3rd Ed Boccob vs. Nethys vs. Mystra [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Destro2119

2020-07-20, 11:50 AM

After reading up on these deities (and playing a cleric of each in each edition thereof), I would like to pose a question to this forum: Which deity, IN TERMS OF WRITING AND LORE DESIGN, is the best in your opinion?
Personally, I will list below my opinions.

Boccob (from 3.5 Greyhawk) is the quintessential "uber-neutral deity of magic" archetype. Literally called, "The Uncaring," he exemplifies how most deities of this type don't really care HOW magic is being used, more than it is being used (and advanced) at all. Some might claim this is a boring god, but I personally like him just for setting a industry standard, so to speak.

Design and symbol: Once again, as the "Archmage of the Deities", his purple cloak and "old wizard" appearance is pretty traditional and iconic. I especially like his symbol, since it is neat and orderly, while also being a good representation of his "all-seeing" nature.

Nethys (from Pathfinder) is basically Pathfinder's answer to Boccob. Like a great many things in Pathfinder, they took 3.5's base concepts and added a new spin on them for freshness (and to dodge copywrite). In Nethy's case, this worked out (mostly) for the better. The only real gripe I have with him is how his "madness" and bipolar personality seems to be at odds with his actual goals and personality traits. Like, I would have expected him to be CN as his personality description definitely suggests that, but he is N b/c all gods of magic have to be N, legacy-wise? Plus, I also expected him to favor aspects of magic that were very different from Boccob's, but then I realized that his goals and views toward magic were almost a word-for-word copy-paste from Boccob's description. In general, I feel as if his "insanity" is just kind of a awkward reason to keep basically all of Boccob's magic stuff the same in PF. I still like Nethys though.

Design and symbol: I especially like Nethy's design, if not the reasons behind it, as it really showcases the duality of magic that NPCs, and even the players exhibit on a daily basis, ie destruction vs protection, fireballs vs cure light wounds, etc. His symbol is ok, if a bit simplistic. The only real gripe with it is that his moniker, the All-seeing Eye feels like yet another thing they couldn't express through Nethy's symbol because Boccob already had the eye design and Paizo didn't want to incur the wrath of WotC.

Mystra (from DnD 5e Forgotten Realms, but also part of 3e) is an interesting case since she is one of the only "God of all Magics"-type deities to have a NG alignment rather than an N one. This can be a polarizing element, as she actually IS obliged to screw around with the doings of other, more evil deities. Some decry her for this, as they believe that the prime deity of magic should be neutral so one side of the alignment chart isn't totally OP. They point to a rather egregious incident in a novel documenting Cyric's rule as a newly risen deity when she outright shut down Cyric's ability to use magic until he promised to stop doing something in Zhentil Keep. And frankly, I can't really blame them. Conflicts between deities are supposed to be intricate things, highly dependent on their mortal servants, and the ability to just yeet away the thing that gives them 90% of their powers is pretty low.

Design and symbol: Not much to complain about. Solid design for symbol and deity.

Final Verdict: IMO, Boccob>>Nethys>>>>Mystra, for various reasons, but mainly because Boccob and Nethys both feel more like how an "archmage deity" should act, while Mystra's favoritism is kind of hard to read.

Once again, feel free to voice your own opinions!

Psyren

2020-07-20, 01:25 PM

I agree that the god overseeing the thing every faith needs the most should be TN. So I'm not a fan of Mystra for that reason.

I'm biased towards Nethys both because Golarion is my favorite published setting and because Boccob is very boring. I like the bit of edge in Nethys portrayal whereby none of the others can really trust him or where any plan that involves him has room for the unexpected. But I also think TN is the ideal place for him because magic is simultaneously a force for chaos that follows very defined rules.

Did you intentionally leave out the Dragonlance magic deities? I think Solinari, Nuitari and especially Gilean Lunitari could he considered for this topic too. (Probably not Eberron though)

QuickLyRaiNbow

2020-07-20, 01:40 PM

Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari.

