How to get +3d6 Sneak Attack and BAB +5 in an Epic 6 Campaign

[TheQ]

Good evening everyone,

I am fiddling with the possibilities of characters in an Epic 6 campaign and got interested in a character that makes use of the Sneak Attack of Opportunity feat and the Riposte feat as well as some other things revolving around Attacks of Opportunity. For that purpose I am looking for different interesting character builds to achieve this. Any material from 3.5 is viable, including stuff from Dragon Magazine and if someone can do it with Pathfinder that would be fine too.

What I have come up with so far is 3 Rogue + 2 Swashbuckler + 1 other with BAB +0.75 /lvl and to use the Daring Outlaw feat.

Can you think of other ways to do this?

[tyckspoon]

Sneak Attack variant Fighter - one of the Unearthed Arcana suggested variants that just exchange assorted class features - would probably be the most straightforward. Exchange your bonus feats for Sneak Attack as a Rogue, take 5 levels Fighter, boom, 5 BAB and 3d6 Sneak Attack.

[NigelWalmsley]

The variant Fighter from Unearthed Arcana that gets Sneak Attack instead of Bonus Feats should get you there. Also Warblade 5/Rogue 1 that picks up Assassin's Stance somehow.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter can get sneak attack as a Rogue instead of bonus feats (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter), that's in UA. That's often combined with Thug (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) for four base skill points/level. So you could do this with Fighter 6, get an iterative attack, get Improved TWF, and even get the E6 Fighter feat that allows you to get Melee Weapon Mastery and Improved Critical.

If you're using fractional BAB, one level each of Rogue, Spellthief, and Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), and have 3d6 sneak attack an 2.25 BAB in three levels. Your other three levels can be one level of a 3/4 BAB class and two levels of full BAB to get the +5 BAB you're after (Fighter 2/ Assassin or Avenger 1 to have 4d6 sneak attack?).

[Gauntlet]

Rogue 3 / Full BAB class 2 / Scorpion Wraith 1 also does the job, if Sudden Strike is an acceptable substitute for Sneak Attack.

[Khedrac]

Warblade/Crusader 5, rogue 1 with careful use of feats.

The feat Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance is the key - the stance grants 2d6 sneak attack which stacks with rogue 1.
The stance requires 1 shadow hand maneuver already known, which can be obtained through the martial study feat.
The stance is swordsage 3 so I think you need an initiator level of 5, but the warblade/crusader levels give that.

[TheQ]

These are some great suggestions and I can't believe I overlooked the fighter Sneak Attack variant. If you were to take two levels of said fighter variant and a level of rogue would that mean you'd actually get Sneak Attack +3d6 at level 3?

[el minster]

I don't think you get it at levels you get feats just every odd level

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You can actually get up to +4d6 SA and +6 BAB if you're willing to invest a feat. SA Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3 with the Daring Outlaw feat. This is nice, because with your first epic feat you can grab the excellent Staggering Strike.

As a side note, also take a look at the Thug variant Fighter. It's an exception to the normal rule that you can't trade a class feature you don't have anymore for an ACF, because it explicitly can be combined with SA Fighter, giving you better skills in exchange for some armor proficiencies.

[Godskook]

You can actually get up to +4d6 SA and +6 BAB if you're willing to invest a feat. SA Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3 with the Daring Outlaw feat. This is nice, because with your first epic feat you can grab the excellent Staggering Strike.

As a side note, also take a look at the Thug variant Fighter. It's an exception to the normal rule that you can't trade a class feature you don't have anymore for an ACF, because it explicitly can be combined with SA Fighter, giving you better skills in exchange for some armor proficiencies.

Where are you getting +4d6?

[Sinner's Garden]

Where are you getting +4d6?

Presumably because Daring Outlaw doesn't stack your levels in a sneak attack class, but specifically your levels in rogue, meaning he has the sneak attack progression of Rogue 3 from Swashbuckler 3, and adds that to Sneak Attack Fighter 3.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Presumably because Daring Outlaw doesn't stack your levels in a sneak attack class, but specifically your levels in rogue, meaning he has the sneak attack progression of Rogue 3 from Swashbuckler 3, and adds that to Sneak Attack Fighter 3.

Exactly. It's essentially an SA Fighter 3/ Rogue 3 but with full BAB.

[TheQ]

I don't think you get it at levels you get feats just every odd level

The reading there is ambiguous. It simply says "lose bonus feat" and gain "sneak attack (as rogue)", the point of contention being "as rogue". There are two ways to understand this:

a) You gain sneak attack "as the rogue" ability. This is similarly worded for the assassin prestige class for example.

b) You gain sneak attack with the same progression "as rogue".

