To be surprised or not to be...

[MercCpt]

Hello all I have a small issue with the surprise condition and the alert feat.

Example - You have a Vhuman 20th lvl assassin Rogue that has sharpshooter, Boots of elven kind, Cloak of Elvenkind and you chug a potion of invs before attacking then you attack an enemy that just happens to be a 3rd level monk Vhuman with the alert feat not only can't you get your surpise round but they can totally catch it and throw it back at you.

My point in all this is when does surprise actually gains you just that surprise it seems silly that with just one feat nope I can sense your blood lust or I can just know when i'm being attacked.


Note: Do not take my example to heart or flip out for probably something I've missed, feel free to give me your input!

[heavyfuel]

Welcome to 5e, where the Surprise rules make no sense whatsoever, the Assassin is garbage as a consequence, and half the people seem to have no problem with it.

Note that even if the Lv 3 Monk lacks the Alert feat, he can still avoid Surprise just by winning the initiative. Anyone can do that. Random kobold in the dungeon can completely negate your Assassination attempt because you rolled a 19 on your initiative but it rolled a 21

[MercCpt]

Welcome to 5e, where the Surprise rules make no sense whatsoever, the Assassin is garbage as a consequence, and half the people seem to have no problem with it.

Note that even if the Lv 3 Monk lacks the Alert feat, he can still avoid Surprise just by winning the initiative. Anyone can do that. Random kobold in the dungeon can completely negate your Assassination attempt because you rolled a 19 on your initiative but it rolled a 21

Wait I thought that even IF they rolled initiative they can't take actions when surprised, so even if they beat your initiative they can't DO anything, however with they alert feat if they beat your score they CAN do something NO matter what they can prepare but they can't know they are going to be attacked in my example above so exactly how can they prepare for something they can NOT physically see or sense, it to me makes more sense to give the surprise at that point but idk my opinion ig.


Surprise

A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.

[Abracadangit]

Hello all I have a small issue with the surprise condition and the alert feat.

Example - You have a Vhuman 20th lvl assassin Rogue that has sharpshooter, Boots of elven kind, Cloak of Elvenkind and you chug a potion of invs before attacking then you attack an enemy that just happens to be a 3rd level monk Vhuman with the alert feat not only can't you get your surpise round but they can totally catch it and throw it back at you.

My point in all this is when does surprise actually gains you just that surprise it seems silly that with just one feat nope I can sense your blood lust or I can just know when i'm being attacked.


Note: Do not take my example to heart or flip out for probably something I've missed, feel free to give me your input!


Yeah, you're correct by RAW, and I can definitely see how that feels silly. But here's three things to consider:

1) The surprise immunity granted by the Alert feat only works while the player is conscious. If Mr. Awesome Assassin is so good at his job, he might see the monk's ears twitching whenever he approaches and lay low for a while until it's the monk's turn to sleep, and then he can make his move.

2) This is all very timely since I'm playing a monk with the Alert feat right now, and I can tell you that in this long WotC-published campaign we've been playing, I've gotten to use that feature exactly zero times. The other-creatures-not-getting-advantage-for-being-unseen thing has also come in handy exactly zero times. So yeah, in this particular match-up with the level 20 Assassin, it feels weirdly overpowered and unfair, but bear in mind that the benefits of the Alert feat are highly circumstantial and likely to never come up in a campaign anyway. So when it DOES happen, it's a nice little bonus and a fun character moment for the player that took the feat.

3) Not being surprised isn't the same thing as making your Perception check to notice the unseen attacker. In your example, you might ask all your players to make a Perception check as they should, and maybe nobody makes it. Your master assassin attacks from afar, and even though the monk isn't surprised, they also haven't seen where the assassin is attacking from, thus severely limiting their counterattack options when it's their turn.


Welcome to 5e, where the Surprise rules make no sense whatsoever, the Assassin is garbage as a consequence, and half the people seem to have no problem with it.

Note that even if the Lv 3 Monk lacks the Alert feat, he can still avoid Surprise just by winning the initiative. Anyone can do that. Random kobold in the dungeon can completely negate your Assassination attempt because you rolled a 19 on your initiative but it rolled a 21

My understanding is that initiative and surprise are independent of each other - if you failed to beat the opponent's Stealth with your Perception, you're still frozen in "surprised" status when it's your turn during the first round, and then on the second round you're part of the action. If you're referring to the first benefit of the Assassin's Assassinate feature, then yes, rolling higher on initiative negates it, but the surprise would still be effective.

