Sorcadin help/tip

[Houster]

I'm making a half elven sorcadin(ancients/divine soul), and having trouble on my 4th level asi. We'll start at least at level 6, maybe 7.
My(point buy) stats(+1 str, +1 con, +2 cha) can vary- 16, 10/12, 13/15, 8, 10, 16/17

I want to be able to keep up concentration, have enough hp for the frontline and be able to hit stuff.
Intending to use a glaive regardless of feats cause it's cool.

Keep in mind i'll have aura of protection(going at least 6th paladin), so i'll get cha bonus to concentration saves.

Should I go-
-16 str, 12 dex(for saves and intiative), 13 con, 16 cha, asi- res(con) to go 14 con and have con prof?

-16 str, 10 dex, 15 con, 16 cha, asi- res(con) to go 16 con and have con prof?

-16 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 17 cha, asi- +2 str to go 18 str ? or asi PAM?

-Any other cool option?

Thanks!

[Neoh]

Well, Sorcadins are a bit hard and mad to build, are you set on playing Half-Elf? Variant Human would make things simpler for you.

How many levels in Sorcerer will you take? If you plan on taking many, like 14-13, maybe bumping your Con to 16 wouldn't be a bad idea, as Sorcerers only have D6 Hit Die.

I also don't think 10 or 12 in Dex is necessary, you already have you Charisma to saves. And initiative... Well, as a strength-based character, you won't be up in the list anyway. It's just a -1, 0 or +1 difference after all.

Edit : Is resilient really a priority? I mean, it looks like you'll go for levels in Paladin first and I can't think of many things that requires concentration at these levels, wouldn't it be better to wait until you've taken some levels in Sorcerer and bump your Str or Cha or take another feat first?

[Hael]

So the usual build for oath of the ancients is to go 7/13 bc the aura is that good.

Normally people build it super tanky, spear and shield. Feats would be warcaster, sentinel and max cha. Sentinel is great bc as you are the ultimate tank, things won’t go after you too much.

And while you can go pam+gwm I cant help but feel other paladins do that better and the build should be more defensive oriented.

[Houster]

Well, Sorcadins are a bit hard and mad to build, are you set on playing Half-Elf? Variant Human would make things simpler for you.

How many levels in Sorcerer will you take? If you plan on taking many, like 14-13, maybe bumping your Con to 16 wouldn't be a bad idea, as Sorcerers only have D6 Hit Die. 9

I also don't think 10 or 12 in Dex is necessary, you already have you Charisma to saves. And initiative... Well, as a strength-based character, you won't be up in the list anyway. It's just a -1, 0 or +1 difference after all.

Edit : Is resilient really a priority? I mean, it looks like you'll go for levels in Paladin first and I can't think of many things that requires concentration at these levels, wouldn't it be better to wait until you've taken some levels in Sorcerer and bump your Str or Cha or take another feat first?



I'm quite set on half elf. But still interested on how Vhuman is better.

Sorcerer levels... well I dont think we'll go very far, Thus I didn't plan far. maybe level 12 or 13. Let's presume 13, then-
Pal 7/sorc6 , or maybe better pal8/sorc5. Is 16 con right up worth the 16 str(instead of 18)?

Agreed about dex.



I love the smite spells and ancients paladin has ensnaring strike too which is wonderful. Bless/bane comes to mind and later shadow blade/blur. So i want to be able to keep them up.

[Houster]

So the usual build for oath of the ancients is to go 7/13 bc the aura is that good.

Normally people build it super tanky, spear and shield. Feats would be warcaster, sentinel and max cha. Sentinel is great bc as you are the ultimate tank, things won’t go after you too much.

And while you can go pam+gwm I cant help but feel other paladins do that better and the build should be more defensive oriented.

So you would go s&b and take warcaster at 4th?
16 str 10 dex 14 con 17 cha?

I like the guardian role and I am even going to take sanctuary so the sentinel fits in nicely, but kinda interferes with warcaster. If I take a feat at 4th, I would surely take a bump to cha or str next asi, so it would be far far away... I basically dumped the s&b approach so I would not have to take warcaster tax. I even thought not to take res(con) because of aura so I free up an asi slot(as somthing would have to be taken to take care of concentration saves).

Also what do you guys think about gwm/pam?
I think it's nice because sorcadin is so resource hungry and having "free" damage addition kinda relaxes me.

[Nhorianscum]

So you would go s&b and take warcaster at 4th?
16 str 10 dex 14 con 17 cha?

I like the guardian role and I am even going to take sanctuary so the sentinel fits in nicely, but kinda interferes with warcaster. If I take a feat at 4th, I would surely take a bump to cha or str next asi, so it would be far far away... I basically dumped the s&b approach so I would not have to take warcaster tax. I even thought not to take res(con) because of aura so I free up an asi slot(as somthing would have to be taken to take care of concentration saves).

