Looking for a 4 level spell for my sorcerer tank

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

After two games without taking my spell known I am asking you for help.

This is my character
https://ddb.ac/characters/13255925/X2cbYt

I can replace a spell known as I did leveled up to sorcerer 8 but I like all my spells.

I was thinking about maybe adding a blasting spell but I am not sure if I want lighting bolt or Vitriolic Sphere. I will take Synaptic Static next level but I don't really want any of the current options I have.

We have a Bladesinger 10
Warlock (switching from fiend to celestial) 9(will be 10 after the switch).
A moon druid 9
A rogue1 shdow monk10

We have enough blasting but in some fights I want to do more then haste/darkness/sickening radiance and EB.
Sometimes I want to cast big spell and EB at the same turn.

[Kireban]

Replace the feather fall or the dispell. You have a wizard and a druid in the group. No reason to have these spells on a sorcerer with limited known spells

[prototype00]

I notice you don’t have Polymorph. That’s a useful spell if there ever was one, especially for a Sorceror.

Your party mate on their last legs? Turn them into a giant ape! Better yet, turn two of them into Giant Apes with Twin spell! (Giant Apes Stronk by the way)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Replace the feather fall or the dispell. You have a wizard and a druid in the group. No reason to have these spells on a sorcerer with limited known spells
I like feather fall, didn't used it but I do use a flying broom all the time (the character is a self proclaimed witch).
I also like dispell, you can never have enough anti magic abilities.

I am looking for a spell to take, not replace. I am missing a spell known.

I notice you don’t have Polymorph. That’s a useful spell if there ever was one, especially for a Sorceror.

Your party mate on their last legs? Turn them into a giant ape! Better yet, turn two of them into Giant Apes with Twin spell! (Giant Apes Stronk by the way)
The warlock, wizard and druid already have it.
And it was nerfed to be max cr = character level or spell slot(so with level 4 spell slots it is max cr4).

I do plan to take twin spell in two levels. But I will get there later.

[Eldariel]

Well, Watery Sphere is a good one. Not blast per ce but a very potent AOE nevertheless. Polymorph (a massively powerful self/ally buff and heal, that doubles as a potent single target Disable) is another option that's never worthless.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Well, Watery Sphere is a good one. Not blast per ce but a very potent AOE nevertheless. Polymorph (a massively powerful self/ally buff and heal, that doubles as a potent single target Disable) is another option that's never worthless.

I can get it.
Watery sphere is nice, I prefer the storm sphere.

But I have too much concentration spells to cast in fight.
I would have taken Greater Invisibility if our team didn't bypass it's need(we have a lot of advantage generating abilities, our monk have crazy stealth and the imp familiar of the warlock have invisibility).

Banishment is also to situational and we have two characters with it that ready it when they need it.

Storm sphere will work nicely with our wizard wall of force he likes so much and we don't have a str save stuff but our moon druid Ankylosaurus.

EDIT:
I may just end up removing mirror image and taking Confusion and Storm Shpere.

What do you think about it?

[ImproperJustice]

Storm Sphere does upscale pretty good.

I have burned the occasional level 6 slot on it.

[micahaphone]

To confirm, you want a 4th level spell, non concentration, for a witchy sorlock.

I don't know if DotMM or your table has enough room for social moves and/or avoiding fights, but Charm Monster is a nonconventional sorc pick. Or if as you say, a big blasty spell would be nice, Blight feels super witchy.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Storm Sphere does upscale pretty good.

I have burned the occasional level 6 slot on it.
This was the first time I looked at it.

To confirm, you want a 4th level spell, non concentration, for a witchy sorlock.

I don't know if DotMM or your table has enough room for social moves and/or avoiding fights, but Charm Monster is a nonconventional sorc pick. Or if as you say, a big blasty spell would be nice, Blight feels super witchy.

The main problem with Blight is that it feels weaker then EB.

If the DM don't want us to talk we just force the NPCs to talk with us by force. We play dirty :)
Charm monster may be nice but I just use roleplay and talk to them and roll a charisma check.
I also don't like the fact they know they were charm. I prefer to use suggestion with subtle spell to keep myself safe.
And she is a funny silly witch, not the Evil type.

[Bobthewizard]

Looking at your spell list, I wouldn't take another 4th level spell. You already have 3 prepared and only 2 slots. I'd go back and take another lower level spell.

