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View Full Version : DM Help How to DM a charismatic, beguiling, insane villain?



fergo
2020-07-28, 06:58 AM
Hi guys!

I've posted about this campaign before, specifically with issues I was having with one of the players. This is a bit more light-hearted, thank goodness!

The big bad of my campaign is a renegade general who believes himself to be the rightful heir to the throne. He's incredibly charismatic and persuasive, and has inspired the fanatical loyalty not only amongst his soldiers and those he comes into direct contact with, but at second-hand, building a cult throughout the land led by trusted followers.

(The 'random person claiming an unlikely decent from a royal house' was initially inspired by poor Lambert Simnel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert_Simnel), although the circumstances are of course very different. The ability to inspire fanatical loyalty aspect is of course a bit more out there, but hey, it is a fantasy setting, and there have certainly been historical precedents of leaders able to persuade their followers to join them heart and soul, and fanatical cults based on outlandish beliefs about particular individuals--I'm just aggrandising that a little bit. I'd initially thought of the campaign as being a sort of Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now kind of thing, with the party travelling through hostile lands to find the long-lost general, who has gone mad in the wilderness but has won the devotion of his followers).

It's worth mentioning that this is a no-magic setting, but one in which people believe in magic: the ability to summon and converse with celestial beings, prophesise the future by the stars, transmute matter through alchemy etc. (I'm using the practices of Dr John Dee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee) as my basic model, with a fictional monotheistic religion in place of the Abrahamic elements). The general's claim to the throne is justified/defended by the prophesising of a famous astrologer who acts on his behalf, and has a grounding in theological belief if you squint hard enough.

Oh, and he might not be a big bad at all, as at least one of the players is interested in joining him. So the character of the general could turn out to be very significant indeed. In any case, any face-to-face meeting is still some way off, but it's worth thinking ahead a little bit.

So this general is someone who is able to win the devotion of people, simply through his conversation. Obviously he doesn't have a 100% success rate--he's not a hypnotist--but I'd really hope that the characters' encounter with him isn't completely underwhelming, and they're left understanding why so many people find him a charismatic, divinely appointed leader.

Obviously, I'm not a charismatic, divinely appointed leader in real life: I'm an inexperienced DM. Inevitably I'm not going to reflect the full grandeur of the general's character, whatever it is about him that others find so appealing. But I'd like to do my best to make him memorable, even if the players (and probably their characters) aren't convinced.

The only real idea I have is to work on set pieces of the conversation which, to the best of my script-writing abilities, ooze self-confidence and seductive purpose. So any advice anyone has on that front would be greatly appreciated. But that's limited by my own abilities, both in preparation and in the moment.

I'd also thought of including fawning NPCs who hang on every word the general says, so the PCs can see the effect the general has on others even if they themselves are completely unswayed. The danger of this would be that if I mess up and the general just comes across as an idiot (because I'm an idiot) then this might be even more of an anticlimax for the players.

The other option would be to try and introduce a mechanical element to this: make them role a saving throw or else they fall under the general's spell, so to speak, find themselves beguiled by his words and convinced by his arguments. I'm not a huge fan of this idea. Except in very rare circumstances I'd prefer not to tell my players "this is what your character thinks, and now you have to roleplay as such", especially when there isn't a magical justification.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to handle this?

kingcheesepants
2020-07-28, 07:32 AM
Sounds like a fun character if a bit of a challenge for those with limited acting experience. One good thing to keep in mind is that even if the guy is wrong or crazy, he believes in himself and so do lots of others. So they can't know they're boarding the crazy train until they're already too far gone to realize it. Start off with the small and factually correct and self evident things and build up to the outlandish but make each step along the way totally plausible. Same with your delivery, start off whispering, pulling in the listeners with an intimate feel of personal connection. Then gradually build up faster and louder, everyone listening along and urging him forth. Oh and get as personal as possible, working off the characters ideals and bonds. If one character has a strong bond to family have the NPC emphasize how as a leader he is like the older brother/father to his followers and how the other king is a usurper who will take you from your family. If the character has an ideal of never backing down from a challenge make sure the NPC notes how persistent he is in the face of adversity.
I would recommend against making them roll to avoid being charmed or forcing them to adopt a certain attitude. If they don't buy it that's fine (he is after all the bad guy) but if you can have him make a more or less logical argument that hits on things the PCs hold dear, that should be more than sufficient for them to understand the appeal.

TheStranger
2020-07-28, 07:58 AM
There’s nothing supernatural, or even historically unusual, about a general seizing power. Nor is it hard for a charismatic leader to influence the culture of an entire organization. I don’t think you need to overthink this or invoke any game mechanics, just go with the standard “military coup” playbook.

The general has a reputation (earned or not) for being both a good general and a good man. Wins battles, takes care of his soldiers, etc. He’s charismatic, but not supernaturally so. Just your standard greeting people by name, asking about their family, and generally seeming interested in them, combined with inspiring speeches when called for.

