Thought Experiment: the WBLmancer

[Quertus]

So, suppose you took the worst chassis: d4 HP, half BAB, no good saves. 2 skill points / lv, only profession & craft as class skills.

To this, you added a class feature that allowed the WBLmancer to manifest magical items / magical item equivalents, of maximum total GP value by level according to a table.

What would that take look like if the WBLmancer were roughly balanced with a Fighter? With a caster?

How would it change the table if the WBLmancer could make (things like durations of or save DCs on) effects key off their stats (attributes, level) rather than the defaults for the emulates items? How much would their ability to allocate points change the table (able to change their virtual wealth allocation every day vs every encounter vs every round vs never)?

The Rules

All created items can only be used by the WBLmancer - no creating a sword and handing it off to the "real" Fighter.

Only permanent or "X/day" items - No consumables.

[AvatarVecna]

So, suppose you took the worst chassis: d4 HP, half BAB, no good saves. 2 skill points / lv, only profession & craft as class skills.

To this, you added a class feature that allowed the WBLmancer to manifest magical items / magical item equivalents, of maximum total GP value by level according to a table.

What would that take look like if the WBLmancer were roughly balanced with a Fighter? With a caster?

How would it change the table if the WBLmancer could make (things like durations of or save DCs on) effects key off their stats (attributes, level) rather than the defaults for the emulates items? How much would their ability to allocate points change the table (able to change their virtual wealth allocation every day vs every encounter vs every round vs never)?

The Rules

All created items can only be used by the WBLmancer - no creating a sword and handing it off to the "real" Fighter.

Only permanent or "X/day" items - No consumables.

I wanna see if I'm understanding you correctly. Is the idea "what if you took a slightly worse commoner, but gave them the ability to reassign their wealth at-will"?

[legomaster00156]

That's just playing a Wizard with extra steps.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Do permanent items with additional limited-use effects count? Example one: a ring of three wishes continues to exist as a permanent ring after all the wishes are used; does this meet the letter of the law? Example two: after using all the charges in a staff of the woodlands, the staff remains a +2 quarterstaff that can cast pass without trace.

Can the WBLmancer manifest a ring of spell storing, and if so how does it behave?

[DeTess]

I wanna see if I'm understanding you correctly. Is the idea "what if you took a slightly worse commoner, but gave them the ability to reassign their wealth at-will"?

The way I read it is that they get a pool per level, kinda like the artificer's craft reserve, but without needing to actually craft.

For this thought experiment, are custom magic items made using the guidelines from the DMG allowed? Are 1-shot wands allowed?

edit: oops, missed the 'only permanent items' clause.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It uses monk instead of commoner, but that's kind of what this build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) did, using WBL to massively boost itself to take on (and take down) all of the encounters in the Elder Evils book, solo.

Now, you'd just need to find a way to count your unarmed strike as both a manufactured and a natural weapon via WBL, and you'd basically have the same results.

Of course, in a real game, you could take feats like Ancestral Relic and Landlord to further break WBL.

[Psyren]

Just play a Noble from Dragonlance. Their Favors can obtain items and wealth as long as it is in service of the plot.

[StSword]

Heh, reminds of the Sacred Smith class from Little Red Goblin Games' Tome of Advanced Item Use for Pathfinder.

They have a pool of matter from which they can "craft" items ex nihilo- At lower levels they van pull out ropes and torches and med kits, at higher levels they can pull out magic items.

[tiercel]

Sounds a bit like a character who, after abusing his class abilities for purely financial gain, gets captured by bandits, has to retool his WBLmancy to escape their cave lair, enforce the "no stealing my creations" rule, go through a more forgettable follow-up adventure before being placed in a situation where he has to be willing to sacrifice himself to save the other PCs and the campaign world, accidentally spawn an intelligent item from his abilities and lead the charge to defeat it, survive a temporary nerf of his WBLmancy, convert to a more Lawful viewpoint when the party splits, then get caught up in an artifact-heavy Elder Evil campaign ender that culminates with Teleport Through Time WBL-chicanery and a final self sacrifice to Save Everything.

Oh, wait....

