Shadowblade Rogue

[Yakk]

I'm playing with trying to use shadowblade effectively on a rogue caster gish.

It starts level 12.

Sorcerer 6/Rogue(AT) 6 has 3d6 sneak attack, 4th level slots. 3rd level shadowblade (3d8), booming blade (+2d8), sneak attack (+3d6) for 48ish damage.

Next rounds quickened BB (48), ready action attack 3d8+3d6+5 (29) for 77.

+1 sorc gives 4.5-9 dpr.
+1 rogue gives 3.5-7 dpr.

After that +2 rogue gets us +7 DPR. Solid.

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Another option is Bladesinger 6/Hex 1/AT 5.

Sword -> Hex curse. So also peaks on 2nd round.

Here we crit fish. 18.5 x2 (.27 crit chance for +13.5, near 100% hit with Elven Accuracy) +3d6 (53% crit).
(18.5+.27*13.5 )*2+10.5*(1.47) is almost 60 DPR.

And the bonus action is free, after first round.

+1 AT gives casting level. +1 AT+1 BS gives +11.4 DPR.

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Champion 5 AT 7 elven accuracy.

Same as crit fishing BS, weaker shadowblade, but full speed round 1 and action surge for off-turn sneak attack.

((9*1.27+4)*2 + 1.47*14) is 51 DPR, but 102 with action surge. Way faster ramp up.

Can drop Bladesinger 2 next for +1d8 Shadowblade damage (x2 x1.27 dpr, x2 with ASl 11.5 DPR) and bladesong.

Then +AT 2 gives +1 casting level and 3.5*1.47 (5.1) DPR.

Or just keep up rogue; +3.5*1.47=5 ish every 2 levels, and +11 from SB after another 6.

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The booming blade "2 sneak attack" trick is tempting.

2*3.5*1.27/2 is 4.4 DPR/Rogue level
Crit fishing with 3 attacks is 1.61*3.5/2 or 2.8 per rogue level. And getting 3 is a bit tricky (SB only gets you 2). At 2 we get 1.47*3.5/2=2.6 DPR per rogue level.

I cannot figure out a way to combine both. Getting extra attack, or enough metamagic to quicken, rules out enough rogue levels to leverage both.

4 caster levels earns +4.5*2*1.27/4=2.9 DPR per caster level with 2 SB taps. This beats out Sneak Attack crit fishing with 2 attacks per round.

Now, scimitar of swiftness gives you an alternative to QBB. Now we scimitar (assume advantage) for 1d6+sneak+dex then ready an action to extra attack 2x.

Each 1d6 sneak is then 3.5*1.27 + 3.5*1.47, yielding 4.8 DPR per rogue level.

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Am I missing anything?

The champ trickster has only 2 2nd level slots/day. Despite efficiency of slots:damage, it may have the least endurance.

[CheddarChampion]

If you really want to min-max, you could quicken a BB/GF then use your action to 'ready' an attack with a trigger of "When the <next person/thing> in the initiative order starts doing anything."
Super cheesy and I'd never allow it if I were DM but you could get two Shadow Blade sneak attack attempts per round that way.
Personally I'd shoot for an Arcane Trickster 9/Shadow Sorcerer 11 (if you think you'll get that far). That'll get you 5d6 SA, 7th level slots (5d8 SB), 4 ASIs, plenty of sorcery points, a Hound of Ill Omen as a flanking buddy, magical ambush, long range darkvision, a darkness-for-others option as a panic button, and some thematic consistency.

So I'd go for your first build, take 3 levels more of AT, then the rest in SS.

[Barny]

If you want to rely on shadowblade (SB) build for melee, then you really need to be careful on your concentration, which can break easily whenever you have terrible rolls.

My previous SB build is sorc 6 paladin 6 upcasting SB as 5th spell slot (4d8 per hit) plus smites on crit.
With Con prof and AOP I have like +11 on Con saves and extrme high AC from full palte/shield + shield spell +def fight style, but I still lose my concentrtion sometime from multiattacks + bad rolls.