Given that it explicitly replaces the bonus feat and given that "as rogue" is used to leave out the description of the ability in other classes and similar wording is used for instance in the ranger animal companion ability, it seems to me that reading "a" is more likely.


You can actually get up to +4d6 SA and +6 BAB if you're willing to invest a feat. SA Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3 with the Daring Outlaw feat. This is nice, because with your first epic feat you can grab the excellent Staggering Strike.

As a side note, also take a look at the Thug variant Fighter. It's an exception to the normal rule that you can't trade a class feature you don't have anymore for an ACF, because it explicitly can be combined with SA Fighter, giving you better skills in exchange for some armor proficiencies.

I had to think a while until I understood how daring outlaw would work here. Nice - although epic feats are not really a thing in an epic-6 campaign.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I had to think a while until I understood how daring outlaw would work here. Nice - although epic feats are not really a thing in an epic-6 campaign.

Oh no, I meant your first E6 feat, the first one you get in place of your 7th level. Calling them "epic" is just a much faster way of saying that, and it's the terminology the optimization contests use (I forgot how much that threw me the first time I heard it, too).

[Crake]

Oh no, I meant your first E6 feat, the first one you get in place of your 7th level. Calling them "epic" is just a much faster way of saying that, and it's the terminology the optimization contests use (I forgot how much that threw me the first time I heard it, too).

I mean, "E6 feat" is two fewer characters than "epic feat", so... technically "epic feat" is slower, not faster.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I mean, "E6 feat" is two fewer characters than "epic feat", so... technically "epic feat" is slower, not faster.

True, but "E6 feat" could describe any feat taken in E6, whereas in the context of E6, "epic" could only refer to the ones taken after level 6. Either works; I just defaulted to the terminology I'm used to.

[Elysiume]

Accomplished Sneak Attacker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accomplished-sneak-attacker/) can get you one die, but I don't think you can take it twice.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The reading there is ambiguous.
Given that Bonus Feats and Sneak Attack are only one class feature each, it's not ambiguous at all. You lose one, you gain another, all done.

[TheQ]

The ambiguous part is what "as rogue" means. As I have said: Does it mean...

...as the Rogue special ability, or

...as of the Rogue level progression.


Oh no, I meant your first E6 feat, the first one you get in place of your 7th level. Calling them "epic" is just a much faster way of saying that, and it's the terminology the optimization contests use (I forgot how much that threw me the first time I heard it, too).

If I had bothered looking up the feat before commenting it would have been clear that it is not an epic feat in my initial understanding.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The ambiguous part is what "as rogue" means. As I have said: Does it mean...

...as the Rogue special ability, or

...as of the Rogue level progression.
They're not different things. The rogue's sneak attack progression is laid out in the rogue "special ability" (natural ability/class feature) called Sneak Attack.

Edit: "as rogue" serves a purpose, in that you could copy an assassin's SA progression, or a spellthief's, or whatever. But there's no reading that gets you 11d6 SA instead of 11 bonus feats.

[TheQ]

They're not different things. The rogue's sneak attack progression is laid out in the rogue "special ability" (natural ability/class feature) called Sneak Attack.

Edit: "as rogue" serves a purpose, in that you could copy an assassin's SA progression, or a spellthief's, or whatever. But there's no reading that gets you 11d6 SA instead of 11 bonus feats.

I see what you mean.

[Psyren]

Accomplished Sneak Attacker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accomplished-sneak-attacker/) can get you one die, but I don't think you can take it twice.

This was going to be my suggestion - this + Slayer 6 gets you 3d6 SA and 6 BAB, alongside 6+Int skills, studied target, 3 talents and Track.

[animewatcha]

Since we are throwing cheese into this. Can get BAB 1 and sneak attack 2d6 from Warrior 1 from unearthed arcana if you give up the bonus feat for sneak attack.

[TheQ]

Since we are throwing cheese into this. Can get BAB 1 and sneak attack 2d6 from Warrior 1 from unearthed arcana if you give up the bonus feat for sneak attack.

I know it is technically not prohibited, but generic classes should not - according to the wording in UA - be used in conjunction with base classes.

[Demidos]

There's some bracers called something like "Bracers of the Hunter" that give +1d6 sneak attack. I think its Underdark or Secrets of Xendriss (sp?) or something along those lines.

[bean illus]

Where are you getting +4d6?


Presumably because Daring Outlaw doesn't stack your levels in a sneak attack class, but specifically your levels in rogue, meaning he has the sneak attack progression of Rogue 3 from Swashbuckler 3, and adds that to Sneak Attack Fighter 3.


Accomplished Sneak Attacker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accomplished-sneak-attacker/) can get you one die, but I don't think you can take it twice.


