[3.5] "Can Only Be Slain By The Sword Of..."

[Thurbane]

I'm wondering if there is any RAW way to do this?

There's a pretty common trope/theme in a lot of fantasy literature, movies etc. about a Big bad that can only be permanently slain with a specific weapon or item.

Is there any examples of this in 3.5? Any existing examples would be great to look at. I'm willing to look at Dragon or Dungeon content, and even PF if it exists. Heck, even well made home-brew.

I mean, you could home brew it I guess (DR X/McGufffin + regeneration X only overcome by McGuffin), but then you run into the myriad of magical ways that can destroy a being with or without damage. You could give it old school 3.0 Magic Immunity, but even then, there are ways...

Interested in all thoughts on this, especially from a DMs perspective.

Cheers - T

[hamishspence]

Sapient major artifacts may work here. Major artifacts as a general rule, have "can only be destroyed by X means" with the DM being encouraged to devise the means.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#majorArtifacts

Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction.

[ElderDarren]

The Eternal template from Pathfinder fits this bill. Utterly invulnerable except for X which is up to the discerning DM to fabricate

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho in most stories of the like I know, I would say there are barely magic items/weapons. Sometimes it's the sole magic item/weapon in the story. This is low magic fantasy.

Since 3.5 is high magic fantasy, this means that defensive powers can be relative "simple" things, accessible already on lower lvls in 3.5 terms.

Regeneration would be the simplest way to emulate this. If you don't have the right dmg type, all your efforts will go into vain.

High DR on lower lvls (where the PCs dmg ain't that optimized to just ignore the DR) with Fast Healing could also do the job.

Further, most of the time, the stories around such weapons don't have any full caster (or any at all) in their party. So they even lack dispelling. An enemy with defensive buffs might just require a (greater) dispelling weapon to be beatable by mundanes.

Remember that most fantasy stories go barely beyond lvl 5-10 ish imho. Some don't even reach lvl 5.
But the Bard, who has written the story about that weapon, had a lucky natural 20 on his perform roll. That turned the low-bob lvl 1-3 campaign with one WBL breaking magic item due to "PLOT REASONS".. into an "epic" (lvl20+) story in your mind..^^

[Lord Haart]

The simplest AND most flavourful solution that comes to mind is villain actually being a high-level Ghost. "As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research", AND they can possess living bodies, so it's easy both to have the villain as a "living" person before the party tries to kill him, and to have them return without much damage to their social network.

I'm getting glimpses of memories of some other undead templates that have similar abilities (something revenant-ish), but i haven't digged through my books in years, so i can't pinpoint them.

Moving away into the realm of plot conveniences, it doesn't have to be the villain itself that has that property. What if there's something bigger — a god, a devil, a demon lord, a powerful fairy or an epic-level undead spirit — that is, either willingly or after being tricked, obligated to resurrect the villain? That closes a lots of possible holes by replacing a mere contingency by an actual sentient and interested force (which is therefore much harder to circumvent), doesn't require any homebrew (since there are lots of ways a sentient party wielding magic, let alone divine powers, can undo someone's croak) and is also pretty flavourful (aren't deals or favours one of the main ways to gain such immortality in myths and legends? And isn't it well-established that something completely out of the left field, from a sword to a mistletoe, can turn out to be a loophole in such a contract?). And if the party manages to do absolutely everything wrong and plunge The Sword into Orodruin instead of using it, well, they get the back-up option, which requires them to make enemies with a very powerful entity (or to social-fu a very powerful entity into rescinding the contract, which can be even more awesome). A win-win in my book.

Yet another possibility is divination. Why do the heroes know that they need The Sword? Probably because a prophecy says they need it. What if there's nothing special about The Sword itself, only that the prophecy saw things only go right in a specific scenario, and that scenario requires it? The villain won't return to life if killed without the Sword, or regenerate, or no-sell the attack; the party just won't be successful enough to come close enough to try. (That can be hard to pull off without coming off as railroading, of course, but the possibility is there.)

[Maat Mons]

Permanently slaying anyone in D&D is pretty tough.

If they don't die of old age, they can be brought back. Actually, even death by old age can be fixed by Reincarnate, if memory serves. So a loyal minion of the BBEG casts True Resurrection after he finds out his boss got killed.