They fit perfectly into their world, and feel like they matter to magic-users in ways that none of the other deities of magic really do.

Psyren

2020-07-20, 02:48 PM

Whoops, I did say Gilean instead of Lunitari didn't I? Edited :smallredface:

Zanos

2020-07-20, 02:58 PM

Mystra (from DnD 5e Forgotten Realms, but also part of 3e) is an interesting case since she is one of the only "God of all Magics"-type deities to have a NG alignment rather than an N one. This can be a polarizing element, as she actually IS obliged to screw around with the doings of other, more evil deities. Some decry her for this, as they believe that the prime deity of magic should be neutral so one side of the alignment chart isn't totally OP. They point to a rather egregious incident in a novel documenting Cyric's rule as a newly risen deity when she outright shut down Cyric's ability to use magic until he promised to stop doing something in Zhentil Keep. And frankly, I can't really blame them. Conflicts between deities are supposed to be intricate things, highly dependent on their mortal servants, and the ability to just yeet away the thing that gives them 90% of their powers is pretty low.
I thought Mystra got in big trouble with Ao in one of the editions for trying to deny Evil spellcasters access to the weave? Since ensuring the weave is stable and accessible is basically her only job, and Ao isn't shy about replacing deities when they aren't doing what he wants.

I am not a big fan of Mystra's NG alignment, either. Forgotten Realms set the precedent that Gods do not have full control over how they fulfill the duties of their station. This caused the Lawful Good mortal Kelemvor to become the Lawful Neutral God Kelemvor, because the duties of his station as the shepherd of the dead forced his hand, and alignment.

I don't see why Mystra is an exception to this, she maintains a power source that is routinely drawn upon to enable the worst kind of atrocities. You can't do that and continue to be Neutral Good.

Ahem. I also like Boccob the most. Nethys has a kind of flanderized insanity/duality theme that I don't feel is actually something that Wizards would care to pray to. Boccob is the ur-Archmage, who pursues knowledge at any cost and cares for little outside it. It's a simple archetype but one I think has endured for a reason.

Wise Weasel

2020-07-20, 03:01 PM

Mystra.

The other too are way to metagamey for me as they are "just worship this cool magic god and do whatever you want as magic is cool!"

Mystra is complicated on the 'good' side, but note she only cares what is good for magic and not so much people. It did take 'newborn' Mystra a bit of time to learn this, like from that novel. Mystra doesn't seek to shut out or favour entire races or kingdoms or regions or particular power groups in their access to ever-greater magic. She doesn't "play favourites." Mystra does tend to foment rivalries between ambitious or evil mages, because it causes them to work harder at the creative side of magic, and she does tend to more freely disseminate magic among good-aligned casters who cooperate with others (because they will tend to spread magic more swiftly and freely). Mystra wants all races using more and more magic; to her, this is a desirable goal. So is peace, purely because it causes the deaths of fewer magic-using creatures than war.

Destro2119

2020-07-20, 05:31 PM

To be frank, the thing that bothers me most about Nethys is how Paizo seems to think being bipolar balances each other out so that in the end you'll be Neutral. But that's not what it's like at all. As somebody who knows a bipolar person (he plays in our group) having "sudden, unpredictable mood swings" is pretty much the opposite of being stable enough to do what Nethys is expected to do.

All in all, Nethy's "madness" just feels too contrary to his actual motives and actions.

Psyren

2020-07-20, 05:34 PM

Some of you are reading way too much into Nethys. It's not intended to be some kind of insensitive portrayal of any specific mental illness diagnosis, rather the nature of his sphere of influence put him more in line with other mythological deities we can't discuss here.

Destro2119

2020-07-20, 05:47 PM

The bigger gripe with Nethys is probably how that, apart from his "madness," there is pretty much nothing more to distinguish him from Boccob.

Seriously, his actual relevant interests in relation to the world read almost identically to Boccob. So either Boccob was secretly insane as Nethys or the Paizo devs got pretty liberal with the copy-paste keys...

