Suggestions on Building a Kensei Monk

[Yakmala]

I’ve enjoyed playing Monks in previous campaigns, with my two longest tenured Monks being Long Death and Open Hand.

I’ve been wanting to try a Kensei for a while. I’ve heard the feedback, stating that anything a melee Kensei can do can be done better by a Battle Master or that anything a ranged Kensei can do can be done better by a number of different archer sub-classes. I want to ignore all of that for this thread.

I’d rather focus on going melee vs ranged for a Kensei. I know a Kensei can do both at the same time, but this particular Kensei is likely to be a Variant Human so initial Feat selection is a factor (though feel free to suggest the benefits of other races).

A longbow focused Kensei was my first inclination, as it would provide a reason to pick up Sharpshooter as the starting feat. I also like the idea of an archer that can deflect missiles. On the negative side, stunning strike doesn’t work at range, so the Kensei would have to close to melee range anyway to support the party with stuns. Also, it almost seems obligatory to take a least a 1 level fighter dip to get the archery fighting style.

On the melee side, The bonus AC is nice, especially if you can someday score bracers of defense. I could imagine focusing on using longsword two handed and starting with the Mobile feat for hit and run tactics. I could also see using a finesse melee weapon and picking up Defensive Duelist to be even more tanky. On the down side, I’d be giving up the Kensei’s ranged damage bonus. Also GWM does not benefit a melee Kensei as much as Sharpshooter benefits a ranged Kensei.

I’d be interested in hearing feedback from anyone with Kensei experience about how they built and grew their characters. Thanks!

[Man_Over_Game]

The thing a lot of people miss is that the Kensei doesn't have to be the best archer or the best tank. It's a better tank than an archer, and it's a better archer than a tank.

The key point of the Kensei is to use your mediocrity against their weaknesses.

Monks have a hard time against bruisers, as Monks generally have mediocre AC, poor HP, and their Stunning Strike doesn't work in those fights. Bruisers are bad at ranged attacks. Use your ranged attacks against bruisers. Dash up ahead of your team and start getting some free turns in with your long-range shots and safe mobility until your front lines clash.

Monks are naturally strong against archers and mages, but have a hard time clearing that range safely. Now you can pluck at them safely with your sniper shots, or use your extra AC to protect yourself while diving in. Get adjacent to their back line, and you're still a decent melee combatant that forces their mages into doing nothing but Misty Step and cantrips while their front line breaks to defend their rear.

That's the trick. Force the enemy into a situation where they aren't allowed to win. Kenseis are the most versatile subclass on the most versatile martial class, and it'd be silly to shoehorn it into being a specialist.


This does have a catch, though. You'll need to fight in a space that has a lot of room to maneuver in, otherwise all that bonus mobility of the Kensei Monk doesn't count for squat.

[x3n0n]

I'd be interested in hearing feedback from anyone with Kensei experience about how they built and grew their characters.

My current character is a (vanilla) Human Kensei Monk 6. Party of 4, all inexperienced players (melee Battlemaster, TWF Beast Master, Lore Bard). I rolled stats and was not experienced enough at the time to realize that I would have been way better off with Variant Human.
The backstory is that he was raised in an enclave of Wood Elves, so he went Kensei at 3, Longbow/Longsword (a la Elf Weapon Training).

The Longbow was "fine" for levels 3 and 4. Since reaching 5th, I am enjoying Stunning Strike plus Agile Parry too much to pass it up, and haven't been in any flyer combats since then; presumably, the bow will pay off once that happens.

If your party composition would benefit from having a dedicated archer, I think Sharpshooter (or the new UA fighting style feat) would be fine, although playing through levels 1 and 2 without using the feat seems like a bummer. The Class Features UA would let you pick a sling or darts as a Martial Arts weapon to use pre-Kensei to take advantage of the ranged feats.

MoG's post resonates strongly with me: there won't be many combats in which I am useless, but I'm never going to be able to fight strength with strength.

Mobile does a lot for you in both worlds: hit-and-run melee and extra footspeed to maintain appropriate range for longbow.
Sharpshooter has a higher ceiling, but a much lower floor.

[CTurbo]

I don't like the Kensei at all. It feels just weird. Gaining proficiency in the extra weapons is not much of a gain in most cases. Elf Monks already get Longbows anyway. I think Sun Soul Monks make better ranged focused Monks anyway.

Anyway, if I were to play a Kensei, I'd probably select a Longbow and Spear as my weapons and play it out as a regular Monk and just spam Agile Parry as it's about the only useful feature until level 17.

Also, I'd add 3 levels of Gloom Stalker Ranger too. You just gain so much especially if you can use the UA Revised.

[Cikomyr2]

There are two ways of going with the Kensai: the classical Weapon Master where you are a Wuxia Lord, with Longbow and Longsword, gracefully dancing on the battlefield. If you want that feel, be my guest.

Alternatively, with some premade agreement of your DM, you can go the Jackie Chang route and become a master of any weapon possible.

Pebble master thrower.
Walking cane fencer master

I turned darts into ridiculous assassination weapons in my game.

You can be master of any weapon, and if your DM gives you slack, anything can be your weapon of choice. From there, just let your imagination loose.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't like the Kensei at all. It feels just weird. Gaining proficiency in the extra weapons is not much of a gain in most cases. Elf Monks already get Longbows anyway. I think Sun Soul Monks make better ranged focused Monks anyway.

Anyway, if I were to play a Kensei, I'd probably select a Longbow and Spear as my weapons and play it out as a regular Monk and just spam Agile Parry as it's about the only useful feature until level 17.

Also, I'd add 3 levels of Gloom Stalker Ranger too. You just gain so much especially if you can use the UA Revised.

That's a big if, though - I don't think I'm the only DM that allows RR or XGtE subclasses but not both, as it seems like they're both ways to address the same problem. If I could do a Gloom Stalker RR, I'd question why I wanted levels in Kensai at all.

[Sparky McDibben]

I hate to complicate an already complicated topic, but the number and type of magic items in the campaign are also a major factor. A monk with a flame blade hits a helluva lot harder than one without, but that's modified by when those weapons are expected to drop. However, if you go with Mr. MoG's suggestion and keep your options open, you are able to leverage weapons that others might not get much use out of. And if there are no magical weapons, can you use the Poisoner feat from the new UA to boost your damage?

Also, can I ask what you enjoyed about your previous monks, and how do you see that transferring with the kensei? Have you talked this build through with the DM to see if their campaign will prominently feature any bad guys who might be especially weak or strong to your monk?

Good luck!

[Makorel]

If you do go the bow route I would suggest putting 1 level in Fighter for a fighting style. Sharpshooter isn't as good without the accuracy bump and if you get to 11 levels in Monk then you can add +3 on top of that and completely negate the accuracy penalty.

Alternatively Get Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master and smack fools with your longbow at -10 for +20.

[Yakmala]

I hate to complicate an already complicated topic, but the number and type of magic items in the campaign are also a major factor. A monk with a flame blade hits a helluva lot harder than one without, but that's modified by when those weapons are expected to drop. However, if you go with Mr. MoG's suggestion and keep your options open, you are able to leverage weapons that others might not get much use out of. And if there are no magical weapons, can you use the Poisoner feat from the new UA to boost your damage?

Also, can I ask what you enjoyed about your previous monks, and how do you see that transferring with the kensei? Have you talked this build through with the DM to see if their campaign will prominently feature any bad guys who might be especially weak or strong to your monk?

Good luck!

Those are good questions. I play and DM both homebrew and Adventurer's League. This character happens to be for a Tier 2 Adventurer's League game and I have enough DM experience and items I can trade around to allow for a reasonable level of "shenanigans" if I really wanted to. That being said, I'm going to avoid putting any Very Rare items on a Tier 2 character, even though there are ways I legally can via the Season 9 rules, because I don't want the character to be that unbalanced vs. some of the other party members that do not have as many options (due to frequent DM'ing) that I have. It also means no UA allowed.

So, for example, it would be easy for me to get a pair of Bracers of Defense for this character via trade. That means, by around Level 8, assuming 2 ASI's on Dex, we're looking at an AC of 20 (20 Dex, 16 Wis, Bracers), which jumps to 22 with Agile Parry. That's pretty good! Were I to take Defensive Duelist, I could bump that to 25 vs one Melee attack per turn (though that gets less useful at higher levels). Or I take a more traditional route and take Mobile. Mobile + 22 AC is really effective.

Were I to go primarily ranged, I'd at least have a +1 longbow (I could trade for an Oathbow, but I think that would be too much) and Bracers of Archery in place of the Bracers of Defense. In such a case, I'd most likely take Sharpshooter and one level of Fighter to pick up Archery Fighting Style, giving the character, at level 8, +11 to hit (+6 when using S.S.) and some good damage potential, though my fear here is that, no matter how effective my archery might be, I'm still going to have to spend a good portion of my time running to melee range to try and land stunning strikes.

