DM help Order of the Blackened Denarius

[Tom Riddle]

hi all i had a question. I just finished reading the Dresden files. Gave me an idea to run a campaign around the Order of the Blackened Denarius coins. Do you guys think that possible or not. I'm just looking for a baseline to start of with the coins and drop them into a sand box that the players will come across and hopefully interact. Anything will help. Maybe using demons as the baseline or devils.

[ElderDarren]

Another Dresden fan! So I think the first question is just how strong do you want these coins to be?

If I were to draw them up I'd probably start with it being an Intelligent Wondrous Item that gave a special bardic knowledge roll to represent the angels knowledge, I'd say a Caster Level boost to represent the Hellfire. And some pre-built Polymorph for the hybrid form. If you build one please post it, I've been toying around with this idea for ages... just never crystallized on an idea I liked.

[Batcathat]

If I were to draw them up I'd probably start with it being an Intelligent Wondrous Item that gave a special bardic knowledge roll to represent the angels knowledge, I'd say a Caster Level boost to represent the Hellfire. And some pre-built Polymorph for the hybrid form. If you build one please post it, I've been toying around with this idea for ages... just never crystallized on an idea I liked.

This might be a good base, but each coin/Fallen would probably require some customization for their individual abilities, like Anduriel's shadow spying.

There's also the question of how the Fallen's influence on the people who pick up the coins should work. It could be a purely role playing aspect or have some mechanical part, what works best probably depends on the players.

[ChudoJogurt]

There is a class in one of the Dragon Magazines called "Tainted" which has the character being semi-posessed by a demon/devil, gaining some of their abilities, but also being influenced by the demon.

Its incredibly weak, so you would have to seriously soup it up to get to Denarian levels, but I imagine that having an item let you Geatalt your class with /Tainted with maybe ability to get some choice Invocations like Warlock (stuff like Otherworldly Whispers/Beguiling Tongue especially) would go fairly far towards what you want.

[Tom Riddle]

Well my players are lvl 9 so I want them to feel overwhelmed the first time they realize what was happening. There is an CE bard that i think would like tho give a shadow of Lasciel like Harry had. Maybe for bonus for knowledge. But maybe will saves to get ppl to finally give in to the power. This is going to be the first actual campaign arch to finish the sand box that i have been going for almost two years. So I do want them to powerful

[Sinner's Garden]

Just so you're aware, there is an actual Dresden Files RPG that's definitely worth looking at if you want to play a Dresden Files campaign.

[Batcathat]

Just so you're aware, there is an actual Dresden Files RPG that's definitely worth looking at if you want to play a Dresden Files campaign.

That's a good point. And it's worth looking through even if you aren't gonna play it, at least for a Dresden fan. There's some pretty interesting and funny stuff in there.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Rather than (or perhaps in addition to) treating the Denarians as magical items, I'd treat them as fiends and use the possession rules. This lets the fiend provide one of several bonuses (and switch it from round to round), and has built in mechanics for struggling for control. It also works better for the shadows left in the minds of people like Harry. Once they actually accept the coin, then I'd add the magic item and all its benefits. The Fiend of Possession and Fiend of Corruption prestige classes are also probably worth looking at, but I don't actually know much about them.

[Quertus]

Fwiw, I'd treat it like lycanthropy.

That is, there's a certain amount of similarity, a set of base rules, but each coin grants different abilities, just like each animal does.

Also, IIRC, there's already an item that grants lycanthropy :smallwink:

[Tom Riddle]

Thank you for a the answers guys I will look into the rpg. The fiend of possession sounds pretty good. Maybe ill reskin the lycanthrope. As far as Nicodemus shadow listen I guess thats kind of unfair to my players to have someone all the sudden be able to hear just about anything that the plan out.

[Batcathat]

As far as Nicodemus shadow listen I guess thats kind of unfair to my players to have someone all the sudden be able to hear just about anything that the plan out.