His "madness" reads like an informed attribute, is what I'm trying to say.

schreier

2020-07-20, 07:23 PM

I personally love Mystra, and almost always play a character that follows her. I have done a Paladin Knight of Mystic Fire (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Mystic_Fire), a Ranger of the Shooting Star (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Shooting_Star), and a Wizard. My ranger was a worshiper of both Mystra and Selune, and benefited from the Moon-Warded subsitution levels (Wis to AC is pretty sweet).

I also am always Neutral Good, since that fits nicely into my actual world view. I personally enjoy playing exaggerated versions of my real life preferences in a fictional world so that works well.

I do find Mystra's flexibility to be greater than implied in some of the interpretations here. Her high priest in Waterdeep is actually Lawful Evil (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Meleghost_Starseer)

Asmotherion

2020-07-20, 08:16 PM

I'm also Voting Boccob.

The Deity of ALL magic should reguard things extreamly objectivelly, and I like the "true neutral" aspect.

Mystra also has a lot of controversies and seems more of a "merry sue deity" someone created out of an old PC or something... Also, if she's able to ban some types of spells (for expamle spells above 9th level) and she's a Good Deity, seems intuitive she'd also ban the Arcane Manifestations of Necromancy. Thus, Necromancy (and I mean the Evil Aspects of it, such as Creating Undead) is either performed (by Arcane Casters at least) with her approval witch would contradict the fact she's a Good Deity OR would mean she can't control what spells can be performed, contradicting her ability to Ban spells higher than 9th level.

I don't have much to say on Nethys, as the times I've played PF was usually a Custom Setting or the few times I've played the PF setting, Deities were not so much part of the story.

Ramza00

2020-07-20, 08:19 PM

Rejects how you are analyzing domains, and substitute my own criteria. :smalltongue:

3.0's Deities and Demigods version of Odin.

Odin Neutral Good Alignment, Greater God
Domains: Air, Knowledge, Magic, Travel, Trickery, War
Weapon Shortspear
Portfolio: Knowledge, magic, supreme, war

Thus if you are domain and prestige poaching Odin is just synergistic to how 3.5 does domains.

You can grab Knowledge Domain (but use cloistered cleric to grab it), travel, tricker, and war (so you can go ordained champion.) 4 of the best domains in 3.5. Magic and Air are also good. Really there is no bad choices here.

Likewise it makes sense if you have a LG cleric (one step away from NG Odin) to grab Church Inquisitor (Inquisition Domain for the Dispel Magic Bonus) and also Law Devotion (making your Cleric more of a fighter.) All possible with a NG Odin as your deity without taking a feat like Heretic of the Faith.

Furthermore Odin is easy to add to your campaign as a small god or large god, since he is a seeker of existing knowledge. In addition people already have their idea of Odin's lore due to Odin / Wotan / Other Names being so popular in fiction and folklore.

-----

I dislike all gods of magic where they create things out of ex nihilo. I rather have gods of magic being one of the experts at understanding the "Kosmos," gods that see everything is connected and it is not primordial chaos but instead there is an order to things (even if the god is chaotic) for everything is connected and thus there is consequences for every action you perform.

Efrate

2020-07-20, 08:25 PM

We just gonna forget about Shar (FE 3.5 like mystra)? I like the idea of magic that specifically flouts the rules and works around them. Also how they are somewhat divorced from the regular weave almost ur priests of sorts.

Psyren

2020-07-20, 10:11 PM

tiercel

2020-07-21, 01:15 AM

I feel compelled to point out that despite being the Goddess of one of the primary sources of power for her world, a Greater Deity, and presumably a full-blown Divine arch-arch-archmage in a game where well-optimized *human* non-deity wizards can be arguably nigh-untouchable (and arguably, Elminster, one of her most infamous and arguably Gary Stu followers, IS, unless novelization plot demands some of-course-it's-noble suffering)...

