How do you play blinded characters?

[Emongnome777]

We’ve been hit with a couple of sleet storm spells during our current campaign which make all inside effectively blinded. If you use a battle map, how do you adjudicate how characters can move or how much they “remember” before the area was heavily obscured? Can they move 30’ to a point and attack a square where an enemy was before the spell was cast? I end up asking stuff like, “do I recall where the door to the next room was?” or “can I walk to where that necromancer was last?”

Any tips or tricks for how you play this out?

[MThurston]

As long as you can hear you know where people are. Not knowing a trap or hole is in the ground is another thing.

You are also at disadvantage on attacks. Spells that require sight can not be used.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Stuff that didn't move should still be there, you should know the location of anyone who didn't roll stealth and beat your PP.

And you can't use stuff that requires sight.


As long as you can hear you know where people are. Not knowing a trap or hole is in the ground is another thing.

You are also at disadvantage on attacks. Spells that require sight can not be used.

You are only at disadvantage on attacks if the target is able to see you.
Advantage and disadvantage do cancel eachother.

[MThurston]

Stuff that didn't move should still be there, you should know the location of anyone who didn't roll stealth and beat your PP.

And you can't use stuff that requires sight.



You are only at disadvantage on attacks if the target is able to see you.
Advantage and disadvantage do cancel eachother.


Blinded
A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.

Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have disadvantage.

Now if both targets are blinded then both attack each other at disadvantage.

An example of this would be two people in magical darkness with no way to see eachother.

It does not limit anything else.

I know it sucks but you could have two blinded enemies flank you on their move action and get straight up rolls while you are at disadvantage to swing back.

I dont think the rules cover finding people in darkness.

I warlock in darkness can see everything around them with devils sight. A cleric with thunderwave could just walk in and nail them even though they are blinded when they walk into the darkness.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Blinded
A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.

Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have disadvantage.

Now if both targets are blinded then both attack each other at disadvantage.

An example of this would be two people in magical darkness with no way to see eachother.

It does not limit anything else.

I know it sucks but you could have two blinded enemies flank you on their move action and get straight up rolls while you are at disadvantage to swing back.

I dont think the rules cover finding people in darkness.

I warlock in darkness can see everything around them with devils sight. A cleric with thunderwave could just walk in and nail them even though they are blinded when they walk into the darkness.

If both blinded the attacker have disadvantage from the blind condition, he should attack with advantage because his target have the blind condition.


If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.

To be hidden you need to use the hide action and roll about the PP of someone else.
Hidden is not only sight related, you still have ears and the some races/creatures have a strong smelling sense(Loxsod for example).
You may fail automatically if you try to see him but not if you try to hear him.

If you are not stealthy your location is known because you need to succeed in stealth for your location to be unknown.

Stealth
Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.


Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this section.


Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.

When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

[MThurston]

@Blood

If BAB are all blinded then for melee attacks Bs are straight up and A is attacking at disadvantage.

If AB then both have disadvantage if both blinded.

If AB and A Thunderwaves then B is hit and makes a save.


The rule clearly says that if the other person can see then they have Advantage on Strikes.

It also says very clearly that attacks by blinded people are at disadvantage.

You can not stack advantage and disadvantage so if flanked then they cancel each other out for the attackers.

[chando]

on the subject of becoming blinded or visually impared by a spell, you could rule that those who fail the initial save got desoriented as you fall/take dmg/etc, but that doens work for something like obsc mist. usually if something blocks line of sight and you have to move to bypass, thats its own control of the spell/ability...

Another take, make a simple check in secret when they try to move somehere where they dont see, like a Dex check, dc 10 maybe, and if they fail they go off the mist in the wrong square, take a unexpected OA... but that does add more rolling, you might just decide to do it from time to time when its important/entretaining/most fun for all ;)

[Keravath]

Some misinformation to correct (at least RAW).

If a creature is blinded then it can't see.

If you can't see your opponent then you have disadvantage to attack them.

If your opponent can't see you then you have advantage to attack them.

If BOTH you and your opponent are blinded then you have disadvantage because you can't see them AND you have advantage because they can't see you. Advantage and Disadvantage cancel resulting in a straight roll if both attacker and defender are blinded.

This goes for any effect that obscures vision - magical darkness, fog cloud etc

If you have two blinded creatures attacking each other then there is neither advantage nor disadvantage.

"BLINDED
- A blinded creature can't sec and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
- Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage."

If both creatures are blinded - advantage and disadvantage cancel.

PHB 173
"If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage."

PHB 194/195
"UNSEEN ATTACKERS AND TARGETS
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding. casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

RAW, as long as you still have senses like hearing available, you know where the opponents are even if you can't see them, unless they successfully take the hide action. The DM can also rule that the circumstances make it impossible to see or hear your target (e.g. fog cloud cast at the base of a waterfall so that it is impossible to hear or see the target) in which case the target can be automatically hidden without making a hide check. Hidden means both unseen and unheard.

