Should Ranged Weapon Attacks Use Wisdom?

[Amechra]

My reasoning goes like this: Perception is a Wisdom-related skill. When it comes to hitting things with a bow/crossbow/sling, shouldn't how good your senses are trump how flexible you are?

The big changes I can see:

1) Rangers, Sun-Soul Monks, and Kensei would be able to choose to focus on either Dexterity or Wisdom as their primary stat, like how Paladins can choose to focus on Strength vs. Charisma.
2) Rogues would be a bit more MAD if they wanted to keep on doing their standard "shortbow + bonus action Hide" combat strategy. I feel like this is OK, since Stealth Expertise plus fighting at range would let them get away with not pushing Dexterity to the max ASAP.
3) Clerics and Druids would have a strong incentive to use bows and crossbows. I don't know how to feel about this.

Am I missing anything that would make this a bad idea?

[Man_Over_Game]

Just ranged weapons? Not Finesse weapons?

Hmm...I could see it working. Rogues would be hit hard, but adjusting their Sneak Attack die to a 1d8 would be more than enough to compensate.

[MaxWilson]

My reasoning goes like this: Perception is a Wisdom-related skill. When it comes to hitting things with a bow/crossbow/sling, shouldn't how good your senses are trump how flexible you are?

Sure, maybe, but fine motor skills and precision trumps how good your senses are, and Dexterity includes fine motor skills and precision.

IMO Perception is Wisdom-related primarily because Wisdom helps you keep focused and pay attention to what's around you, but it's normal and natural to pay attention to a target you're shooting at--more Wisdom helps less than more Dexterity.

Plus, it's tradition. The fact that Dexterity boosts your ranged weapon to-hit has always been part of (A)D&D, and it's part of how we define Dexterity to ourselves in the first place. {That which helps you aim a longbow} ⊆ Dexterity.

[NaughtyTiger]

Having hit the archery range earlier this week, I would strongly disagree.

The target is bright and visible, I guarantee that I passed that perception check.

Dexterity is a measure of eye-hand coordination. Real-world science shows that well practiced muscle memory bypasses the cognitive centers of the brain...

[stoutstien]

I've used a feat for a while that allows Wis ranged weapon attack rolls for a while and the game hasn't exploded.

[LordCdrMilitant]

As a person who did/does shooting with a variety of implements, I agree, I don't think DEX is the proper skill for shooting. I don't ever really associate my dexterity [which is poor] with my ability to shoot accurately.

That said, WIS definitely isn't the right skill for shooting either.


I can see arguments for almost any characteristic except Charisma, and none of them are really good or fully encompass shooting.

Honestly, I don't think STR is really a good skill for melee either. As a damage governor, sure, but as ability to hit I think DEX or just general combat knowledge and experience is definitely more important.

[Man_Over_Game]

Having hit the archery range earlier this week, I would strongly disagree.

The target is bright and visible, I guarantee that I passed that perception check.

Dexterity is a measure of eye-hand coordination. Real-world science shows that well practiced muscle memory bypasses the cognitive centers of the brain...

But if we're talking realism, muscle strength plays a factor, too.

A scrawny kid with 6 Strength could shoot a Longbow with 14 Dexterity, and have that shot deal as much damage as a guy wielding a Longsword.

Point I'm trying to make is that realism isn't always beneficial.

[VelixNobody]

To quote the infamous Wyatt Earp:


“The most important lesson I learned... was the winner of a gunplay usually was the man who took his time. The second was that, if I hoped to live long on the frontier, I would shun flashy trick-shooting grandstand play—as I would poison.”

Earp also stressed the need for constant practice, whereas a low Wisdom score would seem to indicate someone too careless or impatient to do so.

[MaxWilson]

But if we're talking realism, muscle strength plays a factor, too.

A scrawny kid with 6 Strength could shoot a Longbow with 14 Dexterity, and have that shot deal as much damage as a guy wielding a Longsword.

Point I'm trying to make is that realism isn't always beneficial.

And muscle strength is a factor in all Dexterity-related tasks, ergo Dexterity is partly measuring muscle strength and fine control.

Strength and Dexterity are measuring different kinds of muscle strength.

[da newt]

Lord CDR: are you referring to shooting stationary targets from a stationary shooting position at a range, or combat shooting (moving and reacting quickly while the 'target' tries to avoid being hit and returns fire)?

I'm no expert, but I'd think combat shooting would absolutely be primarily DEX.



For the OP: I believe combat with ranged weapons being primarily a skill of reaction time, hand eye coordination, balance, etc makes it logical that DEX is the governing stat.

[Mellack]

I know that when I play darts, I can clearly see the bullseye ring. Yet I rarely hit it. Seems there must be a lot more than perception involved. I am guessing it might have something to do with motor skills.

[NaughtyTiger]

But if we're talking realism, muscle strength plays a factor, too....
Point I'm trying to make is that realism isn't always beneficial.

I entirely agree. However, the OP made the "realism" argument by saying the ability to see is more important that the ability to control one's body movement.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm no expert, but I'd think combat shooting would absolutely be primarily DEX.

