[3.5] The Mountain Thrower

[keeper2161]

So this is my Strength Based throwing build I have been making in the last few weeks.

Race: Goliath


Attributes:

25 point buy Total 32 point buy Total

Str 14 18 16 20

Dex 15 13 16 14

Con 14 16 14 16

Int 10 10 10 10

Wis 10 10 10 10

Cha 9 9 10 10



Level 1: Fighter (take two flaws) (Dungeon Crasher Alternative Class)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Farshot, Weapon Focus (crossbow bolts), Power Attack

Level 2: Fighter

Feat: Precise Shot

Level 3: Fighter

Feat: Brutal Throw

Level 4: Fighter

Feat: Improved Bullrush

Attribute point put into dex

Level 5: Warblade

Level 6: Bloodstorm Blade

Knock Back

Level 7: Bloodstorm Blade

Level 8: Master thrower

Attribute point put into dex

Level 9: Fighter

Feat: Manticore's Sting

Level 10: Fighter

Feat: ??

Level 11: Master Thrower

Level 12: Master Thrower

Feat: ??

Level 13: Master Thrower

Level 14: Master Thrower

Level 15: Fighter

Level 16: Fighter



So with this build your main weapon will be throwing large crossbow bolts. I will explain later why. From level 1 and 2 just use a great sword or really any melee weapon. Once you get to level 3 start throwing daggers or any throwing weapon. Talk to your DM about getting some gloves that pass on their enchantments onto the throwing weapons. You know like any other range weapon does to it's ammo. Something like this at the bottom of the post https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?247386-throwing-gloves(3-5-D-amp-D-item-PEACH). Once you get to level 4 feel free to bull rush whenever you want. Once you hit level 6 and take Bloodstorm Blade you can start throwing large crossbow bolts. As crossbow bolts are improvised weapons when thrown and Bloodstorm Blade removes any penalties from improvised weapons. You want large bolts particularly because a crossbow bolt is a light weapon if its your size. As a large weapon it loses the light properties. And as a Goliath you won't take any penalties for it being large. If I am reading the rules wrong then use huge bolts and eat the -2 to attack.

Level 7 is where the build picks up. Knock back says when you hit you can bull rush with a melee weapon. For Bloodstorm Blade level 2 as a swift action all thrown attacks act like melee attacks. So this means you can bull rush from a distance. You can also start adding power attack which also adds to your bull rush roll. And, because the bolts aren't light, you can "two-hand" the bolts for the -1 to attack +2 to damage power attack. Because of Dungeon Crasher you get a 4d6+str*2. So that is 2 attacks with bull rush giving 4d6+str*2 plus the normal weapon damage and str damage plus power attack. Once you get level 8 master thrower get the weapon trick palm throw. Palm throw says "small weapon" and, for a goliath, your crossbow bolts are small. Very similar to darts. If your dm says large bolts aren't small then just use normal bolts. You will lose a bit of damage but not too much. This is where it really picks up. You lose strength damage on weapon rolls but you double your bullrush attempts. You keep the strength on the bush rush attempt. And because Knock Back says "to hit" and not "attack" it applies to palm throw. That means 4 attacks at 4d6+str*2 plus weapon damage. And you can move people around with bull rush which is always helpful. Level 9 is where you can start doing this as a standard action with a -4 to hit with Manticore's Sting. You need a 17 dexterity though so if you don't want to go through the headache of getting that just drop it. Otherwise grab some dexterity granting items, put your attribute bonus at level 4 and 8 into dexterity, and you're good to go. Also Manticore's Sting requires you to be a Mror dwarf but most people drop racial regional feats requirements so talk to your DM. But honestly Manticore's Sting doesn't really do much for damage. It just help the action economy. Level 10 is where the big damage comes in. Dungeon Crasher turns from a 4d6+str*2 to 8d6+str*3. With a 20 strength that's 4 attacks with a total, if you bull rush them into a wall or solid object, +12 to hit 32d6+60 damage plus weapon damage, and point blank shot for that extra 4 damage. Oh and as a standard action. Must be within 30ft, if you chose to keep Manticore's Sting, but honestly most combat happens within 30ft. This is where I consider the build done as most games wont go beyond level 10. Everything after that is just gravy. You can continue into anything you want after 10. I chose Master Thrower because of it's weapon tricks. One allows you to roll a concentration to throw in a threatened square to avoid attacks of opportunity. The DC is so tiny it you should hit it no problem. Another one allows you to throw as a touch attacks against your size or larger.

