almost free "magic" items

[Raishoiken]

So do we remember how ravenloft has those Devices that are just mundane magic items with double a batteries? Given that they're mundane, couldn't a caster say... Use polymorph any object to turn a rock into an arbitrarily powerful item?

The only criteria in POA says that

a: nonmagical items can't be made magic
b: magical items are unaffected

Am i missing anything that stops this? Cuz with a one off scroll/item of polymorph any object you can literally spend just one round turning the pun pun process into a literal button to be pressed

[Zombimode]

Could you detail your thought process here?

I'm not familiar with ravenloft devices you describe but from your description I fail to see how theese would make a difference.

[Raishoiken]

Could you detail your thought process here?

I'm not familiar with ravenloft devices you describe but from your description I fail to see how theese would make a difference.

There is a clan specific feat that allows them to replace a magic item creation feat with itself in order to create technological equivalents to magic items, producing totally non-magical versions at the cost of needing a power supply


The primary thought here is since they're non-magical, they're a valid candidate for polymorph any object

[Zombimode]

Sure they are, but so is a rock.

Why do you think PaO would allow to change such an item to have abitrary magic properties anymore then it would allow so with a rock?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure they are, but so is a rock.

Why do you think PaO would allow to change such an item to have abitrary magic properties anymore then it would allow so with a rock?

Because they're not magic. That's the thing about devices; they mimic spell effects but both the device and its effects are, to my understanding, explicitly non-magical.

Personally, I wouldn't allow the devices at all outside of a Ravenloft campaign but this trick should work as advertised.

[Zombimode]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I still don't see why some item that has properties like one specific magic item can be PaO'ed to have properties of a different magic item. Or rather IF that is possible, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a rock.


There is nothing in the spell description that would even imply this would be possible.

[reddir]

So do we remember how ravenloft has those Devices that are just mundane magic items with double a batteries? Given that they're mundane, couldn't a caster say... Use polymorph any object to turn a rock into an arbitrarily powerful item?

The only criteria in POA says that

a: nonmagical items can't be made magic
b: magical items are unaffected

Am i missing anything that stops this? Cuz with a one off scroll/item of polymorph any object you can literally spend just one round turning the pun pun process into a literal button to be pressed


Can you post the Feat and an example or two of these Devices? I think that might help clarify some things.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I still don't see why some item that has properties like one specific magic item can be PaO'ed to have properties of a different magic item. Or rather IF that is possible, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a rock.


There is nothing in the spell description that would even imply this would be possible.

The properties of all the items in question and the rock are non-magical. That's the rub: there are no magic items being discussed here. The "devices" perform the function of a magic item while both they and their effect are explicitly non-magical. They function in dead magic zones and their effects can't be dispelled or suppressed.

It's a -really- poorly thought out bit of 3rd party material.

[Raishoiken]

Can you post the Feat and an example or two of these Devices? I think that might help clarify some things.



Choose an item creation feat for which your character level equals or exceeds the
required caster level. You can create nonmagical equivalents of the magic items that the selected
feat would normally allow you to create. For the purpose of creating these items, you are considered
to be a spellcaster of the appropriate type with a
caster level equal to your character level; you may ignore the spells normally required to create the
items, but you cannot crate an item that would produce spell effects beyond the capacity of your
effective caster level. (Thus, a 5th-level character could produce the scientific equivalent of a wand of
fireball, a 3rd-level spell, but not a wand of dimension door (a 4th-level spell).
The cost of creation and the time required for each device are the same as for the equivalent
magic item. The devices so created duplicate the effects of the items they mimic. All other aspects of
the item (including color, shape, method of function and design) are under your control, at the
DM’s discretion. Items created with this feat always require the use of a power supply (see Family Magic later in this
chapter) to function. This requirement does not change the cost to create a charged item; the power
supply is an additional cost.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new item creation feat.



and as far as an example device, it would simply be say.... a cloak of resistance, with a battery pack instead of a magic aura


Maybe I'm just stupid, but I still don't see why some item that has properties like one specific magic item can be PaO'ed to have properties of a different magic item. Or rather IF that is possible, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a rock.


There is nothing in the spell description that would even imply this would be possible.


it's because the feat in question that normally produces non-magical magic item equivalents is what implies it





The properties of all the items in question and the rock are non-magical. That's the rub: there are no magic items being discussed here. The "devices" perform the function of a magic item while both they and their effect are explicitly non-magical. They function in dead magic zones and their effects can't be dispelled or suppressed.

It's a -really- poorly thought out bit of 3rd party material.


perhaps poorly thought out, but hay man we got the ph1 spells. isn't it 1st party tho?

[reddir]

So the relevant question seems to be:
How complex of a mundane "item" can PAO create?

These devices, if technological, should be considered very complex?

Can PAO create a spoon? Yes
Can PAO create a cart with moving wheels?
Can PAO create a luxury carriage with springs to dampen bumps and also stuffed leather seats and lanterns along the sides and also complex carvings/paintjobs?
Can PAO create an intricately geared wristwatch?

It seems to me a technology capable of mimic-ing magical effects would be a step or more beyond all of the above.

[Kelb_Panthera]

perhaps poorly thought out, but hay man we got the ph1 spells. isn't it 1st party tho?

It's not. It's licensed 3rd party. Arthaus is the actual publisher operating under the OGL.

[ayvango]

Same goes for non-magical poison. Gather some blood, PAO it into the most potent poison you could find in the monster manual books.