And yes, I 100% agree that the Assassin needs to be redone. Needs to be its own bloody class, if you ask me. How can one of the most enduring, iconic archetypes in fantasy literature NOT GET ITS OWN CLASS. It's downright bizarre.

[heavyfuel]

Wait I thought that even IF they rolled initiative they can't take actions when surprised, so even if they beat your initiative they can't DO anything, however with they alert feat if they beat your score they CAN do something NO matter what they can prepare but they can't know they are going to be attacked in my example above so exactly how can they prepare for something they can NOT physically see or sense, it to me makes more sense to give the surprise at that point but idk my opinion ig.


My understanding is that initiative and surprise are independent of each other - if you failed to beat the opponent's Stealth with your Perception, you're still frozen in "surprised" status when it's your turn during the first round, and then on the second round you're part of the action. If you're referring to the first benefit of the Assassin's Assassinate feature, then yes, rolling higher on initiative negates it, but the surprise would still be effective.

And yes, I 100% agree that the Assassin needs to be redone. Needs to be its own bloody class, if you ask me. How can one of the most enduring, iconic archetypes in fantasy literature NOT GET ITS OWN CLASS. It's downright bizarre.

You are both correct, however, after they spend their first round "frozen" in surprise, they no longer have the "Surprised" condition, which means three things:

1 - Assassinate no longer works since the target needs to have the Surprised condition;
2 - The target can use its Reaction (if it has one) to disrupt the blow;
3 - Even if they don't have a Reaction, they can now talk through "brief utterances", which certainly includes stuff like "Help!", "Assassin!!", or "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!"

[Abracadangit]

You are both correct, however, after they spend their first round "frozen" in surprise, they no longer have the "Surprised" condition, which means three things:

1 - Assassinate no longer works since the target needs to have the Surprised condition;
2 - The target can use its Reaction (if it has one) to disrupt the blow;
3 - Even if they don't have a Reaction, they can now talk through "brief utterances", which certainly includes stuff like "Help!", "Assassin!!", or "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!"

It's interesting, upon further rereading of the Assassinate feature, the wording is "You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet." Does sitting still through your surprise round constitute "taking a turn" or not...? I imagine that's up to DM discretion, but I could see arguments making sense either way. But yes, the second benefit of Assassinate (as well as a high-level assassin's Death Strike) would no longer function after surprise wears off, which certainly takes the edge off of the assassin's blade.

You also bring up another point that I wasn't aware of until now: that a surprised character can begin using reactions the moment their surprised turn is over. So if they happen to roll really high on initiative, even though their action is still disabled, they could still use a reaction in that first round provided they have one that can respond to the attack. I always assumed it worked more like a monk's stun, in that there's no reactions until one full round elapses, but that's not actually how it works.

[KOLE]

Even if they don't have a Reaction, they can now talk through "brief utterances", which certainly includes stuff like "Help!", "Assassin!!", or "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!"
I laughed way too hard at this. Can I sig this?

[heavyfuel]

I laughed way too hard at this. Can I sig this?

Of course you can, I'd be honored :smallsmile:

[Rara1212]

Hello all I have a small issue with the surprise condition and the alert feat.

Example - You have a Vhuman 20th lvl assassin Rogue that has sharpshooter, Boots of elven kind, Cloak of Elvenkind and you chug a potion of invs before attacking then you attack an enemy that just happens to be a 3rd level monk Vhuman with the alert feat not only can't you get your surpise round but they can totally catch it and throw it back at you.

My point in all this is when does surprise actually gains you just that surprise it seems silly that with just one feat nope I can sense your blood lust or I can just know when i'm being attacked.


Note: Do not take my example to heart or flip out for probably something I've missed, feel free to give me your input!

Was about to point out that a 3rd level monk never could negate the entire damage of a lvl 20 rogue sneak attack, since they reduce the damage by 1d10+dex + monk level. Then I realized that the Alert feat would negate your advantage, so no sneakattack. Tho while writing this I realized one again that it could work, if the assassin went first due to their 3rd level feature. On the other hand Alert also gives the Monk a boost to ini.
All in all, yeah, alert is pretty good if enemies rely on sneaking, being hidden, or acting first in combat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello all I have a small issue with the surprise condition and the alert feat.