Now you are probably wondering why crossbow bolts. Why not literally any other weapon? Well there is a little enchantment in the Forgotten Realms book Champion of Ruin called Splitting. It splits an arrow or bolt into two. With all other enchantments on it. So with palm thrower that turns, at level 10, your 4 attacks into 8. That's eight bull rushes equaling 64d6+128 damage as a standard action, or full round if you didn't take Manticore's Sting. And for every iterative that adds 3 additional attacks, one from Palm Throw and two from Splitting, for a total of 16 attacks making 128d6+256 damage at level 16 as a standard action! And that's only at 20 strength. Just by the core rules you can get at least a 30. Keep stacking strength and that damage will only get higher. And the more strength you have the harder it is to avoid your bull rushes. And the best part is because you are a Goliath you can jump as though you were running. A five feet jump is only a DC of 20. And you can make a jump check as part of your movement. With Manticore's Sting as a standard action you can take a 5 foot movement "step" as a jump and still attack. Then using the rest of you movement fall down. So jump up five feet and pile driver your enemies into the ground with the force of a f****** mountain!

Items to grab

Gloves that pass on their enchantments to your throwing weapon. You can combine that with Gauntlets Of Extended Range to throw 40ft without penalties. You can find the rules for this in the dm's guide page 288 under adding new abilities.
Strength granting items. I would go with belt of gaint strength for added theme building.
Two arm of nyr. Together they are only 24k and give you +4 untyped bonus to strength and dexterity. Plus having mithral arms is just awesome!
Goggles of far shot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Crossbow Bolts have no range increment, they're not a ranged weapon in and of themselves, nor are they considered a thrown weapon. They are a separate weapon type called ammunition (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#meleeandRangedWeapons). Thus you cannot use them with Master Thrower's tricks, nor can you throw them by RAW, because that class feature specifies it can only be used with thrown weapons. The exception to that would be a melee weapon with the Throwing (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#throwing) property, but crossbow bolts are also not melee weapons, so they're ineligible for that.

Furthermore, Splitting has: "Effect: Any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon magically splits into two missiles mid-flight...." RAW ammunition with the Splitting property must be fired from a projectile weapon, not thrown, in order to benefit from that effect.

[keeper2161]

You can use crossbow bolts as melee weapons. You can throw melee weapons.

EDIT: By raw if you enchant bolts with splitting nothing will happen because "Any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon". The weapon has to be enchanted not the bolts.

Also Any missile fired from a splitting weapon, or an arrow or bolt enchanted with the splitting ability, breaks into two identical missiles before striking the intended target. The enchantment description contradicts itself.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can use crossbow bolts as melee weapons. You can throw melee weapons.


Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be
weapons nonetheless see use in combat—people fight with any-
thing from broken bottles to chair legs to thrown mugs. Because
such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one
in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4
penalty on attack rolls made with that object.

Weapon Focus Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Bloodstorm Blade doesn't say anything about overcoming nonproficiency, only that a normally melee weapon can be thrown without using the improvised weapon rules. You're still using the improvised weapon rules to make it considered a melee weapon, which Blodstorm Blade does not overcome.

So not only do you not qualify for Weapon Focus, you also don't qualify for Master Thrower because of that, and you still can't use the Master Thrower tricks with them due to the Weapon Focus requirement of that class feature.


Plus you still don't benefit from the Splitting property by RAW inherent to the property itself.

Edit: You've cited the flavor text, not the rules text. RAW is clear in that it must be fired from a projectile weapon to benefit from Splitting.


Edit 2: Not even a Drunken Master gains proficiency with improvised weapons. However, there's the Brawler prestige class in Dragon issue 295 p72 which gains proficiency with improvised weapons, and at the 2nd class level gains a class feature that enables you to take feats like Weapon Focus for improvised weapons. This strongly implies that it's not possible to take Weapon Focus for an improvised weapon without having that class feature.

[Menzath]

Regardless of splitting working, or how to throw crossbow bolts there is the main issue.

They are still ammunition.
So even when thrown with BsB's thunderous throw, which only treats the attacks rolls of your ranged attacks as meele, they are still ranged attacks. So your bolts still have % chance to get destroyed on use before they return.

[keeper2161]

You aren't using the return function. You are having gloves that pass on their enchantment to the bolts. As for the proficiency replace Farshot with Weapon Proficiency (crossbow bolts).

EDIT: Changed the first post to reflect new suggestions and add item suggestion. As for the splitting I will focus on the RAI. Arrows and bolt split in midair that is what the enchantment was meant to do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You aren't using the return function. You are having gloves that pass on their enchantment to the bolts. As for the proficiency replace Farshot with Weapon Proficiency (crossbow bolts).