[Lunali]

If you want to rely on shadowblade (SB) build for melee, then you really need to be careful on your concentration, which can break easily whenever you have terrible rolls.

My previous SB build is sorc 6 paladin 6 upcasting SB as 5th spell slot (4d8 per hit) plus smites on crit.
With Con prof and AOP I have like +11 on Con saves and extrme high AC from full palte/shield + shield spell +def fight style, but I still lose my concentrtion sometime from multiattacks + bad rolls.

If you're getting multi-attacked for 50+ damage a round, (minimum hit to possibly fail a concentration check is 26 damage) you might want to consider using your concentration on something defensive instead.

[Yakk]

In practice, at most tables, a natural 1 fails a saving throw.

[LudicSavant]

The thing about Shadowblade is that it multiplies the value of extra attacks, which the Rogue doesn't have.

[Yakk]

The thing about Shadowblade is that it multiplies the value of extra attacks, which the Rogue doesn't have.
Yes, but it also grants advantage in dim light/darkness. Which is pretty nice.

So I have two approaches:
1) Exploit quickened booming blade to get 2 sneak attacks/round.
2) Grab extra attack (via Fighter 5 or Bladesinger 6) to get 2 Shadowblade attacks.

With (2), if I get a 19-20 crit range and elven accuracy, crit-fishing sneak attack becomes viable; each attack has a near 100% chance of landing, and a high chance of critting.

(1) with 20 crit and elven accuracy scales sneak attack dice by x2.29 to DPR.
(2) with 19-20 crit scales sneak attack dice by x1.47 to DPR. If we add in an advantage-less bonus action (scimitar of speed offhand) at 75% accuracy, the multiplier hits x2.32, similar to (1).

Setup for (1) is a bunch of sorcerer levels, which gives slots to feed quickened metamagic, plus higher level slots for a better shadowblade. It requires a turn to go "online".

Setup for (2) is Champion 5 or Bladesinger 6/Hex 1 and a bonus action. Champion 5 costs lots of precious spell slots, but has a good alpha-stroke; Bladesinger/Hex works on 1 foe/rest and delays the ramp up to round 2.

With crit fisher, 4 caster levels earns +4.5*2 damage at 1.27 multiplier, or 11.4 DPR, or 2.85 DPR/caster level.
With crit fisher, 6 Rogue levels earns 3.5*3*2.32, or 4.06 DPR/rogue level (cannot hit level 5 slots, starts with level 3 already).

With QBB based, 6 Rogue levels earns 4.5*1.14 * 2/2 + 3.5*3*2.29, or 4.86 DPR/rogue level (assume you can hit odd-level slots). (that is half an upgraded SB there).
With QBB based, 4 caster levels earns 4.5*1.14 * 2, or 2.57 DPR/caster level

Crit Fisher with no spell slots at 12, just a scimitar, does:
3d6+9 + 8d6 SA = 47.5

QBB at 12 (sorc 5/rogue 7) with 3rd level Blade
4d6 SA*2 + 3d8*2 + 2d8 + 6 = 46

Vanilla Level 11 20 dex Rogue with a Scimitar does
6d6*2 + 2d6+14 = 59

Crit Fisher with a level 3 SB does
3d8*2 + 1d6 + 11 + 8d6 = 69.5

but the trip-vantage I get is tasty.

I'm not sure this is working.

[Davo]

Yes, but it also grants advantage in dim light/darkness. Which is pretty nice.

So I have two approaches:
1) Exploit quickened booming blade to get 2 sneak attacks/round.

I'm sorry - how do you get two sneak attacks per round?

https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/rogue#SneakAttack-343


Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.

Or do you mean two chances of landing Sneak Attack per round?

[MaxWilson]

I'm sorry - how do you get two sneak attacks per round?

https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/rogue#SneakAttack-343

Or do you mean two chances of landing Sneak Attack per round?

