Surprise (Surprised?)

[Necrosnoop110]

Ok, so I keep seeing over and over that surprise is a confusing mess. But then I look at the rules and it seems straight forward:


(1) Determine noticing "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception)"

(2) Surprise Condition Those who notice are not surprised, those who fail to notice suffer the surprised condition, all on an individual basis. "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."

What's all the fuss? What am I missing?

[Man_Over_Game]

Ok, so I keep seeing over and over that surprise is a confusing mess. But then I look at the rules and it seems straight forward:



What's all the fuss? What am I missing?

The confusion usually occurs around the ambiguity of Initiative.

For example, say I am Surprising you. When do we roll Initiative? Is it when I attack? When I announce my "Hostile intent" against you? Usually Initiative is rolled when one side notices the other, but that trigger has already passed by the time Surprise is possible.

Ignoring that for now, say you roll higher than me on Initiative. Do you deserve to have your Reaction even though you were Surprised? Why, when I should have the jump on you (as some would say is the intent of Surprise)?


Those are the biggest concerns, mostly addressed through "Figure out how to time your dang initiatives properly", and "It's a fantasy game, giving a means for the loser to come back appeals to both 'fantasy' and 'game', so get over it".

[OldTrees1]

People have assumptions about how surprise works. 5E rebuked all those assumptions. That is the source of the confusion.

It is known that surprise is:
If they did not detect ANY of you, then they are surprised until their initiative.
If they beat your initiative, then they are no longer surprised by the time you act.

But the surprise wearing off before you can take advantage of it is counter intuitive for many.

[Telok]

The occasional instance of people reacting in combat to an undetected ambush before anyone in the ambush takes actions that would initiate combat or reveal the ambush causes consternation. This usually involves the alert feat.

[Demonslayer666]

Throw in hiding and the Alert Feat, and it gets muddy fast.

EG: Invisible archer attacks the party from hiding 600 feet away, and a party member with Alert beats him on Initiative during the first round.

The Alert party member cannot see or hear the attacker, and effectively loses their turn. The party member that goes after the attacker, gets their full turn and beats the guy with Alert in reacting to the attack.

Pretty silly stuff.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Throw in hiding and the Alert Feat, and it gets muddy fast.

EG: Invisible archer attacks the party from hiding 600 feet away, and a party member with Alert beats him on Initiative during the first round.

The Alert party member cannot see or hear the attacker, and effectively loses their turn. The party member that goes after the attacker, gets their full turn and beats the guy with Alert in reacting to the attack.

Pretty silly stuff.

The second party member gets a turn, in which they can neither move nor act due to being surprised. In what sense are they beating their Alert party member in reacting to the attack?

[thoroughlyS]

People from v3.5 also have trouble because they keep thinking of things in v3.5 terms. Back then, there was a "surprise round" which happened before round 1, and some people still think that exists.

[Man_Over_Game]

The biggest source of the confusion comes from when Initiative is supposed to be rolled, which...doesn't really have many great answers. You either do it as:


Surpriser attacks, initiative is rolled for everyone, and...the surpriser eventually gets his attack roll?

Or:

Surpriser doesn't attack, other team eventually gets a successful Perception check (or reveals the ambush somehow) and you roll Initiative as normal.


Talked with someone about it, easiest solution is that whoever initiates the Initiative automatically goes first in the Initiative Order, and then uses their normal Initiative value on following turns. That solves most of the weird hijinks involving Player Agency and Surprise Rules, and When to Roll Initiative, and all that stuff.

[NecessaryWeevil]

People from v3.5 also have trouble because they keep thinking of things in v3.5 terms. Back then, there was a "surprise round" which happened before round 1, and some people still think that exists.

Yep. It's weird how this one rule in particular is burned so deeply into our brains.

[Sorinth]

The confusion usually occurs around the ambiguity of Initiative.

For example, say I am Surprising you. When do we roll Initiative? Is it when I attack? When I announce my "Hostile intent" against you? Usually Initiative is rolled when one side notices the other, but that trigger has already passed by the time Surprise is possible.

