus was a deity/religious site in Celtic Occitan France.

Acheron
• Avalas may derive from French, where "aval" would indicate "downstream." Acheron is the terminus of the Styx.
• Thuldanin appears made up, though it's retroactively Dwarven in nature and is one of the Dwarven netherworlds.
• Tintibulus derives from "tintinnabulation," the sound of bells.
• Ocanthus derives from acanthus meaning "thorned."

The Beastlands
• I got nothin'. Most likely made up, or else from one of the imprecise sources often employed by Gygax and his ilk in that era.

Gehenna
• Likewise, though I will note that khalas in Arabic means "enough" and Khalas is certainly bad enough without needing to go any further down. :smalltongue:

Ah, that's interesting. I was assuming that Gehenna's layer were of Hebrew origin, and had a slight leaning regarding Acheron's being Greek, but, well...
Thank you for the research.

[Thurbane]

Well, there's definitely Seasons in the Abyss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DECp8LKurKs)...sorry

[Yron]

First of all, thank you, both Tzardok and afroakuma, for wonderful responses!


I mean, it depends how many pieces there are, and how interesting one wishes to get with them. I can finagle something if you're interested.


Oh, I'm very much interested. If it's not too much trouble.

[Efrate]

I remember seeing somewhere that there is a floating adamantine tower on the positive energy plane that's a gathering ground of sorts for healers/god of healings followers that study rare and weird conditions or somesuch. Was this a random fever dream or something that actually appeared somewhere, and if it's real what do we know about it?

[Thurbane]

I remember seeing somewhere that there is a floating adamantine tower on the positive energy plane that's a gathering ground of sorts for healers/god of healings followers that study rare and weird conditions or somesuch. Was this a random fever dream or something that actually appeared somewhere, and if it's real what do we know about it?

A quick search of 3.X sources didn't find anything. I checked the usual suspects first: Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Divine and Complete Champion.

Web search only found mention in a home brew setting, where there are adamantine towers on the positive energy plane where it borders with the elemental plane of earth. No mention of them being bases for healers etc.

If it doesn't exist, it sounds like a pretty awesome concept, and someone should totally head-canon it! :smallsmile:

[Efrate]

I did in a previous campaign but was wondering if there was an official something. It might have been a random one line plot hook in some book.

The Grand Hospital

On the positive energy plane there exists a floating adamantium tower that is a spot of great pilgrimage for the devotees of the Illmater. Once you find it and gain entrance by a small teleportation circle on the ground, all manner of maladies from magical to mundane are treated by a cadre of clerics and healers of a wide variety of Faith's and of a wide variety of races. Bealnorns(good liches) make up a large amount of functionaries but nearly anyone with true devotion to helping others can be found volunteering.

Inside the positive energy exposure issue is cut off except for a few specific places where varying amounts of the plane is allowed to seep in to supercharge healing.

It has multiple floors, each with an overseer who is one of the foremost expert's on their particular floors' malady.

The first floor is dedicated to diseased of all sorts, their contagion, effects, treatments and sources are extensively recorded and the archives are open to any for a small donation.

The second floor is dedicated to poisons, of all varieties with areas for inhaled poison research cordoned off by various applications of walls of force. Antivenom for nearly any poison magical or mundane are found being produced en masse for use of any who need it.

The third floor specializes is grafts, missing limbs, and other physical alterations of form that may or may not have various repercussions.

The fourth floor is similar to the third but specifically applies to supernatural and magical form altering mistakes like those who have fallen to a chaos beast. They have had success in reverting similar cases without using even stronger magic like limited wish.

The fifth is odd, in that it is a massive research facility and treatment center for drugs from across the multiverse. Friends are common here and are allowed some experimentation with new products so treatments can be developed In tandem. There is a heavy celestial presence but curiously not a single recorded case of violence. Ravages are tested on the fiends as part of their agreement to be able to work there. Devils are the vast majority, and they are bound by contract.

The sixth floor deals with curses of all kinds, including hauntings. Undead are common here as are necromancers and even hexblades. They come to study and provide their expertise.

The seventh floor deals with mental damage caused generally by powerful magic like insanity, mind rape, or connection with the far plane.

The eight and final floor is almost never accessed except for a few select individuals, and is under the purview of a mysterious figure called the administrator. It is said to hold various maladies, spells, and other things so powerful and dangerous that they can only be sealed but not destroyed. Several artifacts are known to be hidden there, as well as many more rumored. No one outside of a select few workers have ever interacted with the administrator and few more than that have ever even ascended.

[Dalmosh]

Is it possible you just homebrewed a bit to flesh out The Hospice (MotP p84)?
It's not specified as adamantium but is a floating tower populated by knights and healers focused on obscure healing devotion.

[Thurbane]

Looking at Imprisoning Cells (the entry after The Hospice in MotP), got me thinking.

If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?

Assume the creature has no means to plane shift or escape its cell without external interference.

[Fable Wright]

If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?

Is there any particular reason Carceri or the Demiplane of Imprisonment wouldn't suit your purposes?

Because if the Demiplane of Imprisonment can hold Tharizdun, whatever you cast adrift there ain't getting out.

[Tzardok]

Looking at Imprisoning Cells (the entry after The Hospice in MotP), got me thinking.

If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?

Assume the creature has no means to plane shift or escape its cell without external interference.

Let me reiterate: Agathion is a wonderful place for stashing things you don't want found. For heaven's sake, they imprisoned Kezef the Chaos Hound down there!

[afroakuma]

Just FYI, I'm taking a brief sabbatical from various activities for a while. I hope to be back to maintaining the thread this weekend, but no guarantees at this time. I appreciate the continued interest!

[Bohandas]

How does Reorx fit into the larger Dwarven and Gnomish pantheons?

[Thurbane]

Is there any particular reason Carceri or the Demiplane of Imprisonment wouldn't suit your purposes?

Because if the Demiplane of Imprisonment can hold Tharizdun, whatever you cast adrift there ain't getting out.

I'm not overly erudite with the outer planes, hence the question. I'll look into Carceri.


Let me reiterate: Agathion is a wonderful place for stashing things you don't want found. For heaven's sake, they imprisoned Kezef the Chaos Hound down there!

Again, planes aren't my strong suit: where would I find more info on Agathion? Oh OK, a sub-plane/level of Pandemonium?

[Fable Wright]

I'm not overly erudite with the outer planes, hence the question. I'll look into Carceri.

Generally speaking, though I don't know where it'd be written in any given edition, when you Plane Shift someone to Carceri, they will be forever unable to leave by any means until they're stronger than you. And if they are stronger, and don't have access to Plane Shift, it is hard to get out.

[Tzardok]

I'm not overly erudite with the outer planes, hence the question. I'll look into Carceri.



Again, planes aren't my strong suit: where would I find more info on Agathion? Oh OK, a sub-plane/level of Pandemonium?

I would recommend the 3e Manual of the Planes as a good starting point for researching the planes; afterwards the different 2e Planescape books give a more in-depth look, esspecially on those properties that were ignored in 3.x. Pandemonium and Carceri are described in, respectively, Planes of Chaos and Planes of Conflict.
Both the mirror of planewalker.net and the Planar Questions Threads are good sources too, but have the problem of finding relevant information.

[afroakuma]

Oh, I'm very much interested. If it's not too much trouble.

My mental bandwidth is lower than I anticipated when I first offered - I still plan to do it and I have a few scratch notes, but it won't be soon. :smallfrown:


If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?

Assume the creature has no means to plane shift or escape its cell without external interference.

No end of obnoxious places to put them. Gehenna and Carceri have voids, for instance - endlessly obnoxious to just launch something into the bleakness of Outer Planar space. Agathion is great for the opposite reason, burying something in a place that's often deadly to even poke around in. Loosing the box in the bladestorm of Ocanthus, either of the energy planes, basically any negative Quasi-Elemental Plane...

Of course your problem is that ultimately there will always be methods to home in on a thing, such that nobody needs to just walk to it. Nevertheless, you can make the location pretty odious. I would not recommend the Demiplane of Imprisonment, if only because it might result in a worse outcome in the long run. We do not tamper with Tharizdun's prison.


How does Reorx fit into the larger Dwarven and Gnomish pantheons?

He does not; he's not a member of either, and was originally a human deity (he still has some human followers, no less) - the minoi are the result of a curse he laid on his largest sect, and the dwarves and kender of Krynn originated due to the power of Chaos transforming minoi. Reorx has limited, though not antagonistic, relations with the dwarven and gnomish pantheons, most particularly in areas of shared interest.

[Bohandas]

No end of obnoxious places to put them. Gehenna and Carceri have voids, for instance - endlessly obnoxious to just launch something into the bleakness of Outer Planar space. Agathion is great for the opposite reason, burying something in a place that's often deadly to even poke around in. Loosing the box in the bladestorm of Ocanthus, either of the energy planes, basically any negative Quasi-Elemental Plane...

Of course your problem is that ultimately there will always be methods to home in on a thing, such that nobody needs to just walk to it.

What about setting them adrift in the interstellar pholgiston? Isn't that region disconnected from the astral plane?

[afroakuma]

What about setting them adrift in the interstellar pholgiston? Isn't that region disconnected from the astral plane?

It is indeed, though it could still be magically located, and spelljammers can move through it. Some kind of sargasso in the phlogiston would be considerably more obnoxious - still ways to do it, but a space boat wouldn't be one of them.

[Edreyn]

After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.

[enderlord99]

After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.

Carceri locals couldn't make a "full scale army" precisely because they're the sort of person who is local to Carceri.

Also: portal key.

[Edreyn]

Carceri locals couldn't make a "full scale army" precisely because they're the sort of person who is local to Carceri.

Won't they make even a temporary alliance for the sake of breaking free? Even demons have some kind of organization and Carceri is less chaotic.

As for portal key, I expect that whatever it is, if Mercy Killers use it all the time, it can be found inside the fortress. And with correct interrogation of prisoners, one can even find what it is exactly.

[Caelestion]

A portal key can be anything, even a word, emotion or memory. Good luck emulating a memory of a place you've never been to, for instance.

As for Carceri, the people who go there are just the sort of people who will actively fight to make other people unhappy or to stop them succeeding. Even if they did somehow make a temporary "alliance", no one would pretend that it would last long and would likely break at just the worst time or (as is more the point) just the best time to backstab their "ally".

[enderlord99]

Won't they make even a temporary alliance for the sake of breaking free? They might claim to. They'd all be lying, if so. Every single one.
Even demons have some kind of organizationNo they don't. Most don't even pretend to. The only one who does pretend to organize anything is Graz'zt, who usually appears extremely organized and is never even remotely close to being anything he appears to be.
and Carceri is less chaotic.In much the same way that a tortoise is less slow than a sloth, yes. Limbo and Pandemonium are both coral in the slow=chaotic analogy.

[Edreyn]

Even if they did somehow make a temporary "alliance", no one would pretend that it would last long and would likely break at just the worst time or (as is more the point) just the best time to backstab their "ally".



They might claim to. They'd all be lying, if so. Every single one.



Even demons have some kind of organization
No they don't. Most don't even pretend to. The only one who does pretend to organize anything is Graz'zt, who usually appears extremely organized and is never even remotely close to being anything he appears to be.

I do understand and agree with this. But unlike Blood War, besieging just one single fortress is a finite goal.
As for demons organization, I meant this - stronger demons can force weaker ones to obey them, like to go and become a cannon fodder at the Blood War.
Can't something like that happen at Carceri?
All the locals need is to get to portal inside the fortress. Can't one strongest creature (Titan?) simply force others to obey, at least for a short time?

Yes, after getting inside Sigil they'll tear each other throats, and Lady won't even have to maze anyone. But can't an army of Carceri inhabitants hold even for a few days?

[enderlord99]

The whole point of Carceri is that you're trapped there by your own spite; if someone were capable of working with others well enough to get out, they wouldn't be there in the first place.

The only thing Carceri's denizens want more than to escape, is to be the only one who escapes.

[Lagtime]

After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.

So, first, of course the Metagame reason starting with 3E, the Planes were made very safe and comfortable, along with everything else in the game. So the "prison" part is mostly in name, as they won't put any negative rules in the book that might make a player sad or unhappy. So the idea that a player might fail a save and be stuck on Carceri would be out of the question.

Second, any planual place with an active portal will have traps and guards. Safe to say that would be 100% more on a plane like Carceri. So getting to the portal would be a chore. Plus, anyone with the magic can also destroy the portal: and this is the ultimate deterrent. At the first sign of an attack, they destroy the portal.

Also 2E portals could be made with all sorts of magical effects, like say tossing anyone with out the right key 1-100 miles away on the same plane, draining life force, and so on. 3E and on dropped all this making all portals safe.

Third, also from 2E: it is true that those exiled to the plane cannot simply escape even via these means. However, they can escape, should they fulfill one condition — if they become stronger than that which exiled them. This strength can take all manner of forms; purely physical, yes, but intelligence, cleverness, subterfuge, any manner of strength can do. It is this that truly encompasses the plane; only the strong deserve success. Not because they can beat everyone beneath them, but because they have beat everyone above them. Thus, if someone cannot leave Carceri, it is solely because they do not yet deserve to. And indeed, though some constantly struggle to escape Carceri and overcome their weakness.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, first, of course the Metagame reason starting with 3E, the Planes were made very safe and comfortable, along with everything else in the game.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Firstly, the 3e rules are just as lethal and dangerous as AD&D; some things are easier (e.g. taking damage while casting lets you try to Concentrate to maintain it instead of just losing the spell) while some things are harder (e.g. monster HP is higher across the board), but in aggregate it's basically the same. Rose-colored glasses aside, the vast majority of the stuff in 3e that AD&D players grumble about is either essentially equivalent but expressed differently (like descending vs. ascending AC), taken right out of the Player Option stuff and just not recognized by people who preferred to stick to the earlier books, or late-2e-as-commonly-houseruled because no one used the rules-as-written anyway.

Secondly and more relevantly, "make the planes accessible to lower-level characters" was Planescape's entire raison d'etre, so complaining that 3e made the planes too "safe and comfortable" is off-target by about 6 years.


So the "prison" part is mostly in name, as they won't put any negative rules in the book that might make a player sad or unhappy. So the idea that a player might fail a save and be stuck on Carceri would be out of the question.

Planescape doesn't have a "save or be stuck" effect for Carceri either, at least not in the Planescape Campaign Setting or Planes of Conflict which I just checked; Carceri is a prison for its petitioners in both editions, not just any berk who wanders by. Elysium and Hades have Entrapping traits in both editions, though.


Also 2E portals could be made with all sorts of magical effects, like say tossing anyone with out the right key 1-100 miles away on the same plane, draining life force, and so on. 3E and on dropped all this making all portals safe.

Nope, all the fun of Planescape portals is preserved in 3e. See Manual of the Planes (p.21-22) and FRCS (p.59-61).

[Bohandas]

No they don't. Most don't even pretend to. The only one who does pretend to organize anything is Graz'zt

The Lords of Woe too, don;t forget them

[Caelestion]

So, first, of course the Metagame reason starting with 3E, the Planes were made very safe and comfortable, along with everything else in the game. So the "prison" part is mostly in name, as they won't put any negative rules in the book that might make a player sad or unhappy. So the idea that a player might fail a save and be stuck on Carceri would be out of the question.

Planescape was a 2nd Ed setting, so why bring up 3E completely asked?

[Lagtime]

This couldn't be further from the truth.

Maybe you never played 2E or maybe you only played a homebrew version or something. But a quick list would be things like poison kills, energy drain takes one or more class levels, system shock rolls, and the start of the removal of the save or die effects.

And then you had the Planescape rules for the magic item 'plus' reduction, clerics being cut off from their gods and getting few spells, and the massive spell alterations for the multiverse.



Secondly and more relevantly, "make the planes accessible to lower-level characters" was Planescape's entire raison d'etre, so complaining that 3e made the planes too "safe and comfortable" is off-target by about 6 years.

Accessible and safe and comfortable are not all the same thing. Only the few complained that "every time my character goes off plane they die": the players that could not handle the more complex rules and settings. Even just a three dimensional fight, common on the planes, is more then some player can handle.




Nope, all the fun of Planescape portals is preserved in 3e. See Manual of the Planes (p.21-22) and FRCS (p.59-61).

????

The 3E rules list a couple things that might happen when a character steps through a portal safe and sound.

It does not list all the fun stuff from Planescape books like the Planewalker Handbook. And if you want FR stuff, you can check out the portals in most Undermountain books, plus places like secrets of the magister.


Though really it all comes down to 2E was the type of game were the DM just said things and they happened, no matter how much the players did not like it.



Planescape was a 2nd Ed setting, so why bring up 3E completely asked?

The thread is in the 3E/D20 subfourm.....

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Some questions for Afro:

1) The 3e D&DG has example monotheistic and dualistic religions in the back, but I can't actually think of any cases where similar religions show up in published settings; even the Silver Flame in Eberron, which appears to be monotheistic at first glance, is syncretic with the Sovereign Host. Do you know of any obscure settings, Spelljammer worlds, etc. that have just one or two gods, or have religions teaching that any other gods besides their one/two god(s) are fakers/demon princes/etc.?

