[3.5] Jade Phoenix Mage critique and rules questions

[Aesir]

Hello everyone, I've been using some of my free time to make builds and have been working on a JPM that's really more for flavor, but may have some fun nuking capabilities. It's currently unfinished. That said I'll post the build so far, go over what I THINK may work and then ask some rules questions:

Wu jen 6/ Elemental Savant 2/ Crusader 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10/ spellcasting PrC +1

Human (silverbrow for practical metamagic)
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FEATS (9 TOTAL)

Practiced Spellcaster (Human)
Searing Spell (1st)
Sudden Maximize (1st Bonus Wu Jen)
Energy Substitution [Fire] (3rd)
Elemental Adept (6th)**
Extra Granted Manuever (9th)
Practical Metamagic (Searing Spell) (12th)**
Sudden Recovery (15th)
Martial Stance (Aura of Chaos) (18th)
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MANUEVERS 8(6) at level 20

Lvl 9
- Leading the Charge (Stance)
- Battle Leader's Charge
- Crusader's Strike
- Foe Hammer
- Revitalizing Strike
- White Raven Tactics (Boost)

Lvl 10
- Death Mark (for now)
Lvl 12
- Flashing Sun
Lvl 14
- Thicket of Blades (Stance)
- Divine Surge
Lvl 16
- Rallying Strike
Lvl 18
- Inferno Blade (Boost)
- Aura of Chaos (Feat: Stance)
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One of my ideas was to use Elemental Savant's 2nd level ability combined with Elemental adept feat and the practical metamagic feats to essentially make all my elemental descriptor spells [Fire] and combine them with Searing Spell to overcome fire resitance and immunity (to a lesser degree).

The reason why is to use the Wu Jens 6th level ability and JPMs firebird stance to make all fire spells more powerful.

The idea for late game is to use things like: Body Outside Body (for White Raven Tactics and other manuever shenanigans), Transcend Mortality (both for JPM's capstone Emerald Imolation ability and to hang in melee), Giant Size, and Arcane Spellsurge to quicken spells to go alongside strike manuevers.

My questions are:
Even though this build is more flavorful than optimized would it do decently at higher levels?

Would Sudden Maximize combine with Aura of Chaos to allow me to reroll all the dice for extra damage? AoC allows you to reroll damage from dice that show the maximum result and add that damage again. Example: sudden maximized fireball does 10d6 or 60 damage, would I then add 10 more d6 since the result was maximized in the firstplace?)

Is there a better way to progress in levels for better optimization?

Thanks for reading this far. I know it's a wall of text.

[Falontani]

I believe your character should be competent at higher levels, but it really depends on how optimized monsters and the rest of your party are to gauge that

Maximize Spell should not interact with Aura of Chaos, unfortunately. Maximize spell skips the rolling entirely, so dealing 10d6 maximized does not roll 10 6s, but shortcuts to dealing 60. Which would unfortunately shortcut aura of chaos completely. Which brings the unlikely scenario that a maximized fireball could deal less than just an Aura of Chaos fireball. I would suggest to your DM to allow you to roll the dice, and if you roll max on any of the dice to allow you to just add that many dice to the maximized portion. So you roll 10d6 and get 2 6s, your maximized aura of chaos fireball now deals 72 damage. But that isn't RAW. Hope I helped.

[Kayblis]

That's a fine and pretty functional build. At higher levels you'll have a lot to do in any circumstance. It's great for a mid-high op group, and can handle equal CR enemies on his own.

I also believe the Aura of Chaos doesn't interact with Maximize spell, because no actual dice are rolled. You'll get more mileage out of the stance if you roll tons of low dice(d4s or lower), and I'd say d6 spells are the upper limit of what I'd call 'efficient' for AoC.

For recommendations, I'd suggest getting one of those fancy bucklers with 0% AFC and -0 ACP, and pick the Shield Block maneuver at level 8. That's a considerable boost to an ally's AC any time you're in melee for a pretty small cost, and it'll carry you through the mid levels. If you have a friend with Magic Vestment, it's up to +10 AC as an immediate action to any adjacent ally. Good to fill gaps in the team and add versatility to your rotation. As you're planning to use BoB, this becomes an instantaneous unbeatable AC against one attack you can't afford to take.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Aura of Chaos only procs on melee attacks. It won't work with fireball anyway.

[Edea]

Wu jen's elemental mastery class feature and the Rising Phoenix stance substitution fall victim to the 'TSR Thesaurus' joke, except replace 'level' with 'fire spell'.