As to what I liked about my previous monks...

Long Death was the most unkillable character I've ever played And let me tell you, the DM tried really hard to take him down. Things that killed or nearly killed the entire party, such has having two meteor storms dropped on us in the same round, didn't even phase him. He survived getting shoved through a prismatic wall and then getting dragged back through the other way. That's 14 saves vs nasty effects. He's shrugged off disintegrates. The only thing he really fears is Power Word Kill, and that has yet to come up. I was able to play the character with a complete nonchalance about death that was very appropriate for his class and background.

Open Hand was fun because it just felt like what you expect out of a classic Monk. I've been playing the game since the early days, so I remember back when every Monk's dream was to become "Grand Master of Flowers" Open Hand feels closest to how Monks used to be. Unfortunately, my Open Hand Monk's campaign ended before he got high enough for me to play around with the Death Touch.

[Misterwhisper]

Step one would be finding exactly you want to do with a monk.

Step two would be picking any other subclass to do it with besides Kensei because they just suck.

At most you go from a d8 to a d10 damage.
To get the ac bonus you have to attack unarmed with your attack action.
Which means you didn’t attack with your kensei weapon so you lost damage anyway.

Every monk can use a short bow or if an elf like MANY monks are they can just use a longbow anyway.
You already get extra attack.
You don’t have to attack with a monk weapon to flurry anyway.
If you bonus action dodge, dash, or disengage using a Ki.
Again don’t need a monk weapon and couldn’t flurry anyway.

Once you are high level your weapons will all do the same damage due to monk unarmed damage catching up, so who cares what you use.

Your weapon options are remarkably slim even with kensei weapons.

1. You pick one of the 1d8 versatile weapons. Which just trades throwing for 1 damage over a spear anyway.

2. A whip. Which gives you reach and improves with monk damage.
Which is good but 1d4 damage or you could play one of the many other subclasses who have ways to ignore OA.

3. Longbow, but why, you can bonus action add 1d4 to damage. But then you can’t flurry, dodge, dash, or disengage.


They can spend a Ki to make their weapon magic.
Still can’t do it to unarmed strikes, and it doesn’t work on magic weapons with bonus to hit and damage so there is a good chance you won’t use it anyway.

If it goes live, which I doubt, the UA for alternative features gives monks many more weapon choices anyway.

In the same UA they have a fighting style that can make unarmed strikes 1d6 or 1d8 and gives grappling bonuses.

So you could always play a ranger or fighter unarmed guy.

[AttilatheYeon]

My AL monk is a Hill Dwarf with Dwarven fortitude + Periapt of Wound Closer. Patient Defense bonus action dodge procs a Hit Dice, Periapt of Wound Closer doubles the healing.

[x3n0n]

If you will have access to a magical bow and Bracers of Archery anyway, the relative benefits of ranged kensei are reduced: Magic Kensei Weapons and Sharpen the Blade don't add anything. That just leaves Kensei's Shot and Deft Strike.

At that point, you can probably choose whichever subclass would be the most fun in melee. If you like Agile Parry as much as I do, maybe that's still Kensei, but maybe not. :)

Edit: as briefly mentioned above, Kensei Whip is also the only non-UA way to get a Martial Arts weapon with reach, which can be fun, although it doesn't have a lot of synergy with unarmed strikes.

[prototype00]

I too played a Kensei in T2 (a wandering Broken One of Ilmater with a crude iron prosthesis replacing one of his legs).

He used a Longsword as a Crutch, but revealed it as a *ta dah!* Flametongue Longsword (one is available in a Hardcover) when needed. With Mobile he did a considerable amount of damage running in, slashing and bashing and then running out. (I knew my role, and Tank wasn't it)

It was actually pretty effective.

[Dork_Forge]

Step one would be finding exactly you want to do with a monk.

Step two would be picking any other subclass to do it with besides Kensei because they just suck.

Well this was overly harsh.


At most you go from a d8 to a d10 damage.
To get the ac bonus you have to attack unarmed with your attack action.
Which means you didn’t attack with your kensei weapon so you lost damage anyway.

It's a choice the player can make, slightly more damage or more AC, if it was just a static bonus it would be too much. Once Extra Attack rolls around this doesn't really matter anyway.


Every monk can use a short bow or if an elf like MANY monks are they can just use a longbow anyway.



They can, and they'll be shutting down Martial Arts just holding those weapons. If you're talking about archers, the Kensei is simply a better archer than any other Monk by a long stretch, they can use bows without losing their Martial Arts in case of melee and they can give bonus damage, which if they're using a bow they're probably not in range (or don't want to be in range) to melee the target anyway.


Once you are high level your weapons will all do the same damage due to monk unarmed damage catching up, so who cares what you use.


Your weapon options are remarkably slim even with kensei weapons.

1. You pick one of the 1d8 versatile weapons. Which just trades throwing for 1 damage over a spear anyway.

Tier 1 every little helps damage wise and it increases your magic weapon options


2. A whip. Which gives you reach and improves with monk damage.
Which is good but 1d4 damage or you could play one of the many other subclasses who have ways to ignore OA.

Every subclass can Step of the Wind, Kensei makes the Whip significantly better, the 1d4 damage matters for what? Two levels until you hit 5th? At those levels it's not bad damage and if you take a whip then it's because you want to leverage the reach option.


3. Longbow, but why, you can bonus action add 1d4 to damage. But then you can’t flurry, dodge, dash, or disengage.

If you're using a Longbow, then you're either don't need to or aren't in a position to do those things.


They can spend a Ki to make their weapon magic.
Still can’t do it to unarmed strikes, and it doesn’t work on magic weapons with bonus to hit and damage so there is a good chance you won’t use it anyway.

It's a subclass about weapon use, enhancing unarmed strikes beyond the base Monk chassis makes no sense. No the benefit doens't work on magic weapons with + to hit, but it does work on magic weapons that don't, like a Flame Tongue. And it give the flexibilty to use a +1 longsword most of the time but bust out a home made +3 longsword for the big fight of the day.


If it goes live, which I doubt, the UA for alternative features gives monks many more weapon choices anyway.

imo a bad part of that UA but it's not like it makes Kensei completely redundant.


In the same UA they have a fighting style that can make unarmed strikes 1d6 or 1d8 and gives grappling bonuses.

So you could always play a ranger or fighter unarmed guy.

That has nothing to do with Kensei and is stepping on the toes of the Monk as a whole.

The Kensei isn't perfect (there's zero balance reason to restrict Deft Strike) but it's certainly not the lost cause you advertise it as.

[Misterwhisper]

Well this was overly harsh.



It's a choice the player can make, slightly more damage or more AC, if it was just a static bonus it would be too much. Once Extra Attack rolls around this doesn't really matter anyway.


Every monk can use a short bow or if an elf like MANY monks are they can just use a longbow anyway.

They can, and they'll be shutting down Martial Arts just holding those weapons. If you're talking about archers, the Kensei is simply a better archer than any other Monk by a long stretch, they can use bows without losing their Martial Arts in case of melee and they can give bonus damage, which if they're using a bow they're probably not in range (or don't want to be in range) to melee the target anyway.



Tier 1 every little helps damage wise and it increases your magic weapon options



Every subclass can Step of the Wind, Kensei makes the Whip significantly better, the 1d4 damage matters for what? Two levels until you hit 5th? At those levels it's not bad damage and if you take a whip then it's because you want to leverage the reach option.



If you're using a Longbow, then you're either don't need to or aren't in a position to do those things.



It's a subclass about weapon use, enhancing unarmed strikes beyond the base Monk chassis makes no sense. No the benefit doens't work on magic weapons with + to hit, but it does work on magic weapons that don't, like a Flame Tongue. And it give the flexibilty to use a +1 longsword most of the time but bust out a home made +3 longsword for the big fight of the day.



imo a bad part of that UA but it's not like it makes Kensei completely redundant.



That has nothing to do with Kensei and is stepping on the toes of the Monk as a whole.

The Kensei isn't perfect (there's zero balance reason to restrict Deft Strike) but it's certainly not the lost cause you advertise it as.

1. Yes it is a choice the player can make.
a. Attack like normal like every other monk in the game.
b. Take a subclass whose main class feature is you can use a weapon that does 1 more damage, untill you all hit 1d10 weapon damage anyway
c. Ignore the main feature of your subclass, and the use of any magic weapon you may have and get 2 ac.

A subclass should not have 2 features at the start of the subclass that are mutually exclusive.
Essentially your choice is: attack going from 1d10 probably to 1d4, and get 2 ac, or get 1 more damage than normal.

