Ideas for "Knows Whole Spelllist" Base Class Themes?

[Edea]

We have Dread Necromancer, Beguiler and Warmage by default; any other 'theme concepts' IYO that might be interesting enough to revolve a 'cast from spell list' class around?

[Elves]

Summoner, Warder, Seer and ...Transmogrifist? would round out the schools.

[sengmeng]

Still need illusionist and evoker. Or was beguiler illusion? If so I'd suggest mesmerist and kineticist.

[DeTess]

Still need illusionist and evoker. Or was beguiler illusion? If so I'd suggest mesmerist and kineticist.

Warmage is the evoker, and beguiler has most core illusions and enchantments as one package.

[Edea]

Yeah, if we were to go by schools then the ones least covered are probably Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation. Divination runs a bit behind those three.

Beguiler's Enchantment/Illusion, Warmage's Evocation, and Dread Necro's Necromancy.

There's also the possibility of crafting a theme that's not necessarily school-aligned, though that might be significantly more challenging (for example, a 'Time Mage' would pretty clearly have a Transmutation focus, but there might be a lot of Divination, Conjuration, or even Necromancy on its list, as long as it involved manipulating how time behaves both directly and indirectly).

[Grod_The_Giant]

I did that thing (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-%283-5%29&p=16545265)! In addition to the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necro, I added:

A Conjurer, focused on summoning and teleporting.
A "Mage of the Unseen Hand," focused on telekinesis-type effects.
A "Night Soul," focused on stealth and shadow magic.
A Seer, focused on divination.
A Shaper, focused on transformation magic.
A Warden, focused on buff spells

I also wrote fixed-list-caster versions of the Bard, Cleric, and Druid, wrote/rewrote a couple list-expanding PrCs, and added a slow-ritual-magic-generalist base class.

[Edea]

Oh heeey, there we go. Thanks, Grod :)

Was semi-considering trying to make a 'weather-caster' type mage for myself, this helps a lot trying to get a gauge on general spell-list construction.

[Elves]

Only thing I disagree with there is roping teleportation into conjuration. I would base it more off the PF summoner and add in a few conjuration (creation) spells (but ones that actually involve "summoning" objects, not ones that are just code for "creating any kind of cool effect").

[Morphic tide]

With spellcasting, one of the major notes is the lack of anything Divine. The main thoughts I've had are a Druid-type Transmutation/Conjuration specialist that is all the memes force-fed to the player as basically the only strategy they're allowed, alongside a Cleric-type Conjuration specialist that fakes Transmutation effects with possession that acts more or less as canning the Healbot Cleric and forcing it to t2.

[Baron Faey]

In my games I use the following classes. I don't use the "knows every spell on the list" system for them, but these might work as inspiration (I can also post them if there's interest).

Arcane:
Alchemist (transmutation, inspired by the PF class)
Beguiler (enchantment/illusion)
Courtmage (abjuration/divination, based on this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?105751-New-Base-Class-Court-Mage-3-5-PEACH))
Summoner (Conjuration, based on the PF class)
Warmage (Energy conjuration / evocation)

Divine
Healer (Healing, life, anti-undead, plus lesser sneak attack)
Hexer (Debuffs, based on the PF witch)
(Dread) Necromancer (Necromancy)
Priest (alignment and religion based spells, summoning, domains)
Runesmith (buffs)

Wild
Animist (animals, shapeshifting, animal companion)
Botanist (plants, plant-based buffs similar to the dread necromancer's undead-based buffs)
Caelumancer (clouds, rain, snow, storms, sun, wind, plus boost to spellcasting when moving)
Shaman (Buffs, Divination, Spirits, plus free companion spirit for the party)
Terramancer (darkness, earth, fire, ice, metal, water, plus boost to spellcasting when staying still)

[NigelWalmsley]

There's a Summoner in this thread (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828) that's basically "all the summoning plus a little bit of other Conjuration".

Overall, the sky is really the limit. You could have <Element> Mages for Air/Fire/Lightning/Ice/Sound/Darkness/Acid/Plague/etc. You could have <Environment> Mages for Mountain/Desert/Swamp/Ocean/Cave. You could have mages themed around Battlefield Control, or AoEs, or single target effects. You could have Fae Mages and Infernal Mages and Celestial Mages and Dragon Mages and Aberration Mages. You could have mages based on the five colors in MtG or the Warrens from Malazan or the Territories from Traveler's Gate. You could have, fairly easily, most or all of those things at once.