Counterspell is always great to have, even if others already have it.

For crowd control, any of web, hypnotic pattern or fear are great. The party should have all 3.

Grease, blindness/deafness, or pyrotechnics can give some nonconcentration control.

For utility, I like invisibility and fly. They both upcast to cover more people.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Looking at your spell list, I wouldn't take another 4th level spell. You already have 3 prepared and only 2 slots. I'd go back and take another lower level spell.

Counterspell is always great to have, even if others already have it.

For crowd control, any of web, hypnotic pattern or fear are great. The party should have all 3.

Grease, blindness/deafness, or pyrotechnics can give some nonconcentration control.

For utility, I like invisibility and fly. They both upcast to cover more people.

I have way more then two 4 level slots, I have Font of Magic and I get more when we short rest. Our warlock is a spell every fight, I am all the spells at max level in the boss fight.
I convert most of my slots to level 4.
We have two brooms of flying and a portable hole, no need for fly and invisibility.
I would go control but my role in the party is single target damage and tanking.
I do agree that counter spell is great but my reaction it the most important action I have, I don't want to lose it.
As a sorcerer with quicken my action is a cheaper resource then my reaction and that is why I took dispell and not counter spell.

I may be a minmaxser but I minmax some stupid ideas.

[tatsuyashiba]

As a tank, you do your best by absorbing attacks and protecting party members.

I think twinned Greater Invisibility, on the Warlock and Rogue, can shore up the squishier elements in your party (disadvantage on attack, can’t be targeted by spells) and keep the focus on you and other beefy characters.

Right now, I think subtle Counterspell would be very powerful. That’s a Counterspell that can’t be countered, or a backup in case the Wizard’s Counterspell fails.

I think you should definitely keep Mirror Image. Pre-cast concentration free tanking for cheap. If you’d rather more offense - Blindness/Deafness is an action, no concentration, and can be upcast.

Or take Fireball now and replace soon with Synaptic Static or Cone of Cold.

Upcast Enhance Ability works with Subtle and can help in non-combat. Worst case: enhance Dex on Wizard when you enter a dungeon so he has advantage on initiative for the first combat.

[Nhorianscum]

Well.

You've stated that your role is "single target damage" and your spell list lacks Sray. (Which is slightly good with hex and hexcurse when spammed at 5th)

Past that eh? Spell selection is so party/campain dependant that I'm at a loss. Throwing my hat into the ring for blindness/deafness of you want a good non-concentration control option.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are only five total non-concentration Sorcerer 4 spells: Blight, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Ice Storm, and Vitriolic Sphere.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

As a tank, you do your best by absorbing attacks and protecting party members.

I think twinned Greater Invisibility, on the Warlock and Rogue, can shore up the squishier elements in your party (disadvantage on attack, can’t be targeted by spells) and keep the focus on you and other beefy characters.

Right now, I think subtle Counterspell would be very powerful. That’s a Counterspell that can’t be countered, or a backup in case the Wizard’s Counterspell fails.

I think you should definitely keep Mirror Image. Pre-cast concentration free tanking for cheap. If you’d rather more offense - Blindness/Deafness is an action, no concentration, and can be upcast.

Or take Fireball now and replace soon with Synaptic Static or Cone of Cold.

Upcast Enhance Ability works with Subtle and can help in non-combat. Worst case: enhance Dex on Wizard when you enter a dungeon so he has advantage on initiative for the first combat.
I use darkness instead of Greater Invisibility. Works great even if it requires more thinking to use correctly.

I didn't use mirror image for a really long time I forgot about it and usually I have better actions to use. And I am tanky enough to not need it(the image AC is 12 and mine is 21-26, it just don't do enough).

I like blindness/deafness, I may consider it in the future. The problem is that the enemies I will normally try and cast it on are powerful enough to be immune.

The character hate fireball and we have enough of them(wizard, warlock and a wand of fireballs).

Counterspell can be nice but for now we didn't saw a problem that made us need more then one.

Enhance Ability is nice, not needed in this party.

Well.

You've stated that your role is "single target damage" and your spell list lacks Sray. (Which is slightly good with hex and hexcurse when spammed at 5th)

Past that eh? Spell selection is so party/campain dependant that I'm at a loss. Throwing my hat into the ring for blindness/deafness of you want a good non-concentration control option.
Scorching Ray always looked underpowerd and it lacks the cha to damage the EB have.
I didn't took Hex even if it is great on this character (didn't want to be too strong).