2. Who cares about martial arts if you are in a position where you are going to be using a bow?

So you can't use dex for unarmed strike, you are shooting a bow, at range, you were not going to be unarmed striking any way.
1d4 damage or more with unarmed strike, again you are at range so it doesn't matter.
Bonus unarmed strike as bonus action. again at range so who cares.

You can still:
Flurry of blows if you wanted to, but really not much of a reason to.
Use Patient Defense, it has nothing to do with weapons.
Use Step of the Wind, again nothing to do with your weapon.

3. The fact it widens your options, but then you have to hope you find one of your choices for Kensei or you might as well be any monk.
Also, if you noticed they gave you more options for kensei weapons every time you get a new feature.
Do you know why?
It is because Kensei was so bare bones on useful abilities they threw it in to fill space.
You get Longbow, and essentially one of the 3 versatile 1d8/1d10 weapons, just pick slashing/bludgeoning/piercing.
What are you really going to pick after that?

4. Whip is a great option, but only because they don't let you pick any of the good reach weapons.
However, having a reach weapon does what really?
It lets you attack the enemy and be able to move away without them being able to hit you back. Which is great.
However:
Open Hand can stop all reactions on an both attacks with flurry.
Shadow can shadow step out anyway.
Drunken master gets a free disengage with every flurry, and get bonus movement.
Sun Soul just straight up has a ranged weapon.

The fact you can get a reach attack is a bandaid really just to make you about even with most other subclasses.

5. You mentioned: "If you're using a Longbow, then you're either don't need to or aren't in a position to do those things." (flurry, dash, disengage, dodge)
That is completely true, so why do you need to be a kensei in the first place?

6. Enchanting their unarmed strikes is something that EVERY monk has needed since 5e came out since they didn't bother to put in gloves/handwraps/cestus/knucks or anything else.
If Kensei could pick unarmed strike, or fist as a kensei weapon, I would dive on this subclass like a hungry dog.
But they cant, so either 1/3, 1/2, or maybe even 3/4 of your attack which will be unarmed, get nothing.
Also as you mentioned, having kensei weapon choices makes it a better chance you will find a magic weapon.
Well, if that weapon is a +1 or has it as part of it's abilities, your big level 11 feature is useless.
I might could see it being useful if you at least had to option to override.
If your group is going to find a flametongue, what is the chance they give it to the monk, who at the most swings it twice, instead of the Fighter or someone else?

7. I doubt that that UA ever go live so it probably doesn't matter. It never even made it onto DNDBEYOND, but that might have more to do with how hard it would be to impliment.


In the end, yes, Kensei is a lost cause but it is paying a HUGE price in mediocre at best abilities to be just a theme subclass.

I used to love Kensei in other editions, the weapon specialist is always a cool concept, but mechanically they screwed the pooch.

[Dork_Forge]

1. Yes it is a choice the player can make.
a. Attack like normal like every other monk in the game.
b. Take a subclass whose main class feature is you can use a weapon that does 1 more damage, untill you all hit 1d10 weapon damage anyway
c. Ignore the main feature of your subclass, and the use of any magic weapon you may have and get 2 ac.

The core abilities of the Kensei at 3rd are Agile Parry and Kensei Shot, the option to grab slightly more on average damage vs a quarterstaff is gravy, not the meat. At will adding +2 to your AC without action economy cost is a good ability, having it attached to a choice is not a bad thing. The Kensei is the best archer Monk in the game (as well as Dart thrower), this is also a highlight. They are the best Monk at using weapons, that is the aim of the subclass and it achieves it, making concepts a lot easier for a lot of builds.


A subclass should not have 2 features at the start of the subclass that are mutually exclusive.
Essentially your choice is: attack going from 1d10 probably to 1d4, and get 2 ac, or get 1 more damage than normal.



I don't understand why you're underselling at will +2 ac in a bounded accuracy system.

2. Who cares about martial arts if you are in a position where you are going to be using a bow?

So you can't use dex for unarmed strike, you are shooting a bow, at range, you were not going to be unarmed striking any way.
1d4 damage or more with unarmed strike, again you are at range so it doesn't matter.
Bonus unarmed strike as bonus action. again at range so who cares.

You can still:
Flurry of blows if you wanted to, but really not much of a reason to.
Use Patient Defense, it has nothing to do with weapons.
Use Step of the Wind, again nothing to do with your weapon.

If you're in a place to use Flurry whilst holding a non Monk weapon, then you have to use Str for it and take 1 point instead of the martial arts die (unless you're a race with natural weapons). Flurry is an option when Martial Arts is cut off, but let's face it, it's a bad one.


3. The fact it widens your options, but then you have to hope you find one of your choices for Kensei or you might as well be any monk.
Also, if you noticed they gave you more options for kensei weapons every time you get a new feature.
Do you know why?
It is because Kensei was so bare bones on useful abilities they threw it in to fill space.
You get Longbow, and essentially one of the 3 versatile 1d8/1d10 weapons, just pick slashing/bludgeoning/piercing.
What are you really going to pick after that?

Or it could be to support the weapon master subclass getting better with other weapons as they progress in levels. You put a lot of focus into the weapons themselves instead of the actual abilities of the subclass. As for what are you going to pick: a whip, any weapon that you might have come across a sweet version of or something you find fun, it's a game after all.


4. Whip is a great option, but only because they don't let you pick any of the good reach weapons.
However, having a reach weapon does what really?
It lets you attack the enemy and be able to move away without them being able to hit you back. Which is great.
However:
Open Hand can stop all reactions on an both attacks with flurry.
Shadow can shadow step out anyway.
Drunken master gets a free disengage with every flurry, and get bonus movement.
Sun Soul just straight up has a ranged weapon.

The fact you can get a reach attack is a bandaid really just to make you about even with most other subclasses.


Open Hand and Drunken need to Flurry (spending Ki) to achieve that, so what happens when they're out of Ki? What happens if there isn't suitable shadow to step away into? Sun Soul's primary ranged attack is just worse than using a longbow, it's highlights are radiant as a damage type and the option of (yet again) burning Ki on it. The Kensei is largely an at will subclass, that has it's own benefits.



5. You mentioned: "If you're using a Longbow, then you're either don't need to or aren't in a position to do those things." (flurry, dash, disengage, dodge)
That is completely true, so why do you need to be a kensei in the first place?

More damage and not needing to be locked into a certain race? This seems self explanatory.


6. Enchanting their unarmed strikes is something that EVERY monk has needed since 5e came out since they didn't bother to put in gloves/handwraps/cestus/knucks or anything else.
If Kensei could pick unarmed strike, or fist as a kensei weapon, I would dive on this subclass like a hungry dog.
But they cant, so either 1/3, 1/2, or maybe even 3/4 of your attack which will be unarmed, get nothing.
Also as you mentioned, having kensei weapon choices makes it a better chance you will find a magic weapon.
Well, if that weapon is a +1 or has it as part of it's abilities, your big level 11 feature is useless.
I might could see it being useful if you at least had to option to override.
If your group is going to find a flametongue, what is the chance they give it to the monk, who at the most swings it twice, instead of the Fighter or someone else?

Hard disagree on it being something every Monk needs, they all get magical unarmed strikes and 4E Monk gets Fangs of the Fire Snake. Either way something you perceive as a fault of the class as a whole should not be shoveled onto the Kensei.

So what's the chance that they give it to the hyper mobile character that can further enchant it to be up to +3 to hit and damage on top of being a Flame Tongue (or whatever else)? I think pretty reasonable, especially since your flaw here is relying on there being a martial character better suited for it than the Kensei. Maybe the Fighter (if there even is one) is ranged based or uses great weapons, maybe the only other martial is a Rogue if there even is one to begin with. The Monk can take the weapon and make it better, which will also make them more likely to hit and get more chances to force saves against Stunning Strike.


7. I doubt that that UA ever go live so it probably doesn't matter. It never even made it onto DNDBEYOND, but that might have more to do with how hard it would be to impliment.


I can't see Class Variants not making it into publication in some form or another and I believe the delay was that the way DDB is coded didn't allow for integration so they basically needed to start from scratch. At this point whether or not it will still happen is up in the air.



In the end, yes, Kensei is a lost cause but it is paying a HUGE price in mediocre at best abilities to be just a theme subclass.

Have you actually played a Kensei and found it so lacking that you wished you were anything else but that? They're the best Monk at weapons, they are the best Monk at AC, they're the best Monk at ranged. They have a niche and they fill it with their later abilities just adding onto what they can already do to keep them competitive.