Really, what you need to do is figure out how many classes you are willing to write (3? 5? 10? 20?), figure out what categories of magic you think need to be represented, and work from there. Otherwise it's easy to end up with a situation where it turns out that you didn't give anyone Raise Dead or something.

One thing I will say is that I don't actually think Diviner works well as a base class unless you're willing to staple something to it (either an additional field of magic, or something like Sneak Attack). Divinations simply don't do all that much on their own. They're good for the Wizard, but that's because he has other abilities and can narrow do which ones to use through divinations.

[Elves]

A "seer" diviner works fine offensively as a debuffer, cursing people through crystal balls and reading them ill omens from the Tarot. You could also give their crystal balls and floating sensors beholder-style eyebeams. You could even give them a third eye that shoots laser blasts or whatever if you want to get kitschy.

[NigelWalmsley]

Sure, that works conceptually. But it's not really supported by the Divinations that actually exist. The point isn't that there's no imaginable offensive strategy for a Diviner. It's that, unlike Conjuration, Necromancy, Transmutation, Evocation, Illusion, Abjuration, or Enchantment, it's not sufficient to carry a character on its own.

[Elves]

A diviner class working with core spells would probably revolve around true strike at low levels. Then you could give them a class feature that lets their arcane eyes shoot eyebeams. It's doable I think.

[Edea]

I'd probably incorporate divination into a 'planar'; a list caster focused on conjuration (summoning/calling), and then with the necessary abjurations and divinations to ensure their focus doesn't end up immediately murdering them (for example, to planar bind something you need magic circle spells, you definitely want to be able to dismiss things and also prevent them from escaping, the act of summoning's a lot easier when you've gathered up the necessary information and you're able to communicate with them over long distances, etc.).

[kinem]

Here are some of mine:

Blademage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?586695-Blademage-PEACH)

Stonemage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?589353-Stonemage-PEACH)

Arcane Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585878-Arcane-Seer-PEACH)

[Grod_The_Giant]

A diviner class working with core spells would probably revolve around true strike at low levels. Then you could give them a class feature that lets their arcane eyes shoot eyebeams. It's doable I think.
My take leans heavily into the skillmonkey/Rogue schtick-- they get a True Strike smite-style attack like you suggested, and a bunch of other stuff that kinda looks like the Factotum... Their signature ability is that they can retroactively buy things. Halfway through an adventure and unexpectedly need a Break Enchantment spell? Well, it just so happens that I foresaw this and picked up a scroll when we were in Waterdeep last week...

[NigelWalmsley]

A diviner class working with core spells would probably revolve around true strike at low levels. Then you could give them a class feature that lets their arcane eyes shoot eyebeams. It's doable I think.

True Strike is not really a great schtick for a low level caster. It's a two-round combo to maybe kill a guy. That's not even the rate your Fighters or Barbarians are going to get with combined powers of "18 Strength" and "Greatsword". Low level casters are either handing out things like Color Spray or Grease, or doing a reasonable job in melee while carrying a bag of heals.

Giving them eye lasers works, but that seems pretty clearly in the range of "non-Divination spells". "Your Arcane Eyes can fire rays" is an interesting ability, but it suggests that you pick up some rays for them to fire (e.g. Scorching Ray, Enervate). And that's fine! That's a totally reasonable niche. But it's very much not just Divinations.


I'd probably incorporate divination into a 'planar'; a list caster focused on conjuration (summoning/calling), and then with the necessary abjurations and divinations to ensure their focus doesn't end up immediately murdering them (for example, to planar bind something you need magic circle spells, you definitely want to be able to dismiss things and also prevent them from escaping, the act of summoning's a lot easier when you've gathered up the necessary information and you're able to communicate with them over long distances, etc.).

I always thought the Warmage was a good place to stick them. The class needs a non-combat schtick, and being able to serve up some battlefield intelligence seems like the exact thing you'd like your military casters to do with their time. Make their blasting a little better, give them a little more BFC, and you have something that does pretty much all the things I'd expect a military wizard to be able to do.


Their signature ability is that they can retroactively buy things. Halfway through an adventure and unexpectedly need a Break Enchantment spell? Well, it just so happens that I foresaw this and picked up a scroll when we were in Waterdeep last week...

