Sun Blade vs Scimitar of Speed

[EmeraldBoa]

For my first game of D&D ever, I'm playing a DEX Battlemaster with Duelist, which I know has a reputation for being underpowered, and while I know I'll never out-damage the rogue or the paladin and that most of the fun in battlemaster comes from the utility, I also don't want to feel like I'm fighting the enemy with a piece of wet spaghetti.

Our DM has asked us for a wishlist of magic items, and I'm stuck on swords. Specifically, I'm stuck on Scimitar of Speed (+2, 1d6, can attack once as a bonus action) vs Sun Blade (+2, 1d8, +1d8 damage vs undead, literally a lightsabre). Flame Tongue is, alas, off the table since I have reason to suspect this is going to be a very fire-resistant campaign. We're supposed to go up to level 17. Innnn the left corner: more attacks. In the right: bigger dice and thus slightly bigger crits - with lots of nice things in my kit to give myself advantage - and slightly more oomph to my extra attacks. Noob that I am, it's a terrible dilemma :smalleek:

Will I notice a significant difference between the two weapons, or can I go with the one that feels coolest?

[Aett_Thorn]

An extra attack per turn is usually worth much more than a slight increase in damage die (you're only gaining +1 damage on average per hit), and given that you can apply your maneuvers per hit, the extra attack is likely much more valuable. As such, if you're between these two items, I'd say that the Scimitar is your better bet.

However, if you're an Elf or Half-Elf, have you considered asking for a Moonblade? These can be great in that DMs can have some fun with them and integrate it into a story if they want.

[J-H]

What else will be competing for your bonus action? If you're going to go with Shield Master or a Rogue dip for Cunning action, or something similar, then you'll end up not benefiting from the SoS as much.
You could also just put both on the list and let the DM choose as appropriate. You won't get it until somewhere in the 8-13 range.

[stoutstien]

Who considers duelist battle Master underpower?

As for the weapon picks the scimitar of speed is perfect for BM fighters who don't have a ton of uses for their bonus action.

[nickl_2000]

In my opinion it really depends on the build you are thinking. Are you planning on getting Shield Master or Rogue for cunning action or something else that will give you regular bonus actions. If you look at the shield master feat and it's exciting to you the sunblade is significantly better then the scimitar of speed.

[Alucard89]

Battlemaster with Duelist is not "underpowered" per se. It's just in terms of damage/DPR the PAM/GWM or XBE/SS Battlemaster min-max builds are way better.

However, as you said - you want utility. So I would go for Scimitar of Speed, just to increase my DPR a little more + once your party has access to Holy Weapon - I would kindly ask for this buff to be used on me in combat. By level 11 with SoS you will have 4 attacks normally, 7 with Action Surge. With Holy Weapon additional 2d8 each hit - that is a lot of DPR.

If you want to be "utility" focused, consider also the following things in your career:

1. After level 11/12 go for Gloom Stalker Ranger or Rogue to add more utility tools for yourself.
2. Consider Magic Initiate feat to add yourself some more utility with cantrips + 1st level sell like Find Familiar for example
3. I don't know what is your CHA score, but you can also consider dipping after level 11/12 - Tome Warlock with some utility invocations like Detect Magic at will, Disguise Self and so on.
4. Since you took "not OP build" route - try to speak with your DM about
5. Take Sentinel feat to add utility with locking enemies in place or adding more attacks during your turn.

[BenTheJester]

It all depends on how often you use/plan to use your Bonus Action. Do you use Feinting attack, Commanders Strike or Rally a lot?
Do you intend to take the Shield Mastery Feat (I recommend it for S&B)?

Do you think you'll face undeads a lot?

If so, go for Sun Blade.

If you have few uses for your Bonus Action, and especially if you have the dueling Fighting Style, go for Scimitar.

Damage comparison at late levels (with no use of maneuvers, considering Dueling) is:
Sun Blade: 3*(1d8+2+5+2) = 40.5 (54 vs undead)
Scimitar: 4*(1d6+2+5+2) = 50 (37.5 if you can't use your Bonus Action to attack)

Without dueling, it's 34.5 for Sun Blade and 42 for Scimitar.

[Demonslayer666]

List them both on your wish list, and just mention which you would prefer more.

I would also recommend the Scimitar of Speed, even if you have things that could use your bonus action. Extra attacks are great.

[Sparky McDibben]

Flame Tongue is, alas, off the table since I have reason to suspect this is going to be a very fire-resistant campaign.