I used to love Kensei in other editions, the weapon specialist is always a cool concept, but mechanically they screwed the pooch.
What do you actually want the Kensei to do that it doesn't do already?

[Misterwhisper]

The core abilities of the Kensei at 3rd are Agile Parry and Kensei Shot, the option to grab slightly more on average damage vs a quarterstaff is gravy, not the meat. At will adding +2 to your AC without action economy cost is a good ability, having it attached to a choice is not a bad thing. The Kensei is the best archer Monk in the game (as well as Dart thrower), this is also a highlight. They are the best Monk at using weapons, that is the aim of the subclass and it achieves it, making concepts a lot easier for a lot of builds.





If you're in a place to use Flurry whilst holding a non Monk weapon, then you have to use Str for it and take 1 point instead of the martial arts die (unless you're a race with natural weapons). Flurry is an option when Martial Arts is cut off, but let's face it, it's a bad one.



Or it could be to support the weapon master subclass getting better with other weapons as they progress in levels. You put a lot of focus into the weapons themselves instead of the actual abilities of the subclass. As for what are you going to pick: a whip, any weapon that you might have come across a sweet version of or something you find fun, it's a game after all.



Open Hand and Drunken need to Flurry (spending Ki) to achieve that, so what happens when they're out of Ki? What happens if there isn't suitable shadow to step away into? Sun Soul's primary ranged attack is just worse than using a longbow, it's highlights are radiant as a damage type and the option of (yet again) burning Ki on it. The Kensei is largely an at will subclass, that has it's own benefits.




More damage and not needing to be locked into a certain race? This seems self explanatory.



Hard disagree on it being something every Monk needs, they all get magical unarmed strikes and 4E Monk gets Fangs of the Fire Snake. Either way something you perceive as a fault of the class as a whole should not be shoveled onto the Kensei.

So what's the chance that they give it to the hyper mobile character that can further enchant it to be up to +3 to hit and damage on top of being a Flame Tongue (or whatever else)? I think pretty reasonable, especially since your flaw here is relying on there being a martial character better suited for it than the Kensei. Maybe the Fighter (if there even is one) is ranged based or uses great weapons, maybe the only other martial is a Rogue if there even is one to begin with. The Monk can take the weapon and make it better, which will also make them more likely to hit and get more chances to force saves against Stunning Strike.



I can't see Class Variants not making it into publication in some form or another and I believe the delay was that the way DDB is coded didn't allow for integration so they basically needed to start from scratch. At this point whether or not it will still happen is up in the air.




Have you actually played a Kensei and found it so lacking that you wished you were anything else but that? They're the best Monk at weapons, they are the best Monk at AC, they're the best Monk at ranged. They have a niche and they fill it with their later abilities just adding onto what they can already do to keep them competitive.


What do you actually want the Kensei to do that it doesn't do already?

Kensei should be the more spiritualist weapon master, you pick 1 weapon and become the master of it.


For one zen archer should be its own subclass all about archery.
Kensei should be the melee weapon specialist.

Ex.

3rd. Pick any one weapon melee weapon to be your kensei weapon. It is considered a monk weapon for you and you gain a +1 to hit and damage with this weapon.

3rd. While armed with your kensei weapon, if you are attacked by a target you can see you may spend 1 Ki point to use your reaction to gain a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency bonus plus the magical bonus of your kensei weapon against this one attack. You must make this decision before knowing the result of the roll.

6th. Your bond with your kensei weapon becomes stronger, whenever you use your martial arts bonus attack you may make it with your kensei weapon. If this weapon can be thrown you may deliver your stunning strike ability through the weapon used as a ranged attack at a cost of 2 Ki.

11th. The attack and damage bonuses from your weapon become +2, you may also now critically hit with your kensei weapon on a roll of 19 or 20.

17th. You become a master of your weapon. Your attacks made with your kensei weapon are never made with disadvantage. When you use flurry both attack may use your kensei weapon.

[Satori01]

Kensei should be the more spiritualist weapon master, you pick 1 weapon and become the master of it.


For one zen archer should be its own subclass all about archery.
Kensei should be the melee weapon specialist.


Yawn, 1e was done, why do it again, in 5e?
"Sherman, set the Way Back Machine to 1985"😀

I like the Mage Slayer feat on a Kensei, (though Defensive Duelist and Mobility are also good).

Mage Slayer + Kensei's Shot and later Deft Strike + the Target Having Disadvantage on the Concentration Saving Throw=
Disrupted Spells.

Sharpshooter makes the combo even more likely to work.

[Dork_Forge]

Kensei should be the more spiritualist weapon master, you pick 1 weapon and become the master of it.


For one zen archer should be its own subclass all about archery.
Kensei should be the melee weapon specialist.

Ex.

3rd. Pick any one weapon melee weapon to be your kensei weapon. It is considered a monk weapon for you and you gain a +1 to hit and damage with this weapon.

3rd. While armed with your kensei weapon, if you are attacked by a target you can see you may spend 1 Ki point to use your reaction to gain a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency bonus plus the magical bonus of your kensei weapon against this one attack. You must make this decision before knowing the result of the roll.

6th. Your bond with your kensei weapon becomes stronger, whenever you use your martial arts bonus attack you may make it with your kensei weapon. If this weapon can be thrown you may deliver your stunning strike ability through the weapon used as a ranged attack at a cost of 2 Ki.

11th. The attack and damage bonuses from your weapon become +2, you may also now critically hit with your kensei weapon on a roll of 19 or 20.

17th. You become a master of your weapon. Your attacks made with your kensei weapon are never made with disadvantage. When you use flurry both attack may use your kensei weapon.

That seems, well to be honest pretty boring. So your core feature is that you can use a different weapon (something that you, judging by your posts, keep thinking is the main ability of the current Kensei) and you give it a nonmagical numerical + to hit and damage and then later an expanded crit range and a worse version of Defensive Duelist.

You probably wrote taht fairly quickly and I don't want to drag you over the coals for it, I'll just point out that the 'spiritual weapon master' has magical unarmed strikes but not magical weapon attacks, that it shares some playstyle similarities with a Pact of the Blade Hexblade and is now dependent on spending Ki to use their defensive ability. I understand you want something different out of the subclass, maybe that's fondness for earlier editions (I have no idea about it in any but 5th), but I sure am glad we didn't end up with a version like that ^.

[CorporateSlave]

The thing a lot of people miss is that the Kensei doesn't have to be the best archer or the best tank. It's a better tank than an archer, and it's a better archer than a tank.

The key point of the Kensei is to use your mediocrity against their weaknesses.

Listen to this guy! I've played a Kensei up to level 10, and it has been great fun! It really hasn't bothered me that it isn't "optimized" (which bothers a LOT of people on these boards it seems), and within the party I have been quite effective for just the reason listed above - the ability to switch hit. I took Wood Elf and Mobile and there ends up being more than just the two functions, you also become incredibly fast so you can be the pursuit guy (base move of 65 which can be tripled in a Turn if need be, can run along walls and over water...) and party scout, particularly if you take Perception and Stealth skills given your likely high DEX and WIS.

Just be realistic that you're Jack of All Trades and Master of None, and you'll have more fun if you emphasize your RP element as well, and don't forget the other abilities that make monks fun - fall 10 stories without taking damage, catch that incoming arrow, charge into the fireball unscathed, etc. Don't worry too much about optimizing since there is basically always a way to make a PC better at something than a Kensei monk. But don't get persuaded that this is a bad thing, if playing a Kensei is what you want to do!

[AttilatheYeon]

If you do go the bow route I would suggest putting 1 level in Fighter for a fighting style. Sharpshooter isn't as good without the accuracy bump and if you get to 11 levels in Monk then you can add +3 on top of that and completely negate the accuracy penalty.

Alternatively Get Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master and smack fools with your longbow at -10 for +20.

HWM requires a melee attack roll, SS requires a ranged attack roll.

[Cikomyr2]

I played a halfling kensei.

Was a geezer. Just walking about innocently with his walking stick. And then turned into Yoda

[Misterwhisper]

I played a halfling kensei.

Was a geezer. Just walking about innocently with his walking stick. And then turned into Yoda

I would have so played that as a wise old wrinkly goblin.

To do that with a goblin mindset would be funny.

[Cikomyr2]

I would have so played that as a wise old wrinkly goblin.

To do that with a goblin mindset would be funny.

Nah, the point was to use Persuation (which I was proficient in, along with +2 cha bonus) to appear completely harmless.

[djreynolds]

You begin with 2 weapons.

Any versatile weapon is now 1d10... better damage til your fists catch up at 17th level.

So now you have options. That's very strong.

And it gives you choices. Sometimes you just have to kill. Sometimes you have to spread damage out. Sometimes you just have to keep the enemy busy while the wizard figures out what to cast.