Elemental mastery is specifically for the spells given in that particular category on the wu jen's spell list, not 'all spells with the [Fire] descriptor'. For example, cat's grace is in the 'fire' elemental mastery category for wu jen, but is not an energy spell at all, and transmute rock to lava, despite being available to wu jen and having the [Fire] descriptor, is not part of the 'fire' elemental mastery category. Cat's grace gets the CL bonus, transmute rock to lava does not (and neither would any other energy spell not already part of that category, [Fire] descriptor or otherwise).

Aura of Chaos is a stance; unless you're getting Warblade 20 in there, it won't co-exist with Rising Phoenix. Not saying that having both of them on-hand's bad or anything, just that you'll have to pick one or the other at any given time (it sounded like you wanted to use both at once). It also doesn't synergize with Maximize for the already-stated reason, so you're better off Empowering things.

Trying to get around the cost of transcend mortality by gambling the timing of your emerald immolation so that the spell 'ends' while you're already destroyed is, IMO, contentious, as is trying to claim that the spell 'ends' the moment you immolate since there's nothing to indicate that all spell effects are removed when you use it (just damage dealt to you and certain status conditions); I would rule you re-form from the immolation and then just immediately disintegrate afterwards (or whenever the spell ends, obviously, if the immolation was 'mis-timed'), as that spell pretty clearly states the disintegration effect 'can't be prevented by any means'. Might check with your DM first on that one.

White Raven Tactics is already completely busted all by itself, so if your DM's allowing it then he'll probably be OK with the transcend mortality thing, too.

I dunno if I'd use wu jen for this, and if you're dead set on wu jen I'm REALLY not sure I'd bother with Elemental Savant.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Aura of Chaos is a stance; unless you're getting Warblade 20 in there, it won't co-exist with Rising Phoenix. Not saying that having both of them on-hand's bad or anything, just that you'll have to pick one or the other at any given time (it sounded like you wanted to use both at once). It also doesn't synergize with Maximize for the already-stated reason, so you're better off Empowering things.

Aura of Chaos is a level 6 devoted spirit stance. Taking with his level 18 feat, as presented, is perfectly legal, if a bit later than it could be.

[Edea]

Aura of Chaos is a level 6 devoted spirit stance. Taking with his level 18 feat, as presented, is perfectly legal, if a bit later than it could be.

Right, I'm saying he can't have both that and Firebird Stance up -at once-, it'd have to be one or the other at any given time.

Also for some reason I remembered Firebird Stance as 'Rising Phoenix Stance,' not sure where that came from.

[Aesir]

Although I agree emerald immolation/transcend mortality is risky, I would argue that, so far as timing is correct, it can be sidestepped using this method.

The only reason I make that claim is in two parts.

1. Using emerald immolation the turn transcend mortality is going to expire, you -skip- the final effect. Because your character doesnt exist anymore because....

2. Emerald immolation states the blast "utterly destroys you"
BUT you reform 1d6 rounds later.

The implication I'm *assuming* is that your character is already dead prior to the completion of transcend immortality. So transcend Mortality still reduces you to a pile of ash, but you're already a pile of ash. Either way I'd assume the spell resolves without a valid target (dead or non existant). Then the PC is essentially true resurrected after 1d6 rounds.

All that said, I agree its super cheezy and totally up to DM discretion and should be discussed beforehand. Also if I'm wrong I'm wrong =p

And as far as sudden Maximize interacting with aura of chaos: the build will need to be changed to avoid wasting a feat or two. Thank you for the correction. ^_^

To keep with the fire flavor maybe replacing Martial stance:aura of chaos and sudden Maximize with fiery spell and practical metamagic fiery spell? I'm unsure, I haven't checked to see if that would even be worth it flavor aside. What would you giants suggest?

And for the fire descriptor part edea mentioned, I'm a little confused about it, sorry. But wouldn't using the Energy Substitution [fire] to all elemental spells turn those spells fire and force them to be subject to the CL boost from Elemental Mastery and Firebird Stance?

And if that doesnt work, what would you suggest I replace elemental savant with?

Final edit: edea; yes I knew I'd have to choose between the two stances, but if I could get max damage+extra I thought it might be worth ending the firebird stance to take advantage of AoC.