There are only five total non-concentration Sorcerer 4 spells: Blight, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Ice Storm, and Vitriolic Sphere.

I agree there are only 5, it looks like the only one who is worth to use is Dimension Door.



Thanks for the help everyone, I will just take Storm sphere (BA attack with no sorcery points and works great with the wizard wall of force).
And Confusion (looks like no one is immune to it and I have my hounds)

[Houster]

Just take dominate beast.

Kidding.

Well storm sphere is OK, but level3 has better options for you I think.
Confusion is an awful awful spell. Don't take it. Very small aoe, and has a chance doing stuff you dont want, or just outright not doing anything. 4th level!!!
It's an insult spell.

You wanted a few things-
Non con
Big spell that is control or blast
No polymorph, G-invis, fireball

While storm sphere mostly fits that list, I suggest erupting earth. Has the same difficult terrain thing, bigger aoe damage, no concentration, blast and 3rd level.
You miss on a bonus action attack, but hey you are a sorlock. You are already a single target damage machine. No need to overkill. Agreed they are more or less equal of value.

And instead of confusion, take slow. Bigger aoe, no friendly fire, affect is consistent, and is just one of the best debuffs in the game. halves speed, and -2 ac(which helps with your eldritch blast and of course other attacks), disrupts spell casting and reduces attacks to 1!!!!! Those are major. And it's 3rd level! (instead of 4th). Simply superior to confusion in any way possible.

Slow with hound of ill omen is just devastating and makes a lot of enemies simply lose combat. It's a game changer. Much more than storm sphere or confusion.

Also hypnotic pattern is as (or more) powerful than slow.
I just like slow better. But either are fantastic.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Just take dominate beast.

Kidding.

Well storm sphere is OK, but level3 has better options for you I think.
Confusion is an awful awful spell. Don't take it. Very small aoe, and has a chance doing stuff you dont want, or just outright not doing anything. 4th level!!!
It's an insult spell.

You wanted a few things-
Non con
Big spell that is control or blast
No polymorph, G-invis, fireball

While storm sphere mostly fits that list, I suggest erupting earth. Has the same difficult terrain thing, bigger aoe damage, no concentration, blast and 3rd level.
You miss on a bonus action attack, but hey you are a sorlock. You are already a single target damage machine. No need to overkill. Agreed they are more or less equal of value.

And instead of confusion, take slow. Bigger aoe, no friendly fire, affect is consistent, and is just one of the best debuffs in the game. halves speed, and -2 ac(which helps with your eldritch blast and of course other attacks), disrupts spell casting and reduces attacks to 1!!!!! Those are major. And it's 3rd level! (instead of 4th). Simply superior to confusion in any way possible.

Slow with hound of ill omen is just devastating and makes a lot of enemies simply lose combat. It's a game changer. Much more than storm sphere or confusion.

Also hypnotic pattern is as (or more) powerful than slow.
I just like slow better. But either are fantastic.

I may forgot that slow exist.
It can be better.

But when I was re reading Slow I noticed Mind Thrust(UA) which look really nice.

Erupting Earth is nice but it is still a dex save and work worse with wall of force.

Now I need to choose between Slow and Mind Thrust.

We are going to meet some Drow and they will probably have caster that be able to dispell Slow so I am leaning towards Mind Thrust.

So Storm Sphere is fixed, I have a second choice, right now it is Slow or Mind Thrust.

And our Warlock player is bad at tactics, he already fireballed a group of enemies effected by hypnotic patterns before, I don't want to waste spells again. And hypnotic patterns have the problem of being a charm so a lot of immunities and advantage for the enemies to it.

And we don't really need game changers, we are waiting for the DM to give us a real challenge (in fights, the roleplay part is great)

[Houster]

Actually I never read UA spells. Mind thrust seems wonderful. Just a bonus action and can be upcasted to affect more guys... great spell.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Actually I never read UA spells. Mind thrust seems wonderful. Just a bonus action and can be upcasted to affect more guys... great spell.

Tanks for the discussion, it really helped me ;)
And now it is an action to cast, not bonus action.
I think it is better because I will want to send a dog before casting.

Now I have Str, Dex, Con and Int saves spells.

[Nhorianscum]

I use darkness instead of Greater Invisibility. Works great even if it requires more thinking to use correctly.