At 5th level you could....
1d10 chop, 1d10 chop, and FOB
1d10 chop, 1d6 punch, agile parry and dodge as well.
1d10 chop, 1d10 chop, and dodge here or disengage.
1d10 chop, 1d6 punch, and agile parth and I think FOB

Kensei gives you choices and just additional weapons

[Misterwhisper]

You begin with 2 weapons.

Any versatile weapon is now 1d10... better damage til your fists catch up at 17th level.

So now you have options. That's very strong.

And it gives you choices. Sometimes you just have to kill. Sometimes you have to spread damage out. Sometimes you just have to keep the enemy busy while the wizard figures out what to cast.

At 5th level you could....
1d10 chop, 1d10 chop, and FOB
1d10 chop, 1d6 punch, agile parry and dodge as well.
1d10 chop, 1d10 chop, and dodge here or disengage.
1d10 chop, 1d6 punch, and agile parth and I think FOB

Kensei gives you choices and just additional weapons

However, most of those are there anyway.

1d8 attack x2, FOB
1d8 attack x2, dodge, dash or disengage.
Is already an option for every monk.

All you did was gain 1 damage or lose 2 to gain 2 ac.

I am glad you brought up monk damage hitting 1d10 later.

When that happens, all your melee kensei weapons becomes pretty pointless because all monks do the same damage and it is a certainty you will have at least one decent magic weapon.

Let’s even say you got lucky and picked long sword as a kensei weapon, which is a pretty obvious choice. And the group finds a flame tongue. Sweet, bonus fire damage and you can use your level 11 ability to make it a plus 3.

Unless that flame tongue is a short sword which every monk can use or a great sword which none of them should use.

Also, guess what, because it is a monk weapon even the short sword does 1d10.

Also, because of how great people think agile parry is if you use it you will be swinging that flame tongue once per round if you use it, with either 2 or 3 unarmed attacks.

However what is a + 2 or 3 quarterstaff drops. It is a great weapon, and any monk would love it, however now your kensei weapon choices, half your level 6 ability and your level 11 ability are pointless.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, I've always been a little confused that people pick kensei weapons for damage instead of utility. Not really sure why Kensei needs so many weapon selections, when the only real things that would make a notable difference are like the Whip and the Longbow.

[x3n0n]

Let’s even say you got lucky and picked long sword as a kensei weapon, which is a pretty obvious choice. And the group finds a flame tongue. Sweet, bonus fire damage and you can use your level 11 ability to make it a plus 3.

Unless that flame tongue is a short sword which every monk can use or a great sword which none of them should use.

Also, guess what, because it is a monk weapon even the short sword does 1d10.

Also, because of how great people think agile parry is if you use it you will be swinging that flame tongue once per round if you use it, with either 2 or 3 unarmed attacks.

To be fair, any (non-greatsword) flame tongue is still great with a +3, and it's perfectly valid (especially after "sharpening") to lean into offense at that point. Agile Parry is great, but sometimes you don't need it (like after stunning the most threatening enemy).

Your comment about the hypothetical quarterstaff +2 is totally valid, though. Not getting to sharpen is a real bummer (and I would have preferred to see something like "this cannot boost its bonus higher than 3").

[Dork_Forge]

However, most of those are there anyway.

1d8 attack x2, FOB
1d8 attack x2, dodge, dash or disengage.
Is already an option for every monk.

All you did was gain 1 damage or lose 2 to gain 2 ac.

I am glad you brought up monk damage hitting 1d10 later.

When that happens, all your melee kensei weapons becomes pretty pointless because all monks do the same damage and it is a certainty you will have at least one decent magic weapon.

Let’s even say you got lucky and picked long sword as a kensei weapon, which is a pretty obvious choice. And the group finds a flame tongue. Sweet, bonus fire damage and you can use your level 11 ability to make it a plus 3.

Unless that flame tongue is a short sword which every monk can use or a great sword which none of them should use.

Also, guess what, because it is a monk weapon even the short sword does 1d10.

Also, because of how great people think agile parry is if you use it you will be swinging that flame tongue once per round if you use it, with either 2 or 3 unarmed attacks.

However what is a + 2 or 3 quarterstaff drops. It is a great weapon, and any monk would love it, however now your kensei weapon choices, half your level 6 ability and your level 11 ability are pointless.

You realise you can pick apart every Way in the same fashion right?

What if a Shadow Monk fights in the (bright) light?

What if most Monks are in a combat where they can't close distance?

What if you don't get the chance to rest and have to fight out of Ki?

What if an Open Hand goes first in initiative and immediately nulls their 11th level ability?

What if a Sun Soul fights something with Radiant resistance/immunity?

You're deliberately hammering on what you perceive as weak points of the subclass to reinforce it's bad simply because you don't like it, going as far to speculate on magic item drops of all things. IF a +2/+3 Quarterstaff drops, what's saying the Kensei in question doesn't have staffs as one of their additional choices? Or can just pick it up at the next relevant level? You even point at a short sword dropping as a bad thing because other Monks can use them... that's irrelevant. If the Kensei has it as a Kensei weapon they're still going to get more mileage and damage out of it than any other Monk. They're meant to be the best Monk at weapons and they are.

[Misterwhisper]

You realise you can pick apart every Way in the same fashion right?

What if a Shadow Monk fights in the (bright) light?

What if most Monks are in a combat where they can't close distance?

What if you don't get the chance to rest and have to fight out of Ki?

What if an Open Hand goes first in initiative and immediately nulls their 11th level ability?

What if a Sun Soul fights something with Radiant resistance/immunity?

You're deliberately hammering on what you perceive as weak points of the subclass to reinforce it's bad simply because you don't like it, going as far to speculate on magic item drops of all things. IF a +2/+3 Quarterstaff drops, what's saying the Kensei in question doesn't have staffs as one of their additional choices? Or can just pick it up at the next relevant level? You even point at a short sword dropping as a bad thing because other Monks can use them... that's irrelevant. If the Kensei has it as a Kensei weapon they're still going to get more mileage and damage out of it than any other Monk. They're meant to be the best Monk at weapons and they are.

Shadow monk in bright light loses a short range teleport... thats it.
Can't close the distance, they pull out a short/long bow and shoot them, you are still a dex class with 2 attacks.
You still going first, there is no guarantee you will be making an attack, you may need to dash and move to get to the enemy, which you can do as a bonus action and if you want just ready an action.
If the plan was going to be to attack them anyway, it would drop soon anyway. It is not like they can't attack, they just can't attack you.
You mean the entire 4 creatures in the game with radiant resistance? also all of them are Lawful Good angels

Why would a kensei pick quarterstaff? It is already a monk weapon. that and the short sword is to point out that you don't have to be a kensei to have good weapons.
Also, no just because a kensei has it does not mean they will get more damage out of it.
After level 17 there is no damage bonus at all unless you miraculously stumble onto one of the few magic weapons with great other bonuses but NOT a +1/2/3
If you find a magic +1/2/3 monk weapon, you get no damage bonus at all because every monk uses it the same.



As a matter of fact I will even make a list of all weapons in the DMG, that are magical but NOT +1/2/3,

Dancing Sword - no bonuses to attack and damage, and is essentially a magical sword that you can cause to fly around and hit people as a bonus action.
Also, it can be any sword so no 100% chance you will be able to use it when you find it but you could later.
Note- it is very rare and requires attunement For what it does that is overpriced. I would probably sell it.

Flame Tongue as long as it is not a greatsword. One of your best choices.

Fostbrand: half the damage bonus of flame tongue but gives fire resistance.

Javelin of Lightning: not bad, but one use per day. otherwise it is just a normal javelin.

Mace of Disruption: only a bonus if fighting fiends or undead, but maces are just straight inferior to warhammers.

Mace of Terror: only has 3 charges, and only gets back 1d3 per day, otherwise it is a worse warhammer.

Oath Bow: An amazing longbow and probably the one you want, however as long as your oath is active you have disadvantage with unarmed strikes.

Sword of Life Stealing: A good choice, it has a good ability but it will go to a fighter first due to more attacks.

Sword of Sharpness: another pretty good choice.

Sword of Wounding: Great for a hit and run type character.

Vicious Weapon: ok if you find it, I wouldn't buy it.

I would mention a weapon of warning, but you don't even have to be proficient or even using it to get it's bonus.

Here is the 3 main issues.

1. Over half of those, and really all the good ones but oathbow, can also just be found as normal monk weapons, so you don't have to be a kensei to use them if you really wanted.

2. Most of those weapons are ONLY going to be good because you can make them a +3 weapon, but then again you can do that with a mundane one too.