Two things: within the dichotomy illustrated, I'd go with sun blade. But I'd also recommend a look at a frost-brand weapon, too.

[RSP]

I’d vote for SoS over SB.

DPR-wise, an additional attack is better than a die increase, plus it’s more chances to hit to land a maneuver.

SB radiates light, so you won’t be sneaking when it’s active, or taking advantage of characters without dark vision in dark lighting situations.

And, though this is much better on a gish than on a BM Fighter, it does allow you to still attack when you need your Action to do something else (like give a potion to your downed buddy, or really needing to Dodge for survival). Niche cases, sure, but still a solid advantage over the SB.

[JackPhoenix]

One thing about Scimitar of Speed is that it's one of very few ways (berserker barbarian and quickened GFB/BB are the others) to attack with a bonus action without having to take an Attack action first. That allows you to do things like Dodge and still keep attacking, or use GFB/BB and still get the BA attack. Unfortunately, that's less useful for a fighter who gets more attacks out of their action.

[djreynolds]

I played a half orc battlemaster swashbuckler with a sunsword. He was strength based.

You're dex based, even better. I used duelist style as well. With +5 damage +2 duelist +2 sunsword, everyhit was at least 10 damage.... with 3 attacks +30 at 11th level.

While the guy with GWM is trying to squeeze out advantage... you're doing +10 every hit.

Now throw on some rogue and you are a nightmare in combat, and you can put that high dexterity to use

Throw in shield master and you can dump foes for your friend with GWM

A sunsword is awesome. Take this weapon

[Mikal]

Let’s look at it by the numbers

Scimitar at 11th level
3.5+5+2+2 * 4 = about 50 damage on average, before Battlemaster maneuvers (which you have an extra opportunity to use thanks to your additional attack)

Sunblade at 11th level
4.5+5+2+2 *3 = 40.5 damage on average, with less chances to enhance it.

Unless you’re fighting hordes of undead every day, the scimitar comes out ahead much more than a sunblade, even factoring in that the sunblade does radiant damage over magical slashing.

Plus 4 attacks a round means an extra chance to crit and do more damage.

It gets even more silly if you’re hasted and use action surge for an additional +1 apr and the double number of standard attacks.

Anything a sunblade can do a scimitar of speed does better (minus fighting undead)

I guess you have to ask yourself this: “do I want to be a more effective and cool looking whirlwind of death, or a wannabe Jedi?”

Edit: in the interest of fairness, a sunblade is a rare weapon and the scimitar of speed very rare. So that is a factor in the sunblades favor- likely to get it earlier.

I’d still go for the scimitar

[Yakk]

Sun blade: "Weapon (longsword), rare (requires attunement)"

[CTurbo]

The Scimitar of Speed is THE best printed melee weapon a duelist could have IMO.

Attacking is the best possible way to spend your Bonus action as a duelist. Also, you don't NEED to take the Attack action in order to use the Bonus attack. Use your Action to dash up to the enemy because he was 60ft away? Attack him with your Bonus action.

Go Scimitar of Speed every time.

[EmeraldBoa]

I guess you have to ask yourself this: “do I want to be a more effective and cool looking whirlwind of death, or a wannabe Jedi?”

An excellent question! The sunblade could be quite interesting thematically, but I do so like being a buzzsaw...

Thanks to everyone who answered. :smile: It looks like SoS really is my best option at least mechanically, mostly because it lets me chase things and then STAB THEM IN THE FACE use a manoeuvre as a bonus.

In my initial post I forgot to mention that I planned to take the Manual of Quickness of Action + Sunblade (for my Very Rare item). I ended up making an excel sheet to compare the damage and chance to hit for those two options and the difference isn't huge. As a rule

SoS shines before level 11 (though what are the chances of having a Very Rare at low levels?)
at high levels, or versus high AC, SB + manual is about the same as SoS (for AC 17, SoS only does 3 more points of damage in a full round)
the damage from a Level 11 action + action surge is about the same (about 2-3 points higher for SB)

...so if you factor in the manual they're about the same, at least in terms of raw damage. The manual does give me +1 to my battlemaster DC (and all other DEX stuff), though.


in the interest of fairness, a sunblade is a rare weapon and the scimitar of speed very rare. So that is a factor in the sunblades favor- likely to get it earlier.
I might give my DM both options and let him choose, if he doesn't murder me first for minmaxing.

[Lille]

Alternatively, see if you can convince your DM to give you a Sun Blade of Speed.