Ignoring that for now, say you roll higher than me on Initiative. Do you deserve to have your Reaction even though you were Surprised? Why, when I should have the jump on you (as some would say is the intent of Surprise)?


Those are the biggest concerns, mostly addressed through "Figure out how to time your dang initiatives properly", and "It's a fantasy game, giving a means for the loser to come back appeals to both 'fantasy' and 'game', so get over it".

The rules are pretty clear you establish who is surprised and everyone rolls initiative regardless of whether they were surprised or not.

Although I get why some people don't like how it works when I DM I explain the Alert/High Initiative roll as a 6th sense warning them of danger.

So if an Alert character doesn't see the enemy, their Spidey-sense tingles and can react accordingly. For PCs without Alert who simply won initiative I'll say something like you get that itchy feeling that someone is watching you or the hairs on the back of your next start rising you making you think danger is nearby and that's their turn.

The whole why does someone get to react to the danger is simply because they had that 6th sense alerting them to danger being nearby.

[Demonslayer666]

The second party member gets a turn, in which they can neither move nor act due to being surprised. In what sense are they beating their Alert party member in reacting to the attack?

Fine.... Give the second party member Alert too.

[sithlordnergal]

Its less that the Surprise rules are confusing, and more that they're clunky and cause a lot of dissonance thanks to "Edge Cases" that are actually quite common and easy to occur. For example, lets say you have a Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. The Wizard jumps the gun and states that they're going to cast Hold Person, which calls for initiative. Only they end up going third in the turn order, with the Assassin and two of the targets going before them.

Three people are going before the Wizard, despite the fact that the Wizard is the one that started combat. The Rogue gets to have their turn, despite the fact that moments before initiative was rolled they were going to wait. Two enemies are no longer Surprised, despite the fact that if the Rogue chooses to do hold their action then literally nothing has changed in their current situation and they should still be fully unaware of an ambush and be surprised by it.


And what do you do with that edge case? Do you just wait and do nothing in order to end combat, that way you can roll initiative again and hope you get a better roll? You can, but some people would probably call that metagaming, and it seems a lot more tedious. Because now you have to wait for the DM to decide if/when combat ends with your party doing nothing but waiting and hiding.

Do you just ignore the dissonance? Again, you can...but the dissonance is still there. You still get this weird feeling because the mechanics failed to back up what was happening in the story.

And to make it worse, you have an entire Rogue subclass dedicated to the Surprise mechanics, but none of those mechanics work if you roll poorly on your initiative. If you make an ambush against an enemy, but that enemy goes before your Assassin, you lose all of your features. They're no longer surprised, so no auto-crit, and they technically had a turn before you, so no auto-advantage.


There's a reason I prefer using the old 3.5 Surprise Round, mixed with my own homebrew rule that if you Surprise someone, the person who's action caused initiative to be rolled goes first. Those two rules remove the dissonance problem entirely. You no longer have creatures who are both aware of you and unaware of you at the same time just because they rolled a higher initiative. You no longer have the Wizard taking 18+ seconds to cast a spell that takes about 6 seconds to cast.

[Man_Over_Game]

The rules are pretty clear you establish who is surprised and everyone rolls initiative regardless of whether they were surprised or not.

Although I get why some people don't like how it works when I DM I explain the Alert/High Initiative roll as a 6th sense warning them of danger.

So if an Alert character doesn't see the enemy, their Spidey-sense tingles and can react accordingly. For PCs without Alert who simply won initiative I'll say something like you get that itchy feeling that someone is watching you or the hairs on the back of your next start rising you making you think danger is nearby and that's their turn.

The whole why does someone get to react to the danger is simply because they had that 6th sense alerting them to danger being nearby.

Right, but there's still a single trigger that occurs that starts that process. It's not "The ambush party sees you from 100 feet away! Check for Surprise and roll Initiative"! No, the ambush party would wait for the best moment to strike, which means delaying the Surprise check past the point of when it's first possible to roll.