3. Cost: Say you find a Flame Tongue longsword and it is one of your kensei choices, it would be my first choice. Would you rather attack with a +2 or so magical monk weapon that is always active, or use a weapon that is better damage but only if you spend 3 ki every fight? I would rather have a +1/2 that is always on than one with better damage that costs me 3 ki a fight.


Just a side point:

All your subclasses except your capstone, which admittedly is very good, ONLY work with your kensei weapons, not all monk weapons.
So you did not expand your weapon choices at all, you went from ALL monk weapons, to only your choices of kensei weapons.
If you end up using a normal monk weapon that is not a kensei weapon, then why bother with kensei at all?

[x3n0n]

Trying to get back to OP's proposals:

Sounds like you've got a solid idea of how you'd like to build if focusing on the Longbow. I don't see anything easy to add in tier 2. In AL, are you always playing from 1st level? If so, I'm not sure when you should take Fighter 1; delaying Monk 5 is really painful. If you have the magical Longbow already, I'd probably go 1-5 Monk, then Fighter 1 to start stacking Archery/Sharpshooter with Extra Attack. Starting with Fighter 1 gets you Second Wind and lots of starting loot, though.

If you decide against Sharpshooter, then I'd probably also stay straight Monk. Defensive Duelist, Mobile, Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, and Wood Elf are all defensible, I think.

[Dork_Forge]

Shadow monk in bright light loses a short range teleport... thats it.
Finding a +3 Quarter Staff only loses sharpen the blade that's it... it's still an ability being neutralised, would you rather I pointed out the flaw of getting Darkness but not the ability to see in it?


Can't close the distance, they pull out a short/long bow and shoot them, you are still a dex class with 2 attacks.
A long bow if you are a race that gives the prof, otherwise a shortbow... which all other Monks are far worse at using than a Kensei that: 1)Can use a Long Bow, 2)can scale its damage with the martial arts die, 3)can add 1d4 to the damage, 4)can Monk Smite essentially on it and 5)can make it up to a +3. All Monks could whip out a shortbow sure, how many Monks even carry a short bow? And if they do they're significantly worse at it than the Kensei. Subclass doing its job just fine here.


You still going first, there is no guarantee you will be making an attack, you may need to dash and move to get to the enemy, which you can do as a bonus action and if you want just ready an action.

A Monk needing to dash at the start of combat is very rare ime, but sure, that still leaves your action which you've no good reason to not try and stunlock everything in sight. Going first makes the ability pointless in most cases.


If the plan was going to be to attack them anyway, it would drop soon anyway. It is not like they can't attack, they just can't attack you.

Yes, it's a pretty bad ability most of the time.


You mean the entire 4 creatures in the game with radiant resistance? also all of them are Lawful Good angels

This is just wrong:

There's 6 creatures with immunity (3 of which are Evil and 1 of which is neutral, not that alignment really means much)

There's 15 creatures with resistance one of which is the big bad of one of the more recent adventuers (Zariel)

Source: The search feature of D&D Beyond ignoring a double instance of Zariel


Why would a kensei pick quarterstaff? It is already a monk weapon. that and the short sword is to point out that you don't have to be a kensei to have good weapons.
Because that is what the player wants to do or because there's a lot of sweet magical staffs out there.



Also, no just because a kensei has it does not mean they will get more damage out of it.

Deft Strike and unless it's a +3, Sharpen the Blade.


After level 17 there is no damage bonus at all unless you miraculously stumble onto one of the few magic weapons with great other bonuses but NOT a +1/2/3
If you find a magic +1/2/3 monk weapon, you get no damage bonus at all because every monk uses it the same.

You seem to think the presence of a +1/+2 weapon makes Sharpen the Blade worthless, it doesn't. It means that you get to use that weapon most of the time, saving your Ki for Deft Strikes and Flurries and when you need to you can pull out a mundane (or otherly magical) version and pump it to a +3, getting more accuracy and damage.


As a matter of fact I will even make a list of all weapons in the DMG, that are magical but NOT +1/2/3,

Dancing Sword - no bonuses to attack and damage, and is essentially a magical sword that you can cause to fly around and hit people as a bonus action.
Also, it can be any sword so no 100% chance you will be able to use it when you find it but you could later.
Note- it is very rare and requires attunement For what it does that is overpriced. I would probably sell it.

Flame Tongue as long as it is not a greatsword. One of your best choices.

Fostbrand: half the damage bonus of flame tongue but gives fire resistance.

Javelin of Lightning: not bad, but one use per day. otherwise it is just a normal javelin.

Mace of Disruption: only a bonus if fighting fiends or undead, but maces are just straight inferior to warhammers.

Mace of Terror: only has 3 charges, and only gets back 1d3 per day, otherwise it is a worse warhammer.

Oath Bow: An amazing longbow and probably the one you want, however as long as your oath is active you have disadvantage with unarmed strikes.

Sword of Life Stealing: A good choice, it has a good ability but it will go to a fighter first due to more attacks.

Sword of Sharpness: another pretty good choice.

Sword of Wounding: Great for a hit and run type character.

Vicious Weapon: ok if you find it, I wouldn't buy it.

I would mention a weapon of warning, but you don't even have to be proficient or even using it to get it's bonus.

Here is the 3 main issues.

1. Over half of those, and really all the good ones but oathbow, can also just be found as normal monk weapons, so you don't have to be a kensei to use them if you really wanted.


So...? You're still holding onto Kensei giving access to other weapons as a key feature and ignoring that making even a Monk weapon a Kensei weapon gives you
a lot out of it.


2. Most of those weapons are ONLY going to be good because you can make them a +3 weapon, but then again you can do that with a mundane one too.

I don't really see why this is an issue at all, you found a magic weapon you can use as a Kensei weapon, you can then improve that weapon. That is a good thing and any benefit is better than a mundane weapon unless it's cursed.


3. Cost: Say you find a Flame Tongue longsword and it is one of your kensei choices, it would be my first choice. Would you rather attack with a +2 or so magical monk weapon that is always active, or use a weapon that is better damage but only if you spend 3 ki every fight? I would rather have a +1/2 that is always on than one with better damage that costs me 3 ki a fight.


That doesn't make sense, a Flame Tongue is always better damage than a +1/+2 always on unless you're fighting a fire immune enemy, you don't need to make it a +x weapon to make it good. So would I rather have a +1/+2 or a Flame Tongue? Probably the Flame Tongue, though let's be realistic here, players often don't get choices like this, loot is dropped and you divy it up the best you can. Though you have already referenced buying and selling items, so I think this is table bias on both sides.


Just a side point:

All your subclasses except your capstone, which admittedly is very good, ONLY work with your kensei weapons, not all monk weapons.
So you did not expand your weapon choices at all, you went from ALL monk weapons, to only your choices of kensei weapons.
If you end up using a normal monk weapon that is not a kensei weapon, then why bother with kensei at all?

...Why would you be using a Monk weapon that is not a Kensei weapon for them? How often are players actually chopping and changing the type of weapon they use outside of prison scenarios or profs being unlocked?

A normal Monk player will decide what their character is carrying and if they're going for optimisation (and more stereotypical flavour) will go with a Quarterstaff. They will likely use that (or whatever they chose) until they retire the character unless they find a sweet magical Monk weapon that isn't whatever their character likes.

A Kensei will pick weapons they like and continue to use them in the same fashion as the Monk above, with the option to choose additional Kensei choices to cover bases in case of magical loot or to utilise already found magical loot. Their options have been expanded because they can choose to use weapons a normal Monk normally can't without racial profs or losing Martial Arts.

I can see what you're saying, I just don't think in actual play it matters at all the majority of the time.

I also don't really think I'm going to be able to change your mind here as you have a heavy dislike against the kensei and seem to be very focused on the access to other weapons part as well as the seeming prominence of +x Monk weapons in your games.

[Hairfish]

Step one would be finding exactly you want to do with a monk.

Step two would be picking any other subclass to do it with besides Kensei because they just suck.


Oh, you again. Why do you persist in answering a different question the the one being asked? The OP stated up front that they were aware that some people may see the the kensai as a sub-optimal choice, yet were still determined to play one. If you can't or won't help with that, go away.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, if you're playing in AL, I recently did a T4 epic with a Kensai Monk that had...I believe a max of 33 or 34 AC? I'm not entirely sure how he did it, since it wasn't my build, but it is do-able. So you'd end up becoming quite the tank for the party. Heck, if it wasn't for my character, a character I had designed around maxing out AC, he'd have had the highest AC in the entire group. And even then, he was only two or three points of AC away from my Paladin/Sorcerer with +2 Full Plate, Staff of Power, Ring of Protection, +3 Shield, Defense Fighting Style, Haste, and the Shield spell. And he had far better saves to boot...outside of my Charisma save that is.