Just a guess, but this might be a reference to:

My turn:
Quickened Booming Blade vs. Ogre (bonus action), Ready: attack Ogre whenever anyone else does anything (Action)

Ogre's turn:
Attack Ogre (reaction)

You get sneak attack only 1/turn, but this is happening on two separate turns within the round.

[Barny]

Yes, but it also grants advantage in dim light/darkness. Which is pretty nice.

So I have two approaches:
1) Exploit quickened booming blade to get 2 sneak attacks/round.
2) Grab extra attack (via Fighter 5 or Bladesinger 6) to get 2 Shadowblade attacks.

.

Imo, using both action (ready) and reaction to get 2nd booming blade with 2nd sneak attack is a weak combo, Fighter or Pally with SB is much stronger.
For example, a Battlemaster/sorcerer build use SB to action attack, extra attack (x2 in high level), quicken spell BB attack, use reaction attack again with maneuvers like Riposte.

[Yakk]

Sure, but I'm building a rogue.

Trying scale sneak attack up requires (a) rogue levels, (b) a way to increase crit chance, (c) a way to reliably get on and off turn sneak attacks.

I was wondering if I could use shadowblade here, becauae easy advantage both boosts crit chance and makes sneak attack trigger.

Scimitar + SB at AT 12 with elven accuracy and familiar is (6d6*2+1d6+3d8)*1.27 +10=59*1.27+10=85. Which blows everyone above out of the water.

[Lunali]

Imo, using both action (ready) and reaction to get 2nd booming blade with 2nd sneak attack is a weak combo, Fighter or Pally with SB is much stronger.
For example, a Battlemaster/sorcerer build use SB to action attack, extra attack (x2 in high level), quicken spell BB attack, use reaction attack again with maneuvers like Riposte.

It isn't a second booming blade with a second sneak attack, it's quickened booming blade with a readied sneak attack. Readying a second booming blade would require dropping concentration on shadow blade. Overall it's less of a shadow blade rogue than an AT rogue who happens to have shadow blade as one of their spells.

[Yakk]

It isn't a second booming blade with a second sneak attack, it's quickened booming blade with a readied sneak attack. Readying a second booming blade would require dropping concentration on shadow blade. Overall it's less of a shadow blade rogue than an AT rogue who happens to have shadow blade as one of their spells.
Yes, and as neat as the quickened booming blade trick is, it requires a lot of sorcerer levels. And a scimitar of swiftness plus rogue levels gives more damage than a quickened booming blade and is at-will. You just need an owl familiar for flyby-advantage (or another source).

And once you have that, readying an action on your off-turn lets you deliver a second dose of sneak attack. And that boosts the ROI from rogue levels so high that taking the levels needed to boost shadowblade (or almost anything else) is iffy.

Shadowblade itself remains great, as it gives off-turn advantage (even thrown!) for a minute at the cost of concentration and a 2+ level slot.

As we have advantage, elven accuracy is very tempting. Which then makes champion 5 for 2 attacks (and crit-fishing sneak attack) is tempting, but the cost of sneak attack dice doesn't make it viable at lower levels. Action Surge's ROI is low, because you cannot ready 2 attacks, and we already have a source of bonus action on-turn attacks (scimitar of speed).

Basically, I'm finding the Scimitar of Speed to be so crazy good with a rogue that it is making the rest of these optimization attempts obsolete.

[Benny89]

Imo 1 Artificer/X ARcane Trickster High Elf as no.1 build. You get bunch of good level 1 spells and spell progression whole level + medium armor + shields + martial weapons + CON save to keep concentration

Race: High Elf

Feats: Elven Accucracy + 1 DEX (18 DEX), Sentinel (reaction attack for another sneak attack).

Use Familliar Help Action for triple advantage from EA if you don't fight in darkness and attack with action using Booming Blade. Fight along side with your party Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian to trigger Sentinel if possible.