Strength. There is NO ONE alive who can consistently and accurately shoot a longbow with a draw as heavy as those indicated by the Mary Rose salvage effort.

Prior to that salvage, there were lots of people who'd swear up and down that bows with a draw heavier than 80 pounds were nonsensical exaggerations in the historical record, because without a modern pulley system to provide a rest, no one was strong enough to shoot such a bow in accurately and consistently in combat.

When we actually examined the real bows, the LIGHTEST were around 120 lb draw. They went up from there, way up. The skeletons show adjustments and deformations that no one alive has, to deal with the stress of regularly practicing and shooting such a bow.

It took more muscle to use such a bow than to use a melee weapon.

[NaughtyTiger]

by the Mary Rose salvage effort.

great now i have to look that up

[LordCdrMilitant]

Lord CDR: are you referring to shooting stationary targets from a stationary shooting position at a range, or combat shooting (moving and reacting quickly while the 'target' tries to avoid being hit and returns fire)?

I'm no expert, but I'd think combat shooting would absolutely be primarily DEX.

For the OP: I believe combat with ranged weapons being primarily a skill of reaction time, hand eye coordination, balance, etc makes it logical that DEX is the governing stat.

I'm not a soldier, so no.


That said, the differences between range/practice conditions and field conditions is the whole "they're shooting back at you", which handling would be a factor of WIS. And the dealing with moving targets is observation and prediction, which would be INT. Technically, it's highly practiced so that you have it so highly practiced you can make the associated predictions instantaneously, like having a lookup table instead of computing the lead every time, but anyway...

Shooting accurately is a matter of hand eye coordination, but I'm not convinced it's a matter of balance. Being steady is really the most important thing to making accurate fire, and at least I don't imagine any situation where balance is relevant being particularly conducive to stability.

[djreynolds]

IMO humbly

Your training is your weapon proficiency
Your ability to use it is dex
Your experience is your proficiency bonus... could be considered wisdom.

I might let a player argue he could use their wisdom bonus in place of their proficiency bonus, which ever is higher.

[Mellack]

Strength. There is NO ONE alive who can consistently and accurately shoot a longbow with a draw as heavy as those indicated by the Mary Rose salvage effort.

.

You might want to look up a man by the name of Joe Gibbs. He has video of doing that. He has one with Tod's Workshop where he shows some pretty good grouping with a 160# longbow.

[Dienekes]

As a person who did/does shooting with a variety of implements, I agree, I don't think DEX is the proper skill for shooting. I don't ever really associate my dexterity [which is poor] with my ability to shoot accurately.

That said, WIS definitely isn't the right skill for shooting either.


I can see arguments for almost any characteristic except Charisma, and none of them are really good or fully encompass shooting.

Honestly, I don't think STR is really a good skill for melee either. As a damage governor, sure, but as ability to hit I think DEX or just general combat knowledge and experience is definitely more important.

So this hits on a problem with DND, the need to streamline things into a single ability and how these abilities overlap in strange and nonsensical ways.

For example, Dex has been described as precision. Which, if that’s the case, what the hell is your Proficiency bonus? Dex is also your agility, manual dexterity, and balance. None of which really have anything to do with each other. It’s just stuff your body does that isn’t strength or endurance. Only balance, speed, body control are definitely effected by your Str. Just different muscle groups.

Which brings me to ranged weapons. I’m not an archer or a sharpshooter by any means. But I’ve loosed a few arrows and shot guns. And as far as I can tell it’s all just practice. Your manual dexterity is irrelevant as is your agility and balance. You can make a case for your perception and awareness. I guess. But it’s far more about practice and knowing where your arrow is going to go based on environmental factors.

At least for me. I’m not an archer.

But I have practiced swordsmanship a lot. And as far as I can tell the important traits for wielding a longsword and a renaissance era rapier are these:

Strength: determines how hard and fast you can swing and how easy it is to go through your opponents blade. Since swinging the blade itself is not exactly hard, strength can actually mean a lot for your ability to actually hit the opponent. I won’t say higher strength means more accuracy exactly. But I would say the higher your strength the less accurate you need to be. Like to give an example a common form of attacking is a strike in such a way that you catch the opponents blade on your own and use superior positioning to turn it aside and have your own attack work. Anyone can do this. Weak or strong. But the stronger person has a longer area of the blade where they have the leverage to turn it. There is a lot of fine-tuned things like that where being strong would just make the technique so much easier to perform. So I guess I can see why Strength is the accuracy stat. Even if it’s not 100% right.

Physical Build: This is really a modifier on Strength. While stronger is usually better, your body determines how strong you can be. The famous example is Arnold Schwarzenegger has to loose muscle mass and strength to play Conan because his arms got in the way of his ability to use the sword. While at all times he was still not as strong as Halfthor Bjornsson playing Gregor Clegane who didn’t really have that problem as much because he has a much bigger frame to work with. Regardless, your body determines at what point you start getting diminishing returns on Strengths effect on your swordsmanship.