[prototype00]

I mean, if you're playing in AL, I recently did a T4 epic with a Kensai Monk that had...I believe a max of 33 or 34 AC? I'm not entirely sure how he did it, since it wasn't my build, but it is do-able. So you'd end up becoming quite the tank for the party. Heck, if it wasn't for my character, a character I had designed around maxing out AC, he'd have had the highest AC in the entire group. And even then, he was only two or three points of AC away from my Paladin/Sorcerer with +2 Full Plate, Staff of Power, Ring of Protection, +3 Shield, Defense Fighting Style, Haste, and the Shield spell. And he had far better saves to boot...outside of my Charisma save that is.

Hmm, let me do some back of the napkin calculations for Kensai Monk here.

Max Wis and Dex w/ASIs so +6 and +6 respectively with tomes (+12)
Blessing of Protection (+1)
Bracers of Protection (+2) (Attunement)
Ring of Protection (+1) (Attnement)
Cloak of Protection (+1) (Attunement)

Feat: Defensive Duelist? So +6 for a grand total +33

So yeah, 33 using Reaction against one attack is doable for a Monk. Impressive.

[Dork_Forge]

Hmm, let me do some back of the napkin calculations for Kensai Monk here.

Max Wis and Dex w/ASIs so +6 and +6 respectively with tomes (+12)
Blessing of Protection (+1)
Bracers of Protection (+2) (Attunement)
Ring of Protection (+1) (Attnement)
Cloak of Protection (+1) (Attunement)

Feat: Defensive Duelist? So +6 for a grand total +33

So yeah, 33 using Reaction against one attack is doable for a Monk. Impressive.

You're not accounting for Agile Parry (+2), which would remove the need for the two stat tomes or potentially push it higher.

[Yakmala]

You're not accounting for Agile Parry (+2), which would remove the need for the two stat tomes or potentially push it higher.

Swap out the Cloak or the Ring for a Defender sword and boost that another 2, so we're looking at an AC of 37 with Agile Parry. I'd probably swap one of the other +1 items for a Cloak of Displacement, lowering the total to AC 36 but with disadvantage for the attacker without having to waste Ki on Patient Defense.

[Witty Username]

Do you get agile parry if the kensei weapon your holding is a longbow?

A lot of hate toward sharpen the blade, am I the only one here who has had their magic weapons stolen and was forced to improvise? that and magic weapons take up a slot that could be used for other magic items.


Kensei is, imo, the best fighting monk, decent ranged and melee options, and the ability to shift between high AC and high damage (AC and damage relative to monk). I would advise making choices that maintain that flexibility. Raising dex should probably be the first priority, I would then take mobile to double down on engaging enemies on your terms rather than theirs.

[etrpgb]

I just want to suggest the first three extra weapons you should take: Whip, Longbow, one of Battleaxe/Warhammer/Longsword.

The Whip gives you range, that's basically the only weapon that allows to do so for a Monk;
the Longbow is obvious;
the Battleaxe basically brings the damage to the best your punches can do.


I did not read the whole thread so I might be repeating, in the case. Sorry.

[paladinn]

Pardons for being late to the game. I've often wondered if a kensai would do better as a fighter subclass than as a monk. The kensai automatically lends itself to being "the ultimate [fill in the weapon blank]", which also would lean it toward fighter.

Has anyone seen such a subclass?

[Man_Over_Game]

Pardons for being late to the game. I've often wondered if a kensai would do better as a fighter subclass than as a monk. The kensai automatically lends itself to being "the ultimate [fill in the weapon blank]", which also would lean it toward fighter.

Has anyone seen such a subclass?

I kinda did something kinda like that, kinda.

Was a Weaponmaster subclass, swapped weapons for various buffs, buffs were based on the traits each weapon had. So Slashing would give a damage bonus, Heavy would cause the weapon to roll a new attack roll against a target adjacent to the first if you missed, etc.

The starter feature was just a list of buffs you got when attacking with that weapon, but a later feature allowed you to add that buff onto all future attacks for the turn (so you had incentive to swap them out constantly). Mid-level utility feature gave you Advantage on Sleight of Hand or Stealth checks to hide your gear, and made weapons you had equipped to weight half as much.

Seemed a bit OP, but also just a lot of fun.

[Igotnothin]

Has anyone seen such a subclass?

This was the case in the Baldur’s Gate video games. Kensei was an unarmored dual wielding quisinart once you got bracers of defense and a cloak of protection.

[sithlordnergal]

Do you get agile parry if the kensei weapon your holding is a longbow?

A lot of hate toward sharpen the blade, am I the only one here who has had their magic weapons stolen and was forced to improvise? that and magic weapons take up a slot that could be used for other magic items.
.

No, Agile Parry specifically calls out that you need to use a Melee Weapon.

As for Sharpen the Blade, it has its uses in special situations, but using it to make a non-magical weapon into a magical is a poor use of the ability. It only lasts 1 minute, it costs Ki to use, and it comes online far too late. By the time you get it, all of your attacks are naturally magical due to that 6th level Monk ability. Personally, I'd have it last for 10 minutes, that way it can last an entire combat encounter.

As I said though, it does have some special uses. Its worded similarly to Improved Pact Weapon, and would allow you to wield a +3 Flametongue Longsword. But outside of those situations, its a waste of your Ki.

[Zalabim]

No, Agile Parry specifically calls out that you need to use a Melee Weapon.

As for Sharpen the Blade, it has its uses in special situations, but using it to make a non-magical weapon into a magical is a poor use of the ability. It only lasts 1 minute, it costs Ki to use, and it comes online far too late. By the time you get it, all of your attacks are naturally magical due to that 6th level Monk ability. Personally, I'd have it last for 10 minutes, that way it can last an entire combat encounter.

As I said though, it does have some special uses. Its worded similarly to Improved Pact Weapon, and would allow you to wield a +3 Flametongue Longsword. But outside of those situations, its a waste of your Ki.
If you use the buffed weapon four rounds (this turn plus three more turns, for 8 total attacks), then it's more than worth its cost. It can be stacked with flurrying if you just want to deal more damage. It's better for a ranged weapon where flurry and stunning strike aren't going to be options, kensei's shot isn't as good as an extra attack, and also benefits from the increased accuracy.

[Millstone85]

Personally, I'd have it last for 10 minutes, that way it can last an entire combat encounter.Your combat encounters are 100-round long?

[Dork_Forge]

No, Agile Parry specifically calls out that you need to use a Melee Weapon.

As for Sharpen the Blade, it has its uses in special situations, but using it to make a non-magical weapon into a magical is a poor use of the ability. It only lasts 1 minute, it costs Ki to use, and it comes online far too late. By the time you get it, all of your attacks are naturally magical due to that 6th level Monk ability. Personally, I'd have it last for 10 minutes, that way it can last an entire combat encounter.

As I said though, it does have some special uses. Its worded similarly to Improved Pact Weapon, and would allow you to wield a +3 Flametongue Longsword. But outside of those situations, its a waste of your Ki.

Lasting a minute is pretty much a fluffy way of saying it lasts an encounter (as most won't last 10 rounds) but the point of the ability isn't to make a weapon magical (that part is redundant because of the level 6 ability as you say), the point is to increase accuracy with a side of minor damage increase. It allows a Kensei to hit more often meaning that not only does it naturally increase damage output, it gives the Kensei more opportunities to stun.

As for it costing Ki points, of course it should, every subclass has abilties that cost Ki and getting that ability for free would be a bit much (even if limited to Wis a day, unless that was a +1 with the option to spend Ki to raise it to +2/+3).

[sithlordnergal]

Your combat encounters are 100-round long?

Ehh, they range between 10 and 20 rounds more often than not, with 15 rounds being the average length of combat when I'm playing. =/

This is usually because my DMs enjoy making it rather difficult to reach our target, by having them retreat, hide, and then attack, or by using spells to make it more difficult to attack them.

It also doesn't help that my friends aren't very...tactical. They're learning...but when the only tank in the party is a Barbarian that flees from combat to take the Hide action whenever he gets below 100 hp, while the dragon you're fighting is using cover on a cliff and likes to make fly-by breath attacks and its Kobold servants are attacking you from cover...it takes a while.

[Misterwhisper]

Ehh, they range between 10 and 20 rounds more often than not, with 15 rounds being the average length of combat when I'm playing. =/

This is usually because my DMs enjoy making it rather difficult to reach our target, by having them retreat, hide, and then attack, or by using spells to make it more difficult to attack them.

It also doesn't help that my friends aren't very...tactical. They're learning...but when the only tank in the party is a Barbarian that flees from combat to take the Hide action whenever he gets below 100 hp, while the dragon you're fighting is using cover on a cliff and likes to make fly-by breath attacks and its Kobold servants are attacking you from cover...it takes a while.

what in the sweet blue flames of hades is going on at your table that a combat lasts 10 to 20 rounds.