2) Aside from the Spirit Realm of Kara Tur, the Gray and Black of Athas, and the Shadow World of Aebrynis (and kinda sorta Krynn's Ethereal Sea), are there other settings out there that have replacements for or variations on the local Ethereal and/or Shadow Planes?

3) On souls:
a) The fate of the soul after death is fairly well-defined in various materials, but the origin of souls is much less so. Aside from the information on the Wellspring in MoI and the soul fonts in Bastion of Broken Souls, is there any other information on how souls are made, how creatures are ensouled, etc.?
b) What are souls made of? Just pure positive energy (and, if one is using MoI, presumably a bit of essentia), or N parts positive energy to M parts belief-stuff, or...?

----

Spoilering the derail:


Maybe you never played 2E or maybe you only played a homebrew version or something. But a quick list would be things like poison kills, energy drain takes one or more class levels, system shock rolls, and the start of the removal of the save or die effects.

Nope, I've played 1e, 2e, and a bit of BECMI, and the differences are really overblown.
1e has instant-death poison, but only class D poisons kill on a failed save, and they do nothing on a successful save (which is made at +1 vs. assassins or +2 vs. anyone else); 3e has Wyvern Poison and Black Lotus Extract, which deal 4d6 Con and 6d6 Con, respectively, at nontrivial DCs.
Energy drain didn't allow a save or have a delay before draining levels, true, but (A) level loss is much less impactful in AD&D when there's less level-dependent stuff and the "catch-up effect" of being lower level is much larger than in 3e, (B) 3e negative levels are much more accessible to NPCs (e.g. enervation) so they lose severity but make up for it in prevalence, and (C) turning undead is much stronger in AD&D so level-draining undead are not nearly as threatening in practice. And remember how I said a lot of 3e changes were stuff people had been houseruling in AD&D for a while? A lot of players hated AD&D energy drain so much that DMs basically didn't use level-draining undead after the first or second time the party ran into them, so in practice the threat is overstated.
System shock rolls were removed as a mechanic as a unification thing, since they rolled into Fort saves along with save vs. death magic and save vs. petrification, and they were removed from the polymorph line and other spells because they were intended as a balancing mechanism to prevent your party fighter from being a storm giant all the time but it actually gave the PCs a bunch of effective save-or-dies (2e polymorph other requires 3 rolls [save vs. spells, system shock, and Int check] to not be turned into a newt and squished, 3e baleful polymorph requires just 2 [Fort save and Will save]).
There are plenty of save-or-dies in 3e; don't blame 3e for what 4e and 5e did later on. What it doesn't have nearly as many of is no-save-just-dies, which (A) were always an unfun idea, (B) mostly showed up in modules rather than sourcebooks, and (C) were, like energy drain, commonly nerfed or houseruled out due to player/DM dislike.



And then you had the Planescape rules for the magic item 'plus' reduction, clerics being cut off from their gods and getting few spells, and the massive spell alterations for the multiverse.

Spell alterations stuck around in the form of Enhanced, Limited, and Impeded magic traits; clerics don't automatically suffer penalties for being on different planes, but in practice 90% of clerics in Planescape games (as opposed to Clueless clerics who go planeshopping) try to worship causes, elemental gods, or gods with Outlands realms and/or go out of their way to pick up power keys to avoid or strongly mitigate the issue; and magic item plus reduction was removed not to make things better for PCs but because requiring the DM to figure out where every last magic sword was forged and how many planes away the Plane of Fire was from Carceri was a real pain.


Accessible and safe and comfortable are not all the same thing. Only the few complained that "every time my character goes off plane they die": the players that could not handle the more complex rules and settings. Even just a three dimensional fight, common on the planes, is more then some player can handle.

Considering that 3e basically assumes everyone is flying all that time past a certain level, those players would have the same issues in 3e as well.


????

The 3E rules list a couple things that might happen when a character steps through a portal safe and sound.

It does not list all the fun stuff from Planescape books like the Planewalker Handbook. And if you want FR stuff, you can check out the portals in most Undermountain books, plus places like secrets of the magister.

Again, 3e has plenty of unsafe portals. All the one-off portals o' doom like in Undermountain were converted more or less faithfully, and the basic overviews in MotP and FRCS don't go into tons of detail on making portals with more unusual effects (beyond the most common one, teleporting a PC to one place and all their gear to another, which is indeed mentioned in those sections) because 3e has build-your-own-magic-item rules and guidelines that let you add life-draining or whatever else to them if desired.

[Edreyn]

The whole point of Carceri is that you're trapped there by your own spite; if someone were capable of working with others well enough to get out, they wouldn't be there in the first place.

The only thing Carceri's denizens want more than to escape, is to be the only one who escapes.

Now this does answer my question. Thanks!


Planescape doesn't have a "save or be stuck" effect for Carceri either, at least not in the Planescape Campaign Setting or Planes of Conflict which I just checked; Carceri is a prison for its petitioners in both editions, not just any berk who wanders by. Elysium and Hades have Entrapping traits in both editions, though.

Those who wanders by can use portals, but I read in lore books that locals always do their best to not allow anyone to use them. If they are trapped, why allow others to run away?

[afroakuma]

After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.

The simplest problem, and one I've articulated before, is that true denizens of Carceri are the kind of person who would stop right before the finish line so they could turn around to flash the middle finger to everyone else. Carceri is the plane of the monologuing villain who just has to let slip his master plan in an attempt to make the hero even infinitesimally more miserable. It's the plane of sour grapes. Why wouldn't they go after the Mercykillers' portal, or any other known and stable one? Because it would mean accepting on some level the help of others was necessary to do what you couldn't alone, and everyone else in the multiverse is a schmuck. Not only are they all schmucks, but it's also vitally important that you let them know they are all schmucks. Gods forbid someone be allowed to be wrong on the Internet think they were in any way needed, or in any way more powerful than you.


1) The 3e D&DG has example monotheistic and dualistic religions in the back, but I can't actually think of any cases where similar religions show up in published settings; even the Silver Flame in Eberron, which appears to be monotheistic at first glance, is syncretic with the Sovereign Host. Do you know of any obscure settings, Spelljammer worlds, etc. that have just one or two gods, or have religions teaching that any other gods besides their one/two god(s) are fakers/demon princes/etc.?

Lolth controls a couple of worlds where she is the only deity. There was a world depicted in a Dungeon magazine adventure ruled by a trio of deities, which is close but not quite. Jakandor might be closest; the Charonti used to worship a god of death and rebirth called Thanhotep (some few still do), while their opponents the Knorr ubiquitously follow the War Mother. They have some subordinate beliefs (hearth gods, various spirits) but only one unifying deity.


2) Aside from the Spirit Realm of Kara Tur, the Gray and Black of Athas, and the Shadow World of Aebrynis (and kinda sorta Krynn's Ethereal Sea), are there other settings out there that have replacements for or variations on the local Ethereal and/or Shadow Planes?

None immediately spring to mind; I'm assuming Ravenloft doesn't count, considering.


a) The fate of the soul after death is fairly well-defined in various materials, but the origin of souls is much less so. Aside from the information on the Wellspring in MoI and the soul fonts in Bastion of Broken Souls, is there any other information on how souls are made, how creatures are ensouled, etc.?

Bastion of Broken Souls is basically the source for information on preincarnate souls, which spring forth from special places in the Positive Energy Plane.


b) What are souls made of? Just pure positive energy (and, if one is using MoI, presumably a bit of essentia), or N parts positive energy to M parts belief-stuff, or...?

We've never been given the answer in any detail, but the heart of a soul is pure positive energy. As it changes from positive energy into a soul, it acquires what one might call an "address," a unique serial number demarcating its place in the universe as a thing separate from the energy that birthed it, which gives it an identity to the Astral conduits that will transfer it where it belongs. This process of becoming something distinctive is when a soul becomes a soul, and as its energy becomes more than the sum of its parts, it transforms from simple positive energy into the blend of essentia and positive energy that a soul is, linked to its Astral address and its temporal thread.

[Edreyn]

The simplest problem, and one I've articulated before, is that true denizens of Carceri are the kind of person who would stop right before the finish line so they could turn around to flash the middle finger to everyone else. Carceri is the plane of the monologuing villain who just has to let slip his master plan in an attempt to make the hero even infinitesimally more miserable. It's the plane of sour grapes. Why wouldn't they go after the Mercykillers' portal, or any other known and stable one? Because it would mean accepting on some level the help of others was necessary to do what you couldn't alone, and everyone else in the multiverse is a schmuck. Not only are they all schmucks, but it's also vitally important that you let them know they are all schmucks. Gods forbid someone be allowed to be wrong on the Internet think they were in any way needed, or in any way more powerful than you.


Yes, I understand, thanks!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Lolth controls a couple of worlds where she is the only deity. There was a world depicted in a Dungeon magazine adventure ruled by a trio of deities, which is close but not quite. Jakandor might be closest; the Charonti used to worship a god of death and rebirth called Thanhotep (some few still do), while their opponents the Knorr ubiquitously follow the War Mother. They have some subordinate beliefs (hearth gods, various spirits) but only one unifying deity.

Ah, Jakandor, I'd completely forgotten about that one, time for a wiki binge.

What worlds does Lolth control, or where could I read more about that? I initially thought of the worlds behind the gates in Queen of the Demonweb Pits, but those worlds are under invasion by Lolth rather than controlled by her and priests on those worlds can access their own gods just fine.

A triumvirate of gods is pretty close. Do you happen to remember which Dungeon issue that was, or a name I could search for?

[Bartmanhomer]

What does Chronepsis look like?

[Eldan]

What does Chronepsis look like?

https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/images/4/4e/Chronepsis01.JPG

[Bartmanhomer]

https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/images/4/4e/Chronepsis01.JPG

Ok. Thank you. :smile:

[Fable Wright]

Ye of the evil 'fro, I ask you:

How do souls interact with the Inner planes?

Let's say that an adventurer is killed on a demiplane or elemental plane, connected to the Ethereal but with no Astral conduit. What happens when they die? Do they carry an astral conduit with them? Do they get (hypothetically) get sucked up through the Ordial Plane? Does their soul merge with the elemental plane in some manner? Do they become ghosts? And, because this question came up in a Dark Sun game, does the Grey affect the passage of the soul in this occurrance?

Likewise, how do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?

[Tzardok]

Likewise, how do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?

That question sounds awefully familiar... (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?418709-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VI&p=20537851#post20537851)

[Bohandas]

https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/images/4/4e/Chronepsis01.JPG

I imagine him as resting atop a huge pile of HD Rosettas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta) rather than hourglasses

[Dalmosh]

Tome of Magic p198 mentions a Dwarven proclivity towards Truename magic and a trend towards Truename research in Dwarven genealogy and scholarship.

How common are pure classed Truenamers in Dwarven society, and specifically what would they contribute that the much more common, prestigious and generally far more powerful Clerics would not?

[Bohandas]

Also, how do places with multiple sun gods (or multiple gods of other unitary things) that aren't affiliated with each other work? Is it like a bunch of people all messing with the thermostat? Does thy additively make the sun more sunlike? Are they merely sunlike themselves and not actually in control of the sun? Should some be assumed to be visiting gods of some other sun? Are they forced to regulate different aspects of the sun, even if they are understood by mortals as simply THE sun god? Or is it a combination of some of these or something else entirely?

[Bartmanhomer]

I have a few questions:

1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?

2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?

[enderlord99]

I have a few questions:

1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?
NO.

2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?

Both are probably True Neutral, but nobody can really be sure of that.

[tyckspoon]

Both are probably True Neutral, but nobody can really be sure of that.

The concerns of Ao and the Lady are largely orthogonal to alignment. They don't really care about Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos - they are concerned that Sigil and the Forgotten Realms run the way they want them to. So they would likely be perceived as True Neutral within the alignment quadrants, as this is the location of 'can't be bothered either way' characters as well as the lunatic 'everything must be forced into balance at all times' philosophy. If either being actually encouraged having a cult they would probably lean toward Lawful followers, as 'shut up and follow the rules' would be basically the entirety of their belief system.

[Edreyn]

The Lady is too fast to punish people and punishments are always extremely harsh. Doesn't that make her closer to Lawful and maybe Evil? At least one of those? I always imagined her as LN or LE.

[Fable Wright]

The Lady is too fast to punish people and punishments are always extremely harsh. Doesn't that make her closer to Lawful and maybe Evil? At least one of those? I always imagined her as LN or LE.

She also doesn't transcribe her laws, and there can be some inconsistency in how she delivers it—will standing in her shadow cause you to be flayed, or ignored? Will crossing her path be ignored, or not? Why did she randomly decide to end the factions one day in a very abrupt and brutal manner without any prior warning? She's a bit too capricious to be Lawful, a bit too invested in doing good works (like maintaining a free public library) and maintaining the order of the universe without stacking it to her personal benefit to be Evil, and too draconian to be Good.

[ShurikVch]

Maybe, this line from the Al-Qadim is applicable to Ao and Lady of Pain too?

The Great Gods are neither good nor evil, lawful nor chaotic. They are beyond such matters. Bravery can be found in the most noble faris and the most black-hearted assassin, and who is Hajama to turn his ear from either of them? Individual followers or churches may be good or evil, but the Great gods are above these quibbles. This sets them apart from common gods and heathen deities, who are usually lock-stepped into their believers' alignments.

[enderlord99]

Maybe, this line from the Al-Qadim is applicable to Ao and Lady of Pain too?

It applies to Ao (who is an Overgod, which is likely what's being referred to) but not to the Lady (who is not any sort of god)

[ShurikVch]

Lady (who is not any sort of god)
It, probably, was already asked somewhere, but how we can be sure about it?
I mean - it's not like her statblock actually exists, thus - anything goes?..

[tyckspoon]

It, probably, was already asked somewhere, but how we can be sure about it?
I mean - it's not like her statblock actually exists, thus - anything goes?..

Because the Planescape cosmology assigns certain common traits to gods, as a class of beings, and the Lady does not have those traits. (The Planescape cosmology also allows for all kinds of extremely powerful beings that are Not Gods - being a god does not mean you are on top of the power scale. It means you are one of a particular class of beings that fits a group of traits. It also usually means you're pretty powerful but it's not inherent to god-hood.)

[Tzardok]

I've been working on and off on something inspired by this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII&p=24595893#post24595893) in the seventh thread:




I've been re-reading the 3e version of the sha'ir and was thinking about making stats for paraelemental gens when I thought: Are gens related to the Khayal plausible? Could a sha'ir summon a shadow gen? Do the sha'ir's powers even interact with the Khayal?
Sha'ir powers do not interact with the khayal, who dislike the sha'ir as they do other genies. Renegade poet-vagabonds opposed to order, the sa'alik, are the agents and arbiters who work with the khayal. A su'luk cannot be lawful. Sa'alik are said to "walk alone" because their shadows are separate from them, becoming the facilitators for a su'luk's magic in place of the sha'ir's gen. Sa'alik gain access to shadowcasting but have a more difficult time acquiring spells that do not belong to Shadow.

So now I finished the su'luk as an alternate class feature for the sha'ir. Thoughts?


Su'luk
Class: Sha'ir
Special Requirement: Must not be lawful.
Level: 1st
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you don't cast spells, don't gain a Gen Familiar and do not gain the following class abilities: Elemental Protection (5th), Call Janni (7th), Elemental Travel (9th) and Call Genie (11th).
Benefit: Instead of a gen, you grant your own shadow life and use it as a familiar. The stats for this Umbral Familiar are found after this description.
As a su'luk, you can cast mysteries and fundamentals and a few arcane spells. You have access to all paths of shadow magic and to arcane illusion and necromancy spells from the spell list for sorcerers and wizards. Unlike shadowcasters you don't need to follow paths when choosing known mysteries. Instead you use the table of known sha'ir spells to determine how many mysteries, fundamentals and arcane spells you know.
You need to send your familiar to the Shadow Plane to fetch mysteries and spells before you can cast anything. This works by the same rules as a gen familiar fetching spells for his sha’ir master; simply replace all mentions of "arcane spell" with "mystery" and all mentions of "divine spell" with "arcane spell".
You cast your fundamentals as spell-like abilities and your other mysteries as arcane spells. If all mysteries of a single path are among your known mysteries, you cast those as spell-like abilities too. Spells are always cast as spells. All mysteries (both fundamentals and others) that are cast as spell-like abilities can be cast twice after being fetched before fading from your memory. The total number of mysteries/spells per day you are able to cast remains unchanged.
At 5th level you gain darkvision 60 ft. (or + 60 ft. on existing darkvision) and damage reduction 4/- against attacks made by creatures native to the Shadow Plane. Furthermore attacks against you have a 20 % miss chance as long as you are not in bright illumination.
At 7th level you may call a khayal to your aid once per day. This functions as the planar ally spell except that you can call only a single khayal. You must pay the spell's XP cost and bargain with the Khayal as normal. Caster level is equal to class level. At 11th level you may use this ability twice per day.
At 9th level you can use the shadow walk spell as a spell-like ability once per day. At 15th level you can use it twice per day and at 18th level at will.
At 11th level you can once per day per point of cha-mod. order your familiar to fetch a mystery that you usually cast as a spell as a spell-like ability or a mystery that you usually cast as a spell-like ability as supernatural ability. This doubles the time the familiar needs to fetch the mystery. Mysteries cast as a supernatural ability can be cast thrice after being fetched before fading from your memory.


