Demon spellcasting?

[False God]

I've been going through various threats for my rather high-OP level 20 3-man party in a war of good/evil campaign and I just noticed that none of the high demons/devils have any spellcasting like the the high angels do. Am I just missing something? Even the Aspects don't have spellcasting (at least listed in their stat-blocks). They've got moderately higher base scores, but everything else between say a Balor/Pit Fiend and a Solar are pretty on par. I find it odd that 20 caster levels would only add a couple more CR. Even their SLAs are a lot more limited.

So, am I missing something here or what?

[Firebug]

If the Balor isn't summoned in, it should be a double fight. Since they have a 100% success 1/day summoning another Balor (or a few other things, including Marilith).

They also have Quickened, At-Will Telekinesis (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm). Which, if nothing else, means that they get an extra 15 attacks at +28 for 2d6 damage from using Violent Thrust and tossing a rack of large longswords at someone. Or splash weapons. Or Necklaces of Fireballs.

They also have At-Will Blasphemy (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm) at CL 20. Meaning, if the party is level 20, its a no-save Dazed for 1 round. Note there are 2 of them so the party doesn't win the action economy. The Save on Blasphemy is only for the banishment.

[Thurbane]

Having a look at this list Complete list of Innate Spellcasting? [3.0/3.5/PF] (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?136021), there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of fiends on there, but there are a few:


Arcanaloth: 12th Sorcerer Casting [MM II]
Artaaglith: 5th level Cleric casting [GW]
Klurichir: 10th level Sorcerer casting [FF]
Lilitu: 9th level Cleric Casting [FC1]

Nothing like the big guns the Celestials get, though...

[Biggus]

If the Balor isn't summoned in, it should be a double fight. Since they have a 100% success 1/day summoning another Balor (or a few other things, including Marilith).


Demons generally don't summon other demons if they can possibly avoid it, in fact they generally only do so when it's clear their life is in danger. Considering how quickly high-level fights tend to be over, they often won't get the chance by the time they've realised they need to.

This is not to say it won't happen pretty often, but by no means every time.

[Kayblis]

Demons have less versatility, but they're really strong on their own. The abilities they do get tend to be at-will, and some of them are real bangers like the above mentioned Blasphemy. Almost nothing in a PC's arsenal naturally resists Blasphemy below epic level(except, y'know, being evil), you have to prepare for it by gaining either immunity to Sonic/Evil/Daze effects or unbeatable SR. Summoning other demons is also accounted for in their CR, so a fight with a natural Balor expects the players to see two Balors at some point. The DM may not start out the fight with the summon already in place, but not using the ability is a waste and skews the expected CR by quite a bit. One Balor may not be a huge roadblock to an equal CR party, but he's a pretty decent challenge and a boss-level encounter would include 2~4 Balors(which becomes 4~8 Balors after summons, at which point it's pretty cretainly a TPK for any no-op to low-op group). The general lack of spellcasting also makes them easier to play effectively, because you don't have to deal with a full caster each time you put one of them in an encounter.

If you want spellcasters to go along with demons, you could have lesser demons with class levels, or hired henchmen like the Yugoloths that sell their services to both sides of the Blood War. IIRC the Arcanoloth was the main spellcaster from that racial group. Still, I suggest not getting trapped into the forum mentality of "spellcasting is all that matters". Almost every monster you use will only exist for an encounter or two. There's no point in having 45 spell slots if you only get 4 turns. Most buffs can be replicated by simply having a better base statblock.

[Zanos]

Fiends often have much, much higher ability scores and natural melee capabilities than celestials. But spellcasting is usually king and many celestials have cleric casting that exceeds their HD.


Demons generally don't summon other demons if they can possibly avoid it, in fact they generally only do so when it's clear their life is in danger. Considering how quickly high-level fights tend to be over, they often won't get the chance by the time they've realised they need to.

This is not to say it won't happen pretty often, but by no means every time.
The Balor is one of the few monsters with a round by round tactics breakdown and actually lists summoning as one of it's common Round 1 options if it determines its opponents a credible threat.

[AlanBruce]

If you have a a party of ECL 20's , chances are they will brush away anything a by the book demon can throw at them. This all comes down to how optimized the group is, but being level 20 alone is an optimization in and of itself.

Don't be afraid to tack a few class levels to any demons you want to challenge the party with. Look at the stats of the individual demon and choose a class that fits best with its stat load out.

Paladins of Slaughter, Bards, Sorcerers... all make great class choices since outsiders in general tend to have above average charisma scores.

[Crake]

What's stopping you from taking an otherwise low level demon and just slapping a bunch of caster levels on top of it? Succubus is my favourite chassis for such things due to their base CR and HD being low enough to give you freedom to customize a lot, but high enough that you can get enough levels in without crossing the line of non-associated to associated class levels, while also just having an absurdly high cha score that you can take advantage of for sorcerer casting.

A succubus Sorcerer 5/blackguard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragon Slayer 1/Eldritch knight 7 for example would be CR6 base +2.5 sorcerer +1 blackguard +2.5 abjurant champion +0.5 spellsword +0.5 dragon slayer, +4 eldritch knight, for a total CR of 17, with 18 levels of sorcerer casting, 10% ASF reduction, immunity to fear, cha to saves, and a BAB of +24, and 27HD, enough to put her on par with any high level fiend or angel, even with a comparatively lower con score.