Manual dexterity: really only important for feinting and quick rotations of the sword. But it is incredibly important for that one thing. Weapons where that is a more important part of the fight, like modern fencing has developed entire movesets off of flicks of the wrist. Often in ways that wouldn’t actually kill people if hit, or even slow them down much. But that’s not the point of modern fencing. So if your D&D character wanted to move around like a modern fencer, Dex might be the most important thing. Even if it’s not the most historically realistic for trying to kill people. But then this is D&D, not real life.

Correct body positioning/repositioning: do this wrong and all your strength doesn’t matter nearly as much. I suppose this is either also just proficiency or maybe Dex. Being light on your feet and willing to move about is the difference between finding the perfect opening to strike, or getting yourself parried easily.

Reach: everything is easier the longer your arms. As a big guy with a decent reach, I’ve won a fair few bouts against people I know have better technique because that extra couple inches gets them.

Endurance: really just always important. Holding up weapons can be tiring. Especially one-handed weapons like the rapier. You don’t build your arm endurance and everything you do just devolves into nothing far quicker than people realize.

So if we were trying to do some kind of “realistic” D&D fight system. It would be some strange thing like Str to accuracy when using a strike or a thrust when someone is trying to parry you. But your maximum effective strength can be anywhere from +3 to +5 depending on a randomized stat you get at character creation.

Strength to AC when parrying most anything, except the incredibly light modern fencing swords where your strength is pretty much unnecessary and the whole thing devolves into reaction time.

Dex gets added to attempts to feint. Or when making some kind of maneuver movement to find a better position.

And Con checks to determine if you can remain at peak fighting capacity every few rounds. With penalties based on your max carry capacity. Weapons held in two hands having half the penalty, and weapons held up and in front of you like a rapier taking maybe 1.5x the penalty.

I think we can all agree this would be completely against the tenets of 5e D&D. Which leaves us with: well which of the 6 stats makes the most sense?

And honestly I don’t really have the answer. I think Str works well enough for melee weapons. For archery I’m a bit less certain Dex is correct enough. But I get that people want to play Legolas, who was clearly a Dex build. So why not?

[Aimeryan]

Dexterity in 5e seems to also include agility, despite these things being quite different. Dexterity is about skillfully performing a task, which is represented in 5e by Proficiency Bonus.

So, should the stat be called 'Agility', instead? Well, agility is derived from mainly four sources: Reflexes, Strength, Mass, Experience. You need the reflexes to start the movement in good time, the strength-to-weight ratio to accelerate quickly enough, and the experience to know in which directions to move and at what timing. Lets look at these in turn for 5e;


Reflexes could be said to be represented by Training Proficiencies in 5e. Feats such as Heavy Armor Mastery and Polearm Mastery could also play into this.
Strength is already a primary stat; available at Point Buy to assign.
Mass (Weight) is currently a stat you choose at character creation within racial limits.
Experience is represented by the Proficiency Bonus stat in 5e.

Therefore, we don't need a primary stat called 'Agility', either. It could, however, be a derived stat, which is then used in place of the previous Dexterity stat for stuff like Saving Throws and AC. For Skills, choose another primary stat that fits - Acrobatics, Str; Stealth, Wis; etc.