Later you get access to Haste so you can drop shadow blade and with Sentinel have up to 3 sneak attacks. One from ready action, one from Haste action + one from Sentinel reaction.

Doing quick math with 18 DEX on level 9 + Elven Accuracy you will be able to hit target with 22 AC with 73% hit chance so very good. That is without conting any other bonuses like Bless etc. 84% to hit AC 20.

[Yakk]

Imo 1 Artificer/X ARcane Trickster High Elf as no.1 build. You get bunch of good level 1 spells and spell progression whole level + medium armor + shields + martial weapons + CON save to keep concentration

Race: High Elf

Feats: Elven Accucracy + 1 DEX (18 DEX), Sentinel (reaction attack for another sneak attack).

Use Familliar Help Action for triple advantage from EA if you don't fight in darkness and attack with action using Booming Blade. Fight along side with your party Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian to trigger Sentinel if possible.

Later you get access to Haste so you can drop shadow blade and with Sentinel have up to 3 sneak attacks. One from ready action, one from Haste action + one from Sentinel reaction.

Doing quick math with 18 DEX on level 9 + Elven Accuracy you will be able to hit target with 22 AC with 73% hit chance so very good. That is without conting any other bonuses like Bless etc. 84% to hit AC 20.
A ready action costs a reaction.

Doesn't Sentinel just make monsters attack you? I'm not sure why they would ignore the squishy rogue.

Artificer 3 becomes tempting. You can pump int and leave dex at 14 with medium armor. Which is sort of funny.

[Bobthewizard]

There could be reasons to take sorcerer levels on a rogue but shadow blade isn't one of them. The bonus damage you get from shadow blade may not even make up for the lost sneak attack damage. Feel free to use shadow blade on an AT once you get to level 8 but don't multi class to get it. Sentinel feat or 3 levels of battle master or the martial adept feat for riposte are better ways to get off turn sneak attack than quickened booming blade.

Eldritch knight shadow blade is popular because it doesn't give up sneak attack and gets extra attacks to better use the shadow blade. But if you want a rogue, I'd just stick with AT.

[Benny89]

A ready action costs a reaction.

Doesn't Sentinel just make monsters attack you? I'm not sure why they would ignore the squishy rogue.

Artificer 3 becomes tempting. You can pump int and leave dex at 14 with medium armor. Which is sort of funny.

And how enemies know that Artificer Arcane Trickster Rogue is squishy and less dangerous that full plate Fighter/Paladin or raging Barbarian? With this build you look pretty much like Fighter yourself.

If your DM meta-games then I don't have answer from you. Enemies know what they know about PCs when fight starts. Will you attack Rogue who just stabbed you and ignore giant Barbarian with Two-Handed axe in front of you? Enemy has to answer that himself.

Besides you are not squishy. You have medium armor + shield + shield spell. And even if you are hit, you can always use Uncanny Dodge to half-damage if you want to.

Your AC is 19 + shield spell so 24 if needed. This build is not squishy at all.

And where in Sentinel feat you see "enemies will only attack you". Besides how enemies know that you have Sentinel feat or what "feat" is? Enemies know what they see. Again - DM should not meta-game. If you DM does then kindly ask him for stat-block of every enemy at the beginning of combat so its fair for both sides.



This is not Shadow Blade build but you can also go for more "direct" approach with Rogue builds like 5 Barbarian/15 Rogue using Whip + Sentinel. Using STR with finesse weapon allow for sneak attacks. 10 feet reach + cunning action + reckless attack allow to attack with advantage from safe distance and move away and Sentinel can trigger from 10 feet away so you can stand behind your tank who is being attacked by enemy and proc another sneak attack as reaction. Just an example.

[Lunali]

Yes, and as neat as the quickened booming blade trick is, it requires a lot of sorcerer levels. And a scimitar of swiftness plus rogue levels gives more damage than a quickened booming blade and is at-will. You just need an owl familiar for flyby-advantage (or another source).

