Being a Con Man? DM tricking?

[blackjack50]

So. I am running a shady business man. I enjoy the role play. I like making deals and feeling out the different avenues for charisma based play. My character keeps notes on business deals. He is always looking for a money angle. He isn’t really a con man. But he isn’t NOT a con man. I have not really pulled any cons in this campaign. But I am wondering what the ethics are in terms of table manners for tricking the DM. Nothing outside of the rules, and I wouldn’t want to be a rules lawyer.

What I would be looking to do is maybe dupe a noble person in to paying lots of money for nothing with a common real con. How would y’all react if one of your PCs throws a few cons out once in a while? Especially if it gets complicated and maybe tricks you as the DM? Would that be bad manners? Or applauded?

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can't really "trick" the DM, you've gotta be honest about your plans to be dishonest with them. Whether or not you trick the NPC's is up to them.

Basically:
Do - "I want to produce forgeries and sell them like they're genuine."
Don't - "That thing that the NPC has already purchased from me is actually a forged copy, I pulled a sneaky on you DM."

[Falconcry]

Laura Bailey and a cupcake come to mind.

[Christew]

Yeah, you are talking about the arbiter of everything in the world when you talk about the DM. They are the first and the third narrative voice. The notion that you could "trick" them is weird. That said, charlatans are so baked into the game that few DMs would bat an eyelash at you being one (there's even a background for it).

[Kyutaru]

Keep in mind DMs control your wealth too. Sure, you can pull a con that gets you 50,000 gold. But I can also pull a theft that loses you twice that in magic items while you were sleeping in the inn. Or that dungeon you were sure had an entire armory of loot? It's basically empty and you ended up losing more in supplies than you gained.

Always work with the DMs. They control everything anyway. If being a con man is what you want to do then ask the DM what he thinks the etiquette should be, not us.

[Lunali]

Some DMs will enjoy a player pulling a good trick on them, but the sort of con you're talking about isn't the sort where the DM should be unaware. For a con, you'll potentially have to make opposed rolls at several points, which means the DM needs to be aware of what's happening. For a good trick on the DM, you need to inform the other players of actions or make use of a sealed envelope system or other method to verify that you planned ahead.

[Zhorn]

For a good trick on the DM, you need to inform the other players of actions or make use of a sealed envelope system or other method to verify that you planned ahead.
Very much agreeing with this. With the trick's reveal, an important part of the setup needs to be established at a time prior to the trick, with some method of canonically locking in the setup, be that a sealed note, plan reveal to a third party the DM can trust as a witness, or narrate the preparations in play prior to the trick so the DM has witnessed the important preparation, even if the reason for why it is happening isn't yet understood.

[Contrast]

Laura Bailey and a cupcake come to mind.

As awesome as that moment was, it's not a great example.

For those unaware, its a moment from Critical Role where a player tricked a hag into eating a cupcake that had been treated with a magic item that gave them disadvantage on saves when they ate it and then cast a spell on them.

The issue being, the player did not mention they had prepped the cupcake with the item prior to them eating it. Would the hag have had some way of detecting the magically muddled food before eating it (keeping in mind this was a creature who had been invisibly spying on them, even finding a moment to secretly apply it may have been a problem as well)? Only the DM knows and you aren't letting them run the game properly if you just try and rush to the final step in your plan and assume all the initial steps work out fine.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Especially if it gets complicated and maybe tricks you as the DM? Would that be bad manners? Or applauded?

Assuming I'm playing with randoms, that guy gets a talking-to and is told not to come back unless another player at the table vouches for him.

[MThurston]

I would never allow a player to say documents were fake unless it was produced as a background or made during the game by a PC.

One does not get to trick the DM.

It be like me telling you the magic sword costs 200 platinum and the PC later telling me he paid gold painted like platinum.

That would never go over well.

Now if someone was playing a guy for 2 years and then a situation came up that the player character was a woman, I wouldn't see an issue, but it be weird that the person didn't tell me earlier. The reason being one of his party members could have found out or an NPC could have showed up to blow the disguise.

[Composer99]

So. I am running a shady business man. I enjoy the role play. I like making deals and feeling out the different avenues for charisma based play. My character keeps notes on business deals. He is always looking for a money angle. He isn’t really a con man. But he isn’t NOT a con man. I have not really pulled any cons in this campaign. But I am wondering what the ethics are in terms of table manners for tricking the DM. Nothing outside of the rules, and I wouldn’t want to be a rules lawyer.

What I would be looking to do is maybe dupe a noble person in to paying lots of money for nothing with a common real con. How would y’all react if one of your PCs throws a few cons out once in a while? Especially if it gets complicated and maybe tricks you as the DM? Would that be bad manners? Or applauded?

I mean... if a player who wants to surprise me as the DM is a good friend, maybe? Thing is, even then as a DM I'd probably want to know what's being planned in case there is an ability check or two needed as part of the setup.

That stated, my players can trick, fool, con, etc NPCs, at least in principle, depending on the NPC.

Tricking a live person is more fun than an abstract notion of a person, so I can see the appeal.

[pantastic]

Laura Bailey and a cupcake come to mind.

Yeah, except that is a classic example of what not to do as a player. I love Crit Role, but that scene played out all wrong, from a rules point of view. If you're trying to deceive an NPC in a significant manner, then a deception roll is almost certainly the right mechanic to use, not "player trickery". The role playing part is great ... but expect to have to make a roll in order to succeed at it.

Rule of thumb: if you wouldn't want an NPC to be allowed to do it to your PC without some kind of roll, then a roll is required for your PC to do it to them.

Edit - bottom line: a PC can not trick the GM, because the GM exists in on a different plane than the PC does. The player must work with the GM if they want their PC to trick anybody in the game world, and that means telling the GM what trickery you want your PC to attempt.