Umbral Familiar
Medium Elemental (Incorporal)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 40 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 11 (+1 deflection), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-
Attack: Incorporal touch +0 melee (1d2)
Full Attack: Incorporal touch +0 melee (1d2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, fetch mysteries, incorporal traits, shadowy travel
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str -, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +5, Spellcraft +5
Feats: Combat CastingB, Improved Initiative
Environment: None
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: None
Alignment: Like the master
Advancement: By the familiar rules
Level Adjustment: -

Fetch Mysteries (Ex): Like the gen's ability to Fetch Spells.

Shadowy Travel (Sp): The umbral familiar can plane shift at will to the Shadow Plane or from there back to the Material Plane. This ability only transports the familiar. It is otherwise identical to the plane shift spell (caster level 13th).

Note: I chose medium size because I think a living shadow should have the same size as its owner. Most sha'irs/sa'alik are humans, so...




And here, as a little extra, the paraelemental gens that caused me to ask that question in the first place. Partially inspired by the paraelemental genies Afro created here: (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII&p=24265537#post24265537)


Ice Gen
Tiny Outsider (Air, Cold, Water)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-9
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 cold)
Full Attack: Two slams +5 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 cold)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks Chill
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +4, Escape Artist +6, Hide +12, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +4, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6
Feats: Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any elemental plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often lawful neutral
Advancement: 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
Level Adjustment: -

Chill (Ex): A ice gen's freezingly cold body deals 1 point of extra cold damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round that it maintains a hold while grappling.

Magma Gen
Tiny Outsider (Earth, Fire)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect), burrow 10 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +1 dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-8
Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d2-1)
Full Attack: Two slams +4 melee (1d2-1)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks -
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 1/adamantite, darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to fire, vulnerability to ice
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +5, Escape Artist +5, Hide +11, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +3, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6
Feats: Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any elemental plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often lawful good
Advancement: 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
Level Adjustment: -

Ooze Gen
Tiny Outsider (Earth, Water)
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +1 dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-9
Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 sound)
Full Attack: Two slams +4 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 sound)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks Vibrations
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to sound, vulnerability to elektricity
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +6, Escape Artist +5, Hide +11, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +3, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6, Swim +6
Feats: Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any elemental plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
Level Adjustment: -

Vibrations (Su): The ooze gens inherited from the sureshi an affinity for sound. A ooze gen deals 1 point of extra sound damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round that it maintains a hold while grappling.

Smoke Gen
Tiny Outsider (Air, Fire)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 70 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-9
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d2-2)
Full Attack: Two slams +5 melee (1d2-2)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks -
Special Qualities: Billow, darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to fire, vulnerability to ice
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +5, Escape Artist +6, Hide +12, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +4, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6
Feats: Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any elemental plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic evil
Advancement: 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
Level Adjustment: -

Billow (Su): Once per round as an immediate action, a smoke gen may allow its physical form to briefly billow out as a cloud of smoke, becoming insubstantial, in response to an attack directed against it. That attack fails to affect the smoke gen. Certain effects which manipulate air or gases (gust of wind, etc.) cannot be effectively avoided in this fashion and take full effect as normal. The smoke gen must be aware of the attack to be able to billow. Any time a smoke gen would be denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it cannot billow.

Notes: The existence of paraelemental gens makes the Elemental Protection class feature of the sha'ir a bit complicated. For one, if the ooze gen is immun to sound, Elemental Protection should also grant resistence to sound and a bonus to saves against attacks based on sound.
More importantly, Elemental Protection grants a damage reduction against attacks by creatures of the four elemental subtypes, with a higher damage reduction against the gen familiar's elemental subtype. As paraelemental gens have two elemental subtypes, this would make them more useful than normal gens.
For balancing I'm thinking of either choosing one of the two subtypes or loosing the lesser damage reduction against the two other subtypes. Thoughts?
Finally, I'm not sure wether Billow is too strong an ability for the smoke gen. The problem is, I'm not sure how to weaken it, I don't want to copy the ability of another gen and I would like to reflect the dukhan genie in some way and the only other ability unique to that one is smokesight, which appears too weak compared to the abilities of the other gens.

[Edreyn]

I have some new questions.

1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?

2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?

3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.

Thank in advance!

[Tzardok]

I have some new questions.

1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?

I'll assume that you mean big races on par with the exemplars or at least the gereleth. Otherwise your question can be answered simply by looking into a Planescape bestiary.
The answer is no. Afro once tried to create such big races for all the in-between planes, and if you know where to look you may find his write-up of the Lamenti, his version of a Pandemonium race, in the archives of this forum. But he stalled, because he couldn't find a clear inspiration for most of those planes. Seems like the gereleth stay the exception, not the rule.


2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?

I am unclear what the question is here. Do you find it confusing that on some planes/divine realms petitioners take the appearance that they had when alive? Are you wondering why living gnomes/whatever are drawn to the same places as dead ones? Or do you want to know how to differentiate between living beings and petitioners in general?


3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.

Thank in advance!

This question I will defere to someone who knows the Planescape books better than I do. If I had to guess I would think that Planes of Conflict would be a good start. IIRC the Rilmani got of all the exemplars the least amount of material in 2e, so you won't find a lot.

[ShurikVch]

Because the Planescape cosmology assigns certain common traits to gods, as a class of beings, and the Lady does not have those traits.
Such as?..
No, I'm serious: Demogorgon is a god in Planescape, but Doresain - isn't.
So, how we can be sure?..



1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?
Bytopia:
Adamantine Dragon (Dragon #321)
Fire Gnome (Planar Handbook)
(2E) Ethyk (Planes of Conflict/Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three)
(2E) Ni'iath (Planes of Conflict)

Beastlands:
Beast Dragon (Dragon #321)
Celestial Wyvern (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040201a)
Dread Blossom Swarm (Monster Manual III)
Gaspar (Planar Handbook)
Hollyphant (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Kadtanach (Dungeon #100)
Spirit of the Wild (Dungeon #148)
Wild Hunter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070601a)
Xap-Yaup Energon (Planar Handbook)
(2E) Animal Lords - Cat, Hawk, Lizard, Wolf (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix/Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix)
(2E) Aeserpent (Planes of Conflict)
(2E) Asrai (Planes of Chaos)
(2E) Mortai (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II/Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix)
(2E) Oread (Planes of Chaos)
(2E) Warden Beast (Planes of Conflict/Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix)

Arcadia:
Arcadian Avenger (Monster Manual V)
Chaturani - Pawn, Knight, Bishop, Rook, Queen, King (Dragon #358)
Guardian Familiar (Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)
Rhek (Book of Exalted Deeds)
(2E) Busen (Planes of Law)
(2E) Formian - Worker, Warrior, Myrmarch, Queen (Planes of Law/Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three)
(2E) T'uen-rin (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II/Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix)

Acheron:
Achaierai
Aspect of Hextor (Miniatures Handbook)
Axiomatic Dragonne (Planar Handbook)
Bladeling (Lord of the Iron Fortress)
Bonespear (Fiend Folio)
Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio)
Justicator (Monster Manual III)
Maug (Fiend Folio)
Reth Dekala (Tome of Battle)
Rust Dragon (Draconomicon)
Siege Beetle (Monster Manual V)
Steelwing (Monster Manual V)
Steel Predator (Fiend Folio)
Xong-Yong Energon (Planar Handbook)
(2E) Fhorge (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II)
(2E) Hook Spider (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II)
(2E) Observer (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II)
(2E) Sword Spirit (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II)
(1E) Sugo (Dragon #47)

Ysgard:
Aspect of Kord (Miniatures Handbook)
Bariaur (Book of Exalted Deeds/Planar Handbook)
Battle Dragon (Draconomicon)
Fensir (Fiend Folio)
Lillend
Valkyrie (Tome of Battle)
(2E) Asrai (Planes of Chaos)
(2E) Oread (Planes of Chaos)

Pandemonium:
Bloodthorn (Fiend Folio)
Empathos (Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)
Garngrath (Monster Manual V)
Hordlings (Dungeon #124)
Howling Dragon (Draconomicon)
Howler
Mivilorn (Monster Manual III)
Windblades (Monster Manual IV)
(2E) Darkweaver (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II)
(2E) Murska (Planes of Chaos)
(2E) Miska the Wolf-Spider (Rod of Seven Parts)
(1E) Mapmaker (Dragon #47)


3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.
They're in the Fiend Folio and Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II

[Tzardok]

Such as?..
No, I'm serious: Demogorgon is a god in Planescape, but Doresain - isn't.
So, how we can be sure?..


Demogorgon isn't a deity. He is a demon lord. Doresain, on the other hand, is a deity, at least since 3.5 (I know a write up of him in 3.0 that isn't a god).

Among the qualities every deity has in Planescape are the ability to grant spells to worshippers, having a portfolio (an aspect of reality they have power over that is of importance for their Material Plane worshippers) and the fact that they starve and die when they aren't worshipped.
The Lady lacks all those qualities (well, technically we don't know that she can't grant divine spells. We only know that she never ever does.) The Lady doesn't die of lack of belief, oh no. Instead, she kills everyone who dares to try to worship her. Furthermore, she doesn't have any discernible portfolio. Her only area of interest is, what, Sigil and keeping gods and similiarly powerful things out? How is that in any way usefull as a portfolio?
I'm sure if we think about it we can find other qualities of deityhood that don't apply to the Lady, but those should be enough.

[ShurikVch]

Demogorgon isn't a deity. He is a demon lord.
Monster Mythology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Mythology) disagreeing with you there...


Doresain, on the other hand, is a deity, at least since 3.5 (I know a write up of him in 3.0 that isn't a god).
Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (Dungeon #70)
It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers


Among the qualities every deity has in Planescape are the ability to grant spells to worshippers
As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...


having a portfolio (an aspect of reality they have power over that is of importance for their Material Plane worshippers)
Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one


and the fact that they starve and die when they aren't worshipped.
This part always was inconsistent:
Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
Orcus managed to be a deity with just one worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
Let alone the Mythos deities...

[Fable Wright]

Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (Dungeon #70)
It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers

I believe Libris Mortis had the full story of Doresain. Long story short, he ascended after that adventure. He's a demigod now.



As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...

There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. Her reach is not limited to Sigil.



Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one


This part always was inconsistent:
Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
Orcus managed to be a deity with just one worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
Let alone the Mythos deities...

First—canonically, per Libris Mortis, most of Doresain's worship gets stolen by Yeenoghu, IIRC, and not all ghouls worship him. Also, the prayers of undead are weaker, at least according to what I remember of afrocanon, than those of living souls. What with, you know. Their souls not entirely being in it.
Second—there are entities that are powerful in their own right that become gods. Demon princes ascend to godhood and are no less powerful for low numbers of worshippers. This may be the case of the Elemental deities and was definitely the case with Orcus. Or they might just get a tithe of all worship thanking the gods for the elements. It's unclear. This can cause a god with almost no worship to be stronger than deities with stronger worship, based on preexisting power.
Third—We don't know what Tharizdun is exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.

If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.

[ShurikVch]

There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. Her reach is not limited to Sigil.:smallconfused: Source?


But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.
Who Would Win?: Tharizdun vs Lady of Pain
(winner would fight vs Pandorym :smallamused:)

[Fable Wright]

:smallconfused: Source?

At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.

Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.

If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.

[afroakuma]

Who Would Win?: Tharizdun vs Lady of Pain

If for some odd reason she had to deal with him, the Lady of Pain would win that one.


(winner would fight vs Pandorym :smallamused:)

She'd win that one too.

Sorry I've been away, everyone. Will revisit questions I have missed, hopefully throughout the week. Life has been... well, I can't imagine life hasn't been a special experience for anyone this year, so I'll just thank everyone who's still been around and discussing stuff.

[ShurikVch]

At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.
Note: events of Die, Vecna Die! weren't accepted by certain part of Planescape fans: for them, it's Planescape version of Elseworlds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elseworlds)
But otherwise - OK...


Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.

If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.
Yes, Aoskar's story is rather interesting...

But I found one more (unexpected) point in favor of my interpretation:

The Lady of Pain is one of the primary figures of the Planescape campaign setting. She is an immensely powerful being who protects the city of Sigil from outside forces. Despite being at least as powerful as any known deity, she accepts no followers and is known to respond to those who try to worship her with extreme violence (although strangely, not people who worship her in secret. There is at least one person in Sigil who secretly is a petitioner of The Lady whom she hasn't destroyed). While most Cagers don't like to invoke her name lightly, the phrase "Her Serenity" is commonly used to refer to the Lady of Pain.

[afroakuma]

1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in Faction War. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.


How do souls interact with the Inner planes?

Unless there's a divine realm they belong in, they generally don't.


Let's say that an adventurer is killed on a demiplane or elemental plane, connected to the Ethereal but with no Astral conduit. What happens when they die?

Long road. Through the Ethereal to its nearest Astral contact point, then into the Astral to get where they belong. If there is no valid contact somehow, they get stuck (this is what happens around Athas). It should be noted that the elemental nodes of Athas do have conduits to the broader Elemental Planes, so if you die while in one of them, you should get out just fine.


Do they get (hypothetically) get sucked up through the Ordial Plane?

Definitely not.


Likewise, how do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?

We've done that one before; short answer is that ghosts resist the pull of the Astral by anchoring themselves to the Ethereal, and until they're willing to release that anchor, they can't pass on.


How common are pure classed Truenamers in Dwarven society, and specifically what would they contribute that the much more common, prestigious and generally far more powerful Clerics would not?

Not tremendously common, and as noted they would be involved in genealogy and history, recordkeeping and scholarship. Less community-oriented than dwarven clerics, more behind-the-scenes. Dwarves have long memories and would archive the truenames of enemies as secret weapons that can be wielded when absolutely necessary, since truenaming is, you know... mechanically abysmal.


Also, how do places with multiple sun gods (or multiple gods of other unitary things) that aren't affiliated with each other work? Is it like a bunch of people all messing with the thermostat? Does thy additively make the sun more sunlike? Are they merely sunlike themselves and not actually in control of the sun? Should some be assumed to be visiting gods of some other sun? Are they forced to regulate different aspects of the sun, even if they are understood by mortals as simply THE sun god? Or is it a combination of some of these or something else entirely?

In general, gods who share a portfolio cannot share territory; syncretism or redefinition can result, both unfortunate outcomes for a deity. Nobody wants to be the sun god who represents just the dusk and nothing else, but that tends to be how such things end up going - one god gets treated as a more specific, specialized, and lower-scope power than the other, with commensurate impact on worshiper base and, given a large enough timescale, personal nature and abilities.


I have a few questions:

1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?

No.


2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?

Functionally true neutral. Neither of them has a use for being measured in such terms.


I have some new questions.

1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?

Oh each plane has lots of unique local wildlife, but not entire exemplar races in the fashion of the main nine. I considered the idea, as Tzardok pointed out, but ultimately didn't care for it.


2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?

It can be difficult at times, but there are a few things that would set them apart - petitioners (with few select and specific exceptions) cannot learn, change, or grow, and often display a singlemindedness to their existence. They also have outsider traits, do not require sustenance or sleep, are planar committed, and possess very little ability compared to the living (being reset to functionally 1st level permanently). One of the most evident traits, however, is that petitioners, while generally aware of their identities, are a bit mentally checked out from them - you'd need to remind one to think about having had a name or a life.


3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.

Very very limited, there... I suppose the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II would be your best source.

[Edreyn]

Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for. Same about "in-between" planes inhabitants - I was asking about major known races, not about generic (for planes) creatures.

One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?

[enderlord99]

Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.

One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?

Outsiders.

[Edreyn]

Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.

One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?


Outsiders


Then who\what are Mechanus petitioners and how they look and act?

[Bohandas]

At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.

I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)

And being able to strike down anyone who speaks their name or holds their symbol is a bog standard divine power. Hand of Death doesn't even have a prerequisite.

EDIT:
And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.

[Tzardok]

I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse.

Nope. Vecna got in, wrecked **** just by being there, and when he was beat down the Lady did the reordering to repair the harm Vecna did.

[ShurikVch]

Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
Why?


1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in Faction War. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.
You see, Lady of Pain always was more plot device than actual character
Thus, her nature was left deliberately vague: there is just no actual story for her
Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."
When I read the theory: "Lady of Pain is six squirrels in a dress with Ring of Levitation", I decided to try my hand there too
Instead inventing something completely outlandish, I decided to attack one of rather well-known - but, nevertheless (AFAIK) not directly stated in a RAW form - presumptions: "Lady of Pain is not a deity"

Oh, she don't likes her followers?
Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
Ao!
Is he not a god now too? :smallamused:

My real point there is:
When we take some great mystery, about which almost nothing is known - every new bit of info is chipping from that mystery.
Let's compare:
"SCP-055 (http://www.scpwiki.com/scp-055) is not a sphere."
"Lady of Pain is not a deity."

