Medium Centaur

[Dmdork]

Ravnica. Centaur. Weight 600lbs x2d12? How does that make sense for a medium sized creature?

[DevilMcam]

It doesn't but a large PC would be way too OP

[Jerrykhor]

It doesn't but a large PC would be way too OP

I have not seen any evidence of such thing.

[Hytheter]

It doesn't but a large PC would be way too OP

Would it really though? So you could grapple huge creatures and have trouble getting through doors. Big whoop.

[DeTess]

I have not seen any evidence of such thing.

large sized creatures can use large sized weapons. Large sized weapons have double the damage dice, as per dmg 278. I think that's plenty OP.

[DevilMcam]

Larger weapon use larger dices your "threatened" area goes from 8 to 12 square (from 20 to 32 if using a reach weapon).

Grappling huge creature IS a HUGE deal. This let you control dragons through legendary resistance.
Get enlarged and you can grapple the friggin tarasque with 95% chance succes if you have expertise.

[Dr paradox]

Centaurs are an interesting edge case in the size mechanics, because while they are physically large, their ability to grapple and wield weapons shouldn't be any different from a mounted human. I can think of all kinds of "at the table" rulings I would make, but it's hard to codify into something simple enough for RAW, if they were to errata it.

[DevilMcam]

At a home table this may not be an issue (to be discusses with DM).
But for AL or the like that's too much of a hassle

[Joe the Rat]

If you look at the MM statblock, centaurs are using medium-sized weaponry based on reach and damage. It would not be hard to include this in the racial block, probably under size. Something about human-sized torsos and using human-sized (or medium-sized) weapons and equipment.

Likewise, it wouldn't have been hard to do dual-typing for creature type, to avoid the whole "centaur PCs are immune to hold person" business.

As a note, the 600lbs is about the size of the Mongolian Horse breeds - a centaur based on that would actually be about Medium creature height... and a bit longer bodywise.

[Eriol]

Ravnica. Centaur. Weight 600lbs x2d12? How does that make sense for a medium sized creature?
Just FYI, there's an issue with my (and probably most/all) printings of Ravnica in the formula given for weight of PCs.

It SAYS this quite explicitly:

Weight = (Base Weight + Height Modifier in pounds) x Weight Modifier
But the PHB rules say this (extrapolating from the text and example) :

Weight = Base Weight + (Height Modifier in pounds x Weight Modifier)
For a centaur here's a toy example with average numbers

Ravnica Error'd weight = (600 (base) + 6 (d10 average)) x 13 (2d12 average) = 7878 lbs, or just shy of 4 tons
PHB Weight = 600 (base) + (6 (d10 average) x 13 (2d12 average) = 600 + 78 = 678 lbs, or a bit over a quarter ton

For reference, a Ford F-150 Truck weighs about (there's a range) 2 metric tonnes or about 4400 lbs. I don't think a centaur is meant to out-weigh a truck by nearly double.

That's part of the error here.

PHB calculation (with an example) is on page 121, Ravnica stuff is on page 12 of that book.

[Dr. Cliché]

If you look at the MM statblock, centaurs are using medium-sized weaponry based on reach and damage. It would not be hard to include this in the racial block, probably under size. Something about human-sized torsos and using human-sized (or medium-sized) weapons and equipment.

Likewise, it wouldn't have been hard to do dual-typing for creature type, to avoid the whole "centaur PCs are immune to hold person" business.

This.

Having centaurs as Medium is just plain nonsensical. They already have rules for some races to allow them to use larger than normal weapons, why would it have been a problem to do this in reverse for a centaur?

[Lunali]

While they should probably be a 2x1 or 2x2 on a grid, they would only be able to effectively threaten enemies from a single square unless they were using unarmed attacks. Other than that I can't think of anything that large creatures get that centaurs should get.

[Dr. Cliché]

While they should probably be a 2x1 or 2x2 on a grid, they would only be able to effectively threaten enemies from a single square unless they were using unarmed attacks. Other than that I can't think of anything that large creatures get that centaurs should get.

To my mind it seems something that's less about combat mechanics and more about how centaurs interact with spaces - particularly low or narrow spaces.

[Lunali]

To my mind it seems something that's less about combat mechanics and more about how centaurs interact with spaces - particularly low or narrow spaces.

Other than in combat, that's more the realm of the DM anyway, their rough dimensions are given so it's up to the DM whether they can fit through a space. Those concerns also apply to goliaths and anyone else that's particularly large for a medium creature.