That said, there are problems here regarding Strength and Weight in regard to the races; if the lightweight races are just as strong as the heavyweight races then they would be more agile. This could be offset by allowing Weight to also affect Hit Points and things such as grappling and shoving. Maybe lower the Strength limit from 20 to 16 for smaller races (and compensate somewhere else if balance is a concern).

~~~

In regards specifically to the OP question, I would use Strength as the primary stat used for ranged weapon attacks, along with the Proficiency Bonus. The faster the projectile the easier it is to lead and the harder it is for the enemy to dodge.

[Chronos]

Picture a person who can't stop their hands from shaking. Is that person going to be very good at shooting? Well, maybe, if they've put a great deal of practice into it, and can loose the arrow (or pull the trigger or whatever) right at the exactly right moment of their hand-shakes... but they'll certainly have a much harder time of it than someone whose hands don't shake.

Do unsteady hands represent low Wis, or low Dex?

[stoutstien]

Picture a person who can't stop their hands from shaking. Is that person going to be very good at shooting? Well, maybe, if they've put a great deal of practice into it, and can loose the arrow (or pull the trigger or whatever) right at the exactly right moment of their hand-shakes... but they'll certainly have a much harder time of it than someone whose hands don't shake.

Do unsteady hands represent low Wis, or low Dex?

Probably low Con.

[RickAsWritten]

IMO humbly

Your training is your weapon proficiency
Your ability to use it is dex
Your experience is your proficiency bonus... could be considered wisdom.

I might let a player argue he could use their wisdom bonus in place of their proficiency bonus, which ever is higher.

This is concise and elegant. Very well put.

[Zotharius]

My reasoning goes like this: Perception is a Wisdom-related skill. When it comes to hitting things with a bow/crossbow/sling, shouldn't how good your senses are trump how flexible you are?

The big changes I can see:

1) Rangers, Sun-Soul Monks, and Kensei would be able to choose to focus on either Dexterity or Wisdom as their primary stat, like how Paladins can choose to focus on Strength vs. Charisma.
2) Rogues would be a bit more MAD if they wanted to keep on doing their standard "shortbow + bonus action Hide" combat strategy. I feel like this is OK, since Stealth Expertise plus fighting at range would let them get away with not pushing Dexterity to the max ASAP.
3) Clerics and Druids would have a strong incentive to use bows and crossbows. I don't know how to feel about this.

Am I missing anything that would make this a bad idea?

So from a gameplay balancing perspective... tbh i didnt put much thought into it but I'm sure it wouldnt be too gamebreaking with a couple homebrew changes here or there.

As for the reasoning behind the idea, if you want a translation of realism to DnD ability heres how I see combat.

Melee weapons - Strength = Power behind the attack = Damage. Dexterity = Precision muscle control and hand-eye coordination = accuracy.

Ranged weapons - Strength = Power behind thrown weapons or increased draw strength with bows adding force to the shot = Damage. Dexterity = Precision muscle control and hand-eye coordination = accuracy.

There have been arguments for Wisdom in relation to combat experience, intuition based on enemy movements, and such other things. Here is my take on that.

Combat experience = Player Character experience = Character level = Proficiency bonus and added class skills. That sort of wraps all of those concepts up in one neat package imo.

Side note: Int and Wis I believe have been included in a few different ways as far as boosting combat ability in the form of certain subclass abilities. The first to come to mind would be the XGTE Inquisitive Rogue subclass, which makes use of both Wis(insight) and Int(investigation) to bolster combat prowess.

Side note 2: When it comes to bows, the fact that they can be crafted with different draw strengths means if you really wanted, a mechanic could be incorprated to make a maximum strength-to-damage cap or a strength requirement to use effectively based on the poundage of the bow. The range of the bow could also be determined in the same way. But changes such as these and the Strength-to-damage / Dex-to-hit archetype, I mentioned above would probably disrupt game balance and more importantly FUN for most people. Sometimes realism just isn't worth it.

[CapnWildefyr]

Well, Wisdom is not eyesight, so would it really apply? Str, Dex, and Con are the physical attributes. As MaxWilson said Wis = your ability to distinguish what you are seeing and to understand it. In the PH Wisdom = "how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition." I can be perceptive as "all getout" about someone charging at me with a glaive and still not be able to hit him with a handful of rocks. Dex "measures agility, reflexes, and balance," which is ranged combat.

If you move ranged weapon bonuses to Wis, would you then add Int bonuses to melee combat, because if you're smart you know when and where to strike? You could apply the same logic to AC for Wis and Int. Would Int or Wis apply to stealth too? You could make arguments for that. I don't think anything would be totally broken but it does break the pattern that physical stats apply to physical tasks. I would avoid making the change.

Is there a specific issue you are trying to resolve?

For what it's worth, there have been strength bows in previous editions that gave damage bonuses (at least) based on Str. I can't recall if they also gave to-hit bonuses.

[Aimeryan]

But changes such as these and the Strength-to-damage / Dex-to-hit archetype, I mentioned above would probably disrupt game balance and more importantly FUN for most people. Sometimes realism just isn't worth it.

In the current incarnation this is true, even if it doesn't need to be.

One goal, perhaps THE goal of 5e, was to make things simpler. Now, I think sometimes WotC went more in the direction of lazy/sparser rather than simpler, but the idea is there. This is why we lost things that added verisimilitude but also added complexity, like flat-footed AC.