Thus, unless some book states in no-nonsense terms "Lady of Pain is not ...", we can speculate unrestrained:
Squirrels?
Daughter of Poseidon?
Sure, why not?!..
"Prove she isn't!.." :smallwink:


She'd win that one too.
Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
(And Ao...)

[Edreyn]

My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is above deities.

[Efrate]

She has power rivalling that of Ao at least. Again power =/= godhood however.

[Tzardok]

Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
Why?

Another question that has been answered a few times. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII&p=24178202#post24178202)


Oh, she don't likes her followers?
Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
Ao!
Is he not a god now too? :smallamused:

Of course. Ao is no god. He is an overgod. That's a completely different thing. Overgods are entities that steward material worlds and control, for example, under what limitations and privileges gods operate in their specific sphere. Overgods do not need or want worship, and unless there is a major ****-up, you'll never even notice that they do their job. We know the names of two overgods: Ao and the High Lord of Krynn. We have no idea how many others are there.



Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
(And Ao...)

Elder Evils massively overstates the threat range of everything in it. Pandorym is the most powerful thing in there, and it will at best kill a few gods and do a lot of damage to the world of the sphere it is in before it is beaten down by something bigger and badder. I mean, Afro said just eight posts over your own that the Lady would destroy it if they fought.


My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is above deities.

My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.

[ShurikVch]

Elder Evils massively overstates the threat range of everything in it. Pandorym is the most powerful thing in there, and it will at best kill a few gods and do a lot of damage to the world of the sphere it is in before it is beaten down by something bigger and badder. I mean, Afro said just eight posts over your own that the Lady would destroy it if they fought.

Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for Gate spell)
Divinity nullification
All which touch it is destroyed
Try again! :smalltongue:


Another question that has been answered a few times. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII&p=24178202#post24178202)
It's all answers without the answer
I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
(Aside from "DVD is non-canon")

[Tzardok]

Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for Gate spell)
Divinity nullification
All which touch it is destroyed
Try again! :smalltongue:


Yes, thank you for telling us how Elder Evil overstates things (besides the divinity nullification, not even Elder Evil mentions it). As I said, as soon as it tries to pick a fight with one of the real baddies like the Lady, Tharizdun or, god forbid, a sleeping Draeden, it is a smear on the wall. Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).


It's all answers without the answer
I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
(Aside from "DVD is non-canon")

Here, let me quote the specific part of the linked post:


The Lady can't show him the door because he got in with enough strength to push back against as much force as she's able to personally exert without escalating the conflict to a level that would instantly sunder the multiverse. If she had elected to step it up, Vecna would be dust before he could blink.

I am not sure what else you want.

[Bohandas]

Nope. Vecna got in, wrecked **** just by being there, and when he was beat down the Lady did the reordering to repair the harm Vecna did.

"Even with Vecna’s removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna’s time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased." -Die Vecna Die pg151

[ShurikVch]

Of course. Ao is no god. He is an overgod. That's a completely different thing. Overgods are entities that steward material worlds and control, for example, under what limitations and privileges gods operate in their specific sphere. Overgods do not need or want worship, and unless there is a major ****-up, you'll never even notice that they do their job. We know the names of two overgods: Ao and the High Lord of Krynn. We have no idea how many others are there.
Excuse me, but overgod is still a god
Divine Ranks (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank21Plus):

Rank 21+
These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.



Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).
:smallconfused:
"Pandorym's stats"?
Gee, what stats?
Let me remind you: three biggest Elder Evils in the book - Atropus, Leviathan, and Pandorym - are have no listed stats! :smallbiggrin:
(Because, if they're, actually, appeared - then you're already lost)
If by the "Pandorym's stats" you meant "Mind Shard of Pandorym" - then let me enlighten you: it's not the whole power of Pandorym; actually, it part is so infinitesimal to the "big whole" - Pandorym can have unlimited amount of Shards without becoming weaker in any notable manner

The "divinity nullification", while not stated directly, is strongly implied: Pandorym agreed to kill the gods.
And not just one or two - all the gods without exception.
To try it without having any means to negate their divinity is as stupid as hunting bears while being unable to put a bear down
And, judging by the fact gods were, actually, afraid - threat was completely real


Here, let me quote the specific part of the linked post:

I am not sure what else you want.
Just as I said: answer without explanation - why killing the strongest "normal" god of the Multiverse (i. e. "strongest, but still no overgod") didn't caused Multiverse to fall apart?

[Bohandas]

My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.

I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish. He kidnapped the gods and held them in his basement, and perhaps more importantly he's essentially a representation of Gygax' role as the first DM.


Third—We don't know what Tharizdun is exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.

If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.

IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.

Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rate

[afroakuma]

Then who\what are Mechanus petitioners and how they look and act?

Depends on a number of things - the petitioners of any given divine realm will look an act as determined by that deity, and even petitioners on particular cogs or wheels may take on different forms. Some may eventually join with the energy pool of the modrons; others may become coggles or moignos and take their place in the regulation of the plane itself.


I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)

Vecna damaged the structure of the multiverse by being in Sigil for as long as he was, but he didn't ultimately get to reorder it.


And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.

One day one of the Lady's dabus servants put on the robes of a priest of Aoskar. That was the last straw. His temple was shattered and his corpse was found floating in the Astral Plane, riddled with blades and with an expression of deepest horror etched into his face.


Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."

You've demonstrated clear disinterest in counterpoints, so this will be the end of my interaction with you on the topic. The answer is understood; if you don't actually want said answer, then I can't help you.


Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;

Pandorym is identified as being able to eradicate all the worlds of the Material Plane. Eradication of the multiverse itself, or even a single plane, is not attributed to it. Given the farcical ease with which it was stopped from doing so in the first place, one does not have serious grounds for suggesting it could reasonably attempt to total a plane without sufficient intervention to prevent said outcome. Then again, that is of course the point - you have made a decision about what you want to represent as "the most powerful thing in the multiverse," and about what you want dethroned from said position. It's not my place to speak for your campaign, of course, but speaking to the information that others have come here to seek, I do not endorse your opinion.

Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.


My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse

She is not that.


I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish.

Heh, definitely not. Zagyg managed to catch a few gods in his Godtrap, but there are many, many things in the multiverse that outclass him. He's clever, not powerful.


IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.

I'd have to recheck, but I was pretty sure he'd been listed as Intermediate.


Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rate

He's also got his own cults that more openly serve him rather than some disguise or misdirect.

[ShurikVch]

Pandorym is identified as being able to eradicate all the worlds of the Material Plane. Eradication of the multiverse itself, or even a single plane, is not attributed to it.
And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...


Given the farcical ease with which it was stopped from doing so in the first place, one does not have serious grounds for suggesting it could reasonably attempt to total a plane without sufficient intervention to prevent said outcome.
What "farcical ease"? :smallconfused:
If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!


Then again, that is of course the point - you have made a decision about what you want to represent as "the most powerful thing in the multiverse
And you - didn't?
Pot.
Kettle.


Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.
I don't expecting your answer this time, but just couldn't pass such dubious reasoning without reply. Good night.

[Fable Wright]

And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...

Sounds like Godsmen propaganda tbh. The Outlands is the lynchpin, and Sigil a representative of that. There's no indication that Pandorym is interested in anything beyond a single crystal sphere and/or the gods therein, much less the entire material plane. There's no indication that if you kill the gods anything bad happens to the multiverse as a whole, or that removing the prime material plane won't cause a new one to be made from the intersection of the Astral and Ethereal.



What "farcical ease"? :smallconfused:
If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!

In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book, the timeline of Faerun include Pandorym awake and chewing up the countryside for four years (1370-1374) without... really killing any gods or destroying the multiverse as it stands? And then he's put back to sleep by a couple of high level adventurers.

From a deific perspective, that's... really not all that impressive?



And you - didn't?
Pot.
Kettle.

I mean, by posing the question in this particular thread, you tacitly acknowledge that you are asking for afroakuma's perspective and that his answers are definitive. This is afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread of 8 years running.

[afroakuma]

No point dwelling on it. Let's move on. I didn't come back for this :smalltongue:

Floor's open for questions, as usual.

[Fable Wright]

Well, one thing did pop up recently.

In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should normally be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?

[Caelestion]

In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book...

That came out right at the end of 3.5's run and in fact doesn't mention any of the changes to Toril for Fourth Edition except in the most general terms.

[afroakuma]

Well, one thing did pop up recently.

In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should normally be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?

It may be a border area of Ooze - the Muckmire, the Slag Marshes, and the Oasis of Filth all would have regions that are "silt"-esque, being the borders to Earth, Minerals, and Dust respectively.

[Bohandas]

Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?

[enderlord99]

Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?

Interior, the former, it's mostly enclosed

[Fable Wright]

It may be a border area of Ooze - the Muckmire, the Slag Marshes, and the Oasis of Filth all would have regions that are "silt"-esque, being the borders to Earth, Minerals, and Dust respectively.

Ah. To clarify, on Athas, the silt is... not earth-silt.


The silt itself is a grayish powder, like very fine and dry dust. It runs through the fingers like water, leaving not a trace on one's hands. The slightest trace of moisture causes it to stick and clump; it can cake the eyes, nose, and throat in seconds. Breathing the airborne silt slowly lines the lungs with powder and chokes the life from even a Giant.

Like water, silt has a devilish ability to find its way into everything. A traveler walking along the borders of the Sea of Silt on a windy day finds boots, packs, and even pockets filling with gray dust. Most of the time it is merely annoying-but contamination of a canteen or food supplies is a sore blow to the wayfarer on short rations.

Silt is heavier than air, but far lighter than water. Stories tell of inventors who tried to copy the hulled, wheelless vehicles the ancients used to travel through water. The silt is so light, and of so little substance, that even the most carefully built boat sank through the dust to rest on the bottom. Others tried to strap great baskets to their feet, hoping that these could support their weight over the silt. They were no more successful.

Water sinks rapidly through the silt. A gallon of water thrown into shallow silt leaves a foot-wide muddy shaft through the dust down to the rock below. This rapidly fills over and collapses, but some Sages observing this effect have speculated that a sufficient amount of water, such as one good rain, could pound the entire Sea into a single mud flat. Of course, the terrible heat of the sun would soon dry the mud back into silt.

It honestly seems pretty close to regions of elemental dust, but on Athas, it... doesn't appear that the paraelemental plane of ooze is known or accessible.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Is there a canonical organization in Spelljammer that's devoted to exploring the various known crystal spheres and seeking out new ones, basically being to Prime worlds what the Planewalker's Guild and Planar Cartographic Society are to the planes?

Not necessarily in a full-on "Sphere Trek: Where no demihuman has gone before!" sort of way, but just an ideal one to use for a plot hook along the lines of "[Organization] has discovered a new [crystal sphere/Prime world/celestial body/phlogiston phenomenon/etc.] N days' travel from here and they'd like you to check it out"?

[Edreyn]

I don't really think that Lady is actually the maker of the Multiverse, but as far as ideas go, this one isn't worse then squirrels. Nothing is worse then squirrels.
Somewhat off topic, are there more characters, in any book or game that have a nature unknown even to author? Tom Bombadil, of course, but anyone else?

[Khedrac]

Somewhat off topic, are there more characters, in any book or game that have a nature unknown even to author? Tom Bombadil, of course, but anyone else?

There are a couple of types of answer to this (at least).

The first is when the author hasn't decided on an answer at the time of writing, an example is probably be the prisoner of Elysium. Various suggestions and false versions have been printed, but it is unlikely that anyone knows because I would guess that the original author wanted it to be a mystery and so never decided on an actual entity. If Tolkein did not know what Tom Bombadil was (I am not aware of anything saying that Tolkein hadn't decided what Tom was, but I have not read Christopher's series exploring his dad's work) then he fall into this category

The second is in multiple-author environments. Some novel settings have other people writing additional stories and they can use characters where the primary author is still keeping the true nature of the character secret. Usually though they avoid these characters (because of the probalmes on getting things wrong). However this is a lot more common in RPG settings where there is a primary authority and a load of other authors who are given notes on what they can and cannot have the characters do. These can be glaringly obvious to people who know the setting better than the author of a specific module/article that (mis)uses a character.

Technically cases where the author decides a character is more than originally written are an example, but I think they are not a subset of option 1, but not really an example at all as the author knew at the time of writing, but changed their mind later.

[aj77]

I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world. The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea. How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity? Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?

[Efrate]

Demigods are rank 1 to 5, and intermediate dieties are rank 11 to 15, so as few as 3 or as many as 11 in a strictly by the numbers sense. I kind of like the idea of 3 rank 5s, good evil and neutral, but since SDA and class levels are more a determination of power thank raw rank, just use what you see fit.

[Tzardok]

I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world. The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea. How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity? Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?

Your idea reminds of a bunch of different phenomena on the planes.

The Undying Court are the ancestors of the elves of Aerinal on the world of Eberron, returned to the world of the living as deathless, a positve energy based counterpart of the negative energy based undead. They advise the rulers of Aerinal and are worshipped by their people. As a collective, they are roughly equivalent to a demigod.

The Moongods are eldritch wildspace entities associated with the stars, omens and catastrophy. They are most well known among the mortals for creating the aberrations called mooncalves as their agents, but some astrologists obsessed with omens revere them. Their collective power, again, equals a demigod.

The Xammux is a deity described in the Book of Vile Darkness. The Xammux is not a single entity, but a conglomerat of six other gods whose identities have been lost to the collective. The Xammux' portfolio includes cold logic divorced of any kind of morals and forbidden experiments. Sadly, the BoVD doesn't give information about it's divine rank, or how powerful the individual pieces were.

Angharradh is the queen of the elven deities, wife to their creator Corellon Laretian. She's a triune deity, at once a single being and the fusion of three lesser ones. She herself is counted as a greater deity, while her components are the intermediate goddesses Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil and Sehanine Moonbow.

All in all I can say that your idea has merit, but you can't expect a rocksolid formula of "6 demigods = 1 lesser god" or something like that.

[Edreyn]

I am not sure what exactly you have in mind, but if you mean that demigods actually merge into one entity, with single mind, forfeiting all their personality, then yes, it can work. If they work as collective, and everyone stays with his mind, then it isn't.

The closest example I can think of is from sci-fi and not fantasy. In Starcraft series, when the old Overmind was killed by Protoss, surviving cerebrates physically and literally merged into a new one. Yes, they aren't deities, but they literally control all their subjects every aspect, so I think the example can fit here.

[tyckspoon]

I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world. The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea. How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity? Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?

The idea of pooling power to achieve something greater than any individual caster could is pretty common and occurs in various ways throughout existing rules - see things like Circle Magic, the Metaconcert psionic power, Co-operative Spellcasting feat, Epic Spells that use ritual participants, or the pool of spellcasting power managed by the Arcane Order (of the eponymous Prestige Class.) It's not a big stretch to say that gods of magic could work the same way. The question would be how you determine what the will or desires of this 'god' would be - does it actually have separate desires from the mages that make up its power supply? Is there no real separate entity, and the individual contributing demigod-mages are simply able to perform much greater feats than they should by tapping into it? If so, how is that access regulated? What kind of compacts, traditions, or accords control how they can use that power?

[afroakuma]

Is there a canonical organization in Spelljammer that's devoted to exploring the various known crystal spheres and seeking out new ones, basically being to Prime worlds what the Planewalker's Guild and Planar Cartographic Society are to the planes?

Not necessarily in a full-on "Sphere Trek: Where no demihuman has gone before!" sort of way, but just an ideal one to use for a plot hook along the lines of "[Organization] has discovered a new [crystal sphere/Prime world/celestial body/phlogiston phenomenon/etc.] N days' travel from here and they'd like you to check it out"?

Hm. The Seekers would be the closest thing; they're more dedicated to seeking out knowledge and answers to mysteries in a broader sense, but certainly discovering new or uncharted planets would be within their idiom. They're also known as the Order of the Orb and Sword.


I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world. The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea. How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity? Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?

It's hard to give a particular figure, since it's not a simple matter of addition. I would say you'd likely want a goodly number of them, if they're demigods. Personally I wouldn't want to go lower than 12, and I'd probably prefer a higher number, but that's just me.

[Tzardok]

Say, Afro, what do you think about my version of the su'luk two pages back (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24749335&postcount=116)? Is that roughly how you imagined it when answering back then, or do you think something should be changed?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hm. The Seekers would be the closest thing; they're more dedicated to seeking out knowledge and answers to mysteries in a broader sense, but certainly discovering new or uncharted planets would be within their idiom. They're also known as the Order of the Orb and Sword.

Good call, thanks, I'd completely forgotten about them.


I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world. The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea. How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity? Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?

