9ths spells and manuevers

[lylsyly]

new campaign starting, requirements are a new twist for me, I've never done a TOB character. Everyone is required to build a 9th level casting and 9th level manuevers.I know it can be done but I would like to see some simple mid level optimization builds.druid, cleric, and any arcane full caster builds you can think of.Thanks in advance ;-). LOVE THE NEW SERVER ISSUESEDIT: ant 1st party 3.5 and unsuperseeded 3.0

[Rebel7284]

Everyone is required to build a 9th level casting and 9th level manuevers.

I have no idea what this means.

It could be:

a. Each character must be able to both cast 9th level spells and initiate 9th level maneuvers at 20th level.

b. Each character is gestalt and is required to take a casting and initiator class at the same time.

c. Everyone is building two characters, one caster and one initator.

If it's a. Then your options are somewhat limited as you will need at least some levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage so all builds will have some overlap.

What level are you stating at?
Do you know what you want your character to do? Wizard and Druid are not game roles, they are just flavor.

[lylsyly]

NO gestalt, which is not our usual thing.9th levels spells and 9th level manuevers.Starting at level one and will go to level 20 because we always do.I know it can be done with arcane and cleric. Don't know about druid, unless they can qualify like clerics.0 LA, which again is not our usual thing.6 man table, revolving DMs, and we have never used TOB before.Don't known yet what other 4 players are going to do.

[Kaleph]

My first comment is that 9th / 9th is a strange limitation - many gish/initiator builds that you find online don't hit this benchmark, and instead get, say, 9th level spells and 7th level maneuvres. Or the like.

One thing to have in mind is that, short of shanenigans (e.g. free bloodline levels) you need 14 levels of stacking initiator classes in order to get 9th level maneuvres at level 20. Levels in non-initiator classes count 0.5 each towards your total, primary initiator level. So 14 initiator levels through stacking martial classes + 0.5x6 initiator levels through other classes = 17, which is the minimun to initiate 9th level maneuvres.

The arcane martial gish is the jade phoenix mage, the divine counterpart is the ruby knight vindicator. Besides 10 levels in one of these prestige classes, you need at least 4 levels in a base martial class. Which leaves you with 6 levels for the spellcasting side. Oh, and the PrC's give you 8/10 spellcasting, so you notice already that it's kinda challenging.

The options are pretty much limited. The most straightforward solution would be to mix crusader and apostle of peace or ur-priest, and finish your build with the ruby knight vindicator. The problem is that the two spellcasting classes cannot be easily combined (especially because of RPG-requirements, like an ur-priest worshipping Wee-Jas), so you need to homebrew an adaptation. I guess that things would get even more complicated if you try to use other "fast progression casters", like blighter or sublime chord.

Another possibility is sha'ir 6/jade phoenix mage 5/ruby knight vindicator 9, and you try to fulfill the entry requirements through feats. The problem is that touchstone::catalogue of enlightenment::necromancy domain isn't a 100% RAW legal way to get turn undeads. But this way would require a lower level of DM adaptation in comparison with the other one.

The last option I can think of, is - as I mentioned before - to get bloodline levels for free. This should increase, without any cost, your initiator level by 3, which would let you get 9th level maneuvres earlier, and would in principle free 3 levels for your spellcasting classes. But that's cheesy, very cheesy. Would it work at your table?

EDIT: alternative cheesy option (more likely to be accepted by a DM): use levels of legacy champion, 8 levels out of 10 they cound as 1.5 initiator levels. Unfortunately I haven't a ready-made build at hand, so you have to figure out the math to make it work on your own.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

First things first, you need to know whether the "all prestige classes fully advance initiator level unless stated otherwise" rule applies to non-ToB prestige classes. If it does (and that's how I've always read/played it), then this just got a lot easier, since you have 6 levels of non-initiating base class to play with and don't necessarily need Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage. Your main problem then is picking up enough maneuvers to qualify for the high-level ones. Or you could just grab the 9th level Stone Dragon strike, which has no prerequisites.

[Anthrowhale]

You could be a Paladin 4/Crusader 5/Divine Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 for IL 17.5 + 9th level spells from one domain.

[Gorthawar]

As Kaleph said you need a fast progression caster to get both lvl 9 spells and maneuvers.
Divine Crusader is probably the most straightforward with a number of possible builds.
Ur-priest works mechanically if you disregard the whole dead God issue.
Sublime chord is doable with something like bard1/crusader5/psi-hunter (dragon281)1/Spellsword1/JPM2/SC2/JPM8 or an early entry method for SC I suppose.
Beholder Mage and Apostle of peace probably work just fine as well.