Maybe. But it could also present an interesting challange to the right kind of player. Doing something similar to what Dresden does in Skin Game might be kinda cool. Though I'm sure some players would just find it unfair and annoying so you'll have to decide what's best for your group.

[Tom Riddle]

Nicodemus will be one of the masked lords in my city which puts him on the leadership council. My city that they are in is kind of a mix Waterdeep and luskan. Lartessa is a head of one of the Merchant guild in the city. There are FR characters running around in the city such as jarlaxle and his band and a couple of others.

[Edivdrone]

As far as base mechanics go, I'd have to say the Binder/Vestige system from Tome of Magic would be the best starting point. Have different power levels/checks for if the player is 'only' dealing with the shadow, or if they are foolish enough to duke it out with a Fallen.

For the full abilities of the Fallen, it might make the most sense to use the rules for demi-gods or lesser deities and their abilities, with the coin being their point of interface with the world. Add in a mechanism for corruption, and never, ever, forget that they can control the perceptions of those whom they are in contact with, and you are there.

[rel]

I don't think 3.5 is a good fit for dresden files.
That being said, if you want to use D&D to run a game where everyone plays denarians I suggest treating the system as a toolbox to get what you want.

Begin by NOT stating out the coins, the demons or anything else.

Tell everyone to create a character using whatever resources they feel like to match the expected powers of a denarian; potent magic, good combat skills, maybe an alternate form.
Then refluff things to match.

character A might be an elf druid.
character B might be a half orc barbarian.

Fluff wise they are both humans that took up a coin and got some cool powers as a result.

[Kitsuneymg]

If you want your magic system to actually more closely match the Dresden universe, take a look at the Spheres of Power system. It’s pathfinder, but since it a complete replacement for the magic system, it’s easy enough to back port.

As for the Fallen, there is a Wraith class in SoP that can possess people. The unbodied archetype for it must posses people or its refuge object or take non lethal damage that CSSnt be healed except when possessing. It may be a good place to start. It’s a bit janky as a lot of interactions aren’t thought about, but it gives you a 1-20 class progression to let a spirit possess a normal person and grant them powers. Plus, since it *is* 1-20, you can have whatever CR you need them to be for when your players fight em.

For additional power, consider having the possessed get the advanced template or something. That should give you a decent baseline.

Wraiths don’t get enough powers IMO to make truly scary opponents, so tossing in both SoP and SoM progressions might be needed. It’s at least a good place to start

[Red Fel]

hi all i had a question. I just finished reading the Dresden files. Gave me an idea to run a campaign around the Order of the Blackened Denarius coins. Do you guys think that possible or not. I'm just looking for a baseline to start of with the coins and drop them into a sand box that the players will come across and hopefully interact. Anything will help. Maybe using demons as the baseline or devils.

First of all, I agree with those who say not to stat the demons themselves. The point is that these are formless beings whose menace is their ability to take hosts and coordinate; being able to kill them turns them into bog-standard monsters, just with a fun new mechanic.

I will also say that the Order does not work well in any setting where Protection from Evil exists, because that explicitly suppresses possession-type effects. On the other hand, having PCs realize that they feel different while under Protection from Evil can definitely contribute to the horror of the situation.

It's also worth noting that you need the players onboard with this. The Order of the Blackened Denarius is scary because these imprisoned beings slowly take over their hosts' minds, replacing them over time. Translation: Your PC will become an NPC. If players aren't onboard with the notion that if they touch the creepy penny they might not have a PC anymore, putting the coins in the setting is the equivalent of sending unprepared PCs into the Tomb of Horrors - it's just cruel.

Now, assuming everyone is onboard with the idea, there are two ways to go about it - mechanics and fluff. Both use mechanics, technically, but the former is much crunchier than the latter.

Others have already pointed out ways to execute the former - an Intelligent Item can engage in ego battles with its holder, and can convey powers when the two are in accord, while a Fiend of Possession could possess a coin, then jump to a host and grant them bonuses before ultimately taking them over.