It's hard to give a particular figure, since it's not a simple matter of addition. I would say you'd likely want a goodly number of them, if they're demigods. Personally I wouldn't want to go lower than 12, and I'd probably prefer a higher number, but that's just me.

I think 64 would be a good number for that, for two reasons:

1) Out-of-game, in 3e there are many level-related things that double in power every increment or two (e.g. Versatile Spellcaster turning 2 level X slots into 1 level X+1 slot, 2 creatures of CR X having a CR of level X+2, and so on). Thus, one might assume (though of course the relationship between gods isn't nearly so clear-cut) that 1 rank 6 deity is "worth" 2 rank 5 deities, 1 rank 7 deity is worth 4 rank 5 deities, etc., and so the minimum ratio of demigods to intermediate deities would be 1 intermediate deity of rank 11 being equivalent to 64 demigods of rank 5.

2) In-game, there are 8 schools of magic, so having 82=64 demigods in the collective and having 8 be a sacred number for them that gets used in a lot of imagery and scripture and so forth would be nicely thematic. Especially if the demigods ascended one by one over the centuries and you can have a somewhat Avatar-like setup where the god collective cycles through the different schools to pick powerful specialists in each school to join it, to ensure that it doesn't happen to skew towards one facet of magic because e.g. the last century saw a bunch of powerful conjurers and no powerful diviners so the collective is conjurer-heavy now.

[afroakuma]

Say, Afro, what do you think about my version of the su'luk two pages back (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24749335&postcount=116)? Is that roughly how you imagined it when answering back then, or do you think something should be changed?

Seems good! Ran it by some more balance-familiar amigos and they agreed.

Dice: I like your rationale on that one. I was also loosely braining the 8 schools of magic.

[aj77]

Thanks for all the feedback.
I also like 8 as a sacred number for the collective; I had chosen an 8 pointed star as the god's holy symbol, representing the balance of the 8 non neutral alignments. One of my concepts was that the demigods were of all various alignments, with the collective averaging out to TN. Having it also refer to the schools of magic is a great plus.

[Bartmanhomer]

Is there a depression deity? A deity who's always sad and depressed all the time. :confused:

[redking]

Afroakuma - where can I find a compiled list of your 3.5e crunch homebrew with links?

[aj77]

Is there a depression deity? A deity who's always sad and depressed all the time. :confused:
Shar isn't really depressed all the time, but is a deity of loss and enjoys nurturing pain, grief, and sadness.

[Bohandas]

Wny is Sigil seemingly so uniquiely important, given the fact that there are other planar trade/transport hubs, and sigil's portals seem to be often inconvenient to use and are generally too small to get a wagon through?

[Tzardok]

Wny is Sigil seemingly so uniquiely important, given the fact that there are other planar trade/transport hubs, and sigil's portals seem to be often inconvenient to use and are generally too small to get a wagon through?

Sigil is, just off the top of my head,

the biggest metropolis in the planes besides Dis;
directly reachable from everywhere without needing magic assistance if you know what you are doing;
assured neutrality by the biggest stick around;
granted importance through Unity of Rings and Center of All.

[Bohandas]

the biggest metropolis in the planes besides Dis;

How is that possible!? It only has 250000 inhabitants!

[Tzardok]

How is that possible!? It only has 250000 inhabitants!

Science fiction fantasy writers having no sense of scale. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) :smallamused:

[Bohandas]

But it's not just small-considering-that-it-services-an-infinite-multiverse, it's just a small city period. Even thousands of years ago there were cities in the real world that were bigger

[Bohandas]

And how come we never hear of suburbs or metroplexes or sister cities of Sigil? If it's portal network were at all reliable, we would expect it to have a sprawling network of Fort Worths, East Vegases, and Greater Londons

[afroakuma]

Is there a depression deity? A deity who's always sad and depressed all the time. :confused:

Nephthys.


Afroakuma - where can I find a compiled list of your 3.5e crunch homebrew with links?

I don't think there is one, anymore. Anything in particular you were looking for? A lot of the really old stuff is pretty crap...


Wny is Sigil seemingly so uniquiely important, given the fact that there are other planar trade/transport hubs, and sigil's portals seem to be often inconvenient to use and are generally too small to get a wagon through?

It's neutral ground the gods can't get to, a hub for moving between countless worlds and planes, and exists at the center of the Outer Planes, making it an excellent place for those looking to shape reality with their beliefs to congregate and argue their case - which they do. You're thinking of Sigil from the standpoint of "why is it impressive as a city," which is not the reason people care about it - even if it were barren ground, it would be important. The fact that it's been urbanized only adds to its relevance.


the biggest metropolis in the planes besides Dis

Zelatar.


And how come we never hear of suburbs or metroplexes or sister cities of Sigil? If it's portal network were at all reliable, we would expect it to have a sprawling network of Fort Worths, East Vegases, and Greater Londons

Its portal network is a thing of value; people pay to learn the whereabouts and methods of portals, and while many are very consistent, no portal is 100% guaranteed forever - the Lady can create them, change them or close them as she wills. Then of course there's the other crucial fact that many of its destinations are on planes of belief, where distance and location are in part a function of the traveler themselves.

[Babale]

How much is know about the illithid prophecy of a being called The Adversary?

[afroakuma]

How much is know about the illithid prophecy of a being called The Adversary?

Well, we certainly know what it is - the legend says that one day a ceremorphosis will go wrong, resulting in a being with the body and powers of an illithid, but the mind and soul of the host body. There's been at least one case of something similar happening, although the circumstances were unique - the ulitharid Redatsuul recklessly overused psionic tattoos and accidentally created a circuit that inverted the mental control in his body and allowed the human host mind to regain control. The Adversary would be a slightly different scenario in that the illithid mind would not exist at all, but the nature of their fear is basically the same - something that can move among them undetected and work to destroy them using their own powers.

[aj77]

I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids). Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?
Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?

[Tzardok]

I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids). Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?
Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?

Well, Lords of Madness claims that normally the tadpoles are very discerning about the type of host they can survive in. Only mamalian humanoids of a certain size are valid hosts; given examples are humans, elves, githzerai, githyanki, orks, gnolls, grimlocks and Medium-sized goblionids. On the other hand, illithids are experimenting all the time with implanting tadpoles into other things. Most of the time tadpole and host die, but sometimes it works. Usually, the half-illithid template is used for those "freaks". Urophion and Uchuulon are the only examples I know of that are reliably reproducable. Besides those I only know of the brainstealer dragons, whose exact origin is not quite clear, but most likely, well... tadpole + dragon.

Question of my own: Urbanus and Zarus from Races of Destiny, the deities of the raptorans from Races of the Wild and the pantheon of the goliaths from Races of Stone do not have any homeplanes given. Does anybody have ideas or speculations where those gods have their divine realms?

[zfs]

I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids). Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?


There certainly are. An illithid tadpole implanted into a Beholder makes a Mindwitness. 2e has the Mozgriken, which are Svirfneblin with a tadpole, but that required some sort of dark ritual because otherwise attempting ceremorphosis with a gnome kills both the gnome and the tadpole. DragMag has the Tzakandi, which are made from lizardfolk.

Brainstealer dragons are also a Dragon Mag thing. They occasionally will rule illithid settlements that don't have an Elder Brain.


Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?

Standard targets for normal ceremorphosis (i.e. will create a standard Illithid, not a special Ceremorph like the Urophion) are humans, elves, gith, gnolls, orcs, and some goblinoids. Dwarves and halflings are basically always a no-no.

[Babale]

Well, we certainly know what it is - the legend says that one day a ceremorphosis will go wrong, resulting in a being with the body and powers of an illithid, but the mind and soul of the host body. There's been at least one case of something similar happening, although the circumstances were unique - the ulitharid Redatsuul recklessly overused psionic tattoos and accidentally created a circuit that inverted the mental control in his body and allowed the human host mind to regain control. The Adversary would be a slightly different scenario in that the illithid mind would not exist at all, but the nature of their fear is basically the same - something that can move among them undetected and work to destroy them using their own powers.
Is there any clue as to what the source of this creature would be? Is it a failure on the tadpoles part? A particularly strong willed individual? Divine favor? Or just random chance?

[Efrate]

Were dwarves ever officially small in older editions? Seems a medium humamoid is the standard. Plus the 97% human society means something that fits in is better than something that stands out for infiltration maybe?

[Mr Adventurer]

Well, we certainly know what it is - the legend says that one day a ceremorphosis will go wrong, resulting in a being with the body and powers of an illithid, but the mind and soul of the host body. There's been at least one case of something similar happening, although the circumstances were unique - the ulitharid Redatsuul recklessly overused psionic tattoos and accidentally created a circuit that inverted the mental control in his body and allowed the human host mind to regain control. The Adversary would be a slightly different scenario in that the illithid mind would not exist at all, but the nature of their fear is basically the same - something that can move among them undetected and work to destroy them using their own powers.

Does anyone know the source of this Redatsuul stuff? Because it doesn't make sense to me: Illithid don't have "mental control" of their bodies nor "hosts" once ceremorphosis is complete: the tadpole eats and replaces the brain. The original creature is dead. There might be some memory transfer but not enough to work with to reconstitute the original creature's mind as this Redatsuul thing suggests.

The actual legend of the Adversary involves a unique alchemical potion taken before ceremorphosis, which at least sounds like it could maybe do something like lobotomising the tadpole so that it doesn't eat your brain while leaving its autonomic functions intact so that your body still transforms.

[Tzardok]

I just googled it. Redatsuul hails from an adventure in the Dungeon Magazine #81. Maybe a case of Early Installment Weirdness.

[Cieyrin]

Were dwarves ever officially small in older editions? Seems a medium humamoid is the standard. Plus the 97% human society means something that fits in is better than something that stands out for infiltration maybe?

Faerun's Wild Dwarves and Krynn's Gully Dwarves are Small but those specific subraces are the exceptions to that, in general, dwarves are Medium. I think there's another Faerun dwarf subrace that's also Small but I'd have to go looking.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Does anyone know the source of this Redatsuul stuff? Because it doesn't make sense to me: Illithid don't have "mental control" of their bodies nor "hosts" once ceremorphosis is complete: the tadpole eats and replaces the brain. The original creature is dead. There might be some memory transfer but not enough to work with to reconstitute the original creature's mind as this Redatsuul thing suggests.

The Redatsuul description doesn't actually say outright that the original host's mind survived, there's a bit of vagueness in the explanation. The specific verbiage in the sidebar is thus:


Psionic seals are analogous to psionic tattoos in form and receptacles in purpose. The psionic discipline Imprint Psionic Circuitry allows illithids to brand objects with psionic seals designed to contain psionic power. It is possible to brand a living being with a psionic seal, allowing the individual so marked to call upon the power stored within the seal.

The ulitharid Redatsuul became enamored of psionic seals and had several placed upon his person. The seals' circuitry accidentally crossed, however. The seals not only shorted out but revived the human personality that the ulitharid supposedly obliterated when he underwent ceremorphosis. (See The Illithiad for details.)

Note that if Shannotsuul suffers damage in combat exceeding half of her hit points or is reduced to below half her normal PSP total, there is a 5% chance that the psionic seals on her are damaged enough to cease functioning and restore the Redatsuul personality, eliminating all vestiges of the human wizard Shannon Canteel. If reduced to one fourth of her hit points or reduced to 0 PSPs, the chance increases to 10%.

...and wherever the adventure background talks about Shannon Canteel, it phrases things in terms of an external personality taking over Redatsuul rather than a former mind just hanging around:

It was constructed hundreds of years ago by Shannotsuul, an ulitharid whose personality was attacked by a human mind.

The personality that has surfaced and dominated the ulitharid mind is Shannon Canteel, a former human wizard and adventurer.

[T]he Shannon personality remains in charge and works towards the downfall of illithids with single-minded determination. To extend her life beyond the normal ulitharid span and to keep the ulitharid's personality at bay, Shannotsuul regularly ingests a special fluid produced by fungal growths mixed with neural tissue from strange subterranean creatures.

Attempts by Shannon to return to her former human state have met with failure--the Redatsuul personality is too intimately entwined with Shannon's to allow such change.

Given that the human personality only exists and is in control while the item is intact and has a very one-dimensional personality, much like an intelligent item taking control of a host to pursue its special purpose, there's a pretty strong implication that "Shannon Canteel" in this case is more of a false overlay on Redatsuul's mind (in a Tyler-Durden-from-Fight-Club kind of way) than an actual mind that survived ceremorphosis.


I think there's another Faerun dwarf subrace that's also Small but I'd have to go looking.

That would be the Arctic dwarf (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Arctic_dwarf), which tops out at 3 foot 4.

[Mr Adventurer]

The Redatsuul description doesn't actually say outright that the original host's mind survived, there's a bit of vagueness in the explanation. The specific verbiage in the sidebar is thus:



...and wherever the adventure background talks about Shannon Canteel, it phrases things in terms of an external personality taking over Redatsuul rather than a former mind just hanging around:





Given that the human personality only exists and is in control while the item is intact and has a very one-dimensional personality, much like an intelligent item taking control of a host to pursue its special purpose, there's a pretty strong implication that "Shannon Canteel" in this case is more of a false overlay on Redatsuul's mind (in a Tyler-Durden-from-Fight-Club kind of way) than an actual mind that survived ceremorphosis.

Fantastic, thank you. That's slightly "better", for me at least. Interesting there's a similar link to a unique alchemical potion as in The Adversary - I wonder if that's intentional.

[Bohandas]

Is there any clue as to what the source of this creature would be? Is it a failure on the tadpoles part? A particularly strong willed individual? Divine favor? Or just random chance?

The actual legend of the Adversary involves a unique alchemical potion taken before ceremorphosis, which at least sounds like it could maybe do something like lobotomising the tadpole so that it doesn't eat your brain while leaving its autonomic functions intact so that your body still transforms.

I woukd think the most plausible way to achieve the effect would be to mind switch with the tadpole as it is inserted.

[afroakuma]

I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids). Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?
Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?

I think this was sufficiently addressed by others. Illithids keep experimenting, of course, and it's possible that one-off mutants can be produced with even "incompatible" hosts using a variety of dark and alien sciences to stabilize the attempt, but that's what the half-illithid template is for.


Question of my own: Urbanus and Zarus from Races of Destiny, the deities of the raptorans from Races of the Wild and the pantheon of the goliaths from Races of Stone do not have any homeplanes given. Does anybody have ideas or speculations where those gods have their divine realms?

I would place Urbanus on Bytopia, Zarus on Acheron. For the raptoran deities, Tuilviel Glithien is most likely ensconced on Karasuthra, third layer of the Beastlands; Duthila would fit in on Shurrock, second layer of Bytopia; Kithin is a bit hard to place, but a snowy mountain of Arborea may be fitting; Lliendil may fit on Ysgard or Limbo, or on the Elemental Plane of Air; Nilthina is most likely somewhere on Brux, second layer of the Beastlands; Ventila would fit Elysium well. For the goliath deities, Kavaki is most likely situated on the Outlands; Kuliak on Pandemonium; Manethak on the Beastlands; Naki-Uthai on Ysgard; Theleya on Elysium; Vanua on Gehenna, Limbo, or Ysgard.


Is there any clue as to what the source of this creature would be? Is it a failure on the tadpoles part? A particularly strong willed individual? Divine favor? Or just random chance?

In the documented instance that likely precipitated the legend, Strom Wakeman used a nonmagical herbal mixture called laethal to drug himself prior to ceremorphosis, which impeded the transformation.


Were dwarves ever officially small in older editions? Seems a medium humamoid is the standard. Plus the 97% human society means something that fits in is better than something that stands out for infiltration maybe?

Nope. Dwarves are shorter than humans on average, but not "small" in the way halflings and gnomes are. Some subraces are, of course.


Given that the human personality only exists and is in control while the item is intact and has a very one-dimensional personality, much like an intelligent item taking control of a host to pursue its special purpose, there's a pretty strong implication that "Shannon Canteel" in this case is more of a false overlay on Redatsuul's mind (in a Tyler-Durden-from-Fight-Club kind of way) than an actual mind that survived ceremorphosis.

I'd dispute that for a few reasons - Shannotsuul is an accomplished arcane caster, for instance, which is rather like if Tyler Durden spoke fluent Urdu. Also, The Illithiad tells us that the tadpole "subsumes the creature's personality" (p.12), which suggests that it's in there somewhere, possibly providing the psionic fuel for the tadpole's growth and development. I do believe the writer's intent was to confirm that Shannon Canteel was the host body and is currently the dominant personality, which suggests some interesting things about illithid cognition, development, and psychology... but since we're not going to see anything authoritative on this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'd dispute that for a few reasons - Shannotsuul is an accomplished arcane caster, for instance, which is rather like if Tyler Durden spoke fluent Urdu. Also, The Illithiad tells us that the tadpole "subsumes the creature's personality" (p.12), which suggests that it's in there somewhere, possibly providing the psionic fuel for the tadpole's growth and development. I do believe the writer's intent was to confirm that Shannon Canteel was the host body and is currently the dominant personality, which suggests some interesting things about illithid cognition, development, and psychology... but since we're not going to see anything authoritative on this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

I do agree that Shannotsuul's personality is based on the remnants of the actual Shannon Canteel, I just got the strong impression from the text that it was merely a reconstruction, something like a Nybor's psychic imprint and not Shannon's actual mind. The Tyler Durden comparison was more in reference to the part where Shannon was taking steps to keep Redatsuul suppressed so she could keep acting freely, not suggesting that her personality appeared out of nowhere.

