Echo Knight Optimisation

[OctaviOz]

Hi! Im currently playing a level 5 echo knight in a nautical themed game. Currently have maxed str, PAM & Sentinel (Variant Human with extra feat at level 1).

Looking for ideas on crazy optimising combos for the next few levels.

I'm currently thinking of taking next 2 levels as Barb. Rage and reckless attack synergize nicely. Then level 6 fighter and pick up gwm.

Keen to consider other options and cool combinations. Thanks!

[Spiritchaser]

Hi! Im currently playing a level 5 echo knight in a nautical themed game. Currently have maxed str, PAM & Sentinel (Variant Human with extra feat at level 1).

Looking for ideas on crazy optimising combos for the next few levels.

I'm currently thinking of taking next 2 levels as Barb. Rage and reckless attack synergize nicely. Then level 6 fighter and pick up gwm.

Keen to consider other options and cool combinations. Thanks!

I think you’re on the right track with barb, although I would suggest a third level to take ancestral guardian for ancestral protectors. Remember the To-Hit portion of the ancestral protectors debuff will also apply to attacks against your echo.

I’m not a huge fan of early PAM on an echo knight, since your bonus action is usually spoken for, but I do love sentinel, and I know PAM and sentinel work well together.

[OctaviOz]

I think you’re on the right track with barb, although I would suggest a third level to take ancestral guardian for ancestral protectors. Remember the To-Hit portion of the ancestral protectors debuff will also apply to attacks against your echo.

I’m not a huge fan of early PAM on an echo knight, since your bonus action is usually spoken for, but I do love sentinel, and I know PAM and sentinel work well together.

PAM is primarily for triggering the OA. In combo with Sentinel, reach weapon and good echo positioning, it makes for some crazy battlefield control. Also nice for the rounds when you dont need to manifest echo or swap places.

Thanks for the idea on Ancestral Guardian.

[Spiritchaser]

PAM is primarily for triggering the OA. In combo with Sentinel, reach weapon and good echo positioning, it makes for some crazy battlefield control. Also nice for the rounds when you dont need to manifest echo or swap places.

Thanks for the idea on Ancestral Guardian.

I’d agree that PAM is still useful with the control you get with the OA and sentinel.

My concerns are that the echo almost never survives, so you need your bonus action to replace it. This is better if something made your echo harder to hit, but even so, it goes down a lot.

Additionally: manifest echo clearly allows you to use attacks made as part of an attack action from your echo’s position, not those from the PAM bonus action attack. Similarly the PAM opportunity attack when a foe enters your reach is made from your position, not your echo’s. You’ll generally want to be as unreachable as possible.

Obviously these effects are still useful, and you’ll get mileage out of both of them, but if I wildly guessed that you might get half Or less as many chances To use them as a typical PAM fighter, I think I’d be on solid ground.

To my mind that makes it useful but something you pick up later

Counterpoint:

One of the big advantages you get from echo knight is simply not being at the front line to be hit. If your echo is close to your target and has sentinel, they generally cannot get to you without swatting your echo first, since the attack from your echo will stop them cold.

But you don’t have to play that way. You could play more like a standard PAM fighter, and be on the front lines more, using your PAM OA more. This eliminates the OA threat from your echo more often, meaning that the echo may be allowed to survive more. That frees up your bonus action for that extra attack. Your trading safety for damage, and that’s fine. You get to choose when to do it.

This said, if you are going to play more like this, Ancestral guardian is less of a good fit.

Ancestral Guardian is fantastic if you MC or take feats such that your foe can’t (or doesn’t want to) hit you.

Because ancestral protectors will make sure they don’t want to hit anybody else.

Your OA withPAM and sentinel will protect you a fair bit, but not as well as being 30’back and up a cliff

This isn’t a black and white either or, you’re going to mix in some of both and you may eventually want PAM anyway... I just think it’s less of a priority

[OctaviOz]

Hmmm, RAW I think you are correct on the PAM bonus action attack from an echo's location. I've never noticed this before and I think it would be a pretty rough DM to not allow it (I would in my games) but RAW you are correct.

I'm not so sure the RAW on PAM opportunity atttacks from the echo's location is quite to obvious.

Echo reaction:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.

PAM reaction:
While wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.

I can see the argument that could be made around "moves at least 5ft away". But this also clearly indicates that opp attacks can be made from the echo's location "as if you were in the echo's space". I think it would be a pretty tough DM that wouldn't allow the PAM reaction through the echo's space though I can see why some DMs that are strictly RAW may rule this way, even if there is a good argument for another interpretation.

All that being said I already have PAM so I can't change it now. I can see Barb for at least 2 levels and possibly 3 having a lot of synergies. I'm keen to hear other ideas as well. If you were going to build out to level 12 what would you take?