Ok, so why simpler? One of the common requests and market niches not being fulfilled by 3.5e was to reduce time on mechanical derivation so that people could have shorter sessions or perhaps to shift the time towards progressing the narrative, instead (often called 'casual'). The idea here is that figuring out the result of non-simple things, even if that is just 'A + B + C/D', takes a lot more time than something you don't need to work out at all for Humans - i.e., just 'A'. So, simpler is more fun when the processing is done by Humans, even though you lose a lot of verisimilitude.

Wait... why Humans? Well, there is another way to process mechanical interactions; computers. Up until fairly recently we have had essentially two types of games; Human-games and Computer-games. D&D tabletop is a Human-game, Neverwinter Nights is a Computer-game. You have one or the other. The advantage of Human-games is that the Human DM can go off the rails and each group can make up their own content easily, as well as more direct Human-Human interaction. The advantage of Computer-games is advanced mechanics and easy long-distance interaction between players. Both can have great visuals and music, etc.

In recent times a third option has started to creep in; Computer-assisted Human-games. Some examples are the XCom boardgame, Mansions Of Madness (Second Edition), and Expedition. These use an app compatible with pretty much any smartphone or tablet to do the heavy-lifting mechanics-wise. Could this be a solution to saving time in D&D while still having complex mechanics that have greater verisimilitude? Maybe.

[Dienekes]

Well, Wisdom is not eyesight, so would it really apply? Str, Dex, and Con are the physical attributes. As MaxWilson said Wis = your ability to distinguish what you are seeing and to understand it. In the PH Wisdom = "how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition." I can be perceptive as "all getout" about someone charging at me with a glaive and still not be able to hit him with a handful of rocks. Dex "measures agility, reflexes, and balance," which is ranged combat.


Just a point. Agility, reflexes, and balance are very much not ranged combat. None of them have anything to do with it. That’s kind of the problem some people have.

But it does bring up the point that your balance is very important for not falling down. Which is odd since a lot of knockdown effects are Strength saving throws.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Just a point. Agility, reflexes, and balance are very much not ranged combat. None of them have anything to do with it. That’s kind of the problem some people have.

But it does bring up the point that your balance is very important for not falling down. Which is odd since a lot of knockdown effects are Strength saving throws.

Balance while aiming your own bow is one thing, balance while resisting an active force (someone/something pushing you) is another.

You can maintain your balance against a shove through nimbleness or sheer strength (the rules support this in standard cases, although there are exceptions that force strength saves) but being nimble is unlikely to help your balance against, say, a torrent of water from a spell like Tidal Wave.

I also disagree on your first assessment. Combat Rounds are 6 seconds, as in all the turns happen simultaneously. You're not shooting at stationary targets, you're shooting moving targets who are around your allies while they're also moving and you might also be moving. You might even be attacked while aiming, and having someone directly in front of you is certainly distracting enough to throw your aim of.

[micahaphone]

Now I want to play some high wisdom low dex character who is eagle eyed and sees every threat on the horizon, but shakes like he's in withdrawal and has jerky movement. The worst person to give a crossbow to, but he sure can spot the target!

[CapnWildefyr]

Just a point. Agility, reflexes, and balance are very much not ranged combat. None of them have anything to do with it. That’s kind of the problem some people have.

But it does bring up the point that your balance is very important for not falling down. Which is odd since a lot of knockdown effects are Strength saving throws.

Reflexes and agility can be very important for ranged combat, it just depends on what you're doing. I partly agree with you, If you're one member of 50 bowmen, you're not necessarily aiming for an individual in the opposing army, you're aiming at the group. Technique and patience, not reflexes. Now, consider trying to hit someone with a thrown knife or arrow in the middle of a scrum. You've got a split second to get the knife/arrow behind his shield when he leaves an opening. Slow reflexes = miss for sure. Now, that's one example, there can be a dozen arguing either way. Just saying you need to pick one stat or the other, making composite skills just makes it more complicated. Dex is as legit as str.

For strength or dex vs knockdown, I see your point there, but again it can go either way. Are you resisting the force, or dodging it/dealing with it? I've done that with shield master feat, if you try to shield bash someone down (specifically so you can attack same round at advantage, not next round at advantage) I call for an opposed STR check, although I don't allow the 'defender' to knock down the attacker (otherwise, it ends up as a free attack for someone). It works fine but it does make combat slow down. [Yeah, whole threads on the shield bash before or after your attacks, that was my compromise for the ambiguity of the RAW on it.]

I guess you could let players pick S or D but then is that just more complicated with little impact except to make it easier for players to hit/save?.

[Dienekes]

I also disagree on your first assessment. Combat Rounds are 6 seconds, as in all the turns happen simultaneously. You're not shooting at stationary targets, you're shooting moving targets who are around your allies while they're also moving and you might also be moving. You might even be attacked while aiming, and having someone directly in front of you is certainly distracting enough to throw your aim of.

None of that counters my initial point. Archers and trick shooters hit moving targets all the time, their dexterity is not really a part of it. And a big guy getting into your face to throw off your shot is modeled by that big guy providing cover to those behind him.

Sure Agility is important on the battlefield to move around and avoid points where your shot could be thrown off. That’s why Dex is part of your AC.

Now reflexes, eh maybe. But it would be based on a specific situation of doing a quick shot off the cuff. Which for the record would be the same situation where reflexes would have to be used regardless of what the weapon is. Even a throwing axe. Which is Strength.