---

A few Dark Sun questions:

1) There are references in a few sources to ancient gods of Athas (a temple to unknown gods in Undertyr in The Verdant Passage, pictures of godlike figures on Kalak's ziggurat on the box set map, and a few others I forget offhand). This of course contradicts the original concept of Athas having never had gods at all. Are there any other references that imply one way or another whether Athas had once had actual gods which then died/were killed/disappeared/etc. or if it's more an Eberron situation where no one has any evidence of gods ever existing but early priests got divine power somehow so people worship them anyway?

2) I know of the fanon Crimson Sphere writeup of Athas's crystal sphere and its celestial bodies, but is there any canon information squirreled away somewhere regarding the appearance/properties of Athas's moons or any other planets in the system?

3) How do Athas's elemental sorta-kinda-planes function with respect to the greater Elemental Planes of the Wheel? You've described them before as "elemental nodes" with conduits to the greater planes, but does that mean they're sort of physical extensions of those planes and if an Athasian planar traveler just walks/swims/flies long enough they could leave their sphere, or there's a big ol' vortex or gate or something somewhere in the Athasian planes that will take a traveler out of the sphere and otherwise they're basically closed off like demiplanes, or something else?
3a) Is travel possible both into and out of Athas that way, or just one way, or it's possible both ways but much easier in than out, or...?
3b) How much of this is known to the Sorcerer-Kings and other knowledgeable individuals?

[Tzardok]

I would place Urbanus on Bytopia, Zarus on Acheron. For the raptoran deities, Tuilviel Glithien is most likely ensconced on Karasuthra, third layer of the Beastlands; Duthila would fit in on Shurrock, second layer of Bytopia; Kithin is a bit hard to place, but a snowy mountain of Arborea may be fitting; Lliendil may fit on Ysgard or Limbo, or on the Elemental Plane of Air; Nilthina is most likely somewhere on Brux, second layer of the Beastlands; Ventila would fit Elysium well. For the goliath deities, Kavaki is most likely situated on the Outlands; Kuliak on Pandemonium; Manethak on the Beastlands; Naki-Uthai on Ysgard; Theleya on Elysium; Vanua on Gehenna, Limbo, or Ysgard.

Thank you for your thoughts. :smallsmile:
The only one I would outright disagree with is Zarus; he sounds more like a Baator guy to me, but everything else is really helpful.
Vanua as a god of avalanches sounds outright fun in Gehenna; maybe he should have a mobile divine realm, "The Great Rock-Slide", moving downwards Chamada.
Lliendil is really a difficult guy, isn't he? Bah, Air is good enough for him. His realm shall be known as "The Changing Sky".
Regarding Kithin, wasn't one of the Seven Heavens a snowy place? Venya, I think... Or do we have to go the cordant planes? K'un-Lun is supposed to be snowy mountains and fits him, doesn't it?


I'd dispute that for a few reasons - Shannotsuul is an accomplished arcane caster, for instance, which is rather like if Tyler Durden spoke fluent Urdu. Also, The Illithiad tells us that the tadpole "subsumes the creature's personality" (p.12), which suggests that it's in there somewhere, possibly providing the psionic fuel for the tadpole's growth and development. I do believe the writer's intent was to confirm that Shannon Canteel was the host body and is currently the dominant personality, which suggests some interesting things about illithid cognition, development, and psychology... but since we're not going to see anything authoritative on this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

If that were true, what implications would it have for the host's soul? With the "normal" understanding of ceremorphosis, the soul goes to its final reward when the host "dies", for lack of better term. Would that happen here too, leaving the consciousness as an imprint, or would the soul remain, imprisoned in the mindflayer?

[afroakuma]

1) There are references in a few sources to ancient gods of Athas (a temple to unknown gods in Undertyr in The Verdant Passage, pictures of godlike figures on Kalak's ziggurat on the box set map, and a few others I forget offhand). This of course contradicts the original concept of Athas having never had gods at all. Are there any other references that imply one way or another whether Athas had once had actual gods which then died/were killed/disappeared/etc. or if it's more an Eberron situation where no one has any evidence of gods ever existing but early priests got divine power somehow so people worship them anyway?

The second Monstrous Compendium - which is admittedly a poor source, given that it keeps referring to the Astral and Ethereal Planes, among other things, but Revised Dark Sun is problematic like that - brings us the raaig, undead wardens of places sacred to lost and forgotten gods; the Revised Campaign Setting also gives us the ruined site known as Godshold, which was supposedly the temple of a whole pantheon in the Green Age. The official word on the matter is that the creators were never formally going to confirm or deny the existence of gods in the setting's past, but what's quite certain is that from at least the Green Age forward, gods were not operating in the Crimson Sphere.


2) I know of the fanon Crimson Sphere writeup of Athas's crystal sphere and its celestial bodies, but is there any canon information squirreled away somewhere regarding the appearance/properties of Athas's moons or any other planets in the system?

Nyet. We only know the names of the two moons, Ral and Guthay, and that they meet once every 11 years to cause a fun eclipse.


3) How do Athas's elemental sorta-kinda-planes function with respect to the greater Elemental Planes of the Wheel? You've described them before as "elemental nodes" with conduits to the greater planes, but does that mean they're sort of physical extensions of those planes and if an Athasian planar traveler just walks/swims/flies long enough they could leave their sphere, or there's a big ol' vortex or gate or something somewhere in the Athasian planes that will take a traveler out of the sphere and otherwise they're basically closed off like demiplanes, or something else?

You could move through the elemental planes of Athas to reach the Inner Planes proper, yes. The contamination of the Dark Lens is powerful, but not absolute, and certainly weakest there out of any of the nearby planes.


3a) Is travel possible both into and out of Athas that way, or just one way, or it's possible both ways but much easier in than out, or...?

In and out, yes.


3b) How much of this is known to the Sorcerer-Kings and other knowledgeable individuals?

Almost all of the sorcerer-kings, at the very minimum, suspect this to be the case, and most of them outright know - journeying to another plane is a required part of the dragon transformation, with increasing frequency in the later stages.


Thank you for your thoughts. :smallsmile:
The only one I would outright disagree with is Zarus; he sounds more like a Baator guy to me

I did consider that, but his writeup is extremely clear that his dogma includes militaristic subjugation of others, which is strongly in keeping with other denizens of Avalas. His own insular cube would also fit the "perfection and specialness" theme much moreso than being yet another dark lord of the Hells.


Regarding Kithin, wasn't one of the Seven Heavens a snowy place? Venya, I think... Or do we have to go the cordant planes? K'un-Lun is supposed to be snowy mountains and fits him, doesn't it?

I prefer not to use the Planes of Cordance as they're non-canonical and pretty thin in premise. I chose Arborea because I felt it more suited to the raptoran ethos overall.


If that were true, what implications would it have for the host's soul? With the "normal" understanding of ceremorphosis, the soul goes to its final reward when the host "dies", for lack of better term. Would that happen here too, leaving the consciousness as an imprint, or would the soul remain, imprisoned in the mindflayer?

In the case of the actual Adversary, the soul remained with the body, as it became mutated but did not "die." In Shannon's case, Dice and I are in accord that she herself is quite dead - the personality that pilots Shannotsuul is an imprint from the consciousness the tadpole subsumed, not the woman herself. She doesn't know or feel that, of course, but it remains the case.

[Tzardok]

A little inspiration sometimes goes a... medium way.

Urbanus' realm, Kosmopolis, is one of the few large population centers on Dothion, a city fusing the building styles of every non-evil city building civilization in the multiverse into a seamless whole. Kosmopolis serves as a trading hub for wares from all close villages and as connection to many other places in the Great Wheel; it has an above avarage number of doors to Sigil and portals to many metropoles on the Prime. Petitioners are easily recognizable by their skin like masonry; most of them spent their time constructing new and maintaining old structures. Others patroll the streets or forge plans to improve Prime cities under Urbanus' aegis. The Building God himself resides inside the Domicile, a cathedral resembling a civic hall in the center of the city.

Zarus' realm, Humanity, F*** Yeah! Crown of Creation, covers a medium sized cube on Avalas. The whole cube shines in a golden light, as if it tried to be a sun in the endless reaches of Avalas. The buildings the petitioners reside and work in are spires, resembling a crown's prongs. Zarus' petitioners appear on the pinnacle of their youth, strong and with a golden tinge to their skin. They spend most of their time with training and competition, but some prefer art and engineering. Menial work is done by nonhuman slaves, most of which are prisoners taken during the frequent skirmishes with the orks of Nishrek and the goblinoids of Clangor. The Perfect One is no distant god and oversees his petitioners' work personally, to punish slacking and honor exceptional feats.

Tuilviel Glithien's realm is called Night's Silent Wings. It is located in a mountainous forest region in Karasutra, close to where the Animal Lord of Owls resides. The sky here is alight with millions of stars, and owls and other night birds flit everywhere. Tuilviel's petitioners resemble raptorans with dark plumage, no matter what race they where in life. Besides a village on a mountain cliff there are no signs of civilisation in the Night's Silent Wings, something the fiercily independent inhabitants prefer that way. Better to hunt in the dark and contemplate the beauty of the night than to spent more time with others than necessary. The Queen of Air and Night herself can never be met, but is seen by all: The sky here is in fact her giant wings covering the whole realm.

Küwitt is the divine realm of Kithin. The Father of Snow resides in Mithardir, on a high and snowy mountain contrasting with the desert around it. Just beneath the snow lie the dead of the Raptorans, gently sleeping as if they died of hypothermia. Kithin's petitioners, who look as if the cold has frozen all color out of them, dig those dead up, guided by snow white screaching owls, and gently awake them. Afterwards they are escorted to the mountain peak, where Kithin interrogates them on their faith in life and send them on to their proper deity. Visitors that wish an audience with him need to do the hazardous climb themselves, if they can't convince one of the petitioners or owls to escort them there.

[Dalmosh]

How common are elementite swarms on the elemental planes?

What causes immature elementals to congregate in this manner?

[Bohandas]

What is known about Anarazel the Daring Darkness, the demon prince of adventurers?

[enderlord99]

What unique demon is the least Chaotic of those who still officially are Chaotic Evil (as opposed to one which has officially fallen law-wards to Neutral Evil)

[Tzardok]

What unique demon is the least Chaotic of those who still officially are Chaotic Evil (as opposed to one which has officially fallen law-wards to Neutral Evil)

I think the typical answer about an unusually "lawful" demon is Graz'zt, isn't it?

Also, I thought we had decided that we would rename "fallen law-wards" as "codified". (At least, I decided that. :smalltongue: )

[enderlord99]

I think the typical answer about an unusually "lawful" demon is Graz'zt, isn't it?)

Oh, right. Him. Well, that was easy.

[aj77]

Does anyone know of any write ups for the Lovecraft Mythos entities as D&D gods?

Failing that, does anyone want to posit such stats?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Does anyone know of any write ups for the Lovecraft Mythos entities as D&D gods?

Failing that, does anyone want to posit such stats?

They showed up in 1e Deities & Demigods (before later being removed (https://dmdavid.com/tag/the-true-story-of-the-cthulhu-and-elric-sections-removed-from-deities-demigods)), and there are no official stat blocks for them that are more recent than that.

There is a d20 Call of Cthulhu game whose sourcebooks you might be able to mine for writeups, but I'm pretty sure those stats would be along the lines of "Cthulhu - HP: Yes; AC: You Miss; Damage: 1d6 investigators per round" and so forth, so not entirely helpful.

[Fable Wright]

There is a d20 Call of Cthulhu game whose sourcebooks you might be able to mine for writeups, but I'm pretty sure those stats would be along the lines of "Cthulhu - HP: Yes; AC: You Miss; Damage: 1d6 investigators per round" and so forth, so not entirely helpful.

I question the value of this writeup given that someone with Improvised Weapon (Boat) managed to hit Cthulhu hard enough to go back to bed. Seems a bit lore-disingenuous.

[The Insanity]

Does anyone know of any write ups for the Lovecraft Mythos entities as D&D gods?

Failing that, does anyone want to posit such stats?
Pathfindet 1st ed. has a few Old Ones stated up.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I question the value of this writeup given that someone with Improvised Weapon (Boat) managed to hit Cthulhu hard enough to go back to bed. Seems a bit lore-disingenuous.

The Cthulhu Mythos RPG stuff has always had an unfortunate tendency towards railroading and unbeatable badguys and such because mumble mumble eldritch geometries mumble beyond human comprehension mumble. I'm not convinced that everyone who designs a published Mythos RPG necessarily reads the original Lovecraft, as opposed to merely being informed by Cthulhu's memetic invulnerable badassitude.

That being said, while you'd need to ignore most of the numbers in the stat blocks, the d20 CoC material could at least give ideas on relative strengths, ability names, and other inspiration as a starting point for something more sane.

That's why I mentioned the 1e D&DG. Yes, the Old Ones are considered gods, but they're relatively approachable stat-wise. Cthulhu, for instance, has stuff like 400 HP, AC 2, +2 or better weapons to-hit, 80% magic resistance, Str 25, Int 20, and moderate psionic ability in an edition when Asmodeus had 199 HP, AC -7, +3 or better weapons to-hit, 90% magic resistance, Str 24, Int 20, and strong psionic ability--pretty beefy compared to mid-high level characters, but not unbeatably strong and not the strongest one in his pantheon either.

[enderlord99]

...why would Big A have an armor-class of negative seven‽

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Because 1e armor class is descending, where 10 is the worst AC (no protection), 2 is the best mundane AC (plate armor plus a shield), and magical enhancements can take you down as far as -10. In the 1e MM, only two creatures had an AC better than Asmodeus at -8: Demogorgon (since he was more melee-focused where Asmodeus was more magic-focused) and the Will-o'-the-Wisp (which had AC -8, magic immunity, and natural invisibility to be a "screw you" monster).

[enderlord99]

1e sounds weird.

[Caelestion]

That was 2E as well. THAC0 started at 20 and went down, so of course AC did too.

[Lapak]

1e sounds weird.
It was a weird rule implemented weirdly, but it boiled down to 'your target's AC is used a modifier to your attack roll against a static target' rather than 'the AC is the target you roll against,' which is not that silly on the face of it.

[Thurbane]

Re: D&D stats for Lovecraftian beings - to be honest, the relative power of of Great Old Ones compared to D&D gods and archfiends is massively open to interpretation.

It boils down to a similar debate to "Could a Star Destroyer beat The Enterprise" - it all depends on your PoV in regards to the relevant fandom.

My 2 coppers: if I was to stat them in my games, they would be similar in terms of power to various existing gods and archfiends, for the sake of simplicity.

CoC d20 isn't a bad starting point for using/statting them in 3.X games. I'm not familiar with the PF versions (not being a PF player myself), but that would also probably be useful.

[blackwindbears]

The Planar Binding spell begins:
"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range."

How does this work from the outsiders perspective? If you don't use a true name you just get a general outsider of the correct type. How is this selected? Lure seems to imply that they aren't literally proofed at random but they perhaps make a decision with a will save to avoid.

Is the fiend selected completely at random or is it predictable in some sense a fiend is selected "closest" to what is described or something

[afroakuma]

Every time I have tried to answer these questions over the past week, my computer has crashed. Let's see if I get lucky this time :smallsigh:


How common are elementite swarms on the elemental planes?

Likely more common than we would expect based on encounter rates alone - they are tiny elementals on planes of the same matter, after all.


What causes immature elementals to congregate in this manner?

Two possibilities, not necessarily mutually exclusive:

1) Whatever force sparks an elemental animus to its inception activates a cluster all at once, and they stay congregated until they develop sufficient individuality and self-sufficiency to break away from the swarm.

2) Clustering together affords security against the strange predators of the elemental planes who would feast on immature elementals. Safety in numbers and all that.


What is known about Anarazel the Daring Darkness, the demon prince of adventurers?

Very little, though I am sketching up a loose idea for him. His layer is the 79th layer of the Abyss, the Emessu Tunnels.


What unique demon is the least Chaotic of those who still officially are Chaotic Evil (as opposed to one which has officially fallen law-wards to Neutral Evil)

Graz'zt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO81C6tVcsc&t=47s), though he's still monumentally chaotic and in zero danger of alignment shift.


The Planar Binding spell begins:
"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range."

How does this work from the outsiders perspective?

They feel the draw of a tantalizing offer - a compulsion like hunger, thirst, or any other fundamental desire. Even a modron would feel pulled to rectify the chaos of the universe. If they give in and give it their attention, they are whisked into the trap.


If you don't use a true name you just get a general outsider of the correct type. How is this selected?