There are various ways of trapping someone's soul so they can't return. But most of those could be undone by shattering the gem or whatever. So one of the BBEG's elite assassins infiltrates the vault where his soul is imprisoned, releases his soul, and then a loyal minion casts True Resurrection.

I think you pretty much have to destroy the soul using rules from Book of Vile Darkness.

[Kesnit]

Yet another possibility is divination. Why do the heroes know that they need The Sword? Probably because a prophecy says they need it. What if there's nothing special about The Sword itself, only that the prophecy saw things only go right in a specific scenario, and that scenario requires it? The villain won't return to life if killed without the Sword, or regenerate, or no-sell the attack; the party just won't be successful enough to come close enough to try. (That can be hard to pull off without coming off as railroading, of course, but the possibility is there.)

This gave me an idea...

Oodran and Rooki were twins. Oodran was a powerful combatant, always using the sword she was given when she came of age. Rooki was a skilled wizard. Together they fought their way across the realms.

Their loyalty to each other was so strong that Rooki was determined to find a way to ensure he was never separated for long from his sister. With much research, he learned the ritual to become a lich and used Oodran's sword as his phylactery. This worked for a long period of time until Oodran met her final demise. Rooki took his sister's sword and continued to carry it with him.

Until one day, Rooki was defeated by Thom. Thom recognized the sword for what it was. But rather than destroy it, he placed it in a personal demi-plane with Positive Traits. Rooki knows where his phylactery is, but cannot retrieve it because the plane would kill him. (When Rooki dies, Thom retrieves the sword only long enough for Rooki to reform.) Rooki hates Thom for this, but cannot act against Thom because he knows if Thom dies, he will be trapped for eternity in an endless loop of death and regeneration. For this reason, Rooki will use all of his considerable magical and lich abilities to defend Thom.

The prophesy says that only with the Sword of Oodran can Thom be destroyed. The party managed to get the Sword from the demi-plane and prepares to face Rooki and Thom. When the major battle begins, Rooki recognizes his sister's sword (his phylactery) in the hands of one of the party. He knows this means that Thom no longer controls the sword, and hence his rebirth. At the climax of the battle, Rooki turns on Thom and aids the party in destroying him.

[Doctor Despair]

You could do a mini-Emerald Legion style character. Stack on Troll Blooded, Half-Undead (Gheden) or some other form of subdual damage immunity (Bone Knight, etc), a template to grant acid immunity, Mantle of the Fiery Spirit for fire immunity, and feats/gear to cover other immunities. Then, the only thing that should be able to deal damage by RAW is a searing spell fire spell (or some niche things like Sphere of Anihilation, iirc), so the "Sword of X" could just be a unique sword that deals fire damage as of the searing spell feat.

I also like the ghost idea someone else posted above.

You could also have some super-safe super-secret base churning out astral projections of the same character, and make the sword a githyanki silver sword. The way to "kill" them is to sever their silver cord; otherwise they'll just project again if you down them. Food for thought.

[Incorrect]

Permanently slaying anyone in D&D is pretty tough.

Isn't there a weapon material or enchantment that absorbs and stores the soul?
Until wish/miracle comes online, that might keep people dead?

[Telonius]

Isn't there a weapon material or enchantment that absorbs and stores the soul?
Until wish/miracle comes online, that might keep people dead?

I believe that's Thinaun from Complete Warrior.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is, it's absurdly difficult to write up a monster that is genuinely impossible to be neutralized trivially by a mid-high level wizard using the actual rules. Most attempts to make a monster truly invulnerable fail utterly. This thing works best in low magic games other than 3.5.

[InvisibleBison]

The problem is, it's absurdly difficult to write up a monster that is genuinely impossible to be neutralized trivially by a mid-high level wizard using the actual rules. Most attempts to make a monster truly invulnerable fail utterly. This thing works best in low magic games other than 3.5.

That depends on what you mean by "the actual rules". If you include the rule that says the DM is free to make up new content, it's actually quite easy to make an invulnerable creature.