That seems both incredibly overpowered and absolutely miserable to play. As far as I can tell, that ability reads "you can spontaneously cast any spell in the game for gold". Even setting aside any WBL-breaking tricks, you can win most encounters with a scroll that costs less than the loot if you are picking from every spell in the game. Conversely, I don't see how you are supposed to do much of anything in combat by casting the spells on your list past like 4th level.

[Elves]

The point is that when you're at the level of a base class you're free to modify their kit with class features to make it work (or to add other abilities to round it out). No reason Div can't be a class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That seems both incredibly overpowered and absolutely miserable to play. As far as I can tell, that ability reads "you can spontaneously cast any spell in the game for gold". Even setting aside any WBL-breaking tricks, you can win most encounters with a scroll that costs less than the loot if you are picking from every spell in the game. Conversely, I don't see how you are supposed to do much of anything in combat by casting the spells on your list past like 4th level.
Give me some credit, there are limits on the ability-- it costs a resource to use, your virtual cash can't exceed 1000*level, individual items you produce can't cost more than 200*level, and so on. And the ability to, a few times per adventure, whip out the one thing that wins the encounter is the point of the ability, it's the whole point of the archetype. The diviner is the "knowledge is power" guy, he's the guy who knows what's coming and makes plans to deal with it. It's hard for a player to do that (and a GM to accommodate it), but meta abilities like Always Prepared let you feel like a badass genius without having to be one in real life. If I did the class again today, I'd probably go even heavier on stuff like that.

And he's not casting spells in combat, most of the time. He's Rogue-y. He's got baseline combat skills, he's got a "planned attack" smite, he's got all sorts of Int-to-X abilities, he's got UMD. In combat he plays more like a Factotum than a caster.

(And if you do want some combat spells, expanding a fixed list caster's spell list is not hard.)

[NigelWalmsley]

Give me some credit, there are limits on the ability-- it costs a resource to use, your virtual cash can't exceed 1000*level, individual items you produce can't cost more than 200*level, and so on.

It doesn't really cost a resource. Your gets 1.6k GP for winning an encounter at 5th level. If you can do that for 1k GP, your ability made 600 GP. And while the limit stops you from dropping scrolls of Shapechange at 5th level, you can still throw out a Polymorph or Evard's Black Tentacles (and that's just core spells off the top of my head).

And it's worth pointing out that there's a degree to which limiting the effects you can get out makes for worse play patterns. If you could throw scrolls of Weird at all your problems, that'd be broken as hell, but at least it'd be quick. Digging through every 4th level spell probably still makes you win, but it takes orders of magnitude longer.


And the ability to, a few times per adventure, whip out the one thing that wins the encounter is the point of the ability, it's the whole point of the archetype.

You can do it five times per day. It's like being a Wizard, except you get more spells, you cast them spontaneously, and your spell list is all the spells that exist. It's the Artificer, Erudite, or Archivist on steroids (and it even has the same problem where not abusing the mechanic leaves you playing a class that's kinda medium).


And he's not casting spells in combat, most of the time. He's Rogue-y. He's got baseline combat skills, he's got a "planned attack" smite, he's got all sorts of Int-to-X abilities, he's got UMD. In combat he plays more like a Factotum than a caster.

Except he doesn't get his extra action ability until the game is over. For most of the game, you're a bad Rogue. Your smite is like making two sneak attacks, except your damage is less consistent. And a competent Rogue is getting way more than two sneak attacks per round.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It doesn't really cost a resource. Your gets 1.6k GP for winning an encounter at 5th level. If you can do that for 1k GP, your ability made 600 GP. And while the limit stops you from dropping scrolls of Shapechange at 5th level, you can still throw out a Polymorph or Evard's Black Tentacles (and that's just core spells off the top of my head).

And it's worth pointing out that there's a degree to which limiting the effects you can get out makes for worse play patterns. If you could throw scrolls of Weird at all your problems, that'd be broken as hell, but at least it'd be quick. Digging through every 4th level spell probably still makes you win, but it takes orders of magnitude longer.
That...is a good point. Sorry, it's been a long time since I did 3.5 stuff and even longer since I wrote this class.

[kinem]

Nigel or Grod (or anyone!), any comments on my Arcane Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585878-Arcane-Seer-PEACH)? It has obvious similarities with Grod's Seer, but also notable differences. Looking back on it, I'm considering a revised version, but if I do that I will think about it more first.