The construction of the spell seeks out an outsider of the appropriate type - based on the carefully-prepared parameters in the case of a wizard casting, or the sense of need projected by a sorcerer's spell. The specific individual determined isn't set by the spell unless an individual is named - rather, the spell just goes for path of least resistance. What exactly constitutes the "path" is all bizarre arcane metaphysics, but that's conjuration for you.


Is the fiend selected completely at random or is it predictable in some sense a fiend is selected "closest" to what is described or something

You can't deliberately try to nab a fiend away from a particular spot, if that's what you're asking, unless you can name the individual. No conjuring of "the fiend guarding the door to the treasure vault."

[Kalkra]

I assume that this if the place to ask this. Are there stats for the Queen of Chaos in 3e or 3.5 anywhere? I've seen it referenced, but I couldn't find it.

[Thurbane]

Not sure about anything official, but here's a fan-made 3.0 conversion: Queen of Chaos (https://web.archive.org/web/20120503061159/http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/demon/queen_of_chaos.htm)

[Kalkra]

Not sure about anything official, but here's a fan-made 3.0 conversion: Queen of Chaos (https://web.archive.org/web/20120503061159/http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/demon/queen_of_chaos.htm)

Seems to be what I saw referenced, no wonder I couldn't find it. Thanks.

[Bohandas]

It's worth noting that that statblock contridicts the Queen of Chaos' few official 3.5e stats. According to Fiendish Codex 1 (pg 106) the Queen is an Obyrith and thus should have resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire and continuous True Seeing

[Dalmosh]

Originally Posted by Bohandas
What is known about Anarazel the Daring Darkness, the demon prince of adventurers?

Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss is explicitly 3rd Party (and not especially afro-canon compatible), but it's pretty good 3rd party and really deserves mention here since it was co-written by Erik Mona of Fiendish Codex 1 fame, who explicitly intended it to expand upon the cosmology presented officially in FC1. It very obviously assigns WotC IP Lords different (very similar) placeholder names while focussing around minor Lords, expanding several mentioned by name only in the back of FC1.

In canon, these Lords are officially only throwaway references from sources like Hellbound:the Blood War and Faces of Evil, but since the names are mostly drawn from (I think) Babylonian mythology they are open content. Anarazel is such an entity, as is Abraxus the Unfathomable, Azazel the Outcast Prince, Socotbenoth the Persuader, Nocticula the Undeniable and Haagenti Lord of Alchemy

[Tzardok]

It's worth noting that that statblock contridicts the Queen of Chaos' few official 3.5e stats. According to Fiendish Codex 1 (pg 106) the Queen is an Obyrith and thus should have resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire and continuous True Seeing

Not to mention a unique Form of Madness.

[Bohandas]

Do ALL bounded spaces in Sigil eventually become portals? And if not, what are the restrictions? Also, how long foes it take?


Not to mention a unique Form of Madness.

You're right, I forgot that one (ironically that was originally going to be the only thing I pointed out, but then I looked up what else the obyriths had going on and somehow only remembered those things when I posted)

[Tzardok]

Do ALL bounded spaces in Sigil eventually become portals? And if not, what are the restrictions? Also, how long foes it take?

All the portals in Sigil are controlled be the Lady. She and she alone decides wether a doorway is portal and what exactly opens it. Yes, that means that sometimes every portal is closed and entirely new ones open at her whim. Luckily that happens only very rarely.

[Thurbane]

It's worth noting that that statblock contridicts the Queen of Chaos' few official 3.5e stats. According to Fiendish Codex 1 (pg 106) the Queen is an Obyrith and thus should have resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire and continuous True Seeing

Not to mention a unique Form of Madness.

Maybe we can tweak that stat block to be more 3.5 compliant?

[Tzardok]

So, I converted those stats to 3.5. The only thing I need is a Form of Madness. Anyone any ideas?


Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Obyrith)
Hit Dice: 20d8+120 (210 hp)
Initiative: +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 20 ft, swim 40 ft
AC: 34 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +25 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 33
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+39
Attack: +5 anarchic returning trident +35 melee (1d12+16 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures); or tentacle melee +29 (2d4+11); or +5 anarchic returning trident +20 ranged (1d12+11 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures)
Full Attack: +5 anarchic returning trident +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (1d12+16 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures) and 2 tentacles +27 melee (2d4+5); or +5 anarchic returning trident +20 ranged (1d12+11 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures)
Face/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft (60 ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Constrict (2d4+11), crush (2d6+11), form of madness, improved grab, noxious cloud, spell-like abilities, tear (2d6+5)
Special Qualities: Chaos gate, damage reduction 20/cold iron, epic and lawful, darkvision 60 ft, empathic link, immunity to mind-affecting and poison, regeneration 10, resistance 20 to cold, electricity, fire and acid, SR 34, telepathy 100 ft, true sight
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +19
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +28, Concentration +29, Diplomacy +32, Disguise +5 (+7 to pretend to be someone else), Hide -7, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +30, Knowledge (history) +30, Listen +38, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Sleight of Hand +3, Spellcraft +32, Spot +38, Survival +30 (+32 when tracking someone, +32 on other planes), Swim +42, Use Magic Item +28, Use Rope +1 (+3 to tie someone up)
Feats: Dark SpeechB, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (trident)
Climate/Terrain: Abyss (Steaming Fen)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 24
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Chaotic evil

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—chain lightning, chaos hammer, clairvoyance/clairaudience, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect magic, fear, greater dispel magic, major image, magic circle against law, magic missile, mantle of chaos, mass charm monster, pyrotechnics, read magic, slow, suggestion, symbol of death, symbol of insanity, symbol of pain, symbol of persuasion, symbol of weakness, telekinesis, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), tongues (self only), unhallow, ventriloquism, and word of chaos; 3/day—polymorph any object; 1/day—circle of death. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 20th-level sorcerer (save DC 15 + spell level).
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Queen must hit an opponent with a tentacle attack. If she gets a hold, she can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): The Queen deals 2d4+11 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Large or smaller creatures. She may pass a trapped creature to the tentacles on her lower body in order to free up her primary tentacles. This is a free action. A foe still takes constriction damage each round regardless of which tentacle holds it.
An attack with a slashing weapon that deals at least 15 points of damage severs a tentacle (AC 25).
Tear (Ex): A beak hidden among her tentacles automatically bites a trapped opponent for 2d6+5 points of damage each round.
Noxious Cloud (Su): Affected as by deeper darkness and stinking cloud, cone, 30 feet, every hour; Fortitude save (DC 26).
Crush (Ex): The Queen may place a constricted opponent under her massive lower body as a standard action. A trapped opponent takes 2d6+11 points of crushing damage per round. A creature may escape by making an Escape Artist check or Strength check with a DC of 32.
Empathic Link (Su): The Queen has a sixth sense concerning the Rod of Seven Parts and can sense its precise location when a creature begins assembling the pieces or when the wielder uses one of the Rod’s powers. This ability is not inhibited by distance or plane, though she can only detect the Rod if it is in the Abyss, the Material Plane, or the current plane in which she is traveling.
Regeneration (Ex): The Queen of Chaos takes normal damage from lawful wepaons and effects and from epic weapons. If she loses a tentacle or body part, the lost portion regrows in 4d12 hours.
Chaos Gate (Su): Three times per hour, when the Queen detects the Rod being used, she can create a gate within 30 feet of her. The other end opens in the Abyss or the Material Plane 30-120 feet away from the current wielder of the Rod. For each piece of the Rod that has been assembled, subtract 10 feet from the distance the gate appears in front of the wielder. Through this gate, the Queen will send a pack or troupe of spider-demons to slay the wielder and retrieve the Rod.
Any creature except for demons that steps through the gate (on either side) has a 25% chance of being swept to a random outer plane of existence.
Objects and magical effects cannot pass through the chaos gate unless worn or carried.
Form of Madness (Su): Any creature within 120 feet that observes the Queen of Chaos must attempt a Will save. Failure means that the creature perceives the endless rift of chaos that the obyriths desire to bring about across the multiverse, standing fascinated until broken free of the effect. Creatures so affected take a -4 penalty to saving throws to escape being fascinated (such as due to an approaching hostile creature), and must make a save (with a +4 bonus) for any other circumstance that would normally end fascination immediately. Blocking off the creature's line of sight to the Queen completely instantly ends the fascination, as does dispel chaos or a dictum. Similar effects may also be successful.

The horror of the Queen's form of madness is particularly insidious. A creature that has failed a saving throw against this effect begins to believe the world is inherently wrong, that lines and shapes and order are a kind of toxic rigidity, a prison for the mind, a chain for the soul. The victim suffers a -2 morale penalty to any action done at the direction of another, whether an order, an encouragement, or a suggestion, as they dread the idea that freedom may not exist. Similarly, they take a -2 morale penalty to any rolls made while knowingly in the company of lawful creatures, as they suffer from a terror that such beings are automatons attempting to keep the multiverse in a fixed and inescapable state. Once per week, the victim must make another Will save. On a failure, they suffer 1 point of Wisdom drain and their alignment shifts one step toward chaotic evil. A victim whose Wisdom reaches 0 is transformed into a beast of chaos.

Heal or greater restoration can cure the effects if the caster makes a DC 30 caster level check, as can modify memory if the experience of seeing the Queen is removed from the victim's mind. Any Wisdom drain sustained converts to Wisdom damage and recovers normally. The experience of changing alignment, even temporarily, may have long-term repercussions for the victim. Once the transformation is complete, only a wish or miracle can reverse it - such spells will also instantly cure the effects of the form of madness.


Edit: Form of Madness, get!

[Bohandas]

Maybe an effect akin to the spells Insanity, Maddening Scream, and/or Maddening Whispers (with the specific version of maddening whispers being chosen randomly)

Or perhaps creatures see her as their true rightful ruler

EDIT:
Or maybe their alignment moves one step towards chaotic

EDIT:
No. I've got it. Her form of madness should induce random changes in personality, mirroring the environmental changes wrought by her "waves of chaos" ability (which should be included in the chaos gate ability BTW. in the module opening a chaos gate has a 20% chance of altering the local environment (to varying degrees in terms of ecology, topography, geography, climate etc) and screwing with the timelines of anyone caught in the radius of the change (and not protected by the powers of Law) so that to them it's always been that way). In cases where the save is failed by a large margin, perhaps physical changes may occur as well, or corruption points (see Heroes of Horror) may be accumulated.


EDIT:
Also, use of the chaos gate power isn't intrinsically tied to the rod; it's simply one of the Queen's powers. And it's supposed to prematurely age non-demons, not randomly dispatch them.

EDIT:
As an aside, I wonder whether it is intentional that the Queen, as described in the module, looks exactly like Ursula the Sea Witch from Disney's The Little Mermaid which came out seven years earlier (lower body of a cephalopod, upper body of a fat lady, and blue skin)

[Tzardok]

EDIT:
As an aside, I wonder whether it is intentional that the Queen, as described in the module, looks exactly like Ursula the Sea Witch from Disney's The Little Mermaid which came out seven years earlier (lower body of a cephalopod, upper body of a fat lady, and blue skin)

She also carries a trident. Curious...

Edit: Maybe her Form of Madness makes people unable to talk. :smallbiggrin:

[Clistenes]

We know that deities know everything related to their portfolio so long as it happens within a Crystal Sphere where they are worshiped by the locals (some more than others... demigods only know about it if it affects a lot of people...).

We know they can perceive anything that happens in a large radius around their worshipers, temples, holy symbols and parts of their portfolio...

But that is limited to their turf... Kelemvor may know that a Faerunian is going to die a month before it happens, but he knows no **** about who is dying on Krynn...

My question is, what about the Planes? These are kinda common ground, they don't belong to any pantheon in particular... are gods flying blind when it comes to what happens in the Planes?

Let say Bane is hunting some guy who escapes to the Planes... Is he restricted to regular spells? Does he just command his many proxies and clerics to regularly cast divinations searching for clues?

In some settings allied deities automatically share information, so everything Selune knows is known by Chauntea, for example... but they probably don't share it freely with deities from other pantheons, otherwise you their enemies learning critical information that has jumped from pantheon to pantheon...

[Bartmanhomer]

Are there any mermaids or merfolks deities that exist? :confused:

[Bohandas]

Are there any mermaids or merfolks deities that exist? :confused:

Eadro

from Stormwrack, pg.49:

"Eadro is the patron deity of locathah, merfolk, and tritons. All three races claim him as their creator, each pointing to itself as the most perfect example of sea folk. His symbol is a spiral or whirlpool. He appears as a tall and perfect specimen of his worshipers’ race."

He's true neutral and his domains are Protection, Seafolk, and Water


So, I converted those stats to 3.5. The only thing I need is a Form of Madness. Anyone any ideas?


Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Obyrith)
Hit Dice: 20d8+120 (210 hp)
Initiative: +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 20 ft, swim 40 ft
AC: 34 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +25 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 33
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+39
Attack: +5 anarchic returning trident +35 melee (1d12+16 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures); or tentacle melee +29 (2d4+11); or +5 anarchic returning trident +20 ranged (1d12+11 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures)
Full Attack: +5 anarchic returning trident +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (1d12+16 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures) and 2 tentacles +27 melee (2d4+5); or +5 anarchic returning trident +20 ranged (1d12+11 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures)
Face/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft (60 ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Constrict (2d4+11), crush (2d6+11), form of madness, improved grab, noxious cloud, spell-like abilities, tear (2d6+5)
Special Qualities: Chaos gate, damage reduction 20/cold iron, epic and lawful, darkvision 60 ft, empathic link, fast healing 10, immunity to mind-affecting and poison, resistance 10 to cold, electricity, fire and acid, SR 34, telepathy 100 ft, true sight
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +19
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +28, Concentration +29, Diplomacy +32, Disguise +5 (+7 to pretend to be someone else), Hide -7, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +30, Knowledge (history) +30, Listen +38, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Sleight of Hand +3, Spellcraft +32, Spot +38, Survival +30 (+32 when tracking someone, +32 on other planes), Swim +42, Use Magic Item +28, Use Rope +1 (+3 to tie someone up)
Feats: Dark SpeechB, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (trident)
Climate/Terrain: Abyss (Steaming Fen)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 24
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Chaotic evil

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—chain lightning, chaos hammer, clairvoyance/clairaudience, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect magic, fear, greater dispel magic, major image, magic circle against law, magic missile, mantle of chaos, mass charm monster, pyrotechnics, read magic, slow, suggestion, symbol (any), telekinesis, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), tongues (self only), unhallow, ventriloquism, and word of chaos; 3/day—polymorph any object; 1/day—circle of death. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 20th-level sorcerer (save DC 15 + spell level).
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Queen must hit an opponent with a tentacle attack. If she gets a hold, she can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): The Queen deals 2d4+11 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Large or smaller creatures. She may pass a trapped creature to the tentacles on her lower body in order to free up her primary tentacles. This is a free action. A foe still takes constriction damage each round regardless of which tentacle holds it.
An attack with a slashing weapon that deals at least 15 points of damage severs a tentacle (AC 25). Severed tentacles regrow at a rate of one per hour.
Tear (Ex): A beak hidden among her tentacles automatically bites a trapped opponent for 2d6+5 points of damage each round.
Noxious Cloud (Su): Affected as by deeper darkness and stinking cloud, cone, 30 feet, every hour; Fortitude save (DC 26).
Crush (Ex): The Queen may place a constricted opponent under her massive lower body as a standard action. A trapped opponent takes 2d6+11 points of crushing damage per round. A creature may escape by making an Escape Artist check or Strength check with a DC of 32.
Empathic Link (Su): The Queen has a sixth sense concerning the Rod of Seven Parts and can sense its precise location when a creature begins assembling the pieces or when the wielder uses one of the Rod’s powers. This ability is not inhibited by distance or plane, though she can only detect the Rod if it is in the Abyss, the Material Plane, or the current plane in which she is traveling.
Chaos Gate (Su): Three times per hour, when the Queen detects the Rod being used, she can create a gate within 30 feet of her. The other end opens in the Abyss or the Material Plane 30-120 feet away from the current wielder of the Rod. For each piece of the Rod that has been assembled, subtract 10 feet from the distance the gate appears in front of the wielder. Through this gate, the Queen will send a pack or troupe of spider-demons to slay the wielder and retrieve the Rod.
Any creature except for demons that steps through the gate (on either side) has a 25% chance of being swept to a random outer plane of existence.
Objects and magical effects cannot pass through the chaos gate unless worn or carried.
Form of Madness (Su):


Personally I'd keep the stuff that was upgraded from obyrith standard in the initial version. I know I pointed out her not having the standard obyrith resistances, but I had thought that they were missing entirely; I think maybe I must have searched the document for the exact values or something, or maybe for "resist acid" onstead of "acid resistance" or I didn't notice them because they'd been consolidated into a single special quality. The same goes for her having regeneration instead of fast healing; That's true to the original module and makes sense for a more powerful creature. although I would change the conditions that can overcome it to lawful effects (ie. Axiomatic weapons and direct damage from [law] spells) and epic magic weapons

[Tzardok]

I'm going to think about it. But first I would like to ask a few questions about the kamarel:

What is known about the kamarel's mirror magic? What quality allowed it to ignore the Spire's magic suppressing trait? Could it be reconstructed, or is that quality present in modern day mirror magic?
And finally, what, if any, would be the relationship between the kamarel and the nerra?