So what is the trigger, then? The simplest solution I've found is either:

When both parties become aware of a threat.
OR
When someone from one party would intentionally do something that would cause the other party to be aware of a threat.

First option is typically what happens with a normal combat, second is generally what happens with a Surprise situation. Thing is, unless you really want to negate the fact that player said "I Attack" and then...retroactively undo the fact that he said that to accommodate Initiative rules? Like reality warps when you enter combat, like a Final Fantasy game?

Imagine you have a pretty easy scenario, players are under the guise of a Seeming spell inside of the enemy base. The Party Paladin decides he's done enough with sneaking around, and blows the party's cover by saying "I attack!". DM decides that most of the enemies are Surprised. What should the DM do regarding Initiative order?

[Sorinth]

Its less that the Surprise rules are confusing, and more that they're clunky and cause a lot of dissonance thanks to "Edge Cases" that are actually quite common and easy to occur. For example, lets say you have a Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. The Wizard jumps the gun and states that they're going to cast Hold Person, which calls for initiative. Only they end up going third in the turn order, with the Assassin and two of the targets going before them.

Three people are going before the Wizard, despite the fact that the Wizard is the one that started combat. The Rogue gets to have their turn, despite the fact that moments before initiative was rolled they were going to wait. Two enemies are no longer Surprised, despite the fact that if the Rogue chooses to do hold their action then literally nothing has changed in their current situation and they should still be fully unaware of an ambush and be surprised by it.


And what do you do with that edge case? Do you just wait and do nothing in order to end combat, that way you can roll initiative again and hope you get a better roll? You can, but some people would probably call that metagaming, and it seems a lot more tedious. Because now you have to wait for the DM to decide if/when combat ends with your party doing nothing but waiting and hiding.

Do you just ignore the dissonance? Again, you can...but the dissonance is still there. You still get this weird feeling because the mechanics failed to back up what was happening in the story.

And to make it worse, you have an entire Rogue subclass dedicated to the Surprise mechanics, but none of those mechanics work if you roll poorly on your initiative. If you make an ambush against an enemy, but that enemy goes before your Assassin, you lose all of your features. They're no longer surprised, so no auto-crit, and they technically had a turn before you, so no auto-advantage.


There's a reason I prefer using the old 3.5 Surprise Round, mixed with my own homebrew rule that if you Surprise someone, the person who's action caused initiative to be rolled goes first. Those two rules remove the dissonance problem entirely. You no longer have creatures who are both aware of you and unaware of you at the same time just because they rolled a higher initiative. You no longer have the Wizard taking 18+ seconds to cast a spell that takes about 6 seconds to cast.

Does it create anymore cognitive dissonance then having turn based combat?

I mean your last sentence is the perfect example, the whole round is supposed to be 6s, so the wizard is still taking his 6s to cast the spell, it's just that other things are now also happening during that 6s, they aren't all waiting on the wizard to finish before doing something.

Also all the cognitive dissonance can easily be explained away by the high initiative roll being treated as a 6th sense for danger.

[Sorinth]

Right, but there's still a single trigger that occurs that starts that process. It's not "The ambush party sees you from 100 feet away! Check for Surprise and roll Initiative"! No, the ambush party would wait for the best moment to strike, which means delaying the Surprise check past the point of when it's first possible to roll.

So what is the trigger, then? The simplest solution I've found is either:

When both parties become aware of a threat.
OR
When someone from one party would intentionally do something that would cause the other party to be aware of a threat.

First option is typically what happens with a normal combat, second is generally what happens with a Surprise situation. Thing is, unless you really want to negate the fact that player said "I Attack" and then...retroactively undo the fact that he said that to accommodate Initiative rules? Like reality warps when you enter combat, like a Final Fantasy game?

Imagine you have a pretty easy scenario, players are under the guise of a Seeming spell inside of the enemy base. The Party Paladin decides he's done enough with sneaking around, and blows the party's cover by saying "I attack!". DM decides that most of the enemies are Surprised. What should the DM do regarding Initiative order?