[Gruftzwerg]

before we get a headache:


This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

I can't imagine a battery supported device without "material of great intrinsic value". I mean you need copper or gold for wires as simple example. Sadly imho this doesn't work :smallfrown:

[Zanos]

So the relevant question seems to be:
How complex of a mundane "item" can PAO create?

These devices, if technological, should be considered very complex?

Can PAO create a spoon? Yes
Can PAO create a cart with moving wheels?
Can PAO create a luxury carriage with springs to dampen bumps and also stuffed leather seats and lanterns along the sides and also complex carvings/paintjobs?
Can PAO create an intricately geared wristwatch?

It seems to me a technology capable of mimic-ing magical effects would be a step or more beyond all of the above.
One of the listed examples is turning a human into a marionette, which is a pretty intricate craft.


I can't imagine a battery supported device without "material of great intrinsic value". I mean you need copper or gold for wires as simple example. Sadly imho this doesn't work :smallfrown:
It would depend on how the devices are actually described. It's entirely possible that techno(non)magic doesn't include anything considered intrinsically valuable, because a medieval machine that can generate miracles is pretty stupid already.


Same goes for non-magical poison. Gather some blood, PAO it into the most potent poison you could find in the monster manual books.
Would this work? Poison is certainly valuable but I don't know if that value is 'intrinsic.' Everything else listed is some kind of trade good, but I think you'd have a hard time arguing that you 10k dose of poison isn't inherently valuable.

[Jay R]

First, I think people are misunderstanding what the OP's question is. I think it is this:

The Feat says (I believe) that instead of making a magic item, the character can make a non-magical equivalent, like this:
Wand of Magic Missiles --> six-shooter
Necklace of Fireballs --> bandolier of grenades
Magic carpet --> helicopter
Gauntlets of Ogre Strength --> exoskeleton

That implies that there is a non-magical equivalent for any magic item. Therefore, can Polymorph Any Object be used to make that magic item?

[Please correct me if that is not what you meant.]


The answer is this: this question is a judgment call, and will be decided by the DM. Ask your DM, and nobody else.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

PAO can't create valuable materials, it can be dispelled, and the results won't work in a dead magic zone or antimagic field spell.

Fabricate, on the other hand, is perfectly able to create Devices if you have all the fixings for 'em. Granted, it'll still take 1/3 the base price of the resultant magic item in raw materials (thereby costing you money, but less of it, until you realize you also need to craft fuel cells, as well, meaning less expensive items gain a large expense, while super-expensive items are somewhat cheaper), but the real saver is XP (as all Devices do) and time. It takes 1 round as opposed to however long it would otherwise take to craft a Device.

[Jack_Simth]

So do we remember how ravenloft has those Devices that are just mundane magic items with double a batteries? Given that they're mundane, couldn't a caster say... Use polymorph any object to turn a rock into an arbitrarily powerful item?

The only criteria in POA says that

a: nonmagical items can't be made magic
b: magical items are unaffected

Am i missing anything that stops this? Cuz with a one off scroll/item of polymorph any object you can literally spend just one round turning the pun pun process into a literal button to be pressedThere's a third restriction in PaO: Can't make materials of great intrinsic value. Copper is named. What's your circuitry made of? What about the battery?

[Vizzerdrix]

1- the lantan (gnome) artificer from Magic of Faerun can do a similar thing.

2- why waste time with PAO? Spend 34 gp and make some shapesand instead.

[the_tick_rules]

here's another magic item creation method that as far as i know is valid

1. get a ring of major spell storing

2. access to a wish spell

3. cast wish into the ring

4. wish for magic item using the ring

it still costs 5k xp but not the massive increase that wishing for a magic item entails.

[Raishoiken]

PAO can't create valuable materials, it can be dispelled, and the results won't work in a dead magic zone or antimagic field spell.

Fabricate, on the other hand, is perfectly able to create Devices if you have all the fixings for 'em. Granted, it'll still take 1/3 the base price of the resultant magic item in raw materials (thereby costing you money, but less of it, until you realize you also need to craft fuel cells, as well, meaning less expensive items gain a large expense, while super-expensive items are somewhat cheaper), but the real saver is XP (as all Devices do) and time. It takes 1 round as opposed to however long it would otherwise take to craft a Device.

The intrinsic value thing is something i've thought of personally too, which while definitely a valid concern i can't exactly say what precisely is involved in the specifics of these devices, which is why i haven't gone with fabricate specifically which is also lower level. To be most thorough i could just polymorph some copper i have into the wires while tacking on everything else



1- the lantan (gnome) artificer from Magic of Faerun can do a similar thing.

2- why waste time with PAO? Spend 34 gp and make some shapesand instead.


You're 100% correct, it's the method i thought of after i realized the polymorph should work i just figured introducing it with polymorph specifically. Shapeshand is cheaper and more streamlined since it doesn't have the non-intrinsic value add on and simply works as the mimiced item. Also in faerun, this should work with the shaedling ability shadow gossamer, more smoothly than simply creating magic items out of it if someone argues they can make mundane but not magical items.


As a sidenote: this should also apply to artifacts shouldn't it? since (some) deities make them using item creation feats combined with the create artifact ability, and create device in the hands of such a deity should allow them to make effectively (Ex) artifacts shouldn't it? Which following the chain down should allow the non-magical replication of such through these means as well