Also what do you guys think about gwm/pam?
I think it's nice because sorcadin is so resource hungry and having "free" damage addition kinda kelaxes me.

PAM leans hard into full paladin as a big draw of sorc in this mix is quicken and that sorta fills the BA slot forever in relevant encounters.

GWM is fine-ish, it raises your damage cap, keep in mind that it does lower average damage considerably when you don't have advantage. GWM builds are "free" to delay warcaster so the choice here is mostly preferance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can wear heavy armor so Dex doesn't really matter, considering you'll add Cha to your saves.
Str 15+1, Dex 8, Con 15+1, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14+2

The only real difference between Half-Elf and vHuman is +2 Cha vs a bonus feat, but Half-Elf gets an extra skill proficiency, an extra language, darkvision, and advantage on saves against a few specific effects over going vHuman. It's basically a choice between all the cool Half-Elf traits, or being able to trade an ASI for a feat at 1st level.

Definitely take Polearm Master. If you're starting out Paladin 6 and then taking Sorcerer after, I wouldn't worry too much about casting with your hands full. A holy symbol can specifically be built into a shield, and while a Divine Soul Sorcerer still uses an arcane focus and not a divine focus, the crystal or orb arcane focus could reasonably be built into your shield as well. Or just use a quarterstaff one-handed as a staff can be used as an arcane focus, or even use a spear made from an arcane focus staff. Granted you're out of luck if you need to cast a spell with a somatic component but no material component, but you can drop your weapon for free (or lean it against your shield), cast the spell, then pick the weapon back up with your free item interaction.

[Necrosnoop110]

Have you seen this yet? Lots of good stuff: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass)

[Houster]

You can wear heavy armor so Dex doesn't really matter, considering you'll add Cha to your saves.
Str 15+1, Dex 8, Con 15+1, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14+2

The only real difference between Half-Elf and vHuman is +2 Cha vs a bonus feat, but Half-Elf gets an extra skill proficiency, an extra language, darkvision, and advantage on saves against a few specific effects over going vHuman. It's basically a choice between all the cool Half-Elf traits, or being able to trade an ASI for a feat at 1st level.

Definitely take Polearm Master. If you're starting out Paladin 6 and then taking Sorcerer after, I wouldn't worry too much about casting with your hands full. A holy symbol can specifically be built into a shield, and while a Divine Soul Sorcerer still uses an arcane focus and not a divine focus, the crystal or orb arcane focus could reasonably be built into your shield as well. Or just use a quarterstaff one-handed as a staff can be used as an arcane focus, or even use a spear made from an arcane focus staff. Granted you're out of luck if you need to cast a spell with a somatic component but no material component, but you can drop your weapon for free (or lean it against your shield), cast the spell, then pick the weapon back up with your free item interaction.

Mmmm shield and absorb elements both are reaction and somatic so impossible to cast s&b(without warcaster). Or my sorcadin will have to spend 50% of the fight bending over to his weapon. No no.

But PAM is still viable with a glaive of course. Still think it's the definitive choice?

[Houster]

PAM leans hard into full paladin as a big draw of sorc in this mix is quicken and that sorta fills the BA slot forever in relevant encounters.

GWM is fine-ish, it raises your damage cap, keep in mind that it does lower average damage considerably when you don't have advantage. GWM builds are "free" to delay warcaster so the choice here is mostly preferance.

Quicken costs 2 sorc points. It will be a looong time till I can do it more than once a day, or even a long time till I can do it at all(lvl 9). My BA will be open for some other uses per day, i'm sure.

[Nhorianscum]

So you would go s&b and take warcaster at 4th?
16 str 10 dex 14 con 17 cha?

I like the guardian role and I am even going to take sanctuary so the sentinel fits in nicely, but kinda interferes with warcaster. If I take a feat at 4th, I would surely take a bump to cha or str next asi, so it would be far far away... I basically dumped the s&b approach so I would not have to take warcaster tax. I even thought not to take res(con) because of aura so I free up an asi slot(as somthing would have to be taken to take care of concentration saves).

Also what do you guys think about gwm/pam?
I think it's nice because sorcadin is so resource hungry and having "free" damage addition kinda relaxes me.


Quicken costs 2 sorc points. It will be a looong time till I can do it more than once a day, or even a long time till I can do it at all(lvl 9). My BA will be open for some other uses per day, i'm sure.


Oh it takes up to level 12 or 13 (depending on paladin invest) for the sorc levels to actually give value at all and even then it's only on par with the greater steed paladin picks up at 13.

To me it's not a matter of "pam vs asi" but more "pam vs sorc at all" as with Ancients you really want the level 7 aura so sorc levels are actually net-neutral for spell slots up to the 4th level of sorc giving 4 levels of... no value.

