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MagneticDuke
2020-07-26, 02:40 AM
Hello. I have a question wrapped up in a story for you all today; a player and I, let's call him George, are having a disagreement about crafting wondrous items in Pathfinder. My understanding of the situation is "If it's not listed on the requirements line, it's not a requirement." George, though, is insistent that a PC must meet or exceed the item's CL in order to create the item on top of other requirements. George and I have had rules debates before, and in the past I've been able to show him through RAW that he was misunderstanding. Similarly, George has given me some needed rules corrections, by bringing RAW to bear. He may have a habit of arguing with GMs, but most of the time it's a symbiotic relationship.

I know where George is coming from in this situation; older printings of the Pathfinder Core Rules and both printings of the Advanced Player's Guide say as such. However, both an FAQ from Paizo's website (Can't post the link due to having less than 10 posts) and core rulebook erratas for earlier printings from after the Advanced Player's Guide was published remove this line. Things get more complex; there is an errata for the APG that was published after the FAQ linked in the post, but before the core rulebook erratas, that doesn't remove the line about having to meet or exceed the item's CL in order to make it.

To prevent confusion, here's a quick timeline:

Publication of 2nd printing of Core Rulebook and APG
8/30/2010: FAQ goes live stating that the line in the APB that states that PC CL must meet or exceed CL of item is a mistake.
12/1/2010: APG errata published. No mention of the above FAQ item is in the errata, line still present in APG
5/30/2013: Final errata for Second Edition core rules printed, removes line stating that PC CL must meet or exceed item CL to craft.

To my knowledge, the APG has not had an updated errata, leading to contradictory information. I presented this to George, along with the Pearl of Power (If meeting/exceeding CL was a hard and fast requirement, why would a first-level Pearl of Power still have Cl 17?) as well as the living Wall construct, and he demanded an errata for the Core Rulebook's sixth printing. At this point, I announced "As the DM, I am final arbiter of all rules and rules decisions. If you want to run it differently at your table, that's on you."

This happened during a recent session, between downtime and combat. Is there any way I could have handled this more gracefully? Am I missing something obvious and is George actually correct? Is there a later publication that clears this up (or corrects the APG) that I'm missing? Do you have any suggestions for handling contradictory information in the future outside of my default of using the most recent information we can find?

Edited to fix typos.

Kitsuneymg
2020-07-26, 04:43 AM
I mean the pearl of power faq (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n8m) is kinda explicit on this, isn’t it? If it’s not in the requirement line, it doesn’t matter. CL is only used for determining effects and craft DC, and you can apparently craft items of spells of higher level than you can cast by raising the DC.

MagneticDuke
2020-07-26, 01:56 PM
That was my understanding as well, that if it wasn't in the requirements line, it wasn't a requirement, at lease for wondrous items. I had actually forgotten about the Pearl of Power being a special case of a wondrous item where the creator can set the CL relative to spell level, thank you for reminding me. Also, just noticed a typo in my last post, need to double back and fix that.

That still leaves the situation of how to deal with George if the argument comes up again. What's the best way to deal with a player who's arguing against both rules as interpreted by the DM and rules as written and won't take no for an answer? Is there a more graceful way to handle a situation like this than bringing out the gavel and reminding them "Rule 0 is still in effect" like I did?

Kurald Galain
2020-07-26, 02:06 PM
Frankly, I find invoking Rule Zero to be much more graceful than entering a lengthy citation-and-precedent-based argument with a rules lawyer. Whether he can gracefully accept that is on him.

Psyren
2020-07-26, 02:12 PM
The FAQ is crystal clear. Your player is wrong.

As for how you deal with someone who won't admit when they're wrong... that's not a gaming problem so much as a social interaction one. Try showing him this thread, but really your course of action depends on how adamant / forceful he's being about his incorrect views.

Segev
2020-07-26, 02:24 PM
While I don’t usually lean too heavily on this in 3.PF, the item creation rules are literally guidelines that include discussion of DM fiat being the final decision-maker for any particular magic item’s crafting. This is a little beyond the usual rule 0 stuff, since the DM is supposed to be consulted specifically rather than just having rule 0 override permissions.

Zanos
2020-07-26, 09:20 PM
Don't have a ton to add other than boosting the other folks saying your player is wrong. The Pearl of Power FAQ is still valid as far as I know.

But even if the caster level were a prerequisite, couldn't you bypass it by adding +5 to the DC? :smallconfused:

Crake
2020-07-26, 11:54 PM
I mean the pearl of power faq (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n8m) is kinda explicit on this, isn’t it? If it’s not in the requirement line, it doesn’t matter. CL is only used for determining effects and craft DC, and you can apparently craft items of spells of higher level than you can cast by raising the DC.

Keep in mind that the rule for increasing the DC by +5 for each requirement ignored is not usable for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items, so you can't just go around creating whatever scrolls you like and adding them to your spellbook as a wizard.

You can however, create a candle of invocation as early as you can afford it and make the spellcraft DC of 27, letting you conjure whatever you want nice and early in the game.

MagneticDuke
2020-07-27, 10:14 AM
Thanks for the input, everyone! I think my player and I will be able to settle things going forward. If any questions crop up, I suppose I'll revisit here if it's not so long to count as a necropost. Thanks again!

The Random NPC
2020-07-27, 06:52 PM
Keep in mind that the rule for increasing the DC by +5 for each requirement ignored is not usable for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items, so you can't just go around creating whatever scrolls you like and adding them to your spellbook as a wizard.

You can however, create a candle of invocation as early as you can afford it and make the spellcraft DC of 27, letting you conjure whatever you want nice and early in the game.

You can also create pages of spell knowledge and work with a spontaneous caster to add a spell you your spellbook.