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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next This ranged Paladin oath, the Oath of Purity. Could really use some feedback.



Swaoeaeieu
2020-07-22, 08:42 AM
Hello Playground!

So, i was recently inspired by a homebrew Cleric subclass i saw called the Shinto domain (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qeiLd9C9KS3PtivRTAF1zYD6_opCeLyt/view), where the cleric gets access to bows and a Kyudo inspired ranged attack. But i thought a cleric has very little reason to bother with weapon attacks after a certain point, considering they are full casters.

In my mind the more suitable class to become divine archers who, instead of other archer builds, focus on that one perfect shot are Paladins. They do not get as many attacks as fighters, or access to swift quiver like a ranger. And Smiting could offset the damage discrepancy.

But Smite doesn't work on ranged attacks.

Until you homebrew it so they do of course, which brings me here. I have a few ideas on what to put in a kyudo, one shot but with holy power, inspired paladin oath. But as i have never made a subclass, i need some help.

The flavour of this Oath would be protection at a distance. A lone archer protecting the shrine on top of a hilltop. Or setting up a safe area for people to flee to during war. Not the in-your-face type of bodyguarding a regular paladin would do, but something else.

The problem i encounter is that the Paladin has been designed to be for close combat, smite only works on melee attacks, your aura is 10 feet to encourage staying close to people. Lay on hands is obviously also meant to be used in close proximity to people.

Then there is the argument that Smite with ranged attacks is too powerful, since to do that large amount of holy damage, a paladin has to put himself in danger by getting close to enemies. Being able to to that damage and stay out of harm's way is imbalanced.

I thought it was a good concept to build something for, but i do wonder if this should be made a thing, and if so, how. If anyone has any good ideas and/or feedback i would greatly appreciate it.



Ideas for what to include in this subclass:

-changing the level 2 fighting style for archery style

-Kyudo: Instead of a normal attack action, make one ranged attack. you can add cha to attack role, maybe also to damage. And you can smite on this attack if it hits.
It seems strong, but i would include language specifying this isn't a normal attack, but an action that lets you make the one attack. So you can only get this bonus to one attack per round. To really give it that Kyudo feeling i have also considered it only being useable if you forgo a move action that turn.

-Channel divinity, i currently have no ideas for.

-level 7 feature would help with the problem of aura’s being suboptimal for archers: The range of Aura’s, and spells that have an area of effect that moves with you, such as Crusader's Mantle, have their range doubled.
This would give you a much larger area to aid your party from, without forcing you, an archer that isn't very mobile if i add Kyudo’s non movement rule, to stick close to danger.

-Level 15 feature should be something to emulate that safe-zone feel. When concentrating on a spell like in unnamed level 7 feature, you can make a ranged attack of opportunity against someone moving through the affected area.
-Alternative level 15 feature could be the creation of some kind of barrier, but that doesnt fit in the motive for other lvl 15 paladin features.

-Level 20 paladin features are pretty powerful. So i was thinking something like the Shinto domains Spirit barrier. For one minute you are surrounded by a 15 feet radius Wall of Force centered around you that Any creature you wish can pass through this wall.
This would give you and your party a pretty good bunker for a full minute. But feels pretty passive compared to the other Oaths out there.


So if anyone has advice on how to turn these loose ideas into a coherent homebrew i would be very gratefull.

thanks in advance for any input :)

[edit note] i forgot to put in the link to the inspiration for this topic.

BerzerkerUnit
2020-07-22, 10:48 AM
You can roll a bunch of stuff together in the Oath.

To give a particular feel for Kyudo you can add-



After that, look at Kikyo/Kagome from Inuyasha.

Centered Defense
Beginning at 3rd level when you take this oathWhen wearing light or no armor you can calculate your AC with Dexterity+Charisma+10.


Divine Bow
Beginning at 3rd level when you take this oath When wielding a longbow you can use a bonus action to center your heart and mind on the attack adding your Proficiency bonus to the damage of your attacks. On a hit you may use your divine smite as if you’d struck with a melee weapon.