There's some bracers called something like "Bracers of the Hunter" that give +1d6 sneak attack. I think its Underdark or Secrets of Xendriss (sp?) or something along those lines.

So, we're at 6d6 @ level 6?

[DeTess]

So, we're at 6d6 @ level 6?

No, accomplished sneak attacker is similar to feats like practiced spellcaster in that it can't boost you beyond what you could get from a single-classed rogue at any given level. So it'll give +1d6 only if you have less than 3d6 sneak attack at level 6.

[ExLibrisMortis]

No, accomplished sneak attacker is similar to feats like practiced spellcaster in that it can't boost you beyond what you could get from a single-classed rogue at any given level. So it'll give +1d6 only if you have less than 3d6 sneak attack at level 6.
Hmmm. The wording is very strict. By a literal reading, your SA would actually go down if you took ASA on a fighter 3/swashbuckler 3, because your 4d6 SA would exceed half your character level.

A more generous interpretation lets you increase your fighter SA to 3d6, then add the 2d6 from swashbuckler on top. I think that's a more balanced interpretation, but RAW, it is not.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

So, Swashbuckler 3/ SA (Thug?) Fighter 3 with Daring Outlaw, probably Craven, and the bracers that give +1d6 SA, we've got 5d6+6 SA and full BAB. I don't think we're topping that... at least not with pure Sneak Attack.

You mentioned your build is focused on opportunity attacks? One feat that's definitely worth looking at is Karmic Strike, which makes enemies provoke AoOs every time they hit you; Defensive Throw works similarly but on misses, and only to make trip attacks. Another is Mercurial Strike: every time someone provokes an opportunity attack and you're unarmed, you get to draw a weapon to take the AoO, and they're flat-footed for it. It's got some disadvantages over Sneak Attack of Opportunity (have to have a fighting style that works with drawing weapons, and have to find a way to threaten while unarmed (Improved Unarmed Strike works, and Karmic Strike dodges the problem))... but it does work with the Iaijutsu Focus skill, which will give you some more bonus damage dice.

Iaijutsu Focus:
This is a skill from Oriental Adventures that lets you do extra damage whenever you a) draw a melee weapon and b) attack a flat-footed opponent. What's nice about it is that since it's a skill, the cost to just throwing some ranks into it is pretty low compared to spending a feat. In E6, you probably don't need it as a class skill to use it, but Aereni Focus (if you're an elf) or Skill Knowledge (if you're not) are two ways to make that happen. And you can always wait until you have all the other feats you want, then pick up Skill Knowledge (iaijutsu focus) and Open Minded (for 5 skill points) as epic feats (post level 6, I mean) to fill in all 5 of those missing ranks.

[Godskook]

Exactly. It's essentially an SA Fighter 3/ Rogue 3 but with full BAB.

This reads somewhere between RAW-cheese and not-RAW. I.e., I doubt most DMs would let it fly.

[el minster]

It most definitely is raw. you qualifyh for the feat and you have an effective rogue level of 3 to determine SA. It's like SA variant fighter3/rogue 3 but with one better BAB and worse skills

[Vizzerdrix]

I know it is technically not prohibited, but generic classes should not - according to the wording in UA - be used in conjunction with base classes.

Should not =/= can't. Don't be afraid me hearties! Yaaaaar! :wink:

[bean illus]

This reads somewhere between RAW-cheese and not-RAW. I.e., I doubt most DMs would let it fly.

Oh, i understand, ... martials can't have nice things?

[Sinner's Garden]

This reads somewhere between RAW-cheese and not-RAW. I.e., I doubt most DMs would let it fly.

It's just dipping different classes to advance sneak attack progression more efficiently. I don't see how that's cheesy or questionable at all.

[TheQ]

Should not =/= can't. Don't be afraid me hearties! Yaaaaar! :wink:

I know and as a DM I allow it if somebody wants to dip in an extra feat or get some more class skills or what not for a level or two. But it CAN get abusive. You could for instance take 8 levels of Rogue for +4d6 Sneak Attack and add two levels of Expert or Warrior upon that to get +9d6 Sneak Attack at level 10 without losing much Rogue in terms of multiclassing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I know and as a DM I allow it if somebody wants to dip in an extra feat or get some more class skills or what not for a level or two. But it CAN get abusive. You could for instance take 8 levels of Rogue for +4d6 Sneak Attack and add two levels of Expert or Warrior upon that to get +9d6 Sneak Attack at level 10 without losing much Rogue in terms of multiclassing.
Sneak attack in the range of 1d6/level is pretty balanced, though. It's comparable to Leap Attack PA returns, more expensive, and harder to trigger (not crazy hard, but still).

