Abusing inappropriately sized weapons rules

[Rebel7284]

So the thread about making a light weapon count as something more made me think.

The penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon is only -2 per size category, so for a mere -4 bonus to attack, you can have a two handed weapon that's meant for a huge creature, I wonder what ways there are to use that to do something silly!

Upon further inspection, I realized that the vast majority of light weapons in the game deal 1d6 damage or less. Improving that by two size categories only yields 2d6 which is not that exciting as you can just grab a greatsword most of the time and accomplish the same thing. Still useful for classes without martial weapon proficiency, but pretty niche!

Therefore, it's probably more helpful to focus on the special abilities of light weapons and seeing which ones get better if you can apply 1.5x Strength and Power Attack!

This is what I have so far:

- Shimalo’koa (DR352 p72)[1d8 x2 Slashing Light weapon]: The ONLY weapon I found that deals more than 1d6 damage. -4 attack for a base 3d6 damage is not great

- Manyfang Dagger (Serpent Kingdoms p152) [1d4 19-20 x2 Slashing/Piercing]: The quintessential way of breaking weapon sizing rules. This dagger multiplies all damage you deal by 4 (or 5 on a critical). Putting the base damage to 1d8 and then being able to add 1.5 strength to damage translates to being able to add 6x Strength to damage in addition to multiplying any other bonuses. This becomes the best weapon in the game.

- Crescent knife (DR275)[1d3 x2 Slashing]: You get two attack rolls and damage rolls every time you attack with Crescent Knife. A way to double your attacks is pretty awesome especially once you can apply 1.5x Power attack to each hit! Base damage is only 1d6, but any abilities that trigger on attack or hit work overtime!

- Scorpion Kama (MIC p201) [Unarmed Damage Slashing]: this might not do much besides unambiguously allowing you to apply your unarmed strike as a two handed weapon. However, there is an argument that could be made that you should count as a monk of two size categories larger. Not the most convincing argument IMO.

- Ward Cestus (AEG)[Unarmed Strike] 3.0 version of Scorpion Kama

I may look at one-handed weapons later to see if I can find something else interesting.

Anyone else have any feedback?

[Crake]

The manyfang dagger's special ability is literally just an enchantment that you could simply slap on another weapon, or, if your GM is pick about it, just dispel it, PAO it into a different kind of weapon in the 1d4 rounds it's nonmagical, and then boom, you have a weapon of any kind that you want with the enchantment, without needing to get -4 for oversizing it.

As an aside, you don't need to go to two hander to get 1.5x str and double PA modifier. 1 handed weapons can be wielded in two hands for the same bonuses (unless specified otherwise, like the rapier), so you can simply go up a single weight category for -2 instead of -4.

As for unarmed strikes, if you're allowing dragon magazine content anyway, there's the hammerfist feat in dragon compendium allows you to add 1.5x str mod to your unarmed strikes, which arguably allows your unarmed strikes to be counted as 2h weapon strike for power attack, since the flavour text is "You are trained in an unarmed fighting style that emphasizes a two-handed strike."

[Saintheart]

As an aside, you don't need to go to two hander to get 1.5x str and double PA modifier. 1 handed weapons can be wielded in two hands for the same bonuses (unless specified otherwise, like the rapier), so you can simply go up a single weight category for -2 instead of -4.

Another element for ab/use of one-handed weapons is that if you can get your light weapon upgunned to one-handed and considered an exotic weapon - maybe via Heavy material out of MoF - using it then qualifies you for Exotic Weapon Master, which, via Uncanny Blow, allows you to get 2x STR (and the usual double PA modifier) explicitly if you're wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in both hands.

More relevantly: War Fan (A&EG, OA). Small 3.0 weapon and thus likely to be considered a Light weapon, and by RAW if you win on a Bluff vs. Sense Motive check you get a +4 on all your attacks in the first round.

Collapsing Crescent Fan (SStorm): Explicitly a light melee weapon, get a +4 to attacks against flat-footed opponents with it.

Manople (SStorm): Light melee weapon, +1 to shield AC which is retained even if you attack with it.

[Anthrowhale]

Dragonsplits (MMIV) don't quite fit, but are an interesting choice when discussing odd-ball weapons. They are exotic one-handed weapons which count as light for the purpose of two-weapon fighting. With Uncanny Blow, you can wield two Dragonsplits as if they were a light weapons while power attacking as if they were two-handed weapons.

[Golbarg]

Not about a light weapon, but I remember an oddball build I did for a one-shot years back. It was some sort of gish (dont remember anything about the classes used; knowing me, probably some sort of Abjurant Champion).

Anyway, I used a large Warmace (CW) with Monkey Grip, which meant the 1d12 base damage became 3d6. Now, strap Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD) on that and you can go up to 8d6 base damage.

