In-Fiction Leveling Speed

[EggKookoo]

How fast do PCs at your table level, within the fiction? Not looking for some kind of rule, so much as just to get a sense of what people generally experience. I know levels 1-3 tend to go pretty quickly for most people. I'm kind of thinking about levels beyond 3.

I guess another way of asking is, on average how much in-game time passes between levels 1 and 20 for your PCs (the ones you play or the ones you DM)?

[OldTrees1]

My current system is to have them level once every 4 sessions. Currently each session seems to cover a bit more than 1d.

Last 4 sessions were:
1d 8h, 1d 12h, 1d 12h, 20h. So 5d4h per level.

We recognize this is unrealistic but we ignore it.

Realistically it should take much longer to level in the fiction. Realistically there should be less exciting events per day. However I don't have a good way to interject downtime in a sandbox. The Players control the pace as which the PCs venture forth. At best I can speed it up by adding doomsday clocks. But slowing it down is in the PC's hands (well, I can cut advancement per session).

[EggKookoo]

Yeah, I see the same thing. My players hit 3rd a while ago, and while it was a good number of sessions (we play shorter 2-ish hour games), in the fiction it was probably no more than a week. Seems fast.

I guess it doesn't really matter how much time passes in the game but it grates on my sense of immersion. And I'm the DM! :smallsmile:

[Monster Manuel]

I rarely use any kind of down-time, training requirement in the fiction. It takes as long as it takes in-game. You went from level 1-4 in the course of a day? Yeah, you sure did.

The rules as they are encourage this crazy advancement as a core part of the game. When you ask the question "What is D&D about", whatever else the real plot of the campaign is about, it's ultimately about "the meteoric rise of a small group to exceptional power that stands to impact the entire world, or wider". The same way the core story behind Call of Cthulhu is "a small group of experts in their field uncover something horrible and quickly find themselves in over their head", or a Cyberpunk game is essentially "a small group of exceptional people attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a dark, near-future distopia".

The unrealistically fast advancement, and exponential rise in power and capability is baked into the rules of D&D, and I have the best results in-game by addressing this head-on. People the PCs interact with recognize this, in-world. The wizard who should have spend decades honing his craft is throwing around high-level spells within a month, and the established wizard collages are equal parts fascinated and terrified. The warrior who took up his sword just weeks before is now among the best fighters in the world, and her reputation spreads across battlefields in whispers. No one knows the name of the prodigy-rogue who accompanies these heroes, but they find that word spreads in the underground, and they are occasionally confronted by up-and-comers trying to make a name for themselves.

One of the chief complaints of a friend of mine against D&D in general is this idea that in very short order

Essentially, the PCs become celebrities by the end of tier 2. It defines the arc of the campaign, to some extent, but I find that it's easier to justify the rapid rise to mid/high levels, than to put artificial speed bumps on the campaign, so they can take time and "level-up properly".

[Doug Lampert]

I rarely use any kind of down-time, training requirement in the fiction. It takes as long as it takes in-game. You went from level 1-4 in the course of a day? Yeah, you sure did.

This is a key piece of the meta-story behind D&D that should be unserstood as a core part of the game. When you ask the question "What is D&D about", it's ultimately about the meteoric rise of a small group to exceptional power that stands to impact the entire world, or wider. The same way the core story behind Call of Cthulhu is "a small group of experts in their field uncover something horrible and quickly find themselves in over their head", or a Cyberpunk game is essentially "a small group of exceptional people attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a dark, near-future distopia".

The unrealistically fast advancement, and exponential rise in power and capability is baked into the rules of D&D, and I have the best results in-game by addressing this head-on. People the PCs interact with recognize this, in-world. The wizard who should have spend decades honing his craft is throwing around high-level spells within a month, and the established wizard collages are equal parts fascinated and terrified. The warrior who took up his sword just weeks before is now among the best fighters in the world, and her reputation spreads across battlefields in whispers. No one knows the name of the prodigy-rogue who accompanies these heroes, but they find that word spreads in the underground, and they are occasionally confronted by up-and-comers trying to make a name for themselves.

Essentially, the PCs become celebrities by the end of tier 2. It defines the arc of the campaign, to some extent, but I find that it's easier to justify the rapid rise to mid/high levels, than to put artificial speed bumps on the campaign, so they can take time and "level-up properly".