Channel Divinity: Soulstorm Arrows
As a bonus action, When you attack with a bow you can infuse an arrow with spiritual might beyond the norm. The damage of this attack will be the maximum possible result. If the target is a fiend or undead, it must make a con save vs your spell dc or suffer 3 levels of exhaustion representing the loss of a significant portion of its mass. Alternatively, if the target is a possessed or charmed creature you can have the arrow deal no damage and end the charm or possession effect.

Aura of focus
Allies within 10 feet can add 1d4 to Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma based skill checks and attack rolls. Increases to 30 feet at 18th.

Stillness of Body, Awareness of Mind
Beginning at X level you can reduce your move speed to 0 at the beginning of your turn. When you do you may add your Charisma bonus to perception, Insight, and Investigation checks.

One with the Bow
At 20th Level you can use a bonus action to enter a state of perfect harmony with the elements and your bow. Attacks with your Bow can always benefit from your Smite feature and add your charisma bonus in additional radiant damage and the first attack you make each turn benefits from your channel divinity feature. Regain use of this feature after short or long rest.

I’m sure I’m missing a feature.
I’d leave the ranged the fighting style off and allow them to grab it with the new feat or MC.

The Kyujutsu monk doesn’t get it either.

Swaoeaeieu
2020-07-23, 08:59 AM
You can roll a bunch of stuff together in the Oath.

To give a particular feel for Kyudo you can add-



After that, look at Kikyo/Kagome from Inuyasha.

[snip for space]

The Kyujutsu monk doesn’t get it either.

Hey man, thanks for the suggestions, i think i'll use some of those.
But is there perhaps a bit missing in your post after you say ''To give a particular feel for Kyudo you can add-'' ?

and aside from the picture, i am not actually familliar with Inuyasha at all. So i dont know how that would translate into dnd abilities at all.

but thanks for the help either way :)

BerzerkerUnit
2020-07-23, 10:18 AM
I moved the unarmored defense bit down and didn’t delete the preceding text.

Kagome and Kikyo were more or less Shinto priestesses that could blow things up with their spiritual arrows.

Here’s a link to more info about the sacred arrow.
https://inuyasha.fandom.com/wiki/Sacred_Arrow

LudicSavant
2020-07-23, 10:40 AM
I would love to see a class of this sort done well. I suggest looking at the archers of the Silver Flame from Eberron (who have a tradition of archery and Paladins in their fluff) and characters like Kikyo from Inuyasha.


The problem i encounter is that the Paladin has been designed to be for close combat, smite only works on melee attacks, your aura is 10 feet to encourage staying close to people. Lay on hands is obviously also meant to be used in close proximity to people.

If anything it could be considered an advantage to have the option to position that aura at the back lines rather than the from. That said, if you'd like to be able to keep away from your allies, one option is to have the aura emanate not from you, but from a marked / Blessed Arrow (for example, the level 7 aura ability could allow you to imbue your aura into a projectile, maybe even shoot a sort of 'barrier arrow').


Then there is the argument that Smite with ranged attacks is too powerful, since to do that large amount of holy damage, a paladin has to put himself in danger by getting close to enemies. Being able to to that damage and stay out of harm's way is imbalanced.

To be fair, there are already classes and builds that can do that kind of damage (or more), while staying out of harms way. If there were to be an imbalance, it would be that Paladins would get to combine it with the ability to place their aura basically anywhere (so they can raise the saves of a kiting team), and riding around a pegasus that can tank meteor swarms (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds) to keep out of range. But already, Paladins don't suffer as much from being melee-reliant as some other classes (since if they get stuck out of range, they can still cast helpful spells or the like).

There are at least a couple inherent disadvantages of a ranged, Dex-based Paladin... mostly that Paladins require 13 Strength for multiclassing, and that you wouldn't be threatening smite OAs, and that it's more difficult to get Advantage at range than in melee. Sharpshooter also synergizes better with a high number of low damage attacks than a low number of high damage attacks (not to mention the Archery style). But yeah, you would probably want to have some sort of tradeoff for the advantages that ranged combat provides. One possible tradeoff would be that the archery-enabling abilities simply are taking up room that might otherwise be dedicated to other features, like immunity to Charms or Channel Divinities or what-have-you.