[Silent Alarm]

Is there any relationship between The Church of Hala's Weave (Ravenloft) and Mystra's (Forgotten Realm) Weave?

[Dalmosh]

Are Fiendish Familiars the flayed and magically treated faces of fiends that subsequently develop magical sentience on creation; or are they sponteously arising face-shaped beings in their own right that are harvested from the Lower Planes and then grafted on to hosts?

If the former, are they more commonly made by fiends, or by Prime spellcasters? What would be the typical process involved?

[blackwindbears]

For fiendish promotion, what are the fiendish superiors trading off against. Why not promote all Lemures to Pit Fiends and win the blood war with a nearly limitless number of them. Is it costly somehow? Is there a risk that if the promotion candidate is insufficiently an exemplar of the alignment that the promotion will fail?

[Bohandas]

For fiendish promotion, what are the fiendish superiors trading off against. Why not promote all Lemures to Pit Fiends and win the blood war with a nearly limitless number of them. Is it costly somehow? Is there a risk that if the promotion candidate is insufficiently an exemplar of the alignment that the promotion will fail?

The 9 Hells have a limited energy supply that's extracted from damned souls. The Abyss' energy supply is potentially unlimited but the supply available to any particular archfiend is probably significantly smaller

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fiends are not terribly keen on handing out power to potential challengers, and they don't trust their underlings. No fiend is going to promote someone if it jeopardizes their own position. There may be orders from above (to promote underlings for some purpose), short-term vs. long-term tradeoffs (promote useful minion to solve a problem now, deal with jumped-up underling later), and risks taken that don't work out (promote ambitious minion to bring them down all the harder), so there are still plenty of usurpations, but fiends look out for themselves first.

The "greater evil" may be something fiends work towards, but they do so for selfish reasons. Being the top dog, getting that self-interest to align with his own plans is Asmodeus' day job (in the case of devils, not all fiends, of course, though I daresay he strategizes about demons plenty).

[Bohandas]

Fiends are not terribly keen on handing out power to potential challengers, and they don't trust their underlings. No fiend is going to promote someone if it jeopardizes their own position. There may be orders from above (to promote underlings for some purpose), short-term vs. long-term tradeoffs (promote useful minion to solve a problem now, deal with jumped-up underling later), and risks taken that don't work out (promote ambitious minion to bring them down all the harder), so there are still plenty of usurpations, but fiends look out for themselves first.

The "greater evil" may be something fiends work towards, but they do so for selfish reasons. Being the top dog, getting that self-interest to align with his own plans is Asmodeus' day job (in the case of devils, not all fiends, of course, though I daresay he strategizes about demons plenty).

Though this is for Hell specifically (maybe Gehenna too), as most Abyssal promotions seem to either come from the Abyss itself or else be akin to leveling up or else are doled out by the Lords of Woe who don't seem capable to promoting demons beyond the lower castes anyway. And the Demodands are IIRC based on being nearby when a higher caste Demodand dies

[Bohandas]

What compels the obedience of a creature under the effect of Planar Binding? It doesn't have the [mind affecting] tag, nor does it impose penalties like Geas

[afroakuma]

The only thing I need is a Form of Madness. Anyone any ideas?

The Queen is a particularly major obyrith and should have something quite striking. My own proposal:

Form of Madness (Su) Any creature within 120 feet that observes the Queen of Chaos must attempt a Will save. Failure means that the creature perceives the endless rift of chaos that the obyriths desire to bring about across the multiverse, standing fascinated until broken free of the effect. Creatures so affected take a -4 penalty to saving throws to escape being fascinated (such as due to an approaching hostile creature), and must make a save (with a +4 bonus) for any other circumstance that would normally end fascination immediately. Blocking off the creature's line of sight to the Queen completely instantly ends the fascination, as does dispel chaos or a word of law. Similar effects may also be successful.

The horror of the Queen's form of madness is particularly insidious. A creature that has failed a saving throw against this effect begins to believe the world is inherently wrong, that lines and shapes and order are a kind of toxic rigidity, a prison for the mind, a chain for the soul. The victim suffers a -2 morale penalty to any action done at the direction of another, whether an order, an encouragement, or a suggestion, as they dread the idea that freedom may not exist. Similarly, they take a -2 morale penalty to any rolls made while knowingly in the company of lawful creatures, as they suffer from a terror that such beings are automatons attempting to keep the multiverse in a fixed and inescapable state. Once per week, the victim must make another Will save. On a failure, they suffer 1 point of Wisdom drain and their alignment shifts one step toward chaotic evil. A victim whose Wisdom reaches 0 is transformed into a beast of chaos.

Heal or greater restoration can cure the effects if the caster makes a DC 30 caster level check, as can modify memory if the experience of seeing the Queen is removed from the victim's mind. Any Wisdom drain sustained converts to Wisdom damage and recovers normally. The experience of changing alignment, even temporarily, may have long-term repercussions for the victim. Once the transformation is complete, only a wish or miracle can reverse it - such spells will also instantly cure the effects of the form of madness.


My question is, what about the Planes? These are kinda common ground, they don't belong to any pantheon in particular... are gods flying blind when it comes to what happens in the Planes?

Beyond their own divine realms, they rely on divine senses and magic to learn about what's happening on the Planes, though they can perceive around their planar worshipers as well, provided something isn't blocking them.


Are there any mermaids or merfolks deities that exist? :confused:

Oh quite. Merfolk worship Eadro and may also pay homage to Trishina, the dolphin goddess. However, at this time, it is rumored among some planar sages that Eadro's priests are receiving their spells from Persana, the triton god. Given that Eadro has always been an aloof deity, it's hard to say for certain what's going on.


I'm going to think about it. But first I would like to ask a few questions about the kamarel:

What is known about the kamarel's mirror magic?

It functions as 1st level magic, making use of the unique properties of the Plane of Mirrors to effect the bulk of the "magical" work and the relative magical simplicity of interfacing with a reflective surface to tap into the magic. It's also considered impossible for a non-kamerel to make use of it. Only three "spells" are known - scry mirror, which allows distance viewing of an area near another mirror; transport mirror, which allows small objects or creatures to be moved between two prepared mirrors; and spacial mirror (should really be spatial but anyway), the absolute pinnacle of the art, which makes the area reflected within a mirror real, requiring a year of preparation to create the extradimensional link.


What quality allowed it to ignore the Spire's magic suppressing trait?

None - mirror magic is 1st-level magic, and does not function beyond the final magic-safe ring of the Outlands. Closer to the Spire, even mirror magic fails.


And finally, what, if any, would be the relationship between the kamarel and the nerra?

That, we do not know. It is possible that the nerra were created by the kamerel to observe the multiverse and enact their revenge for being displaced so long ago, given their own personal distaste for contact with others. It is equally possible that the nerra are unrelated natives of Mirror, or kamerel caught in a magical experiment.


Is there any relationship between The Church of Hala's Weave (Ravenloft) and Mystra's (Forgotten Realm) Weave?

Only insofar as the latter informed teachings of the former - they are not linked.


Are Fiendish Familiars the flayed and magically treated faces of fiends that subsequently develop magical sentience on creation; or are they sponteously arising face-shaped beings in their own right that are harvested from the Lower Planes and then grafted on to hosts?

The latter would be my guess, though they may not originally exist as face-shaped entities per se - this is likely an emergent quality of the symbiosis process.


For fiendish promotion, what are the fiendish superiors trading off against. Why not promote all Lemures to Pit Fiends and win the blood war with a nearly limitless number of them. Is it costly somehow? Is there a risk that if the promotion candidate is insufficiently an exemplar of the alignment that the promotion will fail?

Besides the need for sufficient soul energy to flood into something to promote it, there are other major concerns - will the newly promoted fiend be trustworthy? (No.) Can the soul even endure the promotion? (Nope.) Is this particular lemure capable of the depths of evil and depravity necessary to succeed as a pit fiend? (Not a chance.) It's not just about being, for instance, lawful evil enough - it's also about the fact that the promotion process itself is part and parcel of why it's valued. A lawful evil being expects to ascend up a ladder of progression with several steps, because to be lawful evil and hold power means that such a ladder must exist - what's the point of being a pit fiend if everyone is a pit fiend? Who would you order around? What makes you, personally, better and more clever than another?

Demonic promotions are more haphazard, but similarly are about individual will and hungers - it's easy to want power, but a successful demon has to understand how much it sucks to not have any - and, most importantly, how much it should suck for others once the demon finally attains even a little bit of power.

Finally, remember that most of Baator and the Abyss don't actually care about the Blood War - it's hardly a priority for the real higher-ups (lower-downs?) and certainly not something to fling all of their resources at. Fiends are the absolute masters of selfishness.


What compels the obedience of a creature under the effect of Planar Binding? It doesn't have the [mind affecting] tag, nor does it impose penalties like Geas

Technically what you're doing isn't forcing its mind to obey you; you are prescribing conditions under which it is free to move about the Material Plane, in effect loosening the restrictions of the conjuration and its attendant abjuration (the magic circle you used to bind them) and in doing so offering them both a way back home and a way to get free of the trap you have bound them in. Note that because it is not a mental compulsion, they are under no obligation to robotically follow a directive - they can and will intentionally screw with your instructions if they don't like you, forcing care and precision. So really all you're doing is changing the properties of the magic circle to allow them to move free from it while remaining enjoined by specific directions you lay out in the deal.

[Bartmanhomer]

What would happen if a fire elemental mates with water elemental and gave birth to a fire/water elemental offspring? Does the same thing happen if an air elemental mates with earth elemental and gave birth to an air/earth elemental offspring?

[Batcathat]

What would happen if a fire elemental mates with water elemental and gave birth to a fire/water elemental offspring?

Would it be crass to make a joke about steamy sex? :smallamused:

[Tzardok]

The Queen is a particularly major obyrith and should have something quite striking. My own proposal:

Form of Madness (Su) Any creature within 120 feet that observes the Queen of Chaos must attempt a Will save. Failure means that the creature perceives the endless rift of chaos that the obyriths desire to bring about across the multiverse, standing fascinated until broken free of the effect. Creatures so affected take a -4 penalty to saving throws to escape being fascinated (such as due to an approaching hostile creature), and must make a save (with a +4 bonus) for any other circumstance that would normally end fascination immediately. Blocking off the creature's line of sight to the Queen completely instantly ends the fascination, as does dispel chaos or a word of law. Similar effects may also be successful.

The horror of the Queen's form of madness is particularly insidious. A creature that has failed a saving throw against this effect begins to believe the world is inherently wrong, that lines and shapes and order are a kind of toxic rigidity, a prison for the mind, a chain for the soul. The victim suffers a -2 morale penalty to any action done at the direction of another, whether an order, an encouragement, or a suggestion, as they dread the idea that freedom may not exist. Similarly, they take a -2 morale penalty to any rolls made while knowingly in the company of lawful creatures, as they suffer from a terror that such beings are automatons attempting to keep the multiverse in a fixed and inescapable state. Once per week, the victim must make another Will save. On a failure, they suffer 1 point of Wisdom drain and their alignment shifts one step toward chaotic evil. A victim whose Wisdom reaches 0 is transformed into a beast of chaos.

Heal or greater restoration can cure the effects if the caster makes a DC 30 caster level check, as can modify memory if the experience of seeing the Queen is removed from the victim's mind. Any Wisdom drain sustained converts to Wisdom damage and recovers normally. The experience of changing alignment, even temporarily, may have long-term repercussions for the victim. Once the transformation is complete, only a wish or miracle can reverse it - such spells will also instantly cure the effects of the form of madness.

Now that is evil. Let's steal it. :smallamused:



It functions as 1st level magic, making use of the unique properties of the Plane of Mirrors to effect the bulk of the "magical" work and the relative magical simplicity of interfacing with a reflective surface to tap into the magic. It's also considered impossible for a non-kamerel to make use of it. Only three "spells" are known - scry mirror, which allows distance viewing of an area near another mirror; transport mirror, which allows small objects or creatures to be moved between two prepared mirrors; and spacial mirror (should really be spatial but anyway), the absolute pinnacle of the art, which makes the area reflected within a mirror real, requiring a year of preparation to create the extradimensional link.

Very interesting. Thank you.


That, we do not know. It is possible that the nerra were created by the kamerel to observe the multiverse and enact their revenge for being displaced so long ago, given their own personal distaste for contact with others. It is equally possible that the nerra are unrelated natives of Mirror, or kamerel caught in a magical experiment.

The Plane of Mirrors really needs to be fleshed out someday. Currently it's just bare bones.


What would happen if a fire elemental mates with water elemental and gave birth to a fire/water elemental offspring? Does the same thing happen if an air elemental mates with earth elemental and gave birth to an air/earth elemental offspring?

I don't think elementals mate the way you are imagine it (or any way found in natural biology). What I could imagine is that they fuse. But that would most likely be a rare event, as fire and water (and to a lesser extent air and earth) are quite incompatible, as seen for example by the description of the omnimental.
If it happened, we would get possibly some kind of aberrant paraelemental or a proto-omnimental searching out the missing elements to become complete or something like that.

[Eldan]

My personal headcanon for fiendish familiars, the one time they came up, was that they are born from Ultroloths. Ultroloths, it was hinted at in one of the old books, ritually flay their own faces off to erase their identities and make themselves harder to track and identify with magic.

[Bartmanhomer]

I don't think elementals mate the way you are imagine it (or any way found in natural biology). What I could imagine is that they fuse. But that would most likely be a rare event, as fire and water (and to a lesser extent air and earth) are quite incompatible, as seen for example by the description of the omnimental.
If it happened, we would get possibly some kind of aberrant paraelemental or a proto-omnimental searching out the missing elements to become complete or something like that.

Oh really? That's a bummer. :frown:

[Tzardok]

Oh really? That's a bummer. :frown:

I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway? :smallconfused::smalleek:

[Saint-Just]

What is the primary source for (seen quite a few times in these threads) piece of lore, namely: the "Guardian of the Dead Gods" is not a god anymore (but still can kick anyone's ass seven ways to Sunday) and doesn't like to be referred as "Anubis" anymore

[Thurbane]

Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

Or am I misremembering?

[Tzardok]

Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

Or am I misremembering?

Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.

[Tiktakkat]

Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

Or am I misremembering?

You are not misremembering.

The first reference to Clangeddin is in the AD&D D&DG. He does not have a write up, but is merely mentioned as part of the dwarven pantheon in the description of Moradin.

A note in Dragon #64, which introduced Raxivort, said that the non-human deities from D&DG were suitable for use in Greyhawk, with some notes shifting home planes of the humanoid deities about.

The first write up of Clangeddin is in Dragon #58, part of a series on the non-human races available for player characters, which included an expanded pantheon.

That deities from that series were reprinted in Unearthed Arcana (AD&D 1st version).

They were included in DMRG4 Monster Mythology.

The Greyhawk setting boxed set From the Ashes included a note that the demihuman pantheons from Monster Mythology were found in Greyhawk.

[Thurbane]

Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.

You are not misremembering.

The first reference to Clangeddin is in the AD&D D&DG. He does not have a write up, but is merely mentioned as part of the dwarven pantheon in the description of Moradin.

A note in Dragon #64, which introduced Raxivort, said that the non-human deities from D&DG were suitable for use in Greyhawk, with some notes shifting home planes of the humanoid deities about.

The first write up of Clangeddin is in Dragon #58, part of a series on the non-human races available for player characters, which included an expanded pantheon.

That deities from that series were reprinted in Unearthed Arcana (AD&D 1st version).

They were included in DMRG4 Monster Mythology.

The Greyhawk setting boxed set From the Ashes included a note that the demihuman pantheons from Monster Mythology were found in Greyhawk.

Thank you both: his only 3E writeups appear in FR books, so I wanted to double check. I run a Greyhawk game, primarily.

[Bartmanhomer]

I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway? :smallconfused::smalleek:

I thought it would be a good idea though but I guess I was wrong. Oh well. :frown: :sigh:

[Bohandas]

I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway? :smallconfused::smalleek:

Covered in oil

[Bohandas]

Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.

In Dragonlance they're all replaced by the god Reorx

[Tzardok]

In Dragonlance they're all replaced by the god Reorx

Hence me saying "on all worlds where they are worshipped". On Krynn they aren't worshipped, so that world is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In our most recent session my character became infatuated with a sorceress who turned out to be a Green Slaad that was presumably impersonating the spell caster it was created from. The Slaad was eventually revealed and had a distinctly different personality from the sorceress and my character now wants to find a way to save this sorceress.

How extra dead is she? The DM is obviously the final arbiter, but what might be involved in restoring her? True Resurrection is a boring obvious answer. We're level eight and have several powerful contacts who could launch us into Planes hopping. This Green Slaad was created by a Blue so that means no original body, right?