Researching Original Spells: Are there spellcasting classes that can't?

[Calimmacil]

I play two Fixed spellcaster characters: a warmage in one game, and a beguiler in another. Both are classes that have a limited spell list (like...nobody, except dread necromancer), and automatically know all their spells (like clerics and druids), but can cast them spontaneously (like bards and sorcerers).

The question is whether fixed spellcasters can do original spell research (as described in DMG 198, and TaB 81-83).

In one game I'm in, my DM created an underground base with a workshop, vaults, and an extensive library. The party killed the wizard who lived there, and there was some discussion over whether to take it over as a base, or move on to other adventures. My character wanted to take it over. I think he meant it for the party wizard to have it, because it's really the perfect setup for spell research.

Anyway, the question came up of whether I would like to do spell research. I never really knew much about the idea, but when I looked into it, I realized, "Hey, this could be really good for a warmage!" Because we have such a limited spell list.

Well, after dangling the possibility in front of me, he is now saying that I can't research new warmage spells, because that would be too strong. Instead, I can (if I want) research new Evocation spells for the wizard spell list, which I could add to my class via the Advanced Learning feature.

His rationale is that the last paragraph of the DMG p.198, where it talks about researching original spells, says that if a bard or sorcerer (who has strict limits on the number of spells known) researches an original spell, they have to put it into one of their spells known slots (they can't just add an extra slot because they researched the spell). And, since fixed spellcasters also have limited spells known slots (equal to the class spell list), he says that means fixed spellcasters can't add to their class spell lists at all.

So, my question is, Is this reasoning sound? And, are there any other classes we can compare, that might not qualify for original spell research (for their own spell list)?

[ngilop]

Of course you can. There is nothing in either a Warmage or Beguiler's class description that disallows the chance to create a new spell


A caveat I think for those particular classes is the spell has to fit the theme. SO no giant explosions of damage for the beguiler and no spells that are about making things smell not rotten for the warmage and such.


For a warmage, basically do Xd6 damage in Y shape of Z elemental type and you good.

[el minster]

Also advanced learning and eclectic learning. You might be able to research a sor/wiz spell then add onto your spells known list

[Zanos]

You're in a bit of a fuzzy situation because the spell research rules aren't very fleshed out.

The implication of creating a new spell that is specifically on the warmage list is that now every single warmage that exists can cast that spell. Because it's a warmage spell, and warmages automatically know their entire spell list. RAW wise, your DM can veto literally any spell because the spell research rules that you automatically fail(but still expend gold, lol) if the DM doesn't think your spell is viable.

So the book isn't really in your favor here because it pretty much just says the DM decides what is and isn't a viable spell. As far as my personal opinion goes? I think your DMs rule is fairly reasonable, since paying 1,000gp per spell level to permanently add a spell to your repertoire of known spells is going to be much cheaper than a comparable magic item, like a runestaff.

[Calimmacil]

Yeah, that did come up (that it would then be known to all warmages everywhere of the necessary level to cast it).

So he is saying my only options are to create a spell on the wizard list (and gain it through Advanced Learning feature of my class). Or to create a cleric list spell (I'm a Warmage 6 / Rainbow Servant 9, so I'll have access to the entire cleric spell list next level).

He's not the kind of DM who would let me go through the research and find out afterward that it's not viable (fortunately...yes, it seems the rules are written to allow for some very disheartening 'surprise' outcomes).

Thanks for all the replies. I shared with him ngilop's response, and he said he could see the reasoning, but that he disagrees.

So it appears that for my DM, all fixed casters would be excluded from adding to their class spell lists, but would be eligible for original spell research on other class lists, if they could find a way (including their class feature like advanced learning) to add it to their personal spell list.

[Edea]

That would also be my adjudication: the spontaneous list character can research a new spell, but it needs to follow the guidelines for their Advanced Learning feature. A beguiler would be able to devise a new sorcerer/wizard spell of the Enchantment or Illusion school, and then use their Advanced Learning feature to add it to their beguiler list (or use the Extra Spell feat and grab it that way), but they wouldn't just flat-out devise 'a new beguiler spell' and then add it as a free extra spell all willy-nilly afterwards, any more than spell research would expand a sorcerer's spells-known repertoire.

[Darg]

The core rule book only mentions that wizards can research new spells. By RAW, that means the other core classes were never given that ability. By extension no other class has the capability either unless expressly given the capability. This means, only wizards can research. Everyone else has to use the extra spell feat.

It only makes sense that wizards are the only class that can research spells because it is literally the only for them to receive new spells in some form. Either they learn it from some one else who did the research or they do it themselves. Other classes receive the knowledge automatically. Specifically in the Warmage's case they trained exhaustively to instill the knowledge of their spells to be accessed intrinsically as they rise in ability. Beguilers aren't fluffed out in the same way, but advanced learning could technically be used in the same way as research (more limited based on levels instead of time), but it would have to be available to wizards and sorcerers (based on the sorcerer description their ability is based on talent and practice so technically any sorcerer spell not on their list is available once they learn about it in some way, but no research).

[Zanos]

The core rule book only mentions that wizards can research new spells. By RAW, that means the other core classes were never given that ability. By extension no other class has the capability either unless expressly given the capability. This means, only wizards can research. Everyone else has to use the extra spell feat.
That is incorrect. The spell research suggestion says both that any spellcaster can perform spell research, and outlines specific provisions for spontaneous casters who do so.

[Gruftzwerg]

imho your best bet for adding spells from other classes to your class list is per PRCs.

Namely Wyrm Wizard and Recaster. Both give you the option to add cross class spells (only 1-2).

[Falontani]

maybe suggest to your DM to allow you to research a spell normally, but when it would be added to your warmage list, you lose access to one of your existing warmage spells of the same level. Not every warmage would learn the spell automatically, and if they wanted to learn it, you'd have to teach it to them, and they would also have to sacrifice one of the existing warmage spells.

Still much more powerful than sorc spell research, but warmage is much more powerful than sorc in the spells known department.