[Edea]

The crusader level the build takes actually qualifies it for Spellblade (Complete Warrior; warblade wouldn't have worked), so you can just 1-level that for a +1 BAB/+1 spellcaster dip to round the build off (bonus is having ASF reduced by 10%, makes a mithral chain shirt have a 0% ASF chance total and light shields won't penalize, either).

[Aesir]

I know its been a while. I hope this doesn't count as necroing a thread, but I wanted to post the final build.


Wu Jen 6/ Elemental Savant 2/ Crusader 1/ Spellsword 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10
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you can make a +1 Twilight Mithral Chain shirt to get +5 AC for 5k gold with no penalties as a Wu Jen.

After level 10 get a
Feycraft (-5% ASF, 500 gp),
Twilight (-10% ASF, +1 bonus 1,000 gp)
Mithril (-10% ASF, 9,000 gp)
Full Plate (1,500 gp).

Spellsword 1 means -35% ASF total. Enough to bring Full Plate down to 0% ASF

Total cost: 12,000 gp
WBL at LVL 10: 49,000 gp

Also get two "Ring of Counterspells" (Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic) this prevents those spells from being used on you.
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Silverbrow Human.

Good alignment required
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STARTING STATS

Str 14+2
Dex 12+1
Con 14+2
Int 16+3
Wis 10+0
Cha 8-1

FEATS (9 TOTAL)

Miser With Magic (Human)
Searing Spell (1st)
Blistering Spell (1st Bonus Wu Jen)
Energy Substitution [Fire] (3rd)
Extend Spell (Shield)(Spell Secret)(Wu Jen3)
Elemental Adept (6th)
Elemental Mastery [Fire] (Wu Jen6)
Elemental Specialty [Fire] (Elem Savant 1)
Extra Granted Maneuver (9th)
Practiced Spellcaster (12th)
Rapid Metamagic(15th)
Sudden Recovery (18th)
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MANUEVERS total of 8 readied (6) granted at combat start.

Lvl 9
- Leading the Charge (Stance)
- Battle Leader's Charge
- Crusader's Strike
- Foe Hammer
- Revitalizing Strike
- White Raven Tactics (Boost)

Lvl 11
- Death Mark
Lvl 13
- Flashing Sun
Lvl 15
- Iron Guard's Glare (Stance)
- Divine Surge
Lvl 17
- Rallying Strike
Lvl 19
- Inferno Blade (Boost)
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SPELLS of note for now (starting INT 16)
Spells in parenthesis are to be added to the spellbook.

LVL 0
Disrupt Undead
Prestidigitation
Dancing Lights
Message
Ray of Frost
Read Magic

LVL 1
Shield 1
Sleep 1
Silent Image 1
Fiery Eyes 1

LVL 2
Hail of Stone 1
True Strike 1

LVL 3
Blur 2
Ice Knife 2

LVL 4
Rope Trick 2
Bull's Strength 2

Lvl 5
Haste 3
Fireball 3
(Feeblemind)

LVL 6
Protection from Energy 3
Dispel Magic 3
(Magic Weapon, Greater)
(Displacement)

LVL 7
Invisibility, Greater 4
Pain 4
(Disintegrate)
(Snake Darts)

LVL 8
Dimension Door 4
Stoneskin 4


LVL 11 (Spellcaster 9)
Fire and Brimstone 5
Teleport 5
(Permanency)

LVL 12 (Spellcaster 10)
Wall of Stone 5
Heart of Fire 5

LVL 13 (Spellcaster 11)
Dispel Magic, Greater 6
Eyes of the Oracle 6
(Lingering Flames)
(Fire Seeds)

LVL 14 (Spellcaster 12)
Globe of Invulnerability 6
True Seeing 6

LVL 15 (Spellcaster 13)
Arcane Spellsurge 7
Body Outside Body 7
(Energy Absorption)
(Teleport, Greater)
(Adamantine Wings)

LVL 17 (Spellcaster 14)
Giant Size 7
Scrying, Greater 7

LVL 18 (Spellcaster 15)
Mind Blank 8
Horrid Wilting 8
(Polymorph Any Object)
(Deadly Lahar)

LVL 19 (Spellcaster 16)
Power Word Stun 8
Mysterious Redirection 8

LVL 20 (Spellcaster 17)
Transcend Mortality 9
Deadly Suntroke 9
(Absorption)
(Time Stop)
(Wish)
(Freedom)


@ LEVEL 20

BAB: +16/ +11/ +6/ +1
Initiator level 15
Caster level 20, 17 w/o Practiced Spellcaster

What do you guys think?