I didn't use mirror image for a really long time I forgot about it and usually I have better actions to use. And I am tanky enough to not need it(the image AC is 12 and mine is 21-26, it just don't do enough).

I like blindness/deafness, I may consider it in the future. The problem is that the enemies I will normally try and cast it on are powerful enough to be immune.

The character hate fireball and we have enough of them(wizard, warlock and a wand of fireballs).

Counterspell can be nice but for now we didn't saw a problem that made us need more then one.

Enhance Ability is nice, not needed in this party.

Scorching Ray always looked underpowerd and it lacks the cha to damage the EB have.
I didn't took Hex even if it is great on this character (didn't want to be too strong).


I agree there are only 5, it looks like the only one who is worth to use is Dimension Door.



Thanks for the help everyone, I will just take Storm sphere (BA attack with no sorcery points and works great with the wizard wall of force).
And Confusion (looks like no one is immune to it and I have my hounds)

So a note on stay. At 5th with hexcurse and hex up it's...

18d6+proffmod*6 damage.

So it's expensive in every way but does pack a wallop.

That said if UA is on the table I'm all for mind thrust. That spell is bonkers nutso busto.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

So a note on stay. At 5th with hexcurse and hex up it's...

18d6+proffmod*6 damage.

So it's expensive in every way but does pack a wallop.

That said if UA is on the table I'm all for mind thrust. That spell is bonkers nutso busto.

I decided to not go fully optimized
And it is
18*3.5+4*6 = 87
Vs
3*5.5+5*3+4*3= 43.5
But this is the difference between a level 5 spell and a cantrip.
And fire is a bad damage type.

It is strong but not enough to justify the difference IMO.

I may change my opinion in the future, but fore now it isn't needed.

Now, with level 9 slot it is a different story but our Warlock have some devils as enemies so I am not sure fire will be good.
Lets see if I will have a free spell known when I get to higher levels.

[Nhorianscum]

I decided to not go fully optimized
And it is
18*3.5+4*6 = 87
Vs
3*5.5+5*3+4*3= 43.5
But this is the difference between a level 5 spell and a cantrip.
And fire is a bad damage type.

It is strong but not enough to justify the difference IMO.

I may change my opinion in the future, but fore now it isn't needed.

Now, with level 9 slot it is a different story but our Warlock have some devils as enemies so I am not sure fire will be good.
Lets see if I will have a free spell known when I get to higher levels.

Oh the draw is quickened EB into SR when we're in tier 3. It's juuuust enough to hit every threshold value for the game's duration on super optimized DPR rotations but it's not "needed" as it's just more damage.

Not pushing just giving the whole "it's a lot better than it looks" shpeel.

Fire is sorta situational in that some campains it's just unresisisted and in others it's not really viable at all.

MM is the 2nd best "burst" spell as it has higher values with hexcurse but no interaction with hex.

9th level burst is just wish for hallow "vulnerability fire or force" and unload with and 8th level upcast. It's a banger.

(I've got no argument for SR over mind thrust and respect the choice)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Oh the draw is quickened EB into SR when we're in tier 3. It's juuuust enough to hit every threshold value for the game's duration on super optimized DPR rotations but it's not "needed" as it's just more damage.

Not pushing just giving the whole "it's a lot better than it looks" shpeel.

Fire is sorta situational in that some campains it's just unresisisted and in others it's not really viable at all.

MM is the 2nd best "burst" spell as it has higher values with hexcurse but no interaction with hex.

9th level burst is just wish for hallow "vulnerability fire or force" and unload with and 8th level upcast. It's a banger.

(I've got no argument for SR over mind thrust and respect the choice)

I just said I agree with you that Scorching Ray is better for damage.
I will probably get it later for crazy damage when needed.

[Nhorianscum]

I just said I agree with you that Scorching Ray is better for damage.
I will probably get it later for crazy damage when needed.

And I just agreed that your choice of strong BC stuff was pretty rad and that your choice to delay or eskew Sray was a good one >.>

Let the fightagreement commence!

(On a serious note appologies if I went a bit long on the blast-rant.)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

And I just agreed that your choice of strong BC stuff was pretty rad and that your choice to delay or eskew Sray was a good one >.>

Let the fightagreement commence!

(On a serious note appologies if I went a bit long on the blast-rant.)

No need to apologize, more information ia better even if it comes as a rant.