...Mystra/Mystryl/Midnight/the-Goddess-formerly-known-as-<arcane symbol> seems to die an awful lot.

Zanos

2020-07-21, 10:09 AM

...Mystra/Mystryl/Midnight/the-Goddess-formerly-known-as-<arcane symbol> seems to die an awful lot.
Well, she's got a lot of folks jockeying to kill her. For some reason. Apparently despite Mystra dying being pretty bad for basically everyone, including the Evil gods, they keep trying...

I think most of the deaths here were retconned to be "just as planned" because the Weave becomes unstable over time unless Mystra reincarnates every once in awhile, often causing many thousands of innocents to die in the upheaval from magic failing across the realms. That's some powerful Neutral Goodness, right there.

Psyren

2020-07-21, 10:16 AM

Well, she's got a lot of folks jockeying to kill her. For some reason. Apparently despite Mystra dying being pretty bad for basically everyone, including the Evil gods, they keep trying...

I think most of the deaths here were retconned to be "just as planned" because the Weave becomes unstable over time unless Mystra reincarnates every once in awhile, often causing many thousands of innocents to die in the upheaval from magic failing across the realms. That's some powerful Neutral Goodness, right there.

I would say Faerun was a crapsack setting, but we already knew that with the Wall.

Kyutaru

2020-07-21, 11:01 AM

Mystra for me. Not only does she have the best magic police chosen among the mortals but she has gone to great lengths to protect magic, even dying for it. The whole Good aspect of the alignment I think just speaks to the motherly nature she has over the Weave and magic and wizards. Magic-users are all her children playing with toys and magic is for everyone. Casting spells whether for good or evil is still worshiping Mystra and everyone gets to participate. What she really has a stickler for is making magic unstable or risking damage to the Weave itself. No mortals using god magic, dead or wild magic zones need fixing, and taking magic from other things is just wrong.

She's like a magic socialist and wants the whole world to have as much magic as they want. Which if I were the god of magic would be exactly my strategy to acquire limitless followers.

Batcathat

2020-07-21, 11:11 AM

Mystra also has a lot of controversies and seems more of a "merry sue deity" someone created out of an old PC or something... Also, if she's able to ban some types of spells (for expamle spells above 9th level) and she's a Good Deity, seems intuitive she'd also ban the Arcane Manifestations of Necromancy. Thus, Necromancy (and I mean the Evil Aspects of it, such as Creating Undead) is either performed (by Arcane Casters at least) with her approval witch would contradict the fact she's a Good Deity OR would mean she can't control what spells can be performed, contradicting her ability to Ban spells higher than 9th level.

Maybe she thinks that keeping magic from people would be a greater evil than allowing people to occasionally do evil with it? Sort of how like someone can be in favor of complete freedom of speech while still not agreeing with every expression of it.

Crichton

2020-07-21, 06:35 PM

Boccob (from 3.5 Greyhawk)

Mystra (from DnD 5e Forgotten Realms, but also part of 3e)

Just to nitpick, but these deities, and their Lore and Design, were not invented for 3.x. They're much much older than that, and the lore has had a long time to get developed, altered, and refined.

I get that we're discussing 3.x, and how they exist in that edition's publications, but to cite them as being 'from 3.5 Greyhawk' and 'from 5e' is pretty misleading, and it also ignores the decades of published material they've appeared in, been tweaked and altered and expounded upon in, and that much of the core concept behind them is from a game edition and lore set that had some different design ideals and was less developed and less well defined, at the time.

Both have existed since way back in 1st edition, with Boccob first being described in 1983 in an issue of Dragon Magazine, and Mystra first showing up in 1987 in the first published Forgotten Realms Campaign Set. Mystra was notably Lawful Neutral at that point, and they changed her to Neutral Good in 2nd edition in 1996, after the Time of Troubles and her reincarnation from the form of the magician Midnight. Which itself is an interesting quirk because Midnight was actually Lawful Neutral too, before she became the reincarnated Mystra.

tiercel

2020-07-22, 01:38 AM

the Weave becomes unstable over time unless Mystra reincarnates every once in awhile, often causing many thousands of innocents to die in the upheaval from magic failing across the realms. That's some powerful Neutral Goodness, right there.