At the same time, the general is distrustful and disparaging (rightly or wrongly) of the powers that be. If the king wasn’t so corrupt/shortsighted, we would have won that last war, the soldiers would be eating better, their families wouldn’t be poor, etc. And he’s not shy about sharing that viewpoint with his officers, who share it with their soldiers, who share it with new recruits, etc. Pretty soon, the consensus in the army is that the general is the only one who really cares about the nation, which may even be true. It’s a very easy “us vs them” mentality for an army to slide into, I think. I’ll avoid any real-world examples in deference to the forum rules.

So you don’t need to go overboard. Just make the general outspoken, and ground his worldview in enough reality to make it convincing. His officers don’t need to be fawning, just respectful and loyal. Just put yourself in the shoes of a career soldier/officer who’s been fighting for a nation whose leadership seems indifferent, and it’s easy to make a strong argument for replacing that leadership. It’s not treason, it’s patriotism.

Darth Credence
2020-07-28, 11:54 AM
My first reply disappeared due to the server being busy, so this will be fairly short.
The Stranger has good ideas here - I absolutely agree on the day to day stuff of building loyalty by knowing things about each of his men that he can talk with them about. Amazing how much morale and loyalty go up if it seems like the guy in charge knows who you are and cares about you.
Since you have time, I'd read some famous speeches and try to adapt them for your purposes. There are real world examples, and fictional examples. I'd listen to a good actor performing Shakespeare's Henry V. Both the "Once more unto the breach" speech, and the St. Crispin's Day speech are great for getting a crowd motivated and on your side. If you could make a relevant speech based on one of those, and listen to someone who knows the right cadence to give the speech at, you could have him giving a speech with the players in attendance. If you don't feel up to actually giving it in the session, you could record it until you had it right, and then play it for the group.
Finally, your title included "insane" as a descriptor for the character. What makes him insane? Is it something that makes him more or less likely to attract followers?

Kol Korran
2020-07-28, 02:19 PM
I'd also advise to avoid trying to act super confident, oozing charisma, seductive purpose and fanwing. Those would ring as alarm bells tonthe players, and portray more a cliche villain, then someone people might really follow.

Continuing on TheStranger's advice, I'd say you need to play the general as a man YOU would respect, value, look up to and want to follow. Someone upstanding, whose values are worthy, and he backs them up consistently with words, actions, even if it discomforts him, or jeoperdises him.

A man YOU would look up to. In a campaign I once ran, there was a queen who led armies that fought a demon horde. As the players met her, they met a warrior, who really cared for her people, did her best, was always weighing options, yet was brave, non condescending, a good person all in all, and not your typical royal. They cared for her and admired her immensely, even though they became more powerful than her.

Don't roleplay him by trying to emulate the charisma that gets people to follow him, roleplay him with the personality, character and actions that would get people to follow him.

The PCs may encounter other followers who share some experiences from meeting him, or hear deeds about his outstanding choices, behaviours, speeches, actions or sacrifices... focus on the act, less on the fawning.

And, if you still want a zealot-y cult of followers, you can have him dislike such blind devotion, regreting he has become an icon, instead of an example. (I suggedt you look a the story og G'kar from the late seasons of Babylon 5).

Good luck!

Man_Over_Game
2020-07-28, 03:46 PM
All you need to like someone is for them to give you want you're looking for. That could be a compliment, or the promise of safety, or control. That's all you need.

If you can convince a bunch of random civilians that their life is bad because they've been worshiping the wrong rock, and that worshiping this rock will solve all of their problems, you got yourself a cult.

So this is a guy that promises the carrot over the stick. He may still use the stick, and it may be overly painful, but that's all fine if the person he's talking to knows of the consequences and believes they deserve them.

The rest comes from "Everyman" talk. Common sense, spoken in a way that lightly compliments good things (the audience, the carrot), and lightly insults the bad (punishment/stick, the enemy) in a way that's matter-of-fact with little opinion. Force them into situations where they must insult themselves in order to defy you.

For example:


"Your options are...expected. You can have us raze and pillage your city, or we can keep you under our protection. I heard you are a man of the people - what would they say?"
"You understand that your son - knowingly - committed a crime. Here, Death is Justice. We all can understand how hard it is to be in your position, but nobody said patriotism comes easy."
"No, I disagree. The King hasn't truly addressed the situation your people are in. Perhaps there was a change in priorities, but I think your people deserve better".
"You're right, it will be difficult. But I've come to understand your men to be the bravest in the Legion. I would not have praised you for the position if I didn't think you were the best men for the job".

Dr paradox
2020-07-29, 01:28 AM
Excellent ideas so far, mostly centering around how to make him likeable. It's simpler than it sounds: My trick is to make him perceptive. Players get tired of needing to advocate for their own recognition, or convince people that someone can't be trusted, or that something is obviously a bad idea. One of the things that'll make players like an authority figure is that they don't need to be convinced of things the players already know.

The problem would seem to be the "Insane" part. How do you make him absolutely convinced of his divine purpose, foretold by kooky John D style witchery, without setting off alarm bells in the players' heads?