In the history of play, running, and owning a gaming store that hosted multiple games a week I have NEVER seen a combat last 10 rounds ever.

Heck the longest I remember is 7, and that is only because someone cast Fog Cloud on the whole combat and people had to track each other down.

[Witty Username]

No, Agile Parry specifically calls out that you need to use a Melee Weapon.

As for Sharpen the Blade, it has its uses in special situations, but using it to make a non-magical weapon into a magical is a poor use of the ability. It only lasts 1 minute, it costs Ki to use, and it comes online far too late. By the time you get it, all of your attacks are naturally magical due to that 6th level Monk ability. Personally, I'd have it last for 10 minutes, that way it can last an entire combat encounter.

As I said though, it does have some special uses. Its worded similarly to Improved Pact Weapon, and would allow you to wield a +3 Flametongue Longsword. But outside of those situations, its a waste of your Ki.

Ki-empowered strikes only applies to unarmed attacks, and gives no bonus to atk and damage rolls. If you happen to not have a +3 monk weapon, the accuracy and damage can be worth it, as it is more reliable than stunning strike to work and can be used in tandem if you need to bring down a foe bad enough.

P.S. I think I have been in a few combats that reached 20 turns, most parties I have been in wouldn't survive 20 rounds of combat, generally speaking 3-5 rounds is when people start thinking something has got seriously wrong.

[Hytheter]

Ki-empowered strikes only applies to unarmed attacks

The Kensei gets a feature at the same level which does the same thing for Kensei Weapons though.

[Vogie]

I find the Kensei fascinating, and the naysayers that huff and puff can just go ahead and make a Kobold Horrible Death Check

I'm still waiting for a player to ask me to be jackie chan and I say yes, you CAN choose improvised weapons as your Kensei weapon. Beat that dragon with your +3 Barstool.

I like the Kensei as a DM because it lets me actually make things for them. Sharpen the blade is an AMAZING gift to a DM, who will finally have the ability to create interesting weapons without incredibly dull +X bonuses.

I love the kensei as a player, too. Suddenly I can want loot? I use weapons like Handaxes or darts without looking like an absolute imbecile? I can smite like a friggin' paladin? If I dip into a class with fighting styles or weapon requirements, I can use class features!?! Hooray!


what in the sweet blue flames of hades is going on at your table that a combat lasts 10 to 20 rounds.

In the history of play, running, and owning a gaming store that hosted multiple games a week I have NEVER seen a combat last 10 rounds ever.

Heck the longest I remember is 7, and that is only because someone cast Fog Cloud on the whole combat and people had to track each other down.

Maybe he meant turns? He's got to have meant turns.

I mean, the longest combat I've had was 9 rounds, and that's because the low-level party of 3 completely unnecessarily faced down a not-originally-hostile-NPC who was immune to BPS from nonmagical weapons. They mostly just tried not to die while the Sorcerer just tried to nova poorly.

Ooh, maybe it was a brutal, gritty realist game, where they actually have to fletch arrows if they run out during the fight, and healing takes a couple rounds to happen, and your weapons and armor occasionally break, forcing the players to disengage, put on more armor, then return fighting.
..... actually that sounds so absurd I like it. I couldn't do it with my current group (6-7 when I DM), but I'd love to run a game that intricate for a smaller group.

[sithlordnergal]

Maybe he meant turns? He's got to have meant turns.

I mean, the longest combat I've had was 9 rounds, and that's because the low-level party of 3 completely unnecessarily faced down a not-originally-hostile-NPC who was immune to BPS from nonmagical weapons. They mostly just tried not to die while the Sorcerer just tried to nova poorly.

Ooh, maybe it was a brutal, gritty realist game, where they actually have to fletch arrows if they run out during the fight, and healing takes a couple rounds to happen, and your weapons and armor occasionally break, forcing the players to disengage, put on more armor, then return fighting.
..... actually that sounds so absurd I like it. I couldn't do it with my current group (6-7 when I DM), but I'd love to run a game that intricate for a smaller group.

No, I mean rounds. The only time combat doesn't go above 10 rounds is in AL games where combat is a lot easier, or against small encounters. Against anything that's actually serious, its always more than 10 rounds. I've had plenty of games where we end in the middle of combat to pick up in the same place on the next week. Part of it is because my DM likes to do special stuff. For example:


Our party had discovered an Aboleth controlled town when we were low level and returned to kill the Aboleth when we were better suited. We found it just as it was completing its ritual, and we had 6 rounds to kill it. We failed to kill it in 6 rounds...and it summoned a giant moth beast that was resistant to most of our attacks magical, immune to Radiant damage which prevented the Paladin from bursting it down, and had about 150 or 160 HP. Said moth beast began killing everything, and took 5-6 rounds to kill. That's 11-12 total rounds right there.

When we took down the moth, it was revealed to be an automation with a separate pool of health, and we began fighting it. Thankfully by now the Aboleth was helping us because it couldn't control the big Moth robot. So it only took another 4-5 rounds to kill. Now we're at about 15-17 rounds. BUT, surprise surprise, the Aboleth turned on us, and tried to kill us when the automation was dead. So we spent about 3 rounds finishing off the Aboleth.

One, singular, encounter that took between 18-20 rounds. Then there was the encounter against an evil Paladin that had a permanent Confusion aura and could also cast Plane Shift to heal himself. Said Paladin was also flying, and half the party were melee fighters stuck on the ground or on a ship with no way to reach him, so they were plinking away at a 20 AC enemy with javelins. While the only two people who could do range, myself and a Ranger, shot at him whenever we weren't Confused.

It doesn't help that my party does not know how to focus fire at all. They all run off to target their own enemies, leaving me to try and help whoever is fighting the most dangerous target. Nor did it help that for a long time, I was the only arcane caster in the party because we lost a player and I couldn't swap my character until my current character died. I was trying to provide the magical power and utility that a Wizard, Bard, or Sorcerer can bring...as a Swashbuckler Rogue/Hexblade Warlock. So we had no AoE outside of two castings of Shatter, meaning we had to target each mook individually.


EDIT: Heck, I still am the only arcane caster in the party. Its just easier now because I'm a Lore Barb/Warlock, and snagged some powerful AoEs. Sadly most of my spells are useless right now because we just happened to bring my character in at the start of a dungeon where almost everything is immune to psychic damage, fire damage, and resistant to Force damage. @_@
----

I mean, its not really a complaint though. I enjoy doing similar things to my players. For example, my own players had an encounter that lasted well above 10 rounds because I set up a massive room that included underwater combat, special crystals that turned any spell cast into an AoE that covered the entire room except a small 20 foot area that I forgot to cover. The entire party stayed in that 20ft square, afraid to advance, because of those crystals.

[FabulousFizban]

alright, if all you want is a build I'll build you a kensei. Ignore all the garbage posts here that I gave up on reading and listen up! Just who the hell do you think I am?!

My phone with my character sheets died so I'm pulling this from memory but I think I remember it right. you didn't mention a level so I'll build you to level 10. Here you go, one of Fabulous Fizban's Famous PCs! The Pirate Sailor Dur'aan

First, you want wood elf. Don't 100% remember why but I promise you it's what you want. Oh, right, the dex and wisdom boosts.

str 10
dex 16
con 12
int 8
wis 16
cha 13

protip: You might be thinking, "but Fizban why did you dump int instead of strength? Monks don't need strength." DO NOT DUMP STRENGTH THIS IS HOW CHARACTERS DROWN. Just who the hell do you think I am?!

You will be wielding a rapier. you take 5 levels of monk gaining defensive duelist at 4th level, followed by one level of war cleric gaining shield of faith and divine favor - allowing you to choose whether you want an offensive or defensive boost in a particular combat, then 2 levels of fighter - picking up dueling fighting style, second wind, and action surge, before finally putting two more levels into monk for that sweet sweet Evasion.

A starting 16 AC is boosted to 18 when you gain Kensei at 3, 20 at 6 with shield of faith - and this without adding defensive duelist once per turn (or magic items you'll gain by leveling). Offensively you'll be alternating sword and fist to keep your bonuses up. Divine favor greatly boosts your damage dealing potential by adding a d4 to each of your many, many monk attacks (Just wait til you have Action Surge!).

Saves are a bit of a weak point, get a mantle of spell resistance if you can.

Background is Sailor. Skills are Perception, Athletics, Acrobatics, and Stealth. That's about it. Have fun and go play a monk who is a dashing scoundrel instead of a boring martial artist. Now, Let's see you grit those teeth!