[Vaern]

If you look at Abominations, some of them have extremely specific exceptions to their regeneration. There's one that specifically takes lethal damage by a sentient weapon, one that can be damaged only by a weapon tempered with the blood of a deity, one that requires a weapon forged by a sleepwalking weaponsmith, and even one that requires a weapon from the future or an alternate timeline to defeat. You can write an ultra specific description under a creature's regeneration ability like that for whatever you're planning.
Alternatively, as there are non-artifact weapons with abilities that go beyond enhancement bonuses and common magical properties, you can create an item whose description allows it to deal lethal damage to a specific creature that is otherwise invulnerable, even if that creature's description doesn't mention such an item.

[Doctor Despair]

That depends on what you mean by "the actual rules". If you include the rule that says the DM is free to make up new content, it's actually quite easy to make an invulnerable creature.


Creature of Destiny
Persistent Fate (Ex): This creature cannot be killed by anything other than damage rolls from a specific weapon, specified at the time this template is applied. Damage can be dealt normally, but the creature cannot be disabled, rendered unconscious, rendered dying, or killed as a result of normal damage or as a result of any type of effect (with the exception of damage dealt by the specific weapon); additionally, this creature benefits from a unique form of fast healing that affects any damage -- even damage normally unable to be healed under normal circumstances, such a vile damage. This creature is not subject to death by massive damage. This creature benefits from immunity to any magic, supernatural effects, spell-like abilities, or the effects of Devices that it does not explicitly and willingly consent to receiving. This creature benefits from a constant freedom of movement effect. Additionally, once per day, this creature is subject to an extraordinary teleportation effect that, as long as the creature does not actively and consciously resist the effect, will teleport it to a random, safe location (as perceived by the character); this effect cannot be prevented by any means.

Or, to put it more succinctly:


Creature of Destiny
Persistent Fate (Ex): This creature is immune to any effect (magical, supernatural, mundane, natural, artificial, or otherwise) that would cause it any sort of harm except for damage rolls from a specific weapon. Additionally, the creature may use an extraordinary, unpreventable version of Greater Teleport as a swift action at will unless it has been damaged by that specific weapon in the last 24 hours.

[unseenmage]

Sapient major artifacts may work here. Major artifacts as a general rule, have "can only be destroyed by X means" with the DM being encouraged to devise the means.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#majorArtifacts

Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction.
Was literally my first thought as well.

An Intelligent Magic Item artifact is a Construct so cast Greater Humanoid Essence and Fusion with it. Psionic sandwhich or True Mind Switch also works.

If you can find one or add additional effects to artifacts via MIC item combination rules an artifact Figurine of Wondrous Power turns into an actual creature for x amount of time per day or week. This also allows us to do shenanigans to it via magic that otherwise wouldnt affect an item.

[Thurbane]

Maybe something like the Epic Destiny (eternal hero) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) feat benefits, but overcome by being slain by the specific weapon?


Continual Resurrection: At 21st level, you gain the ability to return from the dead. At dawn each day, if you are dead, you are restored to life (as true resurrection). You can set a place where you want to be resurrected. (You must be standing in that place when you make the choice.) When you are resurrected, you can choose to be resurrected in the place you choose or in the place you died. You can choose a new location for your place of resurrection once per level.

If you couple that with DR X/specific weapon, regeneration X only overcome by specific weapon, and throw in 3.0 magic immunity for good measure, is that workable?


Magic Immunity (Ex)
An adamantine golem is immune to all magical and supernatural effects.





If you look at Abominations, some of them have extremely specific exceptions to their regeneration. There's one that specifically takes lethal damage by a sentient weapon, one that can be damaged only by a weapon tempered with the blood of a deity, one that requires a weapon forged by a sleepwalking weaponsmith, and even one that requires a weapon from the future or an alternate timeline to defeat. You can write an ultra specific description under a creature's regeneration ability like that for whatever you're planning.
Alternatively, as there are non-artifact weapons with abilities that go beyond enhancement bonuses and common magical properties, you can create an item whose description allows it to deal lethal damage to a specific creature that is otherwise invulnerable, even if that creature's description doesn't mention such an item.

Well found, I'll read up on those! :smallsmile:

[Doctor Despair]

Maybe something like the Epic Destiny (eternal hero) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) feat benefits, but overcome by being slain by the specific weapon?