I would say Faerun was a crapsack setting, but we already knew that with the Wall.

Possible new headcanon: Faerûn is just a particularly large domain in Ravenloft, only with many many darklords (see: ridiculous numbers of high level NPCs) and Ao as the local designation for the Dark Powers

thorr-kan

2020-07-22, 11:15 AM

Rejects how you are analyzing domains, and substitute my own criteria. :smalltongue:

3.0's Deities and Demigods version of Odin.

Odin Neutral Good Alignment, Greater God
Domains: Air, Knowledge, Magic, Travel, Trickery, War
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Though, personally, I find myself preferring Wee Jas as goddess of magic as I get older.
Domains: Death, Domination, Holy*, Illusion**, Incarnum***, Inquisition, Law, Magic, Mind, Patience, Planning, Portal, Pride, Repose, Rune**, Spell**, Tyranny
*Domain cannot be chosen by true neutral characters.
**DnD designer's house rules for Spell Compendium domains. Included because I like them.
***Clerics of any deity can select this domain; domain cannot be chosen by true neutral characters.

Tiktakkat

2020-07-22, 12:08 PM

Though, personally, I find myself preferring Wee Jas as goddess of magic as I get older.

Wee Jas is more a power of using magic and magic users than of magic itself as a force.

And it should be noted that Wee Jas of AD&D is rather different from Wee Jas of 3E onward, especially when it comes to undead and raising people. Those elements got rather bowlderized for apparently being "too complex", like Cuthbert begin Lawful Neutral and Heironeous using a sword.

Destro2119

2020-07-22, 01:13 PM

Forgotten Realms sucks. It just sucks. Case closed.

Also, IIRC most IRL pantheons did get writeups at some point, but it was mostly FR and they were handled very poorly.

On a different note from the constantly dying and actually incredibly weak ""important god"" schtick and Faerun sucking, I'd like to bring up a point on Pathfinder's deity treatment.

Specifically, I like how it's actually a point in the backstory that the gods actually do want to care for not only their worshipers, but all they are associated with. Like, when the pantheon of Androffa basically flipped out and reset that civilization to the stone age, higher gods (or other pantheons) appeared and smacked down those power-tripping morons.

Edivdrone

2020-08-07, 11:21 PM

As someone already pointed out, Shar opposes Mystra in the FR setting. How she doesn't have Magic in her domains and portfolio is beyond me seeing as how she made her own weave. Keep in mind that the FR setting tends very much to the Opposed Pantheons structure which is highly typical of high fantasy. Likely the main reason Ao allows Mystra to be NG is because Shar has gained significantly in power, and thus needed a cosmological counterweight. So long as Mystra doesn't deny access to the Weave, and maintains/repairs the Weave through her followers, Ao is fine with her pursuing a NG agenda.

As far as liking one over the other, I've always been a fan of Mystra. Many people drawn to fantasy like to play what they perceive to be the best possible version of themselves. As such, they like to play good characters, and be Heroes. The fact that the Greyhawk and Eberon settings have neutral and evil deities of magic aplenty, but the only good deities of magic are minor Elven gods? (Alobal Lorfiril, goddess of revelry, no idea why she has magic as a domain, and Hanali Celanil, goddess of love, beauty, and the arts, who only has magic as a domain because elves view magic as the highest art. Races of the Wild.)

Yes, I see the point of the true neutral penultimate ivory tower intellectual arcanist, but if you are going to have a number of evil deities of magic, shouldn't there be good deities of magic to balance them? Something that's always driven me nuts.