[Edea]

Nigel or Grod (or anyone!), any comments on my Arcane Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585878-Arcane-Seer-PEACH)? It has obvious similarities with Grod's Seer, but also notable differences. Looking back on it, I'm considering a revised version, but if I do that I will think about it more first.

I'd be extremely careful with omitting material component costs entirely.

I think the general rule of thumb is that you can substitute with spare XP at an exchange rate of 1 XP = 5 gp (so instead of 250 gp for true seeing's saffron unguent, you can pay 50 XP and skip the eyerub).

But just omitting them altogether's dangerous, especially if that spell list gets expanded, as adding spells puts them 'on the class spell list' (things like free animate dead spells and walls of iron, which will break the already-wonky WBL curve into tiny pieces).

[NigelWalmsley]

Nigel or Grod (or anyone!), any comments on my Arcane Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585878-Arcane-Seer-PEACH)? It has obvious similarities with Grod's Seer, but also notable differences. Looking back on it, I'm considering a revised version, but if I do that I will think about it more first.

Fundamentally, you need something to do in combat. At 1st level you're a Cleric, except you're stuck in light armor, and you don't get any heals, domains, or turning. Maybe I missed something on the spell list (I certainly don't know all those spells offhand), but it looks like you've got caster stat priorities, but you're trying to fight with a scythe. I guess at this point Sudden Insight can carry you, but that falls off pretty quick and you never seem to really get anything to speak of in terms of combat magic. Haste and Slow are third or fourth string for the Beguiler, but it looks like that might literally be your best combat option at 6th or even 10th level.

Like I said originally, Divination doesn't stand on its own. You either need to give it a class feature as good as (or probably better than) the Rogue's Sneak Attack, or give it some actual combat magic. That could be all kinds of stuff. They could do eye beams like Elves suggested, or Planar Magic like Edea did, or they could have a Doom Desire ability where their prophecies can actually hurt people, or any number of other things. But it's got to be something.

Also they need more class features. At minimum something every other level, ideally something every level.

Beyond the substantive mechanical stuff, I think you should clear up the spell list. It's not clear to me what the underlining means, and you should be tagging things with the book they are from. For example, "True Casting (CM)", with a "CM means Complete Mage" explanation at the end.


I'd be extremely careful with omitting material component costs entirely.

Yeah, don't do that. It's just asking for someone to do something super busted. I will say it is probably fine if you limit it to just the spells on their class list (which lets you cut off any brokenness).

[Morphic tide]

I think Divination isn't really the sort to fit a single-school specialist like the Dread Necromancer, because it's focused very extensively around making other things work better. The amount of power creep I can see on the SRD Divinations to make the character numerically useful is insane, let alone the dive into useful shenaniganery. So part of it would be up-crunching, down-leveling, and adding to the selection of Divination spells so they include enough stuff to actually make for a useful combatant, possibly expanding on the design space of Foresight and Telepathic Bond into a Marshal-like suite of non-domineering command magic so the class focuses around making allies fight better.

Main thing would be having a lot of responsive Divination tie into Readied and Immediate action mechanics, making the Celerity line's selling point into the abruptness instead of being uniquely action advantageous. Carefully avoiding being better action advantage than the Celerity line would be the big issue there, but spontaneous access to Celerity sidegrades seems a good way to brute-force even the most tepid of Gish support into a serious combatant. And having this be sharable means that they're far less likely to run into lording over others, because they're usually better off giving the bonuses to an ally as they coordinate the team into crazy shenanigans.

[kinem]

Thanks all, some good ideas there.

The Seer is very useful for investigation, exploration, and knowing what to prepare for, so naturally, combat is not a much of a focus. That said, I tend to agree that it could use a bit more punch in combat than my Arcane Seer had. I probably erred on the side of caution since it's important not to make homebrew overpowered.

I made a revised version of my Seer class, with a better name and better powers and flavor:

Occult Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616975-Occult-Seer-PEACH&p=24648308#post24648308)

How does this one look?

The spell list is almost the same. I know it can use some clarification as to books and such.

The underlining was meant to show which spells I thought were important to note. For example Hunter's Eye (which is now a persistent SLA) was a good spell, Insight of Good Fortune is a good buff spell, and Unluck is a good debuff to cast in combat.

[Edea]

I think Divination isn't really the sort to fit a single-school specialist like the Dread Necromancer, because it's focused very extensively around making other things work better.

Another issue is that there's already an officially published answer for focusing on that school: the wizard's Spontaneous Divination variant. Kinda hard to compete with that.