What I would do, instead, is create a character sheet for each Denarian. I know I just said not to stat them, but it's not what you think. I would set aside those who you intend to be NPCs, and leave only those still in their coins. Should a PC encounter a coin, I would roll randomly to select which Denarian they find, unless there is a plot-specific reason you want a PC to find a specific Denarian.

On first contact, roll a secret Will save. If the PC makes the save, they are not under the coin's influence until and unless they use its power. If they fail, they get the vague feeling that this is a powerful object, which they should keep close. If they attempt to analyze it, it comes across as a magic item with unreadable power. Thereafter, each time they use its power, make another secret Will save. Each time they fail the Will save, increase the DC for the next time, but increase the ease with which they can access the item's powers.

Here's where that character sheet comes in. This sheet is what they turn into when accessing the coin's full power. But they can't do it yet. They have to work their way up. Basically, have a checklist of increasing powers. At first, they should only be able to access one - the base power. Say, an SLA, or a stat boost, or something simple like that. After failing a certain number of Will saves - and making subsequent Will saves harder - they find they can access more powers. The SLA or stat boost gets stronger, they gain a new feature altogether - like weapon proficiency or Wild Shape or somesuch. On the other hand, they start seeing penalties. They start dinging as Evil. They start having nightmares, leaving them fatigued (and, if they are arcane casters, unable to regain spells) the next day. Maybe they feel hungry, or food tastes like ash, or their vision blurs. Using the coin brings relief from any negative effects (aside from dinging as Evil).

If they go a full 24 hours without using the coin's power, have them make a Will save, at whatever increased DC they currently have, but this time it's not secret. On a success, they feel a desire to use the coin again, but resist. On a failure, they grab the coin and use one of its powers right then, immediately feeling relief. This roll is made publicly, because by this point the player should become aware that their PC is getting addicted.

At a certain point, the full sheet may be unlocked. Upon using the coin, the PC is transformed into the one on the character sheet - losing all of the PC's powers and stats, but gaining those on the sheet - for a period measured in rounds. The number of rounds the PC can do this increases the more they do it, but afterwards they are fatigued, nauseated, dazed, all the negative statuses. Eventually, the PC should be making Will saves each round while transformed; on a failed save, the PC temporarily loses control of the character, becoming possessed by the Denarian until the transformation ends.

This should be a plot-starter, not a plot-stopper. The PC should first be intrigued, then unnerved, by the new reserve of power available to them. They should then be motivated by this loss of agency to look for a cure, to seek help. There should be plenty of opportunity for self-reflection, that fun "what am I becoming" realization. There should also be ample opportunity to seek freedom and atonement. The goal should be for the PC to want to be rid of the coin, not to turn the PC into an NPC. That's the point.

But until the PC reaches that point, it's a choice. It's always a choice. The PC should want to give into the coin's influence, to access more of its power. At first. Then, as matters progress, they should want to be rid of it.

At least, that's how I would run it.

[tiercel]

Basically, have a checklist of increasing powers. At first, they should only be able to access one - the base power. Say, an SLA, or a stat boost, or something simple like that. After failing a certain number of Will saves - and making subsequent Will saves harder - they find they can access more powers. The SLA or stat boost gets stronger, they gain a new feature altogether - like weapon proficiency or Wild Shape or somesuch. On the other hand, they start seeing penalties....

Red Fel is of course wise — and when I read this description what jumps out at me is:

Ravenloft.
Dark Powers Checks.

The main difference is that each Fallen is its own prepackaged little suite of goodies and curses, encouraging a particular course of action, rather than being tailored in response to whatever What Evil Thing Did You Do Today, Citizen?

[Tom Riddle]

First of all, I agree with those who say not to stat the demons themselves. The point is that these are formless beings whose menace is their ability to take hosts and coordinate; being able to kill them turns them into bog-standard monsters, just with a fun new mechanic.