And once you have that, readying an action on your off-turn lets you deliver a second dose of sneak attack. And that boosts the ROI from rogue levels so high that taking the levels needed to boost shadowblade (or almost anything else) is iffy.

Shadowblade itself remains great, as it gives off-turn advantage (even thrown!) for a minute at the cost of concentration and a 2+ level slot.

As we have advantage, elven accuracy is very tempting. Which then makes champion 5 for 2 attacks (and crit-fishing sneak attack) is tempting, but the cost of sneak attack dice doesn't make it viable at lower levels. Action Surge's ROI is low, because you cannot ready 2 attacks, and we already have a source of bonus action on-turn attacks (scimitar of speed).

Basically, I'm finding the Scimitar of Speed to be so crazy good with a rogue that it is making the rest of these optimization attempts obsolete.

Scimitar of speed is very good for a rogue with one minor problem, rogues aren't proficient in scimitar.

[Yakk]

Ah yes; so you need a Hexblade 1 or Fighter 1/2 dip.

Hex 1 gives you minor spellcasting, and Hexblade's Curse. Fighter 1 gives you ... defensive? (Duelist doesn't work because you have Scimitar and SB, TWF useless because you aren't using TWF). Fighter 2 gives you action surge (so round 1, you can bonus action shadow blade, attack with shadow blade, ready action attack with shadow blade, and get 2 sneak attacks even that round).

Fighter 2/Arcane Trickster 10.

ASI: Elven Accuracy, +2 dex, +2 dex

Another level of Fighter is BM or Champion or EK; multiclassing casters has the problem that your AT caster levels start rounding down, so doesn't help as much as one might think. Or Bladesinger 2 (which runs into bonus action shortage; bladesong isn't as strong as hexblade curse I think).

SB (2d8) + Sneak (5d6) + 5 (dex)
Scimitar (1d6+2) + Sneak (5d6) + 5 (dex)

Against 18 AC (plate), your attack bonus is +5 (dex) +5 (prof) = +10 (+12 with scimitar).

Spells Known:
Find Familiar (level 8 spell) - used to get advantage with scimitar.
shadowblade
5 more spells

With triple-advantage you have 96% / 98.5% hit rates and 14% crit rates.

26.5 * 1.1 + 21 * 1.13 = 52.9 damage from dice, and 11.7 is 64.595 damage per round.

[GoodmanDL]

Besides you are not squishy. You have medium armor + shield + shield spell. And even if you are hit, you can always use Uncanny Dodge to half-damage if you want to.

Your AC is 19 + shield spell so 24 if needed. This build is not squishy at all.

If you are holding a shield in one hand, holding your Shadow Blade in the other, and do not have the War Caster feat.... then you cannot cast Shield.

[Benny89]

If you are holding a shield in one hand, holding your Shadow Blade in the other, and do not have the War Caster feat.... then you cannot cast Shield.

Then take a feat or be clever and make your arcane focus (like crystal) being sewed in your glove palm or some other stuff so it's always on you to use. You can skip Sentinel first if you feel you are squishy and take War Caster first or take it on level 13. It's not reall a big of a problem. Before level 9 you will know if you feel squishy or not with this build and that should tell you which feat to take.

Each game is different. Build from forum is just a guidance. Everyone need to adjust to their table DM or playstyle.

[GoodmanDL]

Then take a feat or be clever and make your arcane focus (like crystal) being sewed in your glove palm or some other stuff so it's always on you to use. You can skip Sentinel first if you feel you are squishy and take War Caster first or take it on level 13. It's not reall a big of a problem. Before level 9 you will know if you feel squishy or not with this build and that should tell you which feat to take.

Each game is different. Build from forum is just a guidance. Everyone need to adjust to their table DM or playstyle.

Sure, but while some DM's hand wave the "need 1 hand free to cast a spell wit a somatic component" I don't just assume it. Shield has no material component so "spell focus embedded in my glove" won't work for that, if your DM even allowed it. Basically, if you want to go weapon/shield caster, you have to take the War Caster feat.