Agreed. It's a plot point if you don't have lots and lots of downtime between adventures.
Paraphrased conversation between two NPCs from years ago and in a different game.

"Why in the world do you follow these maniacs for only half a share?"

"Half a share of what? What do you get when you kill a bunch of vrocks and other demons?"

"Bruises and some light entertainment."

"These guys had them drop three valuable magic items! Seriously. A year ago they were killing goblin bandits for a bounty of 5 GP a head. Now Gods are asking them to deal with demonic infestations. A year from now I think they will be gods."

"And you'll be what? Their exarch?"

"A very very rich exarch."

[EggKookoo]

Essentially, the PCs become celebrities by the end of tier 2. It defines the arc of the campaign, to some extent, but I find that it's easier to justify the rapid rise to mid/high levels, than to put artificial speed bumps on the campaign, so they can take time and "level-up properly".

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing that PCs should level pretty quickly. And I definitely disagree with the notion that leveling to 20 is some lifelong career. It's more like a tour of duty in the military -- limited in time, but a pivotal part of the PC's overall life experiences and something that forms a core part of their personality. A PC's leveling time is something akin to a real-life celebrity's 15 minutes of fame. I would like that to be more literally like 15 months, rather than 15 weeks.

[Pex]

I rarely use any kind of down-time, training requirement in the fiction. It takes as long as it takes in-game. You went from level 1-4 in the course of a day? Yeah, you sure did.

This is a key piece of the meta-story behind D&D that should be unserstood as a core part of the game. When you ask the question "What is D&D about", it's ultimately about the meteoric rise of a small group to exceptional power that stands to impact the entire world, or wider. The same way the core story behind Call of Cthulhu is "a small group of experts in their field uncover something horrible and quickly find themselves in over their head", or a Cyberpunk game is essentially "a small group of exceptional people attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a dark, near-future distopia".

The unrealistically fast advancement, and exponential rise in power and capability is baked into the rules of D&D, and I have the best results in-game by addressing this head-on. People the PCs interact with recognize this, in-world. The wizard who should have spend decades honing his craft is throwing around high-level spells within a month, and the established wizard collages are equal parts fascinated and terrified. The warrior who took up his sword just weeks before is now among the best fighters in the world, and her reputation spreads across battlefields in whispers. No one knows the name of the prodigy-rogue who accompanies these heroes, but they find that word spreads in the underground, and they are occasionally confronted by up-and-comers trying to make a name for themselves.

Essentially, the PCs become celebrities by the end of tier 2. It defines the arc of the campaign, to some extent, but I find that it's easier to justify the rapid rise to mid/high levels, than to put artificial speed bumps on the campaign, so they can take time and "level-up properly".

I really like this perspective.

[KorvinStarmast]

I really like this perspective. Me to.
Learning by doing, and finding out where your limits are by reaching them. High risk, high reward.

Just to offer an RL analogy: I spent some years as a military flight instructor. We took someone who had never flown before and, with some study ahead of time, yes, they went out there and flight by flight practiced increasingly difficult (and deadly) maneuvers. This grows flying skill at an accelerated rate. Of course, if you get in over your head it can kill you.
Kind of like a D&D adventurer in 5e.

As a ferinstance: in the WW II era, new pilots were landing aircraft on the carriers after a few months of training.
Some of my students went from "Today I learn how to fly" to "I am good enough to fly jets" to landing a T-2 Buckeye on the USS Lexington in less than a year. Rapid progression, yeah. With some risks involved.

(Going back to my own flight training: within three years of starting trainng seven people I knew, in my peer group, had died in aircraft accidents). Also kinda like 5e advneturing in the "closer to old school" style of D&D.
(Nowadays the accident and fatality rate is considerably less than it was then)

[EggKookoo]

Some of my students went from "Today I learn how to fly" to "I am good enough to fly jets" to landing a T-2 Buckeye on the USS Lexington in less than a year. Rapid progression, yeah. With some risks involved.

Would you consider that akin roughly to 1-20 level progression? Or after that year, are they more like mid-tier-3 or something?