Ancients Sorcadin as a 7/6 is sorta the point where the invest pays off in terms of smites on smites on smites so I'd just dump the sorc levels entirely and take PAM unless you're in it for the RP. FGS is reaaaally good.

That said of you are going for the "gassy level 13" I'd stick with dumping PAM for the all-in-invest on those payoff levels.

[Neoh]

I'm quite set on half elf. But still interested on how Vhuman is better.

Sorcerer levels... well I dont think we'll go very far, Thus I didn't plan far. maybe level 12 or 13. Let's presume 13, then-
Pal 7/sorc6 , or maybe better pal8/sorc5. Is 16 con right up worth the 16 str(instead of 18)?

Agreed about dex.



I love the smite spells and ancients paladin has ensnaring strike too which is wonderful. Bless/bane comes to mind and later shadow blade/blur. So i want to be able to keep them up.


With Variant Human you could get 16 in Str, Con and Cha by taking Resilient as your level 1 feat, at level 4 you could bump your Str or Cha to 18 or take another feat.

Are you sure you want to play with a Glaive if you plan on later using Shadow Blade? If you want to use Shadow Blade often, PAM would become obsolete and you'd just waste an ASI, but if you don't take PAM, a glaive just isn't as good as a Greatsword or a Sword and Shield.
If you really want to play with Shadow Blade, why not play a Dex paladin instead? Start with Sorcerer for Con save proficiency, Paladin gives you Light & Medium armour + Shield proficiencies. That way you save an ASI by not taking Resilient. You'd need to take 14 Con instead of 16 so you can put a 13 in Str for multiclass.
It frees your ASI from taking Resilient/PAM so you can bump your stats or take Warcaster for even better concentration, no somatic components and spell on reactions (booming blade?).
You could even go for the Elven Accuracy feat for more chances to crit with that Shadow Blade.

Talking about concentration spell, you could get rid of Blur and take Mirror Image instead, which is not concentration so you could always have concentration on your other spells. Though I understand that Blur looks really attractive when you have super good concentration.

[sithlordnergal]

As a Soradin player myself, with a level 20 Soradin and a level 20 Druordin (Apaldin/Sorcerer/Druid), I'd go with the Half-Elf. Variant Human is decent, but the Helf-Elf just gives the perfect ability score boosts. As for point buy, I'd go:

Str: 15+1

Dex: 10

Con: 13+1

Int: 8

Wis: 12

Cha: 14+2


That way you have a solid 16/10/14/8/12/16 to start. There's really no reason to have a 17 in Charisma, unless you plan on having another odd ability score, that way you can boost them both at the same time. As for your ASI, I'd take +2 to Charisma, especially if you're going to use a Glaive. You won't need Warcaster until much later, and really you'll only need it if you pick up a Shield. The +2 to Charisma is massively important though, since it boosts your Saves, your allies Saves, and your Spell Casting modifiers. As a Divine Soul Sorcerer, you're going to have access to fun spells like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians. I'm not actually sure you'll even need feats like PAM, since Spiritual Weapon will be able to do more damage as a Bonus Action.

As for the other ability scores, as a general rule I find that a 16 in strength can last you until about level 15, at which point you'll want to boost it to 18. Same with a 14 Constitution, you'll be a bit squishier then someone with a 16 Con, but you'll do perfectly fine throughout your career.

[Houster]

As a Soradin player myself, with a level 20 Soradin and a level 20 Druordin (Apaldin/Sorcerer/Druid), I'd go with the Half-Elf. Variant Human is decent, but the Helf-Elf just gives the perfect ability score boosts. As for point buy, I'd go:

Str: 15+1

Dex: 10

Con: 13+1

Int: 8

Wis: 12

Cha: 14+2


That way you have a solid 16/10/14/8/12/16 to start. There's really no reason to have a 17 in Charisma, unless you plan on having another odd ability score, that way you can boost them both at the same time. As for your ASI, I'd take +2 to Charisma, especially if you're going to use a Glaive. You won't need Warcaster until much later, and really you'll only need it if you pick up a Shield. The +2 to Charisma is massively important though, since it boosts your Saves, your allies Saves, and your Spell Casting modifiers. As a Divine Soul Sorcerer, you're going to have access to fun spells like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians. I'm not actually sure you'll even need feats like PAM, since Spiritual Weapon will be able to do more damage as a Bonus Action.

As for the other ability scores, as a general rule I find that a 16 in strength can last you until about level 15, at which point you'll want to boost it to 18. Same with a 14 Constitution, you'll be a bit squishier then someone with a 16 Con, but you'll do perfectly fine throughout your career.

Wow after this comment I am really leaning toward PAM. It's a no resource goodness, saves me taking spiritual weapon(and saves casting it), and you said 16 str is enough which was my main concern.
Another cool use for PAM that I thought about, is finishing my turn casting wrathful smite/ensnaring strike. Then they enter my reach- if they fail the save they can't get closer. Cheap sentinel.