I will also say that the Order does not work well in any setting where Protection from Evil exists, because that explicitly suppresses possession-type effects. On the other hand, having PCs realize that they feel different while under Protection from Evil can definitely contribute to the horror of the situation.

It's also worth noting that you need the players onboard with this. The Order of the Blackened Denarius is scary because these imprisoned beings slowly take over their hosts' minds, replacing them over time. Translation: Your PC will become an NPC. If players aren't onboard with the notion that if they touch the creepy penny they might not have a PC anymore, putting the coins in the setting is the equivalent of sending unprepared PCs into the Tomb of Horrors - it's just cruel.

Now, assuming everyone is onboard with the idea, there are two ways to go about it - mechanics and fluff. Both use mechanics, technically, but the former is much crunchier than the latter.

Others have already pointed out ways to execute the former - an Intelligent Item can engage in ego battles with its holder, and can convey powers when the two are in accord, while a Fiend of Possession could possess a coin, then jump to a host and grant them bonuses before ultimately taking them over.

What I would do, instead, is create a character sheet for each Denarian. I know I just said not to stat them, but it's not what you think. I would set aside those who you intend to be NPCs, and leave only those still in their coins. Should a PC encounter a coin, I would roll randomly to select which Denarian they find, unless there is a plot-specific reason you want a PC to find a specific Denarian.

On first contact, roll a secret Will save. If the PC makes the save, they are not under the coin's influence until and unless they use its power. If they fail, they get the vague feeling that this is a powerful object, which they should keep close. If they attempt to analyze it, it comes across as a magic item with unreadable power. Thereafter, each time they use its power, make another secret Will save. Each time they fail the Will save, increase the DC for the next time, but increase the ease with which they can access the item's powers.

Here's where that character sheet comes in. This sheet is what they turn into when accessing the coin's full power. But they can't do it yet. They have to work their way up. Basically, have a checklist of increasing powers. At first, they should only be able to access one - the base power. Say, an SLA, or a stat boost, or something simple like that. After failing a certain number of Will saves - and making subsequent Will saves harder - they find they can access more powers. The SLA or stat boost gets stronger, they gain a new feature altogether - like weapon proficiency or Wild Shape or somesuch. On the other hand, they start seeing penalties. They start dinging as Evil. They start having nightmares, leaving them fatigued (and, if they are arcane casters, unable to regain spells) the next day. Maybe they feel hungry, or food tastes like ash, or their vision blurs. Using the coin brings relief from any negative effects (aside from dinging as Evil).

If they go a full 24 hours without using the coin's power, have them make a Will save, at whatever increased DC they currently have, but this time it's not secret. On a success, they feel a desire to use the coin again, but resist. On a failure, they grab the coin and use one of its powers right then, immediately feeling relief. This roll is made publicly, because by this point the player should become aware that their PC is getting addicted.

At a certain point, the full sheet may be unlocked. Upon using the coin, the PC is transformed into the one on the character sheet - losing all of the PC's powers and stats, but gaining those on the sheet - for a period measured in rounds. The number of rounds the PC can do this increases the more they do it, but afterwards they are fatigued, nauseated, dazed, all the negative statuses. Eventually, the PC should be making Will saves each round while transformed; on a failed save, the PC temporarily loses control of the character, becoming possessed by the Denarian until the transformation ends.

This should be a plot-starter, not a plot-stopper. The PC should first be intrigued, then unnerved, by the new reserve of power available to them. They should then be motivated by this loss of agency to look for a cure, to seek help. There should be plenty of opportunity for self-reflection, that fun "what am I becoming" realization. There should also be ample opportunity to seek freedom and atonement. The goal should be for the PC to want to be rid of the coin, not to turn the PC into an NPC. That's the point.

But until the PC reaches that point, it's a choice. It's always a choice. The PC should want to give into the coin's influence, to access more of its power. At first. Then, as matters progress, they should want to be rid of it.