[KorvinStarmast]

Would you consider that akin roughly to 1-20 level progression? Or after that year, are they more like mid-tier-3 or something? Actually, I'd call that somewhere in Tier 2, and into Tier 3 when they get to the actual aircraft they are going to fly in the Fleet. (Phantoms, Tomcats, Hornets, whatever). But that takes another half a year to a year.

Again, a rough analogy, not exact. Just the point on rapid expansion of skill and lethality with commensurate risk/reward environment ... FWIW, JD Webster, the guy who wrote the Finneous Fingers comic for Dragon Magazine back in the late 70's was a Navy pilot. (Somewhere in one of the Finneous books there's a picture of him on a T2...)

[EggKookoo]

Actually, I'd call that somewhere in Tier 2, and into Tier 3 when they get to the actual aircraft they are going to fly in the Fleet. (Phantoms, Tomcats, Hornets, whatever). But that takes another half a year to a year.

Again, a rough analogy, not exact. Just the point on rapid expansion of skill and lethality with commensurate risk/reward environment ... FWIW, JD Webster, the guy who wrote the Finneous Fingers comic for Dragon Magazine back in the late 70's was a Navy pilot. (Somewhere in one of the Finneous books there's a picture of him on a T2...)

Okay, yeah, it feels right (to me) that a PC hits 20 after roughly a year and a half, give or take. And the slowdown in later levels is mainly because there just aren't that many simple encounters for them, which is more of a roleplaying thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, yeah, it feels right (to me) that a PC hits 20 after roughly a year and a half, give or take. And the slowdown in later levels is mainly because there just aren't that many simple encounters for them, which is more of a roleplaying thing. As far as I am concerned, anythng beyond Tier 3 is almost a new game, since it tends to be out of world/off plane stuff as often as not.


At the fourth tier (levels 17–20), characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic (or villainous) archetypes in their own right. The fate of the world or even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures. For a pilot, that's going to NASA and becoming an astronaut. :smallcool:

[micahaphone]

Here's how I've done it in my game:

A rational person pays to go to wizard school, and by the time you're about a grad student equivalent, you can probably cast a 4th level spell or two. That's a minimum of 6 years studying, probably more like 10-15. You'll need to be a real old fogey before you hit archmage status.


Alternatively, you can become an adventurer. The experience and learning will happen at a breakneck speed, which might result in your neck being broken. However, you'll be casting 4th level spells after ~6-8 months of adventuring.


I like to put other adventurers into the game world, or the shopkeep is a former adventurer, the last survivor of his party. Reminds the group that they're not the only heroes to have ever arisen, and why going adventuring isn't seen as a common or typical career path.

[DevilMcam]

In our gae we usually level up every 2 to 4 sessions (each mini arc basically) and travel a bunch beteen arcs so something like a level every couple month.
Or you could be a warlock and buy your way to the top

[wookietek]

You can go to school and level up slowly and safely or you can go out adventuring and level up quickly but dangerously. The adventuring life explains why some of these PC's don't really know their spells and abilities as well as if they had studied to learn them, but it creates for some tall tales around the campfire explaining "what really happened."

[ImproperJustice]

I tend to rapid progress levels from 1-5, the. Slow way down to every 2-3 sessions for levels 6-12, theN high speed to 20.

Those mid levels are for the struggles of figuring out who they are, and then once that is sorted, rapid blasting through the end level battles so we can retire and start something new.

[EggKookoo]

I appreciate the responses but just a note that I'm more curious about in-game time, rather than real-world time.

[Torpin]

does anyone actually use the XP guidelines, I dont think ive ever been in a game that does so
for me
1-7 1 level per session 8-10 2 sessions per level, level 11 onward scheduling problems and we never resolve the story

[KorvinStarmast]

1-7 1 level per session 8-10 2 sessions per level, level 11 onward scheduling problems and we never resolve the story RL has a DC of 35. :smallfrown:

(uses fingers)

I have had 9 campaigns in 5e so far die to RL.

[Wizard_Lizard]

RL has a DC of 35. :smallfrown:

(uses fingers)

I have had 9 campaigns in 5e so far die to RL.

I've had about 7 in the last two years die. Which doesn't seem so bad but I've only HAD 8 campaigns.....