Note: Banishing and Branding Smite work with ranged attacks, while other smite spells specifically require a melee attack, for whatever reason. Divine Favor works, too.



*snip Subclass* I like the idea of purifying things with arrows. But why does this subclass have so many features that just pump its raw DPR beyond what a ranged smiting Paladin would already offer? +Proficiency to damage, an aura of +1d4 to allied attacks, +Cha to damage? I would prefer to see more of a focus on fun stuff like ending a possession with an arrow; an archer Paladin will have enough raw offense as is, IMHO. The extra AC also seems unnecessary; a ranged Paladin will already be durable and evasive for an archer.

BerzerkerUnit
2020-07-23, 12:50 PM
OP specifically referenced Kyudo which doesn’t typically evoke a person in platemail.

The increase to DPR is to offset the DPR loss from lack of opportunity attacks, two weapon, or GWM.

I didn’t add a spell list, but I thought it would go without saying stuff like entangling strike, conjure barrage, flame arrow, etc would all be on there.

LudicSavant
2020-07-23, 05:32 PM
The increase to DPR is to offset the DPR loss from lack of opportunity attacks, two weapon, or GWM. You seem to be assuming that archery is an inferior weapon choice, and it isn't. The fact that there's a tradeoff to choosing ranged is a feature, not a glitch.


OP specifically referenced Kyudo which doesn’t typically evoke a person in platemail. The issue isn't that they're not wearing armor. It's that you gave them functionally higher AC than an armored archer would normally have.

Swaoeaeieu
2020-07-23, 05:40 PM
I moved the unarmored defense bit down and didn’t delete the preceding text.

Kagome and Kikyo were more or less Shinto priestesses that could blow things up with their spiritual arrows.

Here’s a link to more info about the sacred arrow.
https://inuyasha.fandom.com/wiki/Sacred_Arrow


I would love to see a class of this sort done well. I suggest looking at the archers of the Silver Flame from Eberron (who have a tradition of archery and Paladins in their fluff) and characters like Kikyo from Inuyasha.


If anything it could be considered an advantage to have the option to position that aura at the back lines rather than the from. That said, if you'd like to be able to keep away from your allies, one option is to have the aura emanate not from you, but from a marked / Blessed Arrow (for example, the level 7 aura ability could allow you to imbue your aura into a projectile, maybe even shoot a sort of 'barrier arrow').


To be fair, there are already classes and builds that can do that kind of damage (or more), while staying out of harms way. If there were to be an imbalance, it would be that Paladins would get to combine it with the ability to place their aura basically anywhere (so they can raise the saves of a kiting team), and riding around a pegasus that can tank meteor swarms (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds) to keep out of range. But already, Paladins don't suffer as much from being melee-reliant as some other classes (since if they get stuck out of range, they can still cast helpful spells or the like).

There are at least a couple inherent disadvantages of a ranged, Dex-based Paladin... mostly that Paladins require 13 Strength for multiclassing, and that you wouldn't be threatening smite OAs, and that it's more difficult to get Advantage at range than in melee. Sharpshooter also synergizes better with a high number of low damage attacks than a low number of high damage attacks (not to mention the Archery style). But yeah, you would probably want to have some sort of tradeoff for the advantages that ranged combat provides. One possible tradeoff would be that the archery-enabling abilities simply are taking up room that might otherwise be dedicated to other features, like immunity to Charms or Channel Divinities or what-have-you.

Note: Banishing and Branding Smite work with ranged attacks, while other smite spells specifically require a melee attack, for whatever reason. Divine Favor works, too.

I like the idea of purifying things with arrows. But why does this subclass have so many features that just pump its raw DPR beyond what a ranged smiting Paladin would already offer? +Proficiency to damage, an aura of +1d4 to allied attacks, +Cha to damage? I would prefer to see more of a focus on fun stuff like ending a possession with an arrow; an archer Paladin will have enough raw offense as is, IMHO. The extra AC also seems unnecessary; a ranged Paladin will already be durable and evasive for an archer.

