Possible exploit: Reincarnate can raise your ability scores above 20

[ftafp]

While most mechanics explicitly state that they cannot be be used to raise your ability scores above 20, there's no rule that says your ability scores can't be above 20 without exceptions. As it turns out, the Player's Handbook description does not specify that a player's racial modifiers follow the normal limit, but because up until Eberron with the release of the Changeling, no race had a way to reach 20 using just their 3d6 and their racial modifier

However, according to Sage Advice, when a character is revived by reincarnate, every single one of their racial traits change. That includes ability score modifiers. meaning, for example, a VGM Orc Wizard with 20 INT who is reincarnated as a Rock Gnome would suddenly have an INT of 24

The question now becomes, how do we go hog-wild with this? Is there a way to permanently change our race back to our old race without changing our ability scores?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"The GM rolls a d100 and consults the following table to determine what form the creature takes when restored to life, or the GM chooses a form."

It's not currently possible without DM cooperation.

[ftafp]

"The GM rolls a d100 and consults the following table to determine what form the creature takes when restored to life, or the GM chooses a form."

It's not currently possible without DM cooperation.

damn. it really was too good to be true

[JackPhoenix]

Unless you have some sort of special ability that increase your maximal possible ability score (like level 20 barbarian, or the stat tomes), you can't get over 20. If you already have 20 in an ability score, and reincarnate into a race with a bonus to that ability score, you still only have 20, as racial ability score modifiers don't say they increase your maximum. The bonus is essentially wasted.

[ftafp]

Unless you have some sort of special ability that increase your maximal possible ability score (like level 20 barbarian, or the stat tomes), you can't get over 20. If you already have 20 in an ability score, and reincarnate into a race with a bonus to that ability score, you still only have 20, as racial ability score modifiers don't say they increase your maximum. The bonus is essentially wasted.

where does it say that?

[heavyfuel]

where does it say that?

Here, you said it yourself:


While most mechanics explicitly state that they cannot be be used to raise your ability scores above 20, there's rule that says your ability scores can't be above 20 without exceptions. As it turns out, the Player's Handbook description does not specify that a player's racial modifiers follow the normal limit

As you yourself put it, you need an exception. The lack of exception in the PHB's in regards to Racial ability scores means you cannot go over 20 with them.

[Greywander]

I believe it's only implied in a few different places. The tomes and manuals that raise your stats explicitly say that your new max is also increased by 2, e.g. if you have 16 DEX and you use the DEX tome, your DEX would increase to 18, but you could also use ASIs to boost your DEX up to a max of 22. Once you hit 20th level and start getting epic boons, these boons can also be spent on ASIs that can raise your stats up to a max of 30, instead of 20.

So the implication is that a PC can't normally raise their stats above 20 by any means, except for those that explicitly say so. I don't know if it explicitly states this anywhere, though, but it does seem to be RAI, if not RAW.

[ftafp]

Here, you said it yourself:



As you yourself put it, you need an exception. The lack of exception in the PHB's in regards to Racial ability scores means you cannot go over 20 with them.


of all the places to leave out a word... That was a typo. There is NO rule that prevents you from having an ability score over 20. All existing mechanics for raising your ability scores have wording saying they can't raise you above that limit, but there's nothing stopping racial modifiers from putting you over the top

[JackPhoenix]

where does it say that?

Now, because I'm not gonna check the books for a page now, I won't give you the page number, but here's a quote from the SRD: "Each of a creature’s abilities has a score, a number that defines the magnitude of that ability. An ability score is not just a measure of innate capabilities, but also encompasses a creature’s training and competence in activities related to that ability. A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average, but adventurers and many monsters are a cut above average in most abilities. A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches. Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30."

That's a general rule. There are specific rules that allow you to get around that, but those exceptions must be clearly stated. Even the text of ASI states that it's "normal" you can't increase your ability score over 20: "As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature."

[MaxWilson]

of all the places to leave out a word... That was a typo. There is NO rule that prevents you from having an ability score over 20. All existing mechanics for raising your ability scores have wording saying they can't raise you above that limit, but there's nothing stopping racial modifiers from putting you over the top

By that argument you don't need Reincarnation to break the 20 cap--you can start off with Cha 21 right off the bat, as a Changeling. (But then if you take the Actor feat, you may lose 1 point of Charisma, depending on how the DM rules "increase... to a maximum".)