My move is not to make him "chosen," but "burdened." The prophecy doesn't say that he's destined to rise to power and uplift his countrymen: that kind of self aggrandizement raises a lot of red flags. Rather, the prophecy foretells doom unless something is done, unless a change is made, unless the king is deposed. It breaks the General's heart to plunge his nation into violence, to make war against the king he swore an oath to serve, but he cannot shut his eyes against the truth: for the kingdom to survive, the king must die. He just happens to be the only person who can do it.

This is not unlike standard fascist framings, in that fascists tend to promise not only glory in case of victory, but absolute destruction if they fail. Nothing is just an opportunity, everything is a mythic, existential struggle for the fate of the world! By this frame, their every barbarity becomes excusable.

I3igAl
2020-07-29, 04:59 AM
As a GM you know what the players and their characters want. Have the NPC be friendly and offer it to them. They will already like him.

Also consider how the heroes time with the dude is limited. Make shure to spread some rumors on the great things the general did. Have them talk to some of his admirers before they meet him.

Pauly
2020-07-29, 06:14 AM
If I am RPing a character that is far from what I am in real life I usually find an historical or literary equivalent and model myself on them.

Your BBEG sounds a lot like Hong Xiuquan leader of the Taiping rebellion in China in the 1860s. One very good source is “Flashman and the Dragon” in which the great Harry Flashman esq. is dragged kicking and screaming into the middle of the Taiping rebellion.

fergo
2020-07-29, 07:56 AM
Thanks everyone for your really useful feedback!



Sounds like a fun character if a bit of a challenge for those with limited acting experience... Start off with the small and factually correct and self evident things and build up to the outlandish but make each step along the way totally plausible. Same with your delivery, start off whispering, pulling in the listeners with an intimate feel of personal connection. Then gradually build up faster and louder, everyone listening along and urging him forth.

Thanks for this practical advice! Hopefully by the time I get to that session I'll have a bit more experience DMing/acting, and with some preparation I'll be able to pull it off!




The general has a reputation (earned or not) for being both a good general and a good man. Wins battles, takes care of his soldiers, etc. He’s charismatic, but not supernaturally so. Just your standard greeting people by name, asking about their family, and generally seeming interested in them, combined with inspiring speeches when called for.


I absolutely agree on the day to day stuff of building loyalty by knowing things about each of his men that he can talk with them about. Amazing how much morale and loyalty go up if it seems like the guy in charge knows who you are and cares about you.



I'd also advise to avoid trying to act super confident, oozing charisma, seductive purpose and fanwing. Those would ring as alarm bells to the players, and portray more a cliche villain, then someone people might really follow... Don't roleplay him by trying to emulate the charisma that gets people to follow him, roleplay him with the personality, character and actions that would get people to follow him.

This is definitely the line I'm going to follow: on one level, a good general who knows his troops, listens to them, talks with them, inspires their loyalty and trust through the regular day-to-day actions of a good leader. I'll definitely start to seed these ideas as soon as the PCs start to encounter soldiers who knew the general personally: have them talk about him as a good man, a good general, and a good leader, who protected them and fought for them through difficult times.



All you need to like someone is for them to give you want you're looking for. That could be a compliment, or the promise of safety, or control. That's all you need.

If you can convince a bunch of random civilians that their life is bad because they've been worshiping the wrong rock, and that worshiping this rock will solve all of their problems, you got yourself a cult.

That's an element I've been playing up, perhaps without conceptualising it quite like that but yes, you're getting straight to the point. What I see the general and his astrologer ally as offering people is certainty, cast-iron certainty in uncertain times: a just cause, a divinely-appointed leader, and a foretold victory that will change the world forever. And they've found just the right people to sell this message to. Obviously the general can offer a lot of changes to his discontented and disillusioned soldiers, and his more cultish followers inspired by the astrologer are mostly students and monks, people engaged in an intellectual world of discussion and debate over minute points of theology, who I see as particularly susceptible to a wave of enthusiasm and some sweeping new movement promising certainty and change.



My trick is to make him perceptive. Players get tired of needing to advocate for their own recognition, or convince people that someone can't be trusted, or that something is obviously a bad idea. One of the things that'll make players like an authority figure is that they don't need to be convinced of things the players already know.

Great point. A lot of the general's followers have tended to be a bit dismissive about suggestions the PCs attempt to make--perhaps a bit too much so, in hindsight. I was stressing the mystical and fanatical nature of the general's following--after all, why should they listen to the PC's concerns when they know that the general's victory is divinely appointed and that nothing can stand in his way?

Having the general himself hear them out and really address their points would be a welcome change and immediately make him more sympathetic to the players.



Also consider how the heroes time with the dude is limited.

Good idea. Controlling the setting and the length of the meeting will definitely help maintain atmosphere, and stop me going off the rails in terms of his dialogue.



Your BBEG sounds a lot like Hong Xiuquan leader of the Taiping rebellion in China in the 1860s. One very good source