------

To the OP ... as long as the players can still hear, they know where the opponents are. If opponents take the hide action then their location may not be known. However, as cited above, if the creature attacks then their location is revealed even if they can't be seen or heard.

This does mean that characters can move around obstacles and make attacks relatively unaffected since if both attacker and defender are blinded then the blindness has no effect on the attack rolls. However, blindness (or heavily obscured terrain) does prevent the use of spells that require the caster to see the target. Of course the characters can't see any traps or holes in the ground so if they want to start checking their footing the DM could decide that it will treated as difficult terrain or something similar.

[Man_Over_Game]

We’ve been hit with a couple of sleet storm spells during our current campaign which make all inside effectively blinded. If you use a battle map, how do you adjudicate how characters can move or how much they “remember” before the area was heavily obscured? Can they move 30’ to a point and attack a square where an enemy was before the spell was cast? I end up asking stuff like, “do I recall where the door to the next room was?” or “can I walk to where that necromancer was last?”

Any tips or tricks for how you play this out?

For simplicity's sake, I just make it so that you know the position of things when those things last took an action, and you generally trip into the environment when moving more than 10 feet and something in the environment is different than your last position (like a wall or Difficult Terrain), generally a DC 10 to avoid going prone and reveal where you are.

So badguy shoots at you, you know where he last was. Badguy trips into something, you know where that happened.

This puts a lot of value on mobility, while also punishing you for being too mobile.



Lastly, ranged attacks while blind are made with Disadvantage, period. This not only makes melee combat a little bit better (when range usually is), but it puts even more value on mobility (as ranged attackers hardly need to move at all).


Combined, this makes blind-fighting exactly what it should be: A chaotic game of Marco Polo that starts with panic and ends with murder.

[Keravath]

@Blood

If BAB are all blinded then for melee attacks Bs are straight up and A is attacking at disadvantage.

If AB then both have disadvantage if both blinded.

If AB and A Thunderwaves then B is hit and makes a save.


The rule clearly says that if the other person can see then they have Advantage on Strikes.

It also says very clearly that attacks by blinded people are at disadvantage.

You can not stack advantage and disadvantage so if flanked then they cancel each other out for the attackers.

If both the attacker and defender are blinded then both have disadvantage because they can't see their opponent AND they have advantage because their opponent can't see them. This means that in the AB case ... both of the creatures have neither advantage nor disadvantage and roll a single d20.

In addition, extra reasons for advantage and disadvantage don't stack.

So in the BAB case, if all the creatures are blinded, and you happened to be using the optional flanking rule from the DMG then ALL of the creatures have neither advantage nor disadvantage since the advantage/disadvantage from not seeing each other cancels out and any other source of advantage/disadvantage is ignored. Thus the all make straight rolls.

Since thunderwave does not require you to be able to see your target to cast it ... if A casts thunderwave then B makes a save as normal as you mentioned.

[Keravath]

For simplicity's sake, I just make it so that you know the position of things when those things last took an action, and you generally trip into the environment when moving more than 10 feet and something in the environment is different than your last position (like a wall or Difficult Terrain), generally a DC 10 to avoid going prone and reveal where you are.

So badguy shoots at you, you know where he last was. Badguy trips into something, you know where that happened.

This puts a lot of value on mobility, while also punishing you for being too mobile.

Lastly, ranged attacks while blind are made with Disadvantage, period. This not only makes melee combat a little bit better (when range usually is), but it puts even more value on mobility (as ranged attackers hardly need to move at all).

Combined, this makes blind-fighting exactly what it should be: A chaotic game of Marco Polo that starts with panic and ends with murder.

I like the suggestion of using disadvantage for ranged attacks under these circumstances. It makes more sense to me :) ... but I'd like to note that it is a house rule and not RAW since the PHB doesn't distinguish between ranged and melee attacks in terms of advantage/disadvantage due to not being able to see (only hear) your target.

[MThurston]

I guess I see this as RAI and not RAW.

So by RAW if I put all of us in a room with no lights, we could easily hit each other with bouncy balls?

Because that is not how I see it.

Everyone would have disadvantage and miss way more than hitting someone.

I will explain my reading.

Anyone attacking a blinded character has advantage. (This is to represent people that can see the blinded person.)

Blinded characters attack at disadvantage. This is straight forward.

So if you are blinded then you are always hitting at disadvantage, and I would have to retract that flanking comment.

Its like the person being attacked is telling the attacker where to swing. (No I am over here.)

[MThurston]

I like the suggestion of using disadvantage for ranged attacks under these circumstances. It makes more sense to me :) ... but I'd like to note that it is a house rule and not RAW since the PHB doesn't distinguish between ranged and melee attacks in terms of advantage/disadvantage due to not being able to see (only hear) your target.