[ShurikVch]

Shator demodand (Fiend Folio) casts as a 8th-level Sorcerer

If you're OK with unique examples, the Fiend Sage of Rel Astra (https://chornalth-adventures-liga.obsidianportal.com/characters/fiend-sage-of-rel-astra) (unique Molydeus, Dungeon #150) casts as 11th-level Wizard

Also, Orcus casts as 20th-level Sorcerer (with access to Cleric spell list), and Asmodeus - 20th-level Cleric (with Diabolic and Evil domains)

[Zanos]

A succubus Sorcerer 5/blackguard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragon Slayer 1/Eldritch knight 7 for example would be CR6 base +2.5 sorcerer +1 blackguard +2.5 abjurant champion +0.5 spellsword +0.5 dragon slayer, +4 eldritch knight, for a total CR of 17, with 18 levels of sorcerer casting, 10% ASF reduction, immunity to fear, cha to saves, and a BAB of +24, and 27HD, enough to put her on par with any high level fiend or angel, even with a comparatively lower con score.
I think you'd have a hard time arguing that sorcerer casting doesn't add to a succubus's typical combat style, which is heavily reliant on Cha based SLAs. Even if you can swing that argument, nonassociated class levels cap at the creatures original HD, so you're looking at CR 25.

[Crake]

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that sorcerer casting doesn't add to a succubus's typical combat style, which is heavily reliant on Cha based SLAs. Even if you can swing that argument, nonassociated class levels cap at the creatures original HD, so you're looking at CR 25.

So spellcasting classes only count as associated class levels if the creature actually has innate spellcasting that stacks with the class levels being taken:


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

And nonassociated class levels cap at the creature's original HD for each class


If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Hence the reason why no classes are taken beyond 5th level until the very end with eldritch knight, just to cap off the casting.

[Falontani]

So spellcasting classes only count as associated class levels if the creature actually has innate spellcasting that stacks with the class levels being taken:



And nonassociated class levels cap at the creature's original HD for each class



Hence the reason why no classes are taken beyond 5th level until the very end with eldritch knight, just to cap off the casting.

You seem to be correct; however CR is a gauge of how powerful a creature is, and this creature is clearly more powerful than a level 20 character (because creatures with class levels have equipment as well). Just because its "correct" CR is below 20, doesn't mean you should use it as such. This is the precise twisting of the rules that most DMs are supposed to prevent.

If such an encounter works for your party, then awesome, all for you using it. Just a warning to those looking at the creature and actually thinking it is a CR 17 encounter. (that said, why are there creatures with spellcasting above their HD with a CR below their casting? that is outrageous)

[Crake]

You seem to be correct; however CR is a gauge of how powerful a creature is, and this creature is clearly more powerful than a level 20 character (because creatures with class levels have equipment as well). Just because its "correct" CR is below 20, doesn't mean you should use it as such. This is the precise twisting of the rules that most DMs are supposed to prevent.

If such an encounter works for your party, then awesome, all for you using it. Just a warning to those looking at the creature and actually thinking it is a CR 17 encounter. (that said, why are there creatures with spellcasting above their HD with a CR below their casting? that is outrageous)

While I'd agree with you, the exact same argument could be made for all the various angels that have spellcasting themselves. Ghaeles cast as 14th level clerics and are CR13, Trumpet Archons cast as 14th level clerics as well, and are CR14, Planetars cast as 17th level clerics and are CR 16. All of them either cast on par with their CR, or above it, and also come with a multitude of SLAs, far better ability scores than players typically would have. The point though, is that, whether you want to gauge the creature at CR 17, CR20, CR 23, or anywhere in between, simply adding character levels to demons does solve the issue of "There's no demons with casting"

As a side note, I actually statted that demon out for fun, and yes, it's rather absurd. A lowest save bonus of 30, save DCs starting at 25, HP to rival a solar, AC easily in the 40s, and of course 18th level sorcerer casting.

[Grey Guard]

While I'd agree with you, the exact same argument could be made for all the various angels that have spellcasting themselves. Ghaeles cast as 14th level clerics and are CR13, Trumpet Archons cast as 14th level clerics as well, and are CR14, Planetars cast as 17th level clerics and are CR 16. All of them either cast on par with their CR, or above it, and also come with a multitude of SLAs, far better ability scores than players typically would have. The point though, is that, whether you want to gauge the creature at CR 17, CR20, CR 23, or anywhere in between, simply adding character levels to demons does solve the issue of "There's no demons with casting"

As a side note, I actually statted that demon out for fun, and yes, it's rather absurd. A lowest save bonus of 30, save DCs starting at 25, HP to rival a solar, AC easily in the 40s, and of course 18th level sorcerer casting.

Over the years in my games, I point to creatures like this to my players as a means of showing that the GM can use the rules and optimize just like the players do. Sometimes it's necessary, depending on the sort of players and level of optimization your table might have.

But yes, that NPC is hilariously bonkers. She could contend with Malcanthet on ruling the Succubi.