[ProsecutorGodot]

None of that counters my initial point. Archers and trick shooters hit moving targets all the time, their dexterity is not really a part of it. And a big guy getting into your face to throw off your shot is modeled by that big guy providing cover to those behind him.
And your ability to overcome that is better measured in giving your Dexterity bonus to hit rather than your Wisdom, being able to see the people behind him doesn't help you hit them, but being generally dextrous enough to adjust your aim around him without losing accuracy does. My point here was also about the Disadvantage of having someone next to you, likely because they threaten your ability to properly move and aim rather than being a physical obstacle, this line of thought it more proven than dismissed by your cover argument because cover applies regardless of whether they're 5ft away from you in the path of the target or 30ft.

I know real world comparisons are generally poor, but I consider myself to have pretty good eyesight and know for certain that my dexterity is average at best, I'm not concerned about seeing the target, I can see it just fine, I'm concerned about whether I'm able to adjust myself in hitting it.


Sure Agility is important on the battlefield to move around and avoid points where your shot could be thrown off. That’s why Dex is part of your AC.
Again, this more supports an argument that Dexterity, being a stat that's important to keeping your aim straight, would be used for ranged attacks. Your AC has nothing to do with it, just because it uses your Dexterity as a measure of your ability to dodge doesn't mean that the AC bonus also communicates your ability to aim, that wouldn't make sense.

Dexterity does too much, but I'm hesitant to say that anything it does could be better represented with a different ability score.


Now reflexes, eh maybe. But it would be based on a specific situation of doing a quick shot off the cuff. Which for the record would be the same situation where reflexes would have to be used regardless of what the weapon is. Even a throwing axe. Which is Strength.

Obviously its not a perfect example (we know weak but dextrous people shouldn't realistically be able to draw their bow at all) but the combination of things together is what makes Dexterity a better representation than Wisdom. Wisdom really only covers one aspect of ranged combat (it's not technically Wisdom either, it's Perception) and Dexterity covers several.

[Tanarii]

Nope.

Dexterity affecting missile fire is what defines the ability in D&D. That was it's purpose originally. Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, they were primarily there to define the XP bonus or penalty. Strength didn't even give a bonus to hit.

But dexterity's primary purpose was to give a bonus or penalty to missile fire, and apparently however the hell initiative worked in Chainmail.
Dexterity applies to both manual speed and conjuration. It will indicate the character’s missile ability and speed with actions such as firing first, getting off a spell, etc.
Book One: Men and Magic p11

[Zotharius]

Just a point. Agility, reflexes, and balance are very much not ranged combat. None of them have anything to do with it. That’s kind of the problem some people have.

To be honest, I think a large source of confusion is simply how people are defining the term "Dexterity" The literal definition is this: "Readiness and grace in physical activity. Especially: skill and ease in using the hands" the second definition listed in the dictionary is "Mental skill or quickness"

In regards to ranged combat I think the important things to note are "skill and ease in using the hands" as well as "mental skill or quickness". In aiming a firing a bow accurately, the skill lies in both your hands and your mind. Hand-eye coordination is a synergy of your hands and mind working together. The combination of mental quickness and "Readiness and grace in physical activity" pretty much describes your reflexes. Thinking about Dexterity in this light it seems pretty clear to me that it is the obvious choice for using ranged weapons, which is why every game I can personally think of uses that same stat for it. Espescially when you look up the literal definition of "wisdom"

[Tanarii]

In 5e it's defined as:

Dexterity
Measures: Physical agility, reflexes, balance, poise

DEXTERITY
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

[micahaphone]

Sleight of hand is normally dex, yeah? That's the closest skill to aiming imo

[SpikeFightwicky]

While we're at it, if "perception" should dictate ranged attacks, isn't there also an argument that Wisdom should also apply to melee attacks? If a skilled combatant has movement that can be "insighted", you should be able to "predict" the best place for your sword to go to hit them based on where you think they're moving. Finding and exploiting the weak spot in someone's armor/carapace is all stuff you can argue is perception based. If so, then you might as well make all weapon attacks wisdom based.

[Zotharius]

In 5e it's defined as:

Dexterity
Measures: Physical agility, reflexes, balance, poise

DEXTERITY
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

Yes and 5e defines Wisdom as:

Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

Since many people here want to use real life comparisons and arguments, I used the literal definition.

Many people also want to say perceptiveness is more akin to the skills used to fire a bow accurately...

This is via Websters:
Perceptiveness
The ability to understand inner qualities or relationships.

Personally that just doesn't sound like it relates to the physical ability to fire a bow accurately.

Now everyone knows agility is being able to move swiftly and easily. Ok sure I get the argument here but lets look at the word "poise" that 5e included in their definition of Dexterity.

This is via Websters:
Poise
To hold or carry in equilibrium.
To hold supported or suspended without motion motion in a steady position.
To put into readiness.
To become drawn up into readiness.

...Sounds an awful lot like drawing back the string of a bow and holding it steady to take aim doesn't it? And as for the intuition arguments.. Honestly those concepts seem to be based on battle experience or even training experience. Experience... which characaters gain as they adventure and as they gain levels, their proficiency bonus also increases..

[Zotharius]