[lylsyly]

So it's really not possible. I've talked to the DM and she said just do the best you can. That makes things simpler as I can just go with an RKV build from a handbook, Thank you all for your input.

[Rebel7284]

So it's really not possible. I've talked to the DM and she said just do the best you can. That makes things simpler as I can just go with an RKV build from a handbook, Thank you all for your input.

It's not possible except for all the ways that it is. 😂

But yes, relaxing the restriction does make things simpler.


As Kaleph said you need a fast progression caster to get both lvl 9 spells and maneuvers.
Divine Crusader is probably the most straightforward with a number of possible builds.
Ur-priest works mechanically if you disregard the whole dead God issue.
Sublime chord is doable with something like bard1/crusader5/psi-hunter (dragon281)1/Spellsword1/JPM2/SC2/JPM8 or an early entry method for SC I suppose.
Beholder Mage and Apostle of peace probably work just fine as well.

That's a pretty good list. For Ur-Priest I would discuss with the DM whether or not a modified version of Heretic of Faith feat would work. Normally it allows you to be of a different alignment and chose different domains, but extending that to treating the god as a dead god is not unreasonable necessarily.

For Beholder Mage I am amused by "work just fine" bit, the whole must be a beholder part is kinda rough... sure you can Polymorph Any Object yourself, but the rules are unclear whether you're even a playable character at that point.

There are a few other ways of doing it too.
- Phaerimm (hatchling) +2LA is a poorly written race that gives you a level of sorcerer casting for every HD you have and doesn't say anything about not working for class levels. So a Phaerimm hatchling Warblade 18 would also cast as a Sorcerer 18. LA Buyoff optional, but helpful.
- Early entry into Blighter
- Shadow Templar from Athas.org is essentially an arcane Ur-Priest
- Getting 8th level spells but being able to heighten them to 9th

[thethird]

What's keeping an Ur-Priest from worshipping Wee Jas? I mean an Ur-Priest siphons power from the gods even if the gods don't wanna, and it's not granted it's power from a patron deity. But couldn't an Ur-Priest kind of really be into what Wee Jas is preaching and believe that everyone should do more of what Wee Jas is doing and steal some power from the other gods and serve Wee Jas?

Wee Jas might not be too happy about it, but what is she going to do take away the Ur-Priest spellcasting?

[Kaleph]

- Getting 8th level spells but being able to heighten them to 9th

I actually believe that early entry into the shadowcraft mage (3 wizard/3 SCM) with a bunch of discounted level-enhancing metamagic feats (earth spell, sanctum spell + acorn of far travel, heighten spell, metamagic school focus) could work. With fractional BAB one could even hit the benchmark.

[Quertus]

I'm kinda curious - what would a Beholder Mage build look like here?

[Rebel7284]

What's keeping an Ur-Priest from worshipping Wee Jas? I mean an Ur-Priest siphons power from the gods even if the gods don't wanna, and it's not granted it's power from a patron deity. But couldn't an Ur-Priest kind of really be into what Wee Jas is preaching and believe that everyone should do more of what Wee Jas is doing and steal some power from the other gods and serve Wee Jas?



Ur-priests despise gods.


First line of the class. If you can somehow square despising gods with worshiping one, maybe? Humans are capable of rationalizing some pretty big contradictions. But everything about Ur-Priest's flavor is that they actively reject divinity.


Wee Jas might not be too happy about it, but what is she going to do take away the Ur-Priest spellcasting?

:smallconfused: If you can't think of anything that a goddess of magic and death can do to a mere mortal that annoys her, I don't know what to say.


I actually believe that early entry into the shadowcraft mage (3 wizard/3 SCM) with a bunch of discounted level-enhancing metamagic feats (earth spell, sanctum spell + acorn of far travel, heighten spell, metamagic school focus) could work. With fractional BAB one could even hit the benchmark.

I don't recall there was ever a BAB benchmark listed in the OP, unless you mean 16BAB in general?

Regardless, I think it's easier to do with a cleric because Divine Metamagic [Heighten Spell] can get you to 9th level spells faster and shadowcraft mage can progress both arcane and divine casting.

Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 8/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Finish to taste

[thethird]

First line of the class. If you can somehow square despising gods with worshiping one, maybe? Humans are capable of rationalizing some pretty big contradictions. But everything about Ur-Priest's flavor is that they actively reject divinity.