The trigger for combat is one side/person deciding to start a fight. The key here is that it's not a case of actually attacking it's a case of declaring that you are about too. Initiative is rolled and everything goes off normally.

In your example the Paladin decides he wants to attack out of the blue, so initiative is rolled. Anyone surprised which frankly in this situation might include the paladin's teammates are surprised.

Also keep in mind everybody's turn is happening simultaneously, so someone who isn't surprised and rolled a higher initiative the paladin sees the paladin draw his weapon/beging to swing his sword/etc... and because of his high initiative moves fast enough to do something before the paladin actually hits someone with the sword.

[Telok]

The trigger for combat is one side/person deciding to start a fight. The key here is that it's not a case of actually attacking it's a case of declaring that you are about too. Initiative is rolled and everything goes off normally.

Which works fine until the person with "intent" stops intending to initiate combat after rolling a low initative. If your alert paladin whips out a sword and casts smite during dinner it gets all awkward when a doppleganger decides not to attack. What's the excuse? "We entered combat time so I knew we were going to be attacked"?

[Man_Over_Game]

The trigger for combat is one side/person deciding to start a fight. The key here is that it's not a case of actually attacking it's a case of declaring that you are about too. Initiative is rolled and everything goes off normally.

In your example the Paladin decides he wants to attack out of the blue, so initiative is rolled. Anyone surprised which frankly in this situation might include the paladin's teammates are surprised.

Also keep in mind everybody's turn is happening simultaneously, so someone who isn't surprised and rolled a higher initiative the paladin sees the paladin draw his weapon/beging to swing his sword/etc... and because of his high initiative moves fast enough to do something before the paladin actually hits someone with the sword.

I think that's an applicable assumption on this specific example, but in a classic Ambush-You-From-Behind-A-Bush scenario, the ambushers generally already have weapons drawn. They generally have the leg-up on the Defenders, either in terms of footing, cover, or at the very least awareness.

Assassin's Hiding, waiting to shoot his crossbow at the Paladin. Paladin is lumbering through the forest using his sword as a machete. Assassin states "I attack", and I guess the assumption is that the Paladin saw *something* that allowed him to not be Surprised?

I'm not talking necessarily about the balance or effectiveness of Surprise - I think it's a fine mechanic normally - I'm talking about how bizarre it is that the Ambusher's decision is what makes the Defender not only be able to detect the Ambusher before they attack, but even act first before that announced attack.

For example:

Determine Stealth:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender".

Determine Surprise:
Defender: Perception Roll 12, not Surprised.

Determine Initiative
Ambusher: Initiative 5
Defender: Initiative 10

Defender (10): "I attack"
Ambusher (5): "I already said I attacked, so I guess I do that."


The Defender wouldn't have gotten to make an attack roll unless the Ambusher decided to attack him. Am I the only person that thinks that's a little...weird?

[Snails]

Which works fine until the person with "intent" stops intending to initiate combat after rolling a low initative. If your alert paladin whips out a sword and casts smite during dinner it gets all awkward when a doppleganger decides not to attack. What's the excuse? "We entered combat time so I knew we were going to be attacked"?

While the RAW is good enough in most situations IMO, I agree that there are scenarios where the mechanics appear to break the narrative logic. Arguing the DM should declare by fiat that the ambusher gave himself away makes the problem worse in my eyes, not better. A ruleset that runs roughshod over narrative logic is "computer gamey" in the worst possible sense.

I am okay with the idea that the intended victim might be lucky enough to be looking in the right direction to thwart something like an Assassination attempt, as represented by a high Initiative roll on the part of the target. But if the ambusher decide he does not to act at all at this point, because the target seems too aware, that should be allowed. It should be understood that if no hostile actions take place and there are no apparent enemies, Initiative simply ends. In some cases, it will be practical to try again in a minute; in others, less so.

The bottom line is characters should act on the information available to them, as if we were playing a roleplaying game.

[OldTrees1]

For example:

Determine Stealth:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender".

