Swashbuckler optimization

[el minster]

Thinking of making a swashbuckler using a two level dip in champion of corellon and duelist maxed so something like
Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/X 1/Duelist1/Champion of Corellon 2/Duelist 9/X 2
any advice

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go with Deepwyrm Half-Drow as race. The Drow Fighter Racial Substitution Level gives access to Hit & Run Fighter ACF which gives you extra Dex dmg when your enemies are flat flooded.

Further I would exchange Champion of Corellon with Swordsage and go with the Shadow Blade feat (gives Dex to dmg with shadow hand weapons). With this setup you can make a Spiked Chain build to get all the extra ability modifiers.

Collar of Perpetual Attendance gives you an Unseen Servant at will. He will help you with deploying "marbles" on your enemies space. This causes them to become flat flooded if they don't have enough balance ranks (for hit & run fighter).

You could also go for a TWF build with short swords. This abuses the fact that your offhand attacks only get the 1/2 penalty for the Str modifier but the full modifiers for the other ability modifiers you'll be getting.

[gorfnab]

Anything in particular you're wanting to achieve with this build? Also what sources do you have available?

Also, here is a handbook that might have some useful stuff in it: A Swashbucklers' Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?399424-Paradoxes-of-Fighting-Defensively-A-Swashbucklers-Handbook)

Here is my usual recommendation for a Swashbuckler build.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

This build uses a number of the options mentioned in this handbook: A short guide to defensive fighting
(https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)
Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available, choose two and then grab the feats EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A Swordsage dip is probably a good idea for ECL 9 or later; one Shadow Hand maneuver + Assassin's Stance qualifies you for both Shadow Blade (Dex to damage in addition to Str to damage) and Daring Outlaw (gain Sneak Attack as if you were a Rogue of your Swashbuckler level).

An interesting trick, since you're also already going Duelist, is that Duelist also gives you Grace as a class feature. That means you can trade Swashbuckler's Grace for the Arcane Stunt ACF from Complete Mage to get a cool spell-like ability or two while still qualifying for Daring Outlaw. Of the options, my favorite is probably spider climb, which you can fluff as some awesome acrobatic stunts like you'd see in The Mask of Zoro.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Optimization" and "Duelist" are mutually exclusive.

Take Swordsage 2 with either of the feats Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius, and you'll be adding your entire Int bonus to your AC when wearing light armor. Either one of those feats can be gained prior to taking Swordsage.

Swordsage also allows you to get the feat Shadow Blade which allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str bonus, no need to spend 4+ feats on Champion of CL.

As others have said, if you get Swordsage 2 at 8th+ level you can get Assassin's Stance and also qualify for the feat Daring Outlaw, adding full Sneak Attack progression to your Swashbuckler levels as though they were Rogue levels.

[el minster]

Oh, forgot to mention DM doesn't allow ToB for flavor reasons otherwise would do swordsage

[Saintheart]

Swordsage also allows you to get the feat Shadow Blade which allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str bonus, no need to spend 4+ feats on Champion of CL.

There's no "instead of" in Shadow Blade. That's what makes it so awesome. It's just "add". You don't substitute, you just add it to whatever other bonuses you already have. Which means that potentially it's 2xDEX to damage by RAW on flatfooted targets if you have Hit and Run Fighter.

The Targetteer in Dragon 310 specifically has you substitute DEX for STR on damage, but that's another story.

[el minster]

And if you get Champion of Corellon does that go to 3x. Just curiousz

[Gruftzwerg]

And if you get Champion of Corellon does that go to 3x. Just curiousz

iirc there is no legal weapon for both Shadow Blade and Champion of Corellon Larethian. You have to take one or the other.

If you are interested into DEX stacking builds, have a look at my El Mariachi build. He stacks up to 2.5x Dex modifier for his dual double-hand-crossbows to annihilate anything in his path.

and btw:

Oh, forgot to mention DM doesn't allow ToB for flavor reasons otherwise would do swordsage

Imho the ****tiest reason to ban TOB in 3.5 ...
.. and sounds more like a cheap excuse for the blind assumption that TOB gives mundanes to much goodies.