Yes, there is no difference between melee and ranged atracks.

[Keravath]

I guess I see this as RAI and not RAW.

So by RAW if I put all of us in a room with no lights, we could easily hit each other with bouncy balls?

Because that is not how I see it.

Everyone would have disadvantage and miss way more than hitting someone.

I will explain my reading.

Anyone attacking a blinded character has advantage. (This is to represent people that can see the blinded person.)

Blinded characters attack at disadvantage. This is straight forward.

So if you are blinded then you are always hitting at disadvantage, and I would have to retract that flanking comment.

Its like the person being attacked is telling the attacker where to swing. (No I am over here.)

If you want the rules as written ...

If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage. If your target can't see you then you have advantage. If you can't see your target and they can't see you then it is a straight roll.

From a realism perspective (in terms of the understanding I impose on the rules ... this isn't the rules just how I imagine it), I justify it this way.

1) If you can't see your target then you are blindly swinging your sword into the general area where you know your target is (or throwing a bouncy ball). If they can see you and your sword (or ball) then they can move, dodge or raise their shield to block preventing the attack from landing. Thus the attack has disadvantage.

2) If you are attacking a target that can't see you then they are moving around, swinging their shield in the general direction where they can hear you but it isn't so easy to hear the sword swing (or a ball in the air) so your attacks have advantage.

3) If you can't see and your target can't see then you are swinging blindly at the general area where you can hear your target. At the same time the target is blindly waving their shield and weapon and moving around in an attempt to either randomly block the attack or avoid it. In this case, since both the effectiveness of the attack and the effectiveness of the defense are reduced, the chances of landing an effective hit are roughly the same as when both sides can see. In this case the advantage and disadvantage cancel resulting in a straight roll.


RAW, it works the same for ranged attacks but from a DM perspective, I find it harder to justify since it is fairly easy to hear someone wearing armor moving within 10' but much harder to try and pinpoint the location of a target you can't see at 60' based on hearing alone. However, D&D isn't a simulation and I just usually go with the RAW even for ranged attacks since it is quick and easy.

[MThurston]

If you want the rules as written ...

If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage. If your target can't see you then you have advantage. If you can't see your target and they can't see you then it is a straight roll.

From a realism perspective (in terms of the understanding I impose on the rules ... this isn't the rules just how I imagine it), I justify it this way.

1) If you can't see your target then you are blindly swinging your sword into the general area where you know your target is (or throwing a bouncy ball). If they can see you and your sword (or ball) then they can move, dodge or raise their shield to block preventing the attack from landing. Thus the attack has disadvantage.

2) If you are attacking a target that can't see you then they are moving around, swinging their shield in the general direction where they can hear you but it isn't so easy to hear the sword swing (or a ball in the air) so your attacks have advantage.

3) If you can't see and your target can't see then you are swinging blindly at the general area where you can hear your target. At the same time the target is blindly waving their shield and weapon and moving around in an attempt to either randomly block the attack or avoid it. In this case, since both the effectiveness of the attack and the effectiveness of the defense are reduced, the chances of landing an effective hit are roughly the same as when both sides can see. In this case the advantage and disadvantage cancel resulting in a straight roll.


RAW, it works the same for ranged attacks but from a DM perspective, I find it harder to justify since it is fairly easy to hear someone wearing armor moving within 10' but much harder to try and pinpoint the location of a target you can't see at 60' based on hearing alone. However, D&D isn't a simulation and I just usually go with the RAW even for ranged attacks since it is quick and easy.
So my dumb warlock casts darkness on himself and goes into combat.

He fills up an area so I can't see the three people in the darkness.

So I close my eyes as an archer and get a straight roll because myself and the target are blind.

Do you see and issue with this?

As a DM I find it hard to believe two blind people can hit eachother easily.

[Man_Over_Game]

So my dumb warlock casts darkness on himself and goes into combat.

He fills up an area so I can't see the three people in the darkness.

So I close my eyes as an archer and get a straight roll because myself and the target are blind.

Do you see and issue with this?

As a DM I find it hard to believe two blind people can hit eachother easily.

It's a sacrifice for simplicity. Yes, you can add exceptions, but that means more rules. Advantage isn't a "+2 to hit", it's just Advantage. It cuts down on bean-counting a bunch of penalties and bonuses to try to net out a +3 bonus after calculating 5 things on either side. Now it doesn't matter if you have more than one source of Advantage or 4 sources of Disadvantage, and so it makes counting anything past the first to be irrelevant.

So yes, being Prone while in a Darkness room doesn't do anything, but the solution is often more complicated than it's worth.

[MThurston]

As a player and a DM I can not go by RAW.

The rules are basically saying that if both people are blind then its like having sight. And that is far from the truth.

By the rule if two archers are at long range and both are in the dark. They shoot at each other as if they can see.

That is just stupid.