ShurikVch

2020-08-08, 02:56 PM

I think Solinari, Nuitari and especially Gilean Lunitari could he considered for this topic too. (Probably not Eberron though)

We just gonna forget about Shar (FE 3.5 like mystra)? I like the idea of magic that specifically flouts the rules and works around them. Also how they are somewhat divorced from the regular weave almost ur priests of sorts.
How about the other settings?
Nessek and Uhanam (Ghostwalk)?
Qotal and Zaltec (Maztica)?
Avani (Birthright)?
Nyarlathotep (Call of Cthulhu d20)?

As far as liking one over the other, I've always been a fan of Mystra. Many people drawn to fantasy like to play what they perceive to be the best possible version of themselves. As such, they like to play good characters, and be Heroes. The fact that the Greyhawk and Eberon settings have neutral and evil deities of magic aplenty, but the only good deities of magic are minor Elven gods? (Alobal Lorfiril, goddess of revelry, no idea why she has magic as a domain, and Hanali Celanil, goddess of love, beauty, and the arts, who only has magic as a domain because elves view magic as the highest art. Races of the Wild.)
Well, Corellon Larethian (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Corellon) is CG Greater deity with "Magic" in both portfolio and domains
Isis (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Isis) is NG Intermediate deity with "Good magic" in portfolio, and Magic domain
Girru and Kikanuti from Sandstorm are don't have their divine ranks listed, but Girru is LG, Kikanuti - NG, and both have Magic domain

As someone already pointed out, Shar opposes Mystra in the FR setting. How she doesn't have Magic in her domains and portfolio is beyond me seeing as how she made her own weave. Keep in mind that the FR setting tends very much to the Opposed Pantheons structure which is highly typical of high fantasy. Likely the main reason Ao allows Mystra to be NG is because Shar has gained significantly in power, and thus needed a cosmological counterweight.
Shar's "cosmological counterweight" is Selûne!
Come on, The War of Light and Darkness (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shar#The_War_of_Light_and_Darkness) - ring any bells?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/7/7d/Shar_vs_Selune.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20171205141727

...Mystra/Mystryl/Midnight/the-Goddess-formerly-known-as-<arcane symbol> seems to die an awful lot.
They're three separate goddess - just on the same job:

The old Mystra of Toril was an ally of Wee Jas, but the new Mystra has managed to fully alienate her. That might be part of the reason Wee Jas has taken a turn for the worse - her only good friend in the cosmos passed on, and was replaced by a berk who claimed the name but didn't pursue the same vision.

And, speaking of Mystra...
Actually, it's completely possible to do magic in Toril without using either the Weave or Shadow Weave:

The Weave
Raw magic exists in Faerûn, but it is a powerful and dangerous force that can easily destroy even a patient and skilled mortal. It is locked away inside all matter and difficult to access. Most spellcasters instead draw upon magic through the controlled and relatively safe magic accessed through the Weave.
Thus, faerûnean mages are just a bunch of lazy users who're don't want to use a Command line interface a raw magic, and Mystra is just a glorified sysadmin who allow them access to a GUI the Weave...

Troacctid

2020-08-08, 03:16 PM

Honestly, I prefer the duality of Aureon and the Shadow from Eberron. Aureon represents magic used for controlled, constructive purposes, a force for the good of civilization, whereas the Shadow is the magic that is not safe, the magic that you must pay for in blood and sacrifice, the magic that hides forbidden secrets that might be better left in darkness. The story is much more compelling, with backstory and conflict built in, and I like the possibility that they may be real deities, historical figures distorted by oral tradition, or merely products of mortal imagination, without anyone being about to concretely prove it one way or the other. Their religions have been fleshed out with moral complexity and interesting roleplay opportunities. A clear winner IMO.