Example - You have a Vhuman 20th lvl assassin Rogue that has sharpshooter, Boots of elven kind, Cloak of Elvenkind and you chug a potion of invs before attacking then you attack an enemy that just happens to be a 3rd level monk Vhuman with the alert feat not only can't you get your surpise round but they can totally catch it and throw it back at you.
1. Why are you attacking a member of your party? NPC's don't have feats (technically, but a DM can do that).

2. Yes, Alert is that good of a feat. No Surprise.

[heavyfuel]

1. Why are you attacking a member of your party? NPC's don't have feats (technically, but a DM can do that).

Why do you assume a lv 20 Rogue is in the same party as a lv 3 Monk who was also specified to be an enemy lol

Is it not a far far more reasonable assumption that the DM simply decided that this NPC would have a class?

[Man_Over_Game]

Could just change it to:

When Surprised, you may move and use your Reaction or Bonus Action during the first round of combat.

[Sorinth]

You are both correct, however, after they spend their first round "frozen" in surprise, they no longer have the "Surprised" condition, which means three things:

1 - Assassinate no longer works since the target needs to have the Surprised condition;
2 - The target can use its Reaction (if it has one) to disrupt the blow;
3 - Even if they don't have a Reaction, they can now talk through "brief utterances", which certainly includes stuff like "Help!", "Assassin!!", or "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!"

Technically it's ambiguous when you stop being surprised.


If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends.

It doesn't actually say you are no longer considered surprised when your turn ends, only that you can now take reactions.

So there's a RAW interpretation that says you are still considered surprised for things like Assasinate for the whole round.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why do you assume a lv 20 Rogue is in the same party as a lv 3 Monk who was also specified to be an enemy lol
Because PC's have levels, NPCs do not, they have CR. :smallwink: That is why.

[MaxWilson]

Because PC's have levels, NPCs do not, they have CR. :smallwink: That is why.

And that's why NPC-only classes like the Oathbreaker exist, so that nobody can take them. ;-)

[heavyfuel]

Technically it's ambiguous when you stop being surprised.

It doesn't actually say you are no longer considered surprised when your turn ends, only that you can now take reactions.

So there's a RAW interpretation that says you are still considered surprised for things like Assasinate for the whole round.

Hmmm, that's a very interesting interpretation. When I get my books back home I'll have to check it out, but it does seem to solve the Surprise and universal sixth sense problem


And that's why NPC-only classes like the Oathbreaker exist, so that nobody can take them. ;-)

Hahahahahahahaha :smallbiggrin:

It's funny how some people think only PCs should ever get levels/features. Makes me worder if NPC also have race in their game or if every single Guard/Mage/Cultist has the same stats regardless of it.

Sidebar: Is Oathbreaker really NPC only? I'm AFB, but I never noticed that.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmmm, that's a very interesting interpretation. When I get my books back home I'll have to check it out, but it does seem to solve the Surprise and universal sixth sense problem



Hahahahahahahaha :smallbiggrin:

It's funny how some people think only PCs should ever get levels/features. Makes me worder if NPC also have race in their game or if every single Guard/Mage/Cultist has the same stats regardless of it.

Sidebar: Is Oathbreaker really NPC only? I'm AFB, but I never noticed that.

It gives the Death Cleric and Oathbringer as villainous options to create a NPC...using PC rules? It's weird.

The only thing it notes for player use is "A player can choose one of these options with the your approval."


Thinking about it, you may be allowed to use the PHB and the DMG as your +1 in Adventure League games to legitimately play an Oathbreaker or Death Cleric. Not 100% sure though.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes, Alert is that good of a feat. No Surprise.

I see what you did there.

[Tanarii]

Technically it's ambiguous when you stop being surprised.



It doesn't actually say you are no longer considered surprised when your turn ends, only that you can now take reactions.

So there's a RAW interpretation that says you are still considered surprised for things like Assasinate for the whole round.
Rounds don't exist outside of the cyclical nature of initiative.

If you don't take the end of the first turn statement as meaning you're no longer surprised, then it lasts all of combat. There is no other statement that can be taken as to how long it lasts.

[sithlordnergal]

It gives the Death Cleric and Oathbringer as villainous options to create a NPC...using PC rules? It's weird.

The only thing it notes for player use is "A player can choose one of these options with the your approval."