--More seriously, though, a lot of this is going to require the (A) total amount of WBL available ("House Party Protocol"!) and (B) the amount of reallocation ("my armor, Mark XLVIII") to be tuned to the overall campaign optimization level as much as anything. If you are approaching Tippyverse levels of shenanigans then this character will practically need Stark Enterprises levels of funding, whereas a more T3-T4-centric campaign is going to be more likely "was able to BUILD this in a CAVE with a BOX of SCRAPS!"

[Quertus]

Heh, reminds of the Sacred Smith class from Little Red Goblin Games' Tome of Advanced Item Use for Pathfinder.

They have a pool of matter from which they can "craft" items ex nihilo- At lower levels they van pull out ropes and torches and med kits, at higher levels they can pull out magic items.

This is very much the feel I intended.


I wanna see if I'm understanding you correctly. Is the idea "what if you took a slightly worse commoner, but gave them the ability to reassign their wealth at-will"?

Eh, not exactly. What if, in addition to WBL, they got a class feature of "wealth-equivalent power".


That's just playing a Wizard with extra steps.

That's certainly one possibility. However,

A) without "stat (and level) to spells", you cannot replicate save DCs. However, assuming that was an option, and one you took…

B) there might be issues with Prestige Classes.

C) you wouldn't have the class skills. "Bonuses" *almost* equate to ranks, though.

D) you wouldn't have a familiar, or easy ACF features.

E) if you could *never* reallocate "wealth power", you'd be "strictly worse" than a Sorcerer with equal slots.

F) if you could reallocate daily, you'd sound like a Wizard, but with access to every list, but unable to pull either "15 minute" trick.

(Both of the above would have the added advantage of not being tied to a particular matrix of number of spells, being able to swap levels and even caster level to mix and match)

G) if you could reallocate every round, you'd be almost identical to an StP Erudite.

(All 3 of the above would have the advantage of getting "every spell known" for free)

H) you probably cannot use metamagic rods or, of all things, item creation feats.

I) unlike any of these, you could trade out "magic missile @5th" for "ring of sustenance", or other oddball items.


Do permanent items with additional limited-use effects count? Example one: a ring of three wishes continues to exist as a permanent ring after all the wishes are used; does this meet the letter of the law? Example two: after using all the charges in a staff of the woodlands, the staff remains a +2 quarterstaff that can cast pass without trace.

Can the WBLmancer manifest a ring of spell storing, and if so how does it behave?

Although technical illegal, I could see allocating 125+k to a +5 inherent bonus to a stat. Funny for the "reallocate every round" version.

If you could price it, the "+2 staff w/ pass without trace" would be valid.

Ring of Spell Storing is probably suboptimal, but yes, you could.


The way I read it is that they get a pool per level, kinda like the artificer's craft reserve, but without needing to actually craft.

For this thought experiment, are custom magic items made using the guidelines from the DMG allowed? Are 1-shot wands allowed?

edit: oops, missed the 'only permanent items' clause.

Custom skill boosters might be needed. Obviously, if we're aping casters, we need full custom item support. I'm not sure if doing so is optimal, especially if we don't get full casting stat bonuses.

[Maat Mons]

Custom x/day items give you spellcasting.

A custom Divine Power item gives you full base attack bonus. Or a Skillful weapon gives you 3/4 base attack bonus.

Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stones (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-blue-sphere-ioun-stone/) give you max ranks in one skill for each stone you buy.

I think it was Arms and Equipment Guide that suggested 10k gp for an item that grants a feat.

I still haven't worked out items that set base saving throw bonuses or size of hit dice.

[Akal Saris]

Honestly, I think it would be a fun challenge to try playing such a class and not abusing UMD to ape the cleric/druid/wiz abilities. For example, trying to replace the rogue's party function, or making an archer, since you could produce ridiculous stuff like Hank's Energy Bow from the D&D Cartoon sourcebook.

You could also multiclass into Legacy Champion to advance your WBL features while honing a legacy weapon too - very thematic. And item familiar feat would be a nice touch too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, if I've got this right, it's basically a commoner with double PC wealth, half of which is non-transferable?

Basically, it wouldn't. Doubling one PC's wealth in exchange for having no other features won't impact the table as a whole much if at all. That class would probably constitute the single most customizable class in the game, eclipsing even the artificer, but it won't break any of the game's paradigms.

At the end of the day, there are class features that do everything you can do with wealth but the reverse isn't true.