Psyren

2020-08-10, 09:51 AM

Edivdrone

2020-08-18, 11:54 AM

Well, Corellon Larethian is CG Greater deity with "Magic" in both portfolio and domains
Isis is NG Intermediate deity with "Good magic" in portfolio, and Magic domain
Girru and Kikanuti from Sandstorm are don't have their divine ranks listed, but Girru is LG, Kikanuti - NG, and both have Magic domain

Corellon does have the Magic portfolio, but not the domain, and generally ignores non-elven supplicants, the racist prick. Isis and Girru are from Egyptian and Sumerian pantheons, both of which use a form of opposed pantheon structure, rather from a WotC published realm and pantheon. Honestly forgot about Kikanuti, but again she's a racial goddess, which means characters that aren't bhukas take second place, though I doubt she's nearly as aggressive about it as Corellon.

And, speaking of Mystra...
Actually, it's completely possible to do magic in Toril without using either the Weave or Shadow Weave:

Thus, faerûnean mages are just a bunch of lazy users who're don't want to use a Command line interface a raw magic, and Mystra is just a glorified sysadmin who allow them access to a GUI the Weave...

More like she gives them power outlets instead of lightning bolts.

ShurikVch

2020-08-18, 12:20 PM

Corellon does have the Magic portfolio, but not the domain
Check the Faiths and Pantheons - yes, he have Magic domain!

Isis and Girru are from Egyptian and Sumerian pantheons, both of which use a form of opposed pantheon structure, rather from a WotC published realm and pantheon.
Once again, Faiths and Pantheons - Isis is there (under the "Mulhorandi Pantheon")

More like she gives them power outlets instead of lightning bolts.
Lightning bolts are completely unusable for any practical means
"Most spellcasters instead draw upon magic through the controlled and relatively safe magic accessed through the Weave" means some of spellcasters, actually, don't draw upon magic through the Weave, and instead using raw magic (regardless of how difficult or dangerous it may be)

Elves

2020-08-18, 01:44 PM

Eh, I'm personally not a fan of Eberron's caginess on the deity existence issue, nor its cavalier approach to letting Clerics violate the tenets of their faith all over the place and still keep all their powers. I understand that removing the one-step rule, the aligned spells rule and the piety rule were necessary for the kind of setting they wanted to create, but I prefer those lines to be a bit brighter/more solid myself.

Problem with having clear deities like in FR is that the story inevitably becomes about them and their goals and plans. That can become repetitive, which isn't a good thing if you're trying to make a setting that can contain many different stories.

If the gods are relatively human-like, it also seems superfluous to add a higher layer that acts like the mortal layer but takes the focus away from it. The Iliad avoids that problem and creates a good balance between the two layers by contrasting the immortality of the gods with the hectic, frantic and short lives of mortals, where they reach for substitutes for immortality like fame. But if you don't want your story to dwell on those themes, the gods can become obnoxious and distracting.

That's why I prefer gods in a fantasy setting to be obscure, remote, alien or abstract. Eberron does that part pretty well.

Edivdrone

2020-09-15, 06:26 PM

Check the Faiths and Pantheons - yes, he have Magic domain!

OK, for the FR specific rules, he does. Per the PH, Races of the Wild (you know, the elf source book?), and Deities and Demigods, no, he does not. I didn't think to check a fourth source for his domains, and this strongly implies that only his FR version has access to that domain.

Blackhawk748

2020-09-15, 06:35 PM

I am not a big fan of Mystra's NG alignment, either. Forgotten Realms set the precedent that Gods do not have full control over how they fulfill the duties of their station. This caused the Lawful Good mortal Kelemvor to become the Lawful Neutral God Kelemvor, because the duties of his station as the shepherd of the dead forced his hand, and alignment.

He became Lawful Neutral after he made a choice to recreate the Wall of the Faithless, which he hated and had destroyed, because all of the crappy gods who did their job poorly were hemoragging followers and complained to Ao, who gave Kelemvor a pretty terrible ultimatum.

He chose to put the Wall back up, and it seems fair to shift him to Lawful Neutral for that. Personally ,I feel that his clerics are still trying to find a way around that Wall because it's really, really gross

ShurikVch

2020-09-16, 09:30 AM

OK, for the FR specific rules, he does. Per the PH, Races of the Wild (you know, the elf source book?), and Deities and Demigods, no, he does not. I didn't think to check a fourth source for his domains, and this strongly implies that only his FR version has access to that domain.
Well, PH info is famously incomplete
Otherwise...