Determine Surprise:
Defender: Perception Roll 12, not Surprised.

I am surprised the Defender got both their Passive and their Active Perception to avoid surprise.

[JackPhoenix]

I think that's an applicable assumption on this specific example, but in a classic Ambush-You-From-Behind-A-Bush scenario, the ambushers generally already have weapons drawn. They generally have the leg-up on the Defenders, either in terms of footing, cover, or at the very least awareness.

Assassin's Hiding, waiting to shoot his crossbow at the Paladin. Paladin is lumbering through the forest using his sword as a machete. Assassin states "I attack", and I guess the assumption is that the Paladin saw *something* that allowed him to not be Surprised?

I'm not talking necessarily about the balance or effectiveness of Surprise - I think it's a fine mechanic normally - I'm talking about how bizarre it is that the Ambusher's decision is what makes the Defender not only be able to detect the Ambusher before they attack, but even act first before that announced attack.

For example:

Determine Stealth:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender".

Determine Surprise:
Defender: Perception Roll 12, not Surprised.

Determine Initiative
Ambusher: Initiative 5
Defender: Initiative 10

Defender (10): "I attack"
Ambusher (5): "I already said I attacked, so I guess I do that."


The Defender wouldn't have gotten to make an attack roll unless the Ambusher decided to attack him. Am I the only person that thinks that's a little...weird?

It's not weird, because the Defender knows there's an enemy, and where the enemy is, because for some reason, the GM decided to give him another chance to notice the attacker, even though the Ambusher's stealth was initially successful.

Determine Stealth:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender".

Determine Surprise:
Defender: Failed to notice the Ambusher when the Ambusher rolled his Stealth check, is therefore surprised.

Determine Initiative
Ambusher: Initiative 5
Defender: Initiative 10

Defender (10): "I'm surprised, so I can't do anything, but I've won initiative, so I can use my reaction on Shield, or something"
Ambusher (5): "I already said I attacked, so I guess I do that."

[Sorinth]

Which works fine until the person with "intent" stops intending to initiate combat after rolling a low initative. If your alert paladin whips out a sword and casts smite during dinner it gets all awkward when a doppleganger decides not to attack. What's the excuse? "We entered combat time so I knew we were going to be attacked"?

I'm not sure I understand your scenario. But I assume the Doppleganger has decided to attack the paladin, the DM calls for initiative and the Paladin wins the initiative.

All the information he has is his spider sense is tingling and danger is near. How does he know the person next to him is a doppleganger and should be attacked. Maybe the danger is a hidden assassin hiding about to shoot him with a crossbow?

[Sorinth]

I think that's an applicable assumption on this specific example, but in a classic Ambush-You-From-Behind-A-Bush scenario, the ambushers generally already have weapons drawn. They generally have the leg-up on the Defenders, either in terms of footing, cover, or at the very least awareness.

Assassin's Hiding, waiting to shoot his crossbow at the Paladin. Paladin is lumbering through the forest using his sword as a machete. Assassin states "I attack", and I guess the assumption is that the Paladin saw *something* that allowed him to not be Surprised?

I'm not talking necessarily about the balance or effectiveness of Surprise - I think it's a fine mechanic normally - I'm talking about how bizarre it is that the Ambusher's decision is what makes the Defender not only be able to detect the Ambusher before they attack, but even act first before that announced attack.

For example:

Determine Stealth:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender".

Determine Surprise:
Defender: Perception Roll 12, not Surprised.

Determine Initiative
Ambusher: Initiative 5
Defender: Initiative 10

Defender (10): "I attack"
Ambusher (5): "I already said I attacked, so I guess I do that."


The Defender wouldn't have gotten to make an attack roll unless the Ambusher decided to attack him. Am I the only person that thinks that's a little...weird?

Maybe he saw something, maybe he heard something, maybe it's just a feeling that something isn't quite right.