In combat, advantage on attacks against them and disadvantage on dex saves might be appropriate if they're in a 5ft wide passage, but their movement speed and attack ability shouldn't be affected.

[Dr. Cliché]

Other than in combat, that's more the realm of the DM anyway, their rough dimensions are given so it's up to the DM whether they can fit through a space.

Except that this is determined by whether a creature is Small, Medium, Large etc. - not its precise dimensions.

Maybe a DM will rule otherwise, but the fact that a horse-bodied creature is the size of a horse really doesn't seem like the sort of thing a DM should have to house-rule. :smalltongue:




In combat, advantage on attacks against them and disadvantage on dex saves might be appropriate if they're in a 5ft wide passage, but their movement speed and attack ability shouldn't be affected.

i don't know, I would think the biggest issue with a Centaur in a 5ft space would be if they wanted to turn round.

Hope they have a reverse gear. :smallbiggrin:

[Lunali]

Except that this is determined by whether a creature is Small, Medium, Large etc. - not its precise dimensions.

Maybe a DM will rule otherwise, but the fact that a horse-bodied creature is the size of a horse really doesn't seem like the sort of thing a DM should have to house-rule. :smalltongue:

Citation needed. AFAIK there aren't really rules for fitting through areas, (other than the squeezing rules for combat) the DM creates the world and decides the limitations.


i don't know, I would think the biggest issue with a Centaur in a 5ft space would be if they wanted to turn round.

Hope they have a reverse gear. :smallbiggrin:

Could be an issue, but even if they were a large creature in a 5ft corridor it wouldn't fix that.

[Yora]

Since centaur arms are human sized, centaur weapons would have to be as well.

Otherwise a human sitting on a horse would also be able to use giant weapons, which is of course nonsensical.

[JackPhoenix]

Maybe a DM will rule otherwise, but the fact that a horse-bodied creature is the size of a horse really doesn't seem like the sort of thing a DM should have to house-rule. :smalltongue:

See, that's a common mistake. Playable centaurs aren't half-man, half-horse, but half-man, half-donkey. Half-ass-ed, if you will.

[Millstone85]

Maybe a DM will rule otherwise, but the fact that a horse-bodied creature is the size of a horse really doesn't seem like the sort of thing a DM should have to house-rule. :smalltongue:
See, that's a common mistake. Playable centaurs aren't half-man, half-horse, but half-man, half-donkey. Half-ass-ed, if you will.Good pun. But I would say in all seriousness that they are half-pony.
Centaurs have the upper bodies, down to the waist, of muscular humans
Below the waist, they have the bodies of small horses
they are smaller than a human rider mounted on a horse
Centaurs stand between 6 and 7 feet tall, with their equine bodies reaching about 4 feet at the withers. In other words, they stand as tall as a tall human, with their human waist and horse withers at the same heigh where the waist of a tall human would be.

[Dr. Cliché]

Citation needed. AFAIK there aren't really rules for fitting through areas, (other than the squeezing rules for combat) the DM creates the world and decides the limitations.

p192 of the PHB ("squeezing into a smaller space").



Could be an issue, but even if they were a large creature in a 5ft corridor it wouldn't fix that.

I mean, it kinda would.



See, that's a common mistake. Playable centaurs aren't half-man, half-horse, but half-man, half-donkey. Half-ass-ed, if you will.


Good pun. But I would say in all seriousness that they are half-pony. In other words, they stand as tall as a tall human, with their human waist and horse withers at the same heigh where the waist of a tall human would be.

Yeah, no. Sorry.

This is quite obviously something the designers pulled out of their rear ends in a feeble attempt to justify centaurs not being large.

I mean, do I need to point out that Centaurs in the MM are Large, not Medium? Moreover, can anyone show me some art of these half-donkey or half-ass creatures? Because all the art I've seen of them is quite clearly depicting creatures that are half-horse, not half-donkey.

[Rynjin]

If you look at the MM statblock, centaurs are using medium-sized weaponry based on reach and damage. It would not be hard to include this in the racial block, probably under size. Something about human-sized torsos and using human-sized (or medium-sized) weapons and equipment.

This is exactly how they're statted in previous editions; Large creatures with this quality:


Undersized Weapons (Ex)
Although a centaur is Large, its upper torso is the same size as that of a Medium humanoid. As a result, they wield weapons as if they were one size category smaller than their actual size (Medium for most centaurs).