Thank you both for your input, thanks to this i have made some progress. Someday soon when i have all the abilities on paper i was going to use Ludic's dps calculator to check for balance, imagine my suprise when you actually show up to the thread :)

I think a lot of ''feel'' of the oath can even come from the spell selection. Splitting the list with archery/damage spells and protection/cleansing type spells would fit really good right?


As follows are what i came up so far for the Oath of Purity (name up for feedback as well offcourse) Paladin:

Oath spells:
1st Hunters Mark, Shield of Faith
2nd Prayer of Healing, Augury
3rd Lightning Arrow, Spirit guardians
4th Banishment, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
5th Conjure Volley, Wall of Force

Adding a few hunter spells makes this Oath more archery focussed. Other spells are picked for their ability to set up safe zones, remove evil creatures or find guidance from the divine. I am a little worried about a 30 foot range Spirit Guardians being too powerfull at level 7. Any thoughts on spell selections?

3rd level abilities:
Sacred Arrow:
Beginning at 3rd level, you can block out the chaos of battle and focus on making one perfect shot. You can use your move and attack action to kneel, focus, and make a singular attack with a shortbow or longbow, adding your charisma modifier to the attack role. On a hit, you can treat the attack as a melee attack for purposes of Divine Smite and spells with Smite in the name.

I really like the penalty of foregoing a move action to do a special attack. In my mind in perfectly gives that Kyudo feel. What i am not sure of if it is too big a price to pay or not enough for what it give you. Also wether it is worded in a way that fits with other dnd phrasings.

Channel Divinities:
Soul Piercing strike: As a bonus action, you can empower your next attack with great cleansing energy. On a hit, the target must make a constitution save versus your spell save DC or suffer 3 levels of exhaustion as the arrow pierces not just the physical, but also the spiritual. Alternatively, if the target is possessed or charmed, you can have the arrow deal no damage but end the charm or possession effect.
Prayer for peace: As an action, you present your holy symbol and besiege your surroundings for a peaceful solution. You and all creatures within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw versus your spell save DC. On a failure, a creature can only use improvised attacks, and cannot cast spells requiring material components. These effects last for 1 minute. You can end this effect early by using your bonus action.

Soul Piercing strike is all to BerzerkerUnit's credit. I just changed it to work on all creature types. Fits the flavour i have in my head (but not written yet, that will probably be tomorrow)
Prayer for peace i blatantly borrowed from the Oath of the Bound Blade, another homebrew oath i have seen recently (i can link it if people want to take a look at it), but it is a nice effect for a class meant to discourage needless violence, but harshly shoot down those who engage.

Level 7:
The Soul’s Horizon:
By 7th level, your soothing, protective presence has increased in reach to support those in need, but far away. When you cast a concentration spell with an effect centered around you such as crusader's mantle or spirit guardians, the radius range of the spell effect is increased by 15 feet and you have advantage on concentration throws to maintain that spell.
In addition, this ability also doubles the effective range of your Aura of protection, and Aura of Courage at level 10.

Didn't hear anything bad about my initial idea for this, alternatively i would use the ability to 'shoot' AoE spells somewhere on the map, but personally i like this one better. increasing aura's and spells effect is really good, but the trade off is not having a unique aura of it's own. I will note i was planning on putting Spirit Guardians on this Oaths spell list, but doing that damage in that large a range might be OP


Level 15:
Purity’s Grace: Starting at level 15, even those of impure souls are wary to strike you. You are always under the effects of the Sanctuary spell.

Simillar to the Oath of Devotion's level 15 feature. But a different spell. Adding to the idea of avoiding conflict, or being so pure of heart enemies are discouraged to attack you.

Level 20:
Sanctified Guardian: At 20th level, as an action, the purity of your soul bursts forth, tolerating no evil doers in your presence, and protecting your charges from those that seek to harm them. You gain the following benefits for the next minute:
- All your attacks benefit from your Soul Piercing strike Channel Divinity without needing to expand your Channel Divinity, attacks made can not raise a creatures exhaustion level above 5.
- Allied creatures affected by your Aura of Protection are under the effects of the Protection from Good and Evil spell.