Regardless there's only 1 Stealth vs Perception check, either the ambusher succeeds or fails to beat the defenders perception, the defender doesn't get a free 2nd chance perception roll. If he succeeds then the defender is surprised and his good initiative simply means he can take reactions because he just happens to have great reaction time that particular day so the Ambusher. So your scenario is

Determine Surprise:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender"

Determine Initiative:
Ambusher: 5
Defender: 10

Defender(10): Defender you are surprised your turn is over,
Ambusher(5): "I attack"

If the Defender has the Alert feat then the last two lines are
Defender(10): Defender you can't see anyone but you get a sense that danger is nearby, what do you do?
- The Defender has a turn, but doesn't see anybody so can't attack. But he can now make that Perception check as his action.
Ambusher(5): "The defender must have seen/heard us, man he reacts fast. I'll do ..."
- The ambusher can do whatever, from his POV it's as if he failed his stealth check.


I would also point out the DM is well within his rights to grant advantage/disadvantage on initiative checks. So if the ambushers have bows drawn already then that's a strong case for them getting advantage on the initiative check. Likewise there's a decent case that the defender should have disadvantage on his initiative because he's performing some other task and is less alert for danger, though I probably wouldn't impose that because it's less fun.

[Snails]

Determine Surprise:
Ambusher: Stealth Roll 11
Defender: Passive Perception 10

Ambusher: "I attack the Defender"

Determine Initiative:
Ambusher: 5
Defender: 10

Defender(10): Defender you are surprised your turn is over,
Ambusher(5): "I attack"

Which is the common case, and this works just fine.

After all, when combat begins on a fair playing field, I expect that my character will get to attack 0 or 1 times before being attacked by my opponent. And when I manage to win Surprise, I expect to attack 1 or 2 times before being attacked by my opponent. That is how Initiative works.

The fly in the ointment is under the less common scenario where the attacker decides (substitute for the last line above):

Ambusher(5): "Oh. He looks like he may be alert? I stay hidden. I do not want to spring my ambush yet."

In the case of a large party of adventurers, if I were DM, that would not be so easy. If you are trying to take advantage of a Surprise situation, you are presumably coordinating with some form of:
"<whisper>Okay, guys? On my mark... Ready. Set. Go!"

But there are non-outlandish scenarios where the character may have the desire and capability to reasonably try for the tasty 2 attacks, e.g. an Invisible Assassin who is not in a hurry.

[Man_Over_Game]

I am surprised the Defender got both their Passive and their Active Perception to avoid surprise.

For some reason, I thought that you rolled a second stealth check to determine Surprise. I forget that the RAW has you save your Stealth roll when you first make your Stealth check.

[Sorinth]

The fly in the ointment is under the less common scenario where the attacker decides (substitute for the last line above):


In the case of a large party of adventurers, if I were DM, that would not be so easy. If you are trying to take advantage of a Surprise situation, you are presumably coordinating with some form of:
"<whisper>Okay, guys? On my mark... Ready. Set. Go!"

But there are non-outlandish scenarios where the character may have the desire and capability to reasonably try for the tasty 2 attacks, e.g. an Invisible Assassin who is not in a hurry.


How is this a problem though? If the attackers decides not to attack because the defenders look too alert and the attackers are still hidden then combat is over. All the players really know is that the DM asked them to make a check and then nothing happened.

Though personally I find the argument a bit dubious to begin with since it's relying on the meta-game knowledge of what the initiative rolls were.

[Tanarii]

Steps of beginning combat are DM determines positions, check for surprise if an attempted ambush, proceed in order of initiative.

Nothing about being or remaining hidden at the start of combat. The surprise check is not a Hiding check. If one side being hidden after initiative was rolled was considered something that you were expected to have to resolve as part of an attempted ambush, they'd have spent considerable time having explaining how to resolve that.

As far as I can tell, everyone on a side launching an ambush is intended to start revealed. Surprise is the advantage you get for successfully attempting an ambush through stealth. Not starting hidden. The thing they spend a lot of time telling you how to resolve is Surprise, and it doesn't say anything about starting off hidden until you take an action.