And statted as being without Reach, as they are a Large (long) type rather than Large (tall) monsters, like Giants.

Why they would leave this out of the new edition is confusing to me.

[Greywander]

So here's the thing about centaurs.

MM centaurs are (IIRC) Large monstrosities.

Ravnica centaurs are Medium fey. Ravnica centaurs are also more pony-sized that full horse-sized.

A few Large PC races have appeared in UA, but there does seem to be a general design constraint restricting PC races to Medium or Small; no Tiny, and no Large or larger. Perhaps this is because of the added complexity of PCs taking up different sizes on the battle grid, or maybe it has to do with grappling rules, where an Enlarged Large PC would become Huge, and thus able to grapple everything.

Centaurs do strike me as a weird exception to the normal size rules. Horses are already listed as Large (in order to make them mountable for Medium sized creatures), and centaurs would certainly stand taller, if not longer. So one would think a centaur should be Large. However, centaurs in almost all depictions feature a normal sized human torso, so they should really count as Medium sized for the purposes of what weapons they can wield, and possible for what size of targets they can grapple. So you end up with a weird split where they should be Large for some things but Medium for others.

I can see why they decided to just make them Medium, I think it creates fewer headaches than just making them Large. You could add some racial trait that more or less says that they count as one size for some things, but a different size for others, but that's getting into the realm of being too complex.

[Millstone85]

This is quite obviously something the designers pulled out of their rear ends in a feeble attempt to justify centaurs not being large.

I mean, do I need to point out that Centaurs in the MM are Large, not Medium?
MM centaurs are (IIRC) Large monstrosities.

Ravnica centaurs are Medium fey.That does seem to be how WotC tried to reconciliate GGtR with the MM.
These traits are also suitable for the centaurs of other worlds where there are centaurs of fey origin. These centaurs are smaller than the non-fey centaurs that roam in some realms. Of course, having a playable race that doesn't count as humanoid is a problem all its own.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Larger weapon use larger dices your "threatened" area goes from 8 to 12 square (from 20 to 32 if using a reach weapon).

Grappling huge creature IS a HUGE deal. This let you control dragons through legendary resistance.
Get enlarged and you can grapple the friggin tarasque with 95% chance succes if you have expertise.

A minor point but, you can already stop a dragon from moving away without worrying about its legendary resistance. Sentinel will stop them in their tracks, and a beastmaster ranger with a Giant Crab pet can easily grapple a dragon or a tarrasque. It isn't like not being able to stop a giant creature from moving is the one single thing keeping game balance in check.

And one thing to keep in mind is that while your "threatened" area increases, so too does the area you can be attacked from, which can be extremely bad in situations with high numbers of enemies. Increasing your threatened area doesn't really even matter that much on its own as there are already various abilities that let you increase your threatened area anyway, or even give you multiple threat ranges that you can pick between (if you dual-wield a whip and sword, for example).

[Jerrykhor]

large sized creatures can use large sized weapons. Large sized weapons have double the damage dice, as per dmg 278. I think that's plenty OP.

I dont think that's for PCs. Otherwise, the Enlarge spell would be pretty rad.

[pothocboots]

Something I put in the survey when the UA for the centaur came around for the first time:

Tauric Build: While Centaurs are large creatures they have a medium sized torso, and as such are treated as medium creatures for all offensive actions, including grappling and what sized weapons they can wield. They are treated as large for defensive actions, such as resisting a grapple or a shove.

[Greywander]

Something I put in the survey when the UA for the centaur came around for the first time:

Tauric Build: While Centaurs are large creatures they have a medium sized torso, and as such are treated as medium creatures for all offensive actions, including grappling and what sized weapons they can wield. They are treated as large for defensive actions, such as resisting a grapple or a shove.
Yeah, what I'd probably do is make them Large, but add a trait where they count as Medium for wielding weapons and for initiating grapples. Being grappled, they still count as Large. Carry weight, grid size, mount rules, etc. all count as Large. It's sort of a reverse of Powerful Build, where, instead of taking a Medium creature and giving them one trait of a Large creature, you take a Large creature and give them one (or two) trait(s) of a Medium creature.

[Zhorn]

Moreover, can anyone show me some art of these half-donkey or half-ass creatures? Because all the art I've seen of them is quite clearly depicting creatures that are half-horse, not half-donkey.
I know you really meant official WoTC art, but since that wasn't explicitly stated... BEHOLD!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tfsatthetable/images/e/e5/Eloy.png/revision/latest?cb=20171117012446