Now, as for DC setting for the pseudo-wealth; staves already do that as do legacy items. The character can just use his real wealth on such things if he's all that concerned with dropping effects with saving throws. The overall effect on the character's power would be pretty trivial. Items that provide unique effects with saving throws tend to have that DC set specifically for a reason and I'd be reticent to blindly change all such effects to the standard half HD plus cha mod.

If there's one thought that gives me pause, it's the idea of using the pseudo-wealth on one big ticket item the character couldn't reasonably afford at any given level. Say at level 5 they have their standard 9k in real gear and then one item worth 9k from their pseudo-wealth; a deck of illusions for example. The DC to realize the creatures are illusory isn't terribly high (14 per standard item formula) but who's going to voluntarily interact with a beholder to proc the save at CR 5? And that's before you even consider that this guy is now doing at will what an equal level illusionist can do maybe 3 or 4 times a day.

Now you can curtail that easily enough by saying they can't "save up" the pseudo-wealth and must spend the new "wealth" at each level. In my example, the most valuable "item" the character would have from this perspective feature would be limited to 3600 gp; the difference between level 4 and level 5 WBL.

[AvatarVecna]

Essentially just...double money? So, the equivalent of if he were crafting the items himself rather than buying them? So, it's an artificer with no bonus feats, infusions, and a worse chassis.

[Quertus]

So, if I've got this right, it's basically a commoner with double PC wealth, half of which is non-transferable?


Essentially just...double money? So, the equivalent of if he were crafting the items himself rather than buying them? So, it's an artificer with no bonus feats, infusions, and a worse chassis.

Well, "double money" is actually my question… or, rather, is an answer to my question of "how much?".

Obviously, "double nothing is nothing", so… probably needs more than nothing at 1st level. Although nothing keeps me from defining its starting wealth as 500gp.

Ignoring 1st and skipping straight to 2nd… AFB, it's, what, a couple hundred gold? 3rd is just over 2k?

At 3rd, the Fighter has 2 BAB, 2 feats, 12 HP, weapon and armor proficiencies, and negligibly better skills over this class.

At 3rd, a Rogue has 2d6 sneak attack, 1 BAB, Evasion, 4 HP, some weapon and armor proficiency, and 18 more skill points with great skills.

At 3rd, a specialist Wizard has 1 feat, we'd expect about 4 1st & 3 2nd level spells DC 15ish, and better skill selection.

Trying to ape other classes would cost a lot. But can it do something equivalent with ~2k? Changing it how often?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, "double money" is actually my question… or, rather, is an answer to my question of "how much?".

Obviously, "double nothing is nothing", so… probably needs more than nothing at 1st level. Although nothing keeps me from defining its starting wealth as 500gp.

Ignoring 1st and skipping straight to 2nd… AFB, it's, what, a couple hundred gold? 3rd is just over 2k?

It's 900 at 2 and 2700 at 3.


At 3rd, the Fighter has 2 BAB, 2 feats, 12 HP, weapon and armor proficiencies, and negligibly better skills over this class.

At 3rd, a Rogue has 2d6 sneak attack, 1 BAB, Evasion, 4 HP, some weapon and armor proficiency, and 18 more skill points with great skills.

At 3rd, a specialist Wizard has 1 feat, we'd expect about 4 1st & 3 2nd level spells DC 15ish, and better skill selection.

Trying to ape other classes would cost a lot. But can it do something equivalent with ~2k? Changing it how often?

It's not as hard as you'd think.

Even with my proposed "on level up" frame for choosing effects, the 1800 between 2 & 3 is enough for 3 first level schema. That's 3 first level spells. Take magical training from PGtF so you can activate without rolling and you're not all that far behind the wizard before digging into your real wealth.

Fighter's harder to catch up to this low but you can get there eventually. Come level 8, a wand of divine power from real money eats the BAB difference and most of the HP difference while the virtual money can take care of all the normal gear costs.



I'd hazard that just the one instance of WBL with only adding on level up could get this to T4. Being able to change it on level up would put it at the top of T4 or might even break the T3 threshold. Being able to change several times per level (something like a class specific use of action points) would certainly make T3. Daily change gets to low T2, minimum, IMO.

Increasing the amount can move it past each of the tier thresholds in turn, even with no ability to change the expenditures later, but what the exact values that make those break-points are is mind bendingly difficult to say.