At least, that's how I would run it.

Thank you so much. That sounds like a perfect way to do it. I'll make sure to explain what is going on to the guys. I think that ill introduce a paladin that will explain whats going on in the game. But it is a sand box so they do have to follow the hook that i throw out so we will see.

[Edivdrone]

I will also say that the Order does not work well in any setting where Protection from Evil exists, because that explicitly suppresses possession-type effects. On the other hand, having PCs realize that they feel different while under Protection from Evil can definitely contribute to the horror of the situation.

Yes, to a degree. Remember, however, that part of the package is the willful acceptance of the coin. For one who picks up a coin in ignorance, yes, they'd receive protection as normal, but, if they choose to pick up the coin knowing what it is and what taking it entails, their exercise of free will bypasses those safe guards due to the nature of the coins and the essence of freedom. Think of Dresden intentionally using Hellfire (which actually already has D&D 3.5 rules in Fiendish Codex II on pg 119, and the Hellfire Warlock PrC on page 90, plus the Disciple of Mephistopheles PrC on pg 62). His deliberate use voided his previous protections against Lash, and allowed her to contact and influence him. As discussed both in the Dresden Files and in Fiendish Codex II, Free Will plays an important role in how thing turn out.


It's also worth noting that you need the players onboard with this. The Order of the Blackened Denarius is scary because these imprisoned beings slowly take over their hosts' minds, replacing them over time.

Not necessarily. Whether the Fallen within a given coin attempts a takeover or manipulates the bearer into acts of evil depends entirely on their motives and desires. Cassius, Dierde, Nick, and his wife, all retained their own will. Nick clearly thinks he is in charge, but just as clearly is a masterfully controlled dupe.


Others have already pointed out ways to execute the former - an Intelligent Item can engage in ego battles with its holder, and can convey powers when the two are in accord, while a Fiend of Possession could possess a coin, then jump to a host and grant them bonuses before ultimately taking them over.

The Ego system isn't a bad place to start, and is likely simpler to run, though it only truly works for shadows, not the Fallen. However, where it falls short is in the interplay of free will that is so integral to how the coins function. Also, the might of the Fallen is such that no PC would have a chance of standing up to it.

For these reasons I suggested the Binder/Vestige system found in the Tome of Magic in dealing with the shadows as a base. There is already a built in mechanic for a base power, making a bad pact, and unlocking powers as skill, or perhaps in this case, corruption, increase. Also the notion of pact making. Lash constantly tempted Harry with tidbits. Generally, she only really offered when she was going to lose her pawn par excellence to protect her investment.


What I would do, instead, is create a character sheet for each Denarian. I know I just said not to stat them, but it's not what you think. I would set aside those who you intend to be NPCs, and leave only those still in their coins. Should a PC encounter a coin, I would roll randomly to select which Denarian they find, unless there is a plot-specific reason you want a PC to find a specific Denarian.

Again, in complete agreement on do not stat them, however, I would instead recommend drawing up skills, special qualities, and, because they are the equivalent of Dukes of Hell, grant them appropriate portfolios and Divine Salient abilities from Deities and Demigods. Obviously they can't exert their full power on the material plane without breaking a number of agreements between the upper and lower planes, but the end result would be a bearer that becomes or obtains the power of an avatar (as appropriate to the Denarian in question).

There's a more expanded version of my thought processes on base mechanics. Getting rid of a coin, as Harry found, is much easier said than done. Once contact has been made, the Fallen imprints a shadow that constantly works to convince the PC to take up the coin to gain Power (or whatever bait works best for the character). The corruption mechanics in Fiendish Codex II or the Tainted mechanics in Heroes of Horror could be used to represent the shadow slowly eroding the will of the PC from the subconscious (using primarily mental effects if the Tainted rules are picked).

Anyhoo, hope this provokes useful thought, and happy gaming.