I mean, I bet your DM won't hinder you from playing a "monk gish character build" (which is in direct comprehension most of the time the stronger one, compared to ToB options..), but a class from a book that favors this aspect is out of fluff.. sure ..^^

[el minster]

No the problem is we're playing in "africa" right now and he only lets you use ToB in asia.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

No the problem is we're playing in "africa" right now and he only lets you use ToB in asia.

No offense to your DM, but they really need to take a closer look at Tome of Battle. ToB has as much to do with Asia as the Players Handbook does. Less, even, because Monks are far more directly based on Eastern media than anything in the book of nine swords is.

[Gruftzwerg]

No offense to your DM, but they really need to take a closer look at Tome of Battle. ToB has as much to do with Asia as the Players Handbook does. Less, even, because Monks are far more directly based on Eastern media than anything in the book of nine swords is.

^this


.. and the fact that Africa has much more "mystical stuff" than most people associate with it at first glance.

Think about:

- shamanism (magic, alchemy)
- vodoo (dark magic, alchemy .. btw, did you know that part of our medical education is based on this?)
- animal themed tribes (monk like stuff. different fighting styles emerged from here)
- hashashins aka assassins (who made use of drugs & poisons)

... we could easily add more with some more careful thoughts about the topic.
Don't ignore all the beautiful things that are hidden somewhere in Africa. ^^

The point of view of the DM is as accurate as a picture book about Africa for kids. ;)

[Edea]

...Desert Wind is literally the Sahara, weaponized.

Tiger Claw is...the Congolian rainforest, weaponized.

Want to play an avatar of Anansi? Shadow Hand's a great place to start, particularly the stances.

In fact...now that I'm thinking about it, I'm having a hard time coming up with a more African-themed class than a Swordsage, lmao.

[Efrate]

Is there a reason for the swashbuckler class or do you just want a mobile combatant who focuses on lighter finesse weapons? If so look to scout. Pick up travel devotion and a level of cleric or something that gives turning, and go swift hunter. Ranger has a decent self buffing spell list, and favored enemy is not the worst thing in the world if toy just pick smart choices like evil outsiders and undead. You can trade out ranger features as you see fit and combat style will save you a fair few feats and prereqs.

[Troacctid]

What does your stat array look like? The biggest problem with swashbuckler is that it shuffles stats around without really doing much else. You use Dex to attack and Int for damage and congrats, instead of having one ability score for both, you've made yourself MAD. That's all your class features for your first three levels: making yourself MAD (and tanking your damage against crit-immune enemies while you're at it).

You're almost always better off with rogue or fighter or a multiclass of the two, even if you don't have access to ToB for warblade. Rogue gets sneak attack and more skill points, so it has better damage and utility than swashbuckler all around—or, alternatively, you can trade sneak attack for fighter bonus feats and get your Weapon Finesse that way while also picking up TWF, Combat Panache, and so on. Meanwhile, the fighter's Weapon Specialization is often just a better version of the swashbuckler's Insightful Strike.

[el minster]

32 point buy
And I like the Int synergy with duelist

[Troacctid]

32 point buy
Oof, yeah, that's not ideal. Maybe something like 14 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 10 Cha? It would be a lot easier to forget about Int, play a fighter, and just put a bunch of points in Strength, though.

Duelist isn't ideal with swashbuckler because swashbucklers very badly want to use Two-Weapon Fighting in order to take advantage of Insightful Strike, but that turns off the duelist's Precise Strike. Meanwhile, you need at least +5 Int and 5 levels of duelist before the unarmored AC becomes better than wearing basic, nonmagical light armor, and you won't have anywhere near that without 32 point buy. I'm not sure what synergy you're seeing, but I would strongly advise against combining duelist with swashbuckler; it's not a combo.