While we're at it, if "perception" should dictate ranged attacks, isn't there also an argument that Wisdom should also apply to melee attacks? If a skilled combatant has movement that can be "insighted", you should be able to "predict" the best place for your sword to go to hit them based on where you think they're moving. Finding and exploiting the weak spot in someone's armor/carapace is all stuff you can argue is perception based. If so, then you might as well make all weapon attacks wisdom based.

And hence the implementation of the Inquisitive Roguish Archetype. And I do agree with you but as a side note the idea of a skilled combatant being able to "insight" and "predict" during a fight would as I've said in my previous comments, be related to their combat experience. As a character gains combat experience they level up and become more accurate and more deadly though their Proficiency bonus as well as added subclass features that complement the style of combat that the particular character engages in.

[Damon_Tor]

Bow hunter here.

There is an element of spatial reasoning required if you're shooting at various distances because the projectile always moves in an arc, which means being able to accurately judge distances is an important skill. You also need to have a solid understanding of the speed at which your projectile travels so you can lead a moving target. However, because both of these elements are weapon-specific (the arc of a longbow and the speed the arrow travels will be very different than those for a crossbow, or sling, etc) I would roll those ideas into "weapon proficiency" and leave it there.

[djreynolds]

In 5e it's defined as:

Dexterity
Measures: Physical agility, reflexes, balance, poise

DEXTERITY
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

Awesome pic???

I remember MechaViking suggested dexterity to hit for all attacks and strength for damage (I like it)

But as awesome as it sounds it would demand more ASI I feel to support this

Dexterity can simply be seen as you said... muscle memory and refined

Strength is power

IRL with American football quarterback as an example or even a pitcher in baseball, these guys cannot be muscle bound. Look at quarterback versus say a running back

With all respect look at Tim Tebow, it was said he was too muscular for the quarterback position and he lacked "touch" and finesse when throwing at the professional level.

Tom Brady works out with bands!!!! He isn't a ripped body builder, but is surely dexterous. He surely has a very high football IQ and years of wisdom.

It too bad wisdom cannot affect your proficiency bonus because this is where I would allow it to affect a PC.

New feat

Zen Archery, you can use your wisdom or intelligence modifier in place of your proficiency bonus with all ranged attacks, or which ever is higher... at best its a +1 over the proficiency bonus until level 13 and it costs a feat

[Bigmouth]

I absolutely think ranged attacks should normally be based off of Wisdom. There is a ton of perception based information being processed in shooting, especially so at longer ranges. Distance needs to be accurately assessed. Movement of target. Crosswinds. Elevation differences. Drop rate of your projectile. Flight speed. The steadiest hand in the west will miss every shot they take if they cannot process that information. Perception is so important that snipers have spotters with them just to help with that part of shooting. Bob Munden, Jerry Milculek, Annie Oakley, Tom Knapp not one of them was an acrobat or displayed any relation to the other aspects of dexterity. They were just amazing shots.

If it wasn't for D&D training, I doubt anyone would ever argue for shooting skills being governed by a physical attribute. But...we do play D&D and we all have been cursed with that relationship. Originally it was nothing more than the stat used for shooting ****, but Shooting **** didn't sound good as a stat. So while I hate it being related to Dexterity, I can deal with it being there. Probably best for game balance overall, but give certain classes and/or subclasses the ability to do it with Wisdom.

Also, just a thought, Dexterity for close range. Wisdom for long.

[sayaijin]

Awesome pic???

I remember MechaViking suggested dexterity to hit for all attacks and strength for damage (I like it)

But as awesome as it sounds it would demand more ASI I feel to support this


We could make all attacks a combination of Wis and Dex and then use Str for damage. This would represent not only muscle memory but also an understanding of your opponent. Of course the strength with which you swing your weapon or pull your bow still represents damage potential.

Of course the problem with this is it's complexity. Let's recognize that proficiency with a weapon represents a lot of things, including the experience to know where an arrow will fly or how to hold a war hammer. At the end of the day simplicity won out, and we use two stats for all martial attacks and damage.

[Maelynn]

IMO humbly

Your training is your weapon proficiency
Your ability to use it is dex
Your experience is your proficiency bonus... could be considered wisdom.

I might let a player argue he could use their wisdom bonus in place of their proficiency bonus, which ever is higher.

Exactly this. I agree that what has been argued as being Wisdom, would fall under proficiency bonus. Dexterity is still the main stat ( with the given arguments of hand-eye coordination, akin to sleight of hand, etc) and as such the one to give the bonus.

It's an interesting thought to allow a player to use their WIS modifier instead of proficiency.. but that usefulness would be limited to the lower tiers, as proficiency eventually hits the +5/+6 range. Perhaps it could be improved in the higher tiers by allowing half your WIS to be added, rather than entirely replacing proficiency bonus. Like Guided Arrow (choose prof bonus or WIS) and at level 10 Improved Guided Arrow (add half your WIS, rounded down)?

[djreynolds]

It's an awesome conversation first off.

IMO when it comes to say shooting or throwing anything.

There is an educational aspect. Weapon proficiency.

There is experience. Proficiency bonus based on experience and leveling up. (IRL this could be considered wisdom)

And then we have this... your mind telling your body what to do.

Breathing
Balance
slow and controlled movements
Hand eye coordination

These are really aspects of dexterity.

As someone moving up in years I have all the experience in the world. But eyes are not as sharp as when I was young. My touch in my fingers is not what it once was.