An SA-focused rogue isn't going to stay at 1d6/2 levels, with or without generic classes. You'll get boosters, like Assassin's Stance, a dip in Assassin and Unseen Seer for hunter's eye, even dips in spellthief and SA fighter, and so on.

A basic build like rogue 5/assassin 1/unseen seer 4 has 6d6 SA at level 10, plus the ability to cast hunter's eye for +2d6 SA. Next level, they get an extra 2d6 with a swordsage dip.

A more elaborate build along the lines of illumian (uurkrau) rogue 3/spellthief 1/SA hit-and-run exoticist fighter 1/assassin 1/unseen seer 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has 7d6 SA at level 10, plus the ability to cast hunter's eye for +3d6 SA. Next level, they get an extra 3d6 with a swordsage dip and CL increase.

For both of these builds, SA keeps scaling at slightly below 1d6/level. Unseen Seer +6 and an orange ioun stone gives you +5d6 SA, for example; other bonuses are available (Arcane Thesis (hunter's eye) is nice with Extend Spell).

If you're going down the road of hunter's eye optimization, you'll eventually end up looking at Persistent Spell. A single second-level spell isn't too hard to Persist, but you probably don't want to do it with just assassin casting (and if you spend two feats on metamagic, you want to do more with them, like adding sniper's shot). That brings you to builds along the lines of illumian (uurkrau) trickster spellthief 1/diviner 4/assassin 1/ultimate magus 4/unseen seer 2/ultimate magus +2 with Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin and spellthief) and Theurgic Specialist. It's a build with only 3d6 SA at level 14, but it does have CL 16 + 13 + 10 = 39 on Divination spells before magic items, hunter's eye on its spell list, the ability to burn a 6th-level slot to Persist any assassin or spellthief spell they know (which isn't much). With a bead of karma (a must for any Persistomancer), you've got yourself +17d6 SA from one spell (since the bonus applies to each of your three caster levels), well beyond your HD. And it's not even crazy broken--you can't Persist any of your wizard spells, and you don't have enough 6ths to do more than 2-3 spells :smalltongue:.

Edit: Sorry about the many edits, turns out juggling three CLs in my head is too much.

[TheQ]

I'm not saying that players should stick to 2 Sneak Attacks per level and I am aware of many ways to increase damage output of all kinds. I'm just saying that it comes to the point where it seems to be a bit too much and that I as a DM would not allow it - not that I object to it in principle. Running an Epic 6 campaign is a good way of evading that problem, which is one of the reasons I like it so much.

[nedz]

Build 1
Mystic Ranger 4 BAB 4 CL2
Hunter's Eye and Practiced spellcaster = 2d6 Sneak
Rogue 1 - with Halfling Rogue ACF 2d6 sneak (missile)
Sneak Fighter 1
Craven
5d6+6 sneak with missiles.

Build 2
Rogue 1 - with Halfling Rogue ACF 2d6 sneak (missile)
Sneak Fighter 1
Warblade 4
Martial Study <Any SH> Martial Stance<Assassins Stance>
Shadow Trickster
Craven
5d6+8 sneak with missiles.

[Godskook]

Oh, i understand, ... martials can't have nice things?

Martials have nice things in E6. Plenty of them.

Besides, I didn't say "you can't have that", I said "this reads as such". Those are **DRAMATICALLY** different statements, and you can't extrapolate the former from the latter. A sarcastic "martials can't have nice things" is not an argument for a thing being RAW, no matter how offended you are by the idea that something might not be RAW.

I.e., you didn't understand. At all.


It's just dipping different classes to advance sneak attack progression more efficiently. I don't see how that's cheesy or questionable at all.

It most definitely is raw. you qualifyh for the feat and you have an effective rogue level of 3 to determine SA. It's like SA variant fighter3/rogue 3 but with one better BAB and worse skills

SA Fighter gains SA "as rogue". Arguably, this means that the class should be treated as a Rogue for purposes related to SA, such as Daring Outlaw. I.e., for SA purposes, you have an effective rogue level of -6-. 3 from SA Fighter and 3 from Daring Outlaw+Swashbuckler.

[bean illus]

Besides, I didn't say "you can't have that", I said "this reads as such". Those are **DRAMATICALLY** different statements, and you can't extrapolate the former from the latter. A sarcastic "martials can't have nice things" is not an argument for a thing being RAW, no matter how offended you are by the idea that something might not be RAW.

I.e., you didn't understand. At all.

Nah, i was just jokin'.
Thanks for being you.

[Doctor Awkward]

It's not quite the same but a Scout 4/Ranger 2 with Swift Hunter can pick up Improved Skirmish at level 6 and have +4d6 skirmish damage and +5 BAB.