If you couple that with DR X/specific weapon, regeneration X only overcome by specific weapon, and throw in 3.0 magic immunity for good measure, is that workable?








Well found, I'll read up on those! :smallsmile:

Notably, unless you allow the creature to kill itself (for the resurrection) or teleport in a way that can't be prevented, the creature could still be trapped and effectively neutralized.

[Thurbane]

Notably, unless you allow the creature to kill itself (for the resurrection) or teleport in a way that can't be prevented, the creature could still be trapped and effectively neutralized.

True; but that might still be in the spirit of what I'm hoping to achieve...also, the Big Bad might have allies or minions who could free it.

[Biggus]

Well, there's the Tarraque...

More seriously, there's the Rejuvenation salient divine ability, whereby a deity who is killed automatically reforms a certain number of days later, and only being killed by a more powerful deity can prevent this. Probably not exactly what you're looking for (unless this is going to be a really high-level campaign) but could possibly be adapted?

EDIT: thinking about it, the Tarraque could qualify if there's no-one alive who can cast Wish or Miracle, in which case a Luck Blade with one or more wishes left might be the only possible way to kill it. "The lost age of magic" is a common enough fantasy trope after all...

[unseenmage]

Oh. Duh.

Ghosts already have Rejuvenation overcome only by insert plot point here.
Slain by the sword of whatever works just as well as any other earthly regret.

[Doctor Despair]

Oh. Duh.

Ghosts already have Rejuvenation overcome only by insert plot point here.
Slain by the sword of whatever works just as well as any other earthly regret.

Maybe they regret not being slain by the sword.

[Requiem_Jeer]

The key in doing something like this is figuring out the narrative you want.

Why can't something be killed except by that one specific thing?

Is it:
Keeps coming back? Ghost-style rejuvenation.
Will never die, but can be beaten down and sealed away? Tarrasque style immunity to death, but replace wish. Conventional boss immunities will suffice from there.
Immune to all harm except from X, Baldur style? I would just recommend you don't do this, as it's somewhat unsatisfying.

If you picture it like a novel antagonist, the necessary abilities will follow. You could even flip it a bit, as it's not so much that one needs the sword of X to slay them, but they need the medallion of Y to not get completely destroyed by the villains superweapon ability. Like he has an at-will AoE implosion aura or something bull**** like that (scale it appropriately to your campaign, something like that is definitely a level 20 superweapon), and the medallion creates an aura of NO to that ability.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Heroes of horror has that soul-locked idea, it's not even a template, that green lights the "can only be defeated permanently by X" where X is up to GM discretion, though I think there was a table of suggestions.

[Bucky]

Maybe they regret not being slain by the sword.

That's a nice tragic villain plot.

Party view: Villain is some sort of spirit that can only be slain with this minor artifact blade. He's apparently trying to obtain the sword to make himself immortal.
Ghost view: Won't pass on until he sees his finest work tested in live combat. He's trying to obtain it while antagonizing the PCs to use as opponents in that test.

[Endarire]

@OP: What is your main motivation for wanting to invoke this in 3.5? Noninteractive narratives and interactive games usually have different needs, wants, and expectations.

[Thurbane]

@OP: What is your main motivation for wanting to invoke this in 3.5? Noninteractive narratives and interactive games usually have different needs, wants, and expectations.

Honestly, just idle curiositymore than anything. Was watching a TV show with this as a theme the other day, and wondered how to represent it in 3.5 terms.

[Gruftzwerg]

Honestly, just idle curiositymore than anything. Was watching a TV show with this as a theme the other day, and wondered how to represent it in 3.5 terms.

There are options as have been mentioned. But my initial worries are still there. Most things only work up to the moment a (higher lvl?) full caster appears. The creature/villain needs to have the ability kit to prevent any options a caster might have to ignore/bypass/suppress his defense (high SR, Immunity to Magic, .. something along this line).

[Kesnit]

There are options as have been mentioned. But my initial worries are still there. Most things only work up to the moment a (higher lvl?) full caster appears.

Build the BBEG so that it is of a higher level than the party. If that requires epic, so be it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Build the BBEG so that it is of a higher level than the party. If that requires epic, so be it.

Epic alone wont stop an optimized wizard. You still need either Magic Immunity or High SR and/or high Saves.