On Hallowed Ground (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Hallowed_Ground) (1996):

CORELLON LARETHIAN
Greater Power, "The Protector"

AoC: Magic, music, arts and crafts, war

From the Ashes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Ashes_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)) (1992, Greyhawk boxed set):

Demihuman Powers

Demihuman Powers of Oerth are fully documented in the sourcebook Monster Mythology. It is impossible to give full details of them here. For reference, the demihuman Powers that have significant followings (more than 5% of the race in question) are listed below. Those marked with an asterisk (*) are female.

Elves: Corellon Larethian (Creator; magic, arts and crafts, war)

World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting (1983 boxed set):

ELVEN GODS
Spheres
Alignment
Gender
Symbol

Corellon Larethian, god of magic & art
Arcana, Light, War
CG
M or F
Crescent Moon

Zanos

2020-09-16, 09:55 AM

He became Lawful Neutral after he made a choice to recreate the Wall of the Faithless, which he hated and had destroyed, because all of the crappy gods who did their job poorly were hemoragging followers and complained to Ao, who gave Kelemvor a pretty terrible ultimatum.
I don't recall him destroying the wall, I recall him judging souls in a biased fashion that caused imbalance throughout the Realms. At the same time, Mystra was being biased in her granting of magic. In any case, the ultimatum from Ao was my point here. Even mortals elevated to deities do not have full freedom over how their deific duties are fulfilled. Kelemvors alignment changed even though his hand was forced by a capital G God. For the same reasoning, I don't think a mortal should be able to grant Evil characters horrific powers and maintain a Good alignment, even if it's part of the duties of the deific porfolio and enforced by an Overgod. The fact that Mystra is still good when her behavior and getting reprimanded by Ao and relenting exactly mirrors Kelemvors situation only exacerbates the discrepancy.

noob

2020-09-17, 06:26 AM

I don't recall him destroying the wall, I recall him judging souls in a biased fashion that caused imbalance throughout the Realms. At the same time, Mystra was being biased in her granting of magic. In any case, the ultimatum from Ao was my point here. Even mortals elevated to deities do not have full freedom over how their deific duties are fulfilled. Kelemvors alignment changed even though his hand was forced by a capital G God. For the same reasoning, I don't think a mortal should be able to grant Evil characters horrific powers and maintain a Good alignment, even if it's part of the duties of the deific porfolio and enforced by an Overgod. The fact that Mystra is still good when her behavior and getting reprimanded by Ao and relenting exactly mirrors Kelemvors situation only exacerbates the discrepancy.

All Kelemvor did was reward and punish the mortals themselves in function of their behaviour.
What made the gods consider his judgement unfair is that kelemvor did not take in account whenhever the mortal worshipped a god or not while before kelemvor decided to do that any person which did not worship a god was punished worse than if they were damned.
It was a fairer judgement than sending people in the wall of the faithless even for the evil atheists(because they were punished but less than in the wall)
So kelemvor was in fact judging souls in a less biased fashion than what happened before and after his "let us not send anybody to the wall anymore" period.

Zanos

2020-09-17, 06:46 AM

All Kelemvor did was reward and punish the mortals themselves in function of their behaviour.
What made the gods consider his judgement unfair is that kelemvor did not take in account whenhever the mortal worshipped a god or not while before kelemvor decided to do that any person which did not worship a god was punished worse than if they were damned.
It was a fairer judgement than sending people in the wall of the faithless even for the evil atheists(because they were punished but less than in the wall)
So kelemvor was in fact judging souls in a less biased fashion than what happened before and after his "let us not send anybody to the wall anymore" period.
He judged the honorable and good more favorably, which is biased in a cosmology where some faiths specifically reward the opposite. He's meant to judge people based on their devotion to their own faith, not how well they represent Kelemvors own values.