There's no such feat as "Weapon Proficiency" that you can apply to a melee weapon crossbow bolt. Martial Weapon Proficiency can only be applied to martial weapons, which crossbow bolts are not. Same goes for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. They're a simple weapon, but you're not using them as a simple weapon, you're using them as an improvised melee weapon. There is no Improvised Weapon Proficiency feat in 3.5 edition, you can only gain proficiency with then through another meas such as the Brawler prestige class.


Edit: He was referencing this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm):

Magic Ammunition and Breakage
When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.

Doesn't matter if it comes back, it's destroyed and no longer usable.

[keeper2161]

So either make the feat or cover it under simple weapons like the crossbow is.

[keeper2161]

Actually the warblade has something that would fix all this Weapon Aptitude. You can change a feat from one weapon to another.

EDIT: Also the build doesn't want the bolts to come back. It wants to pass on enchantments from the gloves to mundane bolts.

EDIT2: Actually I just looked at the srd table of weapons and it lists crossbow bolts as simple weapons. Thus qualifying for weapon focus thus qualifying for master thrower.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually the warblade has something that would fix all this Weapon Aptitude. You can change a feat from one weapon to another.

EDIT: Also the build doesn't want the bolts to come back. It wants to pass on enchantments from the gloves to mundane bolts.

EDIT2: Actually I just looked at the srd table of weapons and it lists crossbow bolts as simple weapons. Thus qualifying for weapon focus thus qualifying for master thrower.

Again, doesn't work because as a simple weapon it's ammunition and has no stats for making attacks with it unless fired from a crossbow. When used as a melee weapon it's an improvised weapon, which is not a simple, martial, or exotic weapon, improvised is a separate category from those. You can't repick a weapon feat to an invalid weapon type, so swapping a martial or exotic weapon proficiency to an improvised weapon is an invalid selection for that type of feat.

I found this thread from a long time ago (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?205217-Improvised-weapon-proficiency-3-5), all they could come up with in that one was the Brawler prestige class in Dragon 295 as I said earlier, an improvised weapon 'proficiency' feat in that same issue which doesn't actually grant proficiency it just reduces the nonproficient penalty from -4 to -2, and the Pathfinder improvised weapon proficiency (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/flaming-crab-games/combat-feats-3rd-party-flaming-crab-games/improvised-weapon-proficiency-combat/) feat.

[keeper2161]

As far as I know the rules don't differentiate between, as in no over arcing rule general rule, when you use a weapon as a range or melee in regards to proficiency. So theoretically if you have simple weapon proficiency (crossbow bolt) you don't take any plenty for using in what ever manner you want. Whether range or melee. As I am not gaining proficiency in improvised weapons. I am gaining proficiency with crossbow bolts specifically. And they give rules on using it melee.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho your best bet is to use Shurikens. Have a look at my signature build the ShurikeNado. Makes also use of BSB together with Drunken Master to become a ranged (uber)charger. Together with Whirlwind Attack you can attack all enemies in 50ft range.

Another similar option would be my Hammerdin of Moradin build. Throws warhammers (also an ubercharger build) and get at lvl 20 the ability to make ranged full attacks in a 60ft line.

[keeper2161]

But I can't get 16 attacks as a standard action and bullrush with shurikins.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You don't need Weapon Focus specifically with the crossbow bolts. Take it with literally any other thrown weapon to qualify for Master Thrower, then just use its class features with crossbow bolts if you really want to. It'll cost you all of +1 to hit.

RE Splitting, if you're already going for gloves that apply enhancements to thrown weapons, just add Splitting to them. Though personally, I'd agree that since they explicitly state that ammunition enchanted with them splits, you can enchant ammunition with them.


Side note. Is the "ranged weapons confer their enhancements to their ammo" a general rule? I wonder if there's something you could make of that with the old 'enchant a monk's body' trick, to apply enhancements to thrown weapons. It'd probably only work with shurikens, though, since they're enchanted like ammunition...

[keeper2161]

Actually it does. It says you can only use the weapon tricks with thrown weapons you have weapon focus in. And technically if you have proficiency in simple weapons you can take weapon focus crossbows bolts and, regardless of how you use them, the weapon tricks would still apply. As the weapon tricks only look for the feat not the actually proficiency Looking it though it does seem like the -4 would still apply. But with Weapon focus the net loss is -3. And I have no idea if range weapons pass on there enchant is actually a rule. It's just...a thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As far as I know the rules don't differentiate between, as in no over arcing rule general rule, when you use a weapon as a range or melee in regards to proficiency. So theoretically if you have simple weapon proficiency (crossbow bolt) you don't take any plenty for using in what ever manner you want. Whether range or melee. As I am not gaining proficiency in improvised weapons. I am gaining proficiency with crossbow bolts specifically. And they give rules on using it melee.