Reincarnate is a gigantic mess that wasn't very well thought-out or -expressed. It's not clear what is intended to happen to your language proficiencies, bonus feats, skill proficiencies, etc. If you Reincarnate from Dwarf into a human, do you pick your new feat on the spot? If you reincarnate from human back into human, can you switch to a different feat? Are you really supposed to lose your knowledge of Persuasion when your Changeling Reincarnates into an Elf, even though you totally would have picked Persuasion as a class or background skill if you didn't get it from your race?

There's no point in arguing about the RAW of Reincarnate because Reincarnate should not be used as written. Get your DM to rewrite it instead, e.g. "roll up a new character with the same number of XP as your old character. You retain your old memories but your stats are completely revamped."

[Necrosnoop110]

"Some of these abilities allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2. You can't increase an ability score above 20." - Player's Handbook (p. 15)

[ftafp]

Now, because I'm not gonna check the books for a page now, I won't give you the page number, but here's a quote from the SRD: "Each of a creature’s abilities has a score, a number that defines the magnitude of that ability. An ability score is not just a measure of innate capabilities, but also encompasses a creature’s training and competence in activities related to that ability. A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average, but adventurers and many monsters are a cut above average in most abilities. A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches. Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30."

That's a general rule. There are specific rules that allow you to get around that, but those exceptions must be clearly stated. Even the text of ASI states that it's "normal" you can't increase your ability score over 20: "As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature."

I'm not sure it's as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. "as high as" and "cannot be higher than" are not perfect synonyms. The former sounds more like an estimate than a hard rule. Plus the same book provides specific examples where your ability scores can go higher, such as a Barbarian's Primal Champion, and every other means of improving your ability score explicitly states that it can't bring your score above 20.

RAI, I agree that you're correct, but RAW its looking murky.


"Some of these abilities allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2. You can't increase an ability score above 20." - Player's Handbook (p. 15)

Scratch that. there it is explicitly

[Satori01]

There is NO rule that prevents you from having an ability score over 20. All existing mechanics for raising your ability scores have wording saying they can't raise you above that limit, but there's nothing stopping racial modifiers from putting you over the top

PG 17 of the PHB:
RACIAL TRAITS
The description of each race includes racial traits that are common to members of that race. The following entries appear among the traits of most races.
ABILITY SCORE INCREASE
Every race increases one or more of a character's ability scores.

PG 15 of the PHB:

Some of these features allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2. You can't increase an ability score above 20.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
When you reach 4th level, and again a t 8th, 1 2th, 16th, and 1 9th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1 . As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

The General Rule of NO PC SCORES ABOVE 20, is well established.

Please cite the SPECIFIC RULE, that states one can do what you are claiming with Racial Ability score increases.

Racial Ability increases are still ability increases. No specific wording exists that states that Racial Ability scores increases are not bound by the ability score ceiling of 20.

Read the Ioun Stone Magic Item...the exception to this general rule is explicitly stated.

Where is your quote of the rules specifically that allows for Racial Ability Increases to not being subject to the general rule?

To my knowledge, there is no such exception for Racial Ability Score Increases.

In Baseball and D&D If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.😀

[ftafp]

PG 17 of the PHB:
RACIAL TRAITS
The description of each race includes racial traits that are common to members of that race. The following entries appear among the traits of most races.
ABILITY SCORE INCREASE
Every race increases one or more of a character's ability scores.

PG 15 of the PHB:

Some of these features allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2. You can't increase an ability score above 20.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
When you reach 4th level, and again a t 8th, 1 2th, 16th, and 1 9th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1 . As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

The General Rule of NO PC SCORES ABOVE 20, is well established.

Please cite the SPECIFIC RULE, that states one can do what you are claiming with Racial Ability score increases.

Racial Ability increases are still ability increases. No specific wording exists that states that Racial Ability scores increases are not bound by the ability score ceiling of 20.

Read the Ioun Stone Magic Item...the exception to this general rule is explicitly stated.

Where is your quote of the rules specifically that allows for Racial Ability Increases to not being subject to the general rule?

To my knowledge, there is no such exception for Racial Ability Score Increases.

In Baseball and D&D If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.😀

I've already admitted I was wrong. what do you people want from me? blood? teeth? It's teeth isn't it? Well too bad my molars are mine. Steal your own.

[Satori01]

Sorry mate, you hadn't updated your prior post before I posted above.

[ftafp]

Sorry mate, you hadn't updated your prior post before I posted above.

fine, you can have one of my molars, but only one of them.

[Greywander]

I've already admitted I was wrong. what do you people want from me? blood? teeth? It's teeth isn't it? Well too bad my molars are mine. Steal your own.
I like to imagine this is what you said to the dentist who tried to remove your wisdom teeth.