I feel the confusion between dexterity and wisdom is perception.

Your physical senses pick up all this stimulus and it's your wisdom that sorts out that information.

Your hearing and vision are physical senses... not an ability. Not defined as wisdom or dexterity.

So perception is your wisdom shifting through all off sensory input.

You can be blind and possibly IRL life have a decent perception. Because you've had to really focus on sifting through all of your sensory input.

It's why being blinded in game for someone who normally relies on vision is such a problem... hence disadvantage.

[Tanarii]

AIM ACTION (proposed new action):
You can use your Wisdom modifier for attack and damage on your next ranged attack roll before the end of your next turn. If you take any other action first, you lose this bonus. If you don't move, you also have advantage on the attack.

That handles the folks that want "finding your zen moment" shooting, as well as those that seem to be thinking of range shooting or famous trick shooters, standing stock still with no one potentially attacking them.

[MThurston]

Most RPG pick a stat for a skill. Be it perception or bow use.

Dex and Eye are used for using ranged weapons. With your Dex being a major player in that game. Why do you ask? Because anyone can wear glasses to improve their sight.

Seeing a target is one thing. Hitting it is another.

A second thing to remeber is this.

Str, Con and Dex are physical traits. You use them to interact with the world physically.

Int, Wis and Cha are part of your inner self. What makes you tick.

So using Wis for ranged would not work in D&D.

[CapnWildefyr]

At some point, we have to remember this is a simulation. There's nothing magical (no pun intended) going on. There's nothing sacred about the stats, they're just stats. But the thing is, 'they' invented Dex to be the one used for missile weapons. It's not about "which stat applies better," as much as "which stat was designed for this?"

They are all just invented numbers that are used when modeling actions and reactions. One game system might use 6 main stats, one may use 4, another 6 main and 3-4 derived stats, whatever. You can call them what you want, but at some point, you concoct a name for a stat and say "well, this applies to A, B, and C." DND ended up with 6 rolled stats, and the one they designed to apply to missile weapon attacks is Dex. If we read too much into it, we'll go round in circles. There's nothing sacred in the name of the stat, or what it's for. Now, if there is something broken in how it works -- that could be a different discussion. But I'm not personally seeing anything broken. Correct me if I am wrong -- I am under the impression that the problem behind the post can be rephrased that the characters have chosen to emphasize other stats, and not dex, so they are not using missile weapons enough? Or don't have enough success with them? Those are character choices and trade-offs, we all have to make them. If I have a low dex PC, and I need a missile weapon, I try to obtain for something magical to fill in the gap. Or I use it anyway and hope I roll high. Or suggest a fellow party member get a bow (or buy one and hand it over).

[pantastic]

As a person who did/does shooting with a variety of implements, I agree, I don't think DEX is the proper skill for shooting. I don't ever really associate my dexterity [which is poor] with my ability to shoot accurately.

That said, WIS definitely isn't the right skill for shooting either.
<snip>
Honestly, I don't think STR is really a good skill for melee either. As a damage governor, sure, but as ability to hit I think DEX or just general combat knowledge and experience is definitely more important.

Agreed. I've also shot (both bows and firearms), as well as done armed combat training (including swords). Ultimately, training beats natural 'stats' probably 90% of the time, or more.


Lord CDR: are you referring to shooting stationary targets from a stationary shooting position at a range, or combat shooting (moving and reacting quickly while the 'target' tries to avoid being hit and returns fire)?

I'm no expert, but I'd think combat shooting would absolutely be primarily DEX.

Speaking from personal experience, people with average coordination can be trained to combat shoot very well. It's more about the training than it is about any inherent 'stat'.


Strength. There is NO ONE alive who can consistently and accurately shoot a longbow with a draw as heavy as those indicated by the Mary Rose salvage effort.
<snip>
It took more muscle to use such a bow than to use a melee weapon.

Again, it's about more than just raw Strength. A 160# average male who practices for 10 years can accurately shoot a much heavier bow than some 260# strongman who has never picked up a bow.

What does that tell us? Again: it's about the training, not about 'stats'.

The problem is: D&D is not designed to reflect 'training.' For combat skills, the only modifier for training is your proficiency bonus. There are a couple of niche things like "Fighting Style" (I'm looking at you, "Archery"), but (as far as I know) 'proficiency' is the only 'standardized' mechanic designed to reflect the benefit of training/experience.

[djreynolds]

I really like these discussions.

5E is awesome, but it has flaws.

You have 3 casting stats, int, wis and chr

4 attack stats str, dex, wis (shillelagh) and chr

But the reality is aside from strength you never really get above 20 to 22. And so at most +6. So bounded accuracy and ability score cap helps out.

I have toyed around with dexterity to hit for all attacks, martial or magical

And strength for all physical damage, casting stat for magical

Weapons such as a longbow would simply have a strength requirement to use it with proficiency, say a 13
Same as a greatsword.

But the game I'm not sure could or needs to support this. And every PC would have to focus on dexterity to really remain relevant, and every build would be the same.

I think 5E is awesome because capped ability scores stops things from getting out of hand. Right, as much as you train, without magical means, a human is still a human and can only do so much.

A hexblade (who sold their soul for this) may have a 20 in charisma for all their attacks, but I got a 16 in strength and dex and that +2 margin doesn't turn the game absurd and the hex blade into an superperson.

But the discussion is great, all expert opinions and real life experience.