Not true, if you're using a weapon in a way it wasn't designed for, it's an improvised weapon rather than a weapon of its normal classification.Specific examples of this are using a melee weapon with no printed range increment as a thrown weapon, or using ammunition as a melee weapon. The example of throwing a melee weapon still takes nonproficiency penalties because even if you're proficient with it as a simple/martial/exotic melee weapon, you're not proficient with it as an improvised thrown weapon.

A crossbow bolt has no melee or ranged stats of its own, so using it to attack in any way other than firing it from a crossbow is using it as an improvised weapon. You only have simple weapon proficiency: crossbow bolt applying when using it as ammunition, that doesn't apply when you're using it as an improvised melee or thrown weapon. Bloodstorm Blade's ability to turn weapons into thrown weapons specifically only applies to melee weapons, so it can only be applied to a crossbow bolt as an improvised melee weapon, not as a simple ammunition weapon, and again your proficiency doesn't apply.

Just put two levels of Brawler in your build so you can qualify for Weapon Focus: Crossbow Bolt when using it as an improvised melee weapon that Bloodstorm Blade turns into a thrown weapon.


However, that still doesn't change the fact that there's zero rules support for having gloves that impart a magical effect on thrown weapons. Splitting specifically can only be placed on projectile weapons or ammunition, not gloves. Even if you do put it on gloves, gloves are not a projectile weapon and so they can't impart that enchantment onto their ammunition (which is not even being used as ammunition, it's being used as an improvised melee/thrown weapon). That's on top of the RAW of Splitting saying it only applies when the ammunition (not improvised thrown weapon) is fired from a projectile weapon.

[Gruftzwerg]

But I can't get 16 attacks as a standard action and bullrush with shurikins.

Sorry but the problem is that your build doesn't work out as you intended and has major flaws that cause it to be dysfunctional...


1. "Throw Anything" is not what the name implies..

Prerequisite

DEX 15, Base attack bonus +2, Proficiency with weapon,
Benefit

You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet.
Normal

You can't throw a melee weapon without taking a -4 penalty unless it has a range increment (such as a hand axe or a dagger).
- You aren't proficient with the use of cossbow bolts as melee weapon.
- Your crossbow bolts may be used as improvised light weapons for melee attacks, but that doesn't turn them into a melee weapon overall.



2. Splitting only works for ranged attacks with a splitting weapon or its bolts/arrows enhanced that way are fired from a ranged weapon.
- When you make use of "Thunderous Throw" you aren't making "ranged attacks" anymore. You are technically making melee attacks (which still are subject to range penalties to hit from distance or your target being in melee with your allies). So the "Splitting Crossbow Bolts" wouldn't kick in with Thunderous Throw and you would loose access to your Master Thrower tricks imho.

_______________________

Further, while your "intended" build wants to have 16 attacks per turn, they don't hit as hard as they could. Charge multipliers pay off way more than anything else.
My ShurikeNado peaks at 9 attacks per turn (4 from BAB, 2 from flurry, 3 from TWF) which each hit for up to 3d2 + 120 dmg (full geared) which totals up to 27d2+1080 dmg on a single target (for all 9 attacks). Or if you have more enemies, hit all of em with Whirlwind Attack for 1d2+192 dmg (full geared).
And last, the shuriken build could get Perfect TWF (epic feat) when he reaches epic to have a total of 12 Attacks. Not the 16 you intended but close. (btw, if the goal is max amount of attacks, have a look at my glaivelock with 10 attacks @lvl 16 or 20 attacks @lvl 21(epic))

[Buufreak]

I think the part I am most confused about in all this dysfunctional build is "where are the mountains and why are they not being thrown?"

[keeper2161]

Or I can just take pathfinder improvised weapon proficiency and not have worry about all that. And just go with interpretation that splitting works when the bolt is in mid flight regardless of how it happens to be in mid flight.

[keeper2161]

Or even better don't do any weapon damage at all. The feat granted by bloodstorm blade throw anything puts a range increment on the crossbow Bolt. I won't be doing any damage with a crossbow bolt but that's not what I'm doing damage with it at the end of the build. And technically a simple weapon just doing no damage and with throw anything range increment of 10 feet it works.

EDIT: Once I get home I will remake the post with the new information and, as Buufreak has pointed out, a new name. Thank you all for helping with this build!

[Menzath]

I think the part I am most confused about in all this dysfunctional build is "where are the mountains and why are they not being thrown?"

+1

Maybe a half giant/minotaur or Goliath psiwar hulking hurler. Use the acf summon weapon to summon rocks after you take the rock hurling feat. Maybe get returning on it, or that spiffy psi returning power. All this after you use a maxed expansion power.