Everything about Ur-Priests rules though doesn't care. Check the class prereqs.


Requirements
Alignment: Any evil

Skills: Bluff 6 ranks , Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks , Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks

Feats: Iron Will , Spell Focus (evil)

Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3.
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

As for the fluff justification, which your quote amounts to. Is how you want to play your character. I gave an example above. You are an Ur-Priest. You don't like gods. They are all high and mighty with their crowdsourced power. You take from them. But Wee Jas fights the good fight. So you despise her methods of using divinity as a crutch, but still can appreciate her goals. Maybe at some point in epic you retrain your levels in Ur-priest into cleric levels and you become the high priest of Wee Jas. I don't care. That's fluff. That's story. Write a good one. Have fun. Use it to make a good story. Don't use it to limit your story.


:smallconfused: If you can't think of anything that a goddess of magic and death can do to a mere mortal that annoys her, I don't know what to say.

It was a joke on Ur-priests not having an ex Ur-priest section, or Ruby Knight Vindicators for that matter. No code in which you need atonement cast on you.

Seriously in this thread Beholder mage is being considered as an option, why not simply play Ur-Priest as mechanically written and use this as an opportunity to write more interesting fluff?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A dip into ardent with the Magic mantle (both from Complete Psionic) with the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat (Savage Species) has his manifester level (ML) equal his HD, and ardents base their (potential) highest level powers known on their ML. So at 17th level, you'd have a ML of 17 and can purchase powers known via the psychic chirurgery power, or by taking a dip into illithid savant to eat (a clone of) an erudite psion (also C.Psi) to devour its power learning mechanic. Even better if it's a convert-spell-to-power (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) erudite so you actually can learn spells.

The biggest issue here is that almost all of your power points will come from your bonuses based on your Wis score. Of course, if you dip into other manifesting classes, you'll gain those bonus pp, too, and they pool together. So, say, a soulbound weapon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) psywar 1/psion 1/ardent 1/unarmed swordsage 4/illithid savant 3/swordsage 10 will gain bonus power points from psychic warrior, ardent, and psion. The three manifesting classes only innately grant low level powers (1st for psywar and psion, and 2nd for ardent), but illithid savant would give you the ability to eat an erudite, which will take care of that problem. And your initiator level is 17 (14 + [1/2 x 6]), so that's covered, as well.

Feel free to use something other than swordsage, since psionic manifesters are perfectly fine manifesting in any armor, although it has a good Wis synergy, and it would give you the most power points for your buck for the above build.

Then again, if you're really going for cheese, taking the psionic conversion of spellthief (all of the class's abilities work with psionic powers instead of arcane spells) instead of psychic warrior and the psionic version of Master Spellthief (stacks manifesting classes' MLs together), you'd have native ML of 60 at level 20, with all the bonus power points therefrom. It grants more Int synergy than Wis, so you could go for warblade instead of swordsage. Otherwise, it's identical to the above, although your DM will have to approve using the loosely-defined psithief/Master Psithief suggestion mentioned in the book (although it won't take much to make it work mechanically).

Crusader, on the other hand, doesn't have any special synergy with either build, so it works well enough for both.

Important side note: use metamorphosis to become an illithid to qualify for illithid savant. That, or some creative body swapping.

[EDIT] Get yourself a cohort of some so-hort who has powers you want and who shares a power list with you. Alternatively, arcane spells you want. Then you can learn from him. If said cohort is an intelligent magic item with a spell list or is a manifester with metamorphosis and psychic reformation, he can be your psionic pspellbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23801600&postcount=393e). Note that psychic reformation is so your cohort can have a different set of powers within 15 minutes so you'll have new powers (and possibly spells) every time he manifests it.

[Endarire]

Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and preferably also Loredrake may work.

[lylsyly]

Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and preferably also Loredrake may work.

Loredrake on a kobold won't work at our table but the rest sounds good. We do LA buyoff so the +1 wouldn't be a problem. I doubt the DM this go around would have a problem with it being Bard instead of Sorcerer casting. I'm I'm looking at a bardblade into JPM aa of now.

[Jervis]

Legacy Champion cheese to advance Jade Phoenix Mage/ Ruby Vindicator maybe?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Legacy Champion cheese to advance Jade Phoenix Mage/ Ruby Vindicator maybe?Best coupled with (you guessed it!) illithid savant to devour a high level legacy champion to boost one of the above classes?