Thinking about it, you may be allowed to use the PHB and the DMG as your +1 in Adventure League games to legitimately play an Oathbreaker or Death Cleric. Not 100% sure though.


Ehhh, you can, but there's a great, big BUT in front of that. You can only take that class if it a special reward for DMG Quests, which are basically milestones for DM's to complete that grant them rewards. That way they are given something for running instead of just playing. Usually Oathbreaker and Death Cleric are locked behind crazy requirements like "Run the entire Hardcover and every single Module for this season". So you have like...half a year to do each and every module printed during the season, followed by going through all of that season's book. Or maybe its just one whole year now.

[sithlordnergal]

There's a reason why I dislike Surprise as a condition that goes away at the end of your turn. Its not even Alert that I have an issue with, its just the rules in general that are the problem. You end up sequence breaking a ton with things like:

- Player X, Y, Z all plan an ambush, they get surprise on target A.

- Player X is a Wizard and wants to start things off with Hold Person, so they start to cast their spell.

-You roll initiative, Player X goes second to last, after Target A and players Y and Z

- So now, before Player X can even get the spell off that caused initiative to be rolled, the Rogue fires a shot, the Fighter does their's, and the enemy can now react, counterspelling their Hold Person.

And all of that happens, despite Player X being the one to start everything off.


I personally homebrew it as a Surprise Round, not a condition, and the one who caused Initiative to be rolled goes first in the combat. There are still problems with it, but it makes far more sense then saying "Ohhh, that goblin over there has a 6th sense and knows they're being watched". And considering how hard pulling off an ambush is already in 5e, given that all the members of the group have to roll a high enough Stealth to not be noticed, I'm perfectly fine with there being a buff.

[elyktsorb]

And yes, I 100% agree that the Assassin needs to be redone. Needs to be its own bloody class, if you ask me. How can one of the most enduring, iconic archetypes in fantasy literature NOT GET ITS OWN CLASS. It's downright bizarre.

I'm still convinced no one has ever used the Assassin's 9th lvl ability in the history of 5th edition.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm still convinced no one has ever used the Assassin's 9th lvl ability in the history of 5th edition.

I mean, you're absolutely right...Not when magic and Bards exist. Why bother spending that much effort when you can have a Bard charm/deceive them, or worse a Swashbuckler Rogue charm them. I mean, it looks like it would only be useful if you're planning to go undercover for an extremely long time, as in a few weeks. But even then...Bard's and Wizards can have that covered. I also have never met a player with enough patience to do that sort of undercover work. If a player needs information from X person, their first instinct will probably be "Lets break in, interrogate them, and take any documents we find/need".

[Sorinth]

Rounds don't exist outside of the cyclical nature of initiative.

If you don't take the end of the first turn statement as meaning you're no longer surprised, then it lasts all of combat. There is no other statement that can be taken as to how long it lasts.

That's kind of my point, it's ambiguous because it never actually says when it ends.

You could just as easily read it and come away thinking you are considered surprised for the whole combat but being surprised only has an impact during that first round (Excepting Assassin).

[Sorinth]

There's a reason why I dislike Surprise as a condition that goes away at the end of your turn. Its not even Alert that I have an issue with, its just the rules in general that are the problem. You end up sequence breaking a ton with things like:

- Player X, Y, Z all plan an ambush, they get surprise on target A.

- Player X is a Wizard and wants to start things off with Hold Person, so they start to cast their spell.

-You roll initiative, Player X goes second to last, after Target A and players Y and Z

- So now, before Player X can even get the spell off that caused initiative to be rolled, the Rogue fires a shot, the Fighter does their's, and the enemy can now react, counterspelling their Hold Person.

And all of that happens, despite Player X being the one to start everything off.


I personally homebrew it as a Surprise Round, not a condition, and the one who caused Initiative to be rolled goes first in the combat. There are still problems with it, but it makes far more sense then saying "Ohhh, that goblin over there has a 6th sense and knows they're being watched". And considering how hard pulling off an ambush is already in 5e, given that all the members of the group have to roll a high enough Stealth to not be noticed, I'm perfectly fine with there being a buff.

It can make sense if you consider that everything is happening simultaneously. So the encounter starts off with the Wizard starting to chant his arcane words, and everything you describe happens between the wizard starting and finishing the vocal/somatic requirements.