[Curelomosaurus]

I've always wanted to abuse the weird rules for Diopsid weapon weilding and take Monkey Grip, TWF, Oversize TWF, and Heavy Fullblade Proficiency to dual-weild Huge golden fullblades for -4 to hit and something like 16d6 damage a turn. Not sure how helpful that is, but there you have it.

Also, remember that you can abuse weapon size by making weapons smaller, too: a Small glaive is a one-handed reach weapon dealing a solid 1d8 damage for -2 to hit, which can be well worth it for a gish or sword-and-board who wants to use a reach weapon and still leave a hand free. If you're willing to spend a feat, you can even use a Small heavy fullblade/spiked chain one-handed and deal basically the same amount of damage as a Medium one, thanks to the Heavy property.

Speaking of which, are there any feats/abilities that let you use weapons that are too small without penalty?

[Bronk]

There's always the 'use oversized weapon' ability of the Titan bloodline too, enabling the use of a gargantuan two-handed warhammer no matter how small the wielder is at twelfth level.

[Saintheart]

Speaking of which, are there any feats/abilities that let you use weapons that are too small without penalty?

By virtue of extreme cheese: Tormtor School, combined with an Aptitude weapon. Whilst Tormtor School was likely just intended to remove the -4 penalty for a ranged weapon being used in melee in the specific case of a javelin, the RAW way it reads is that it removes all penalties, no matter what the source of the penalty, from javelin use. Then an Aptitude weapon allows you to do it with any weapon.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

There's always the 'use oversized weapon' ability of the Titan bloodline too, enabling the use of a gargantuan two-handed warhammer no matter how small the wielder is at twelfth level.

Hmm, I think combining that with the Wield Oversized Weapon [Epic] feat would let the character wield a Colossal two-handed warhammer... as a one-handed weapon. Throw in Oversized TWF and you can dual-wield them with only minor penalties. Make the character a Diopsid and you can skip the feats, but take some serious penalties, and once you get Wield Oversized Weapon you arguably get to wield two Colossal+ warhammers.

Then you add the Manyfang enhancement.

[Gruftzwerg]

the biggest limitation is:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

The second paragraph causes that you are limited to 1-2 size increases with most weapons. The sole weapon that can overcome this limitation is the "unarmed strike", because:

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

You just need to get "Sizing" for your unarmed strikes (e.g. Necklace of Natural Attacks). Now you can size your unarmed strike up to colossal size (-8 to hit as medium sized character).

Can be best abused with:
- unarmed strike of monk 20 (via monk/monk-prc + monk's belt or via UMD monk's belt)
- Beast Strike feat to add claw dmg to you unarmed strikes. The claws also profit from the size increase.

or abuse with clawlock for double dipping unarmed strike dmg, since Beast Strike combined with Eldritch Claws give you:
2 x unarmed strike + eldritch blast dmg.

This has better -hit to +dmg ratios (on average dmg rolls) than a "full feated Power Attack".
Have a look at my signature clawlock build if you want to see a full optimized build.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm imagining a group of high level Dexterity based sneak attack fighters with Combat Reflexes, Double Hit, Double Team, Two Weapon Fighter, and Improved Two Weapon fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, and Allied Defense wielding either 1 or 2 small awl pikes (15' reach) with a tower shield backup and plentiful supplies of Antimagic Field. The AMF and the tower shield negate nearly all ranged attacks while combat reflexes + sneak attack + awl pike exact quite a toll on many monsters closing to melee range. Any that do reach melee range would have to contend with Allied Defense ramping AC way up.

[Curelomosaurus]

Hmm, I think combining that with the Wield Oversized Weapon [Epic] feat would let the character wield a Colossal two-handed warhammer... as a one-handed weapon. Throw in Oversized TWF and you can dual-wield them with only minor penalties. Make the character a Diopsid and you can skip the feats, but take some serious penalties, and once you get Wield Oversized Weapon you arguably get to wield two Colossal+ warhammers.

Then you add the Manyfang enhancement.

You are clearly a gourmet chef when it comes to cheese. Bravo.

[Edea]

Don't forget to chuck in a couple bloodstorm blade levels, that way you can toss them, have them count as melee attacks when tossed, and initiate Iron Heart maneuvers with them while being tossed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The sun blade (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade) counts as both a great sword and a short sword, which allows you to wield (what is effectively) an oversized short sword like it's a normal short sword.

A sand (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) blaster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?415149-Sand-Blaster-MM3) is a ranged AoE weapon, and it doesn't require attack rolls. That means your proficiency and size penalties to them simply don't matter. However, the ammo weight definitely does, so unless you're cheesing it via the Hank's bow or force bow enhancements or something, this is likely not a great idea unless your carrying capacity is massive. In which case, wielding a weapon with no Str mod to hit or damage probably (but doesn't necessarily) doesn't apply to you.