Soul piercing strike is good, hitting it twice would outright kill an enemy due to 6 levels of exhaustion, i thought i had to at least prevent that. Because as i wrote this, a level 20 palading of this oath does not have to forgo his extra attack as described in the level 3 ability, meaning he might just kill his big Level 20 BBEG in one go. Can't have that off course. But to be able to severely cripple enemies for a minute seems apropriate for this subclass focussed on two things: removing the impure and protecting the innocent from them. Wich is why i added the second effect, which has a synergy with Soul's Horizon.


I have very little experience with high level DND 5th edition, so any more suggestions for the level 15 and 20 abilities would be greatly helpfull.

Extra quesion: i want to make sure the avarage and/or potential max damage for this class fits with other ranged builds. What should i compare it too in my calculations?

[Edit]: only had up to level 7 figured out before, added the rest of the oath, minus flavour and tenets to the post to avoid double posting.

LudicSavant
2020-07-24, 03:01 PM
Extra quesion: i want to make sure the avarage and/or potential max damage for this class fits with other ranged builds. What should i compare it too in my calculations?

The archer Fighter (particularly from subclasses like Samurai, Battle Master, and Eldritch Knight) is pretty much the gold standard for single target ranged damage. You could also compare against Bard archers or Hexblade archers or Eldritch Blast-focused Sorlock builds or the like.

If you're worried about a ranged Paladin's damage output, you actually could mitigate it somewhat just by limiting their ranged smites to arrows (rather than bolts), since Paladins (like anything with big on-hit damage riders) synergize particularly well with bonus action attacks (like Crossbow Expert). And because flavorwise you probably want to encourage them to use a bow rather than crossbow anyways. I doubt you'd need anything too obtrusive to balance ranged smites, as long as you don't go overboard with the subclass abilities.

Regarding some of the suggested abilities:
I agree that foregoing movement for a bonus feels good for the theme you're going for (and somewhat mitigates the "I have Find Steed and an aura" advantage that Paladins would have over typical archers, giving you a bit more power budget to spend elsewhere), though I would note when wording it that there's no such thing as a "Move Action" in 5e.

Those Channel Divinities look weird to me. You pray for peace and everyone starts improvising weapons? The exhaustion arrow seems to have clearer flavor, but also feels to me like it wants to be an anti-giant monster shot and I'm not sure it'll actually be used for that (since Con saves usually aren't used against Legendary Resistance monsters). It's very all-or-nothing, against a defense that is usually high for the things it's thematically used on. I like the general idea of it but think it could use some tweaks.


Level 15:
Purity’s Grace: Starting at level 15, even those of impure souls are wary to strike you. You are always under the effects of the Sanctuary spell.

Simillar to the Oath of Devotion's level 15 feature. But a different spell. Adding to the idea of avoiding conflict, or being so pure of heart enemies are discouraged to attack you.
This looks a lot stronger than the Oath of Devotion feature.

The logic here seems to be that it's like Oath of Devotion's level 15 because they're both level 1 spells, but I think that logic doesn't really work. For example, you wouldn't consider always-on Shield comparable to always-on Shield of Faith, would you? It's not enough to look at the spell level, you have to look at how switching it to always-on changes the nature of the spell. In the case of Sanctuary, it eliminates a lot of Sanctuary's disadvantages -- its very short duration and action limits (e.g. the fact that it breaks if you attack, etc).

By contrast, PFG&E is a spell with a long enough duration to last multiple combats, is usually pre-cast (thus not taking up actions in combat anyways), and only works against a limited selection of creatures (so even though it's always on, you don't always benefit). See the difference? Making Sanctuary always-on fundamentally changes its impact, while having PFG&E always on is comparable to a couple extra first level spell slots.

What's more is that your ranged Paladin isn't really going to need such a potent feature for personal defense. They are already going to be a pretty elusive target, simply by virtue of having the Paladin's kit attached to a ranged character (e.g. self-healing, fast spell-sharing mount, aura saves, etc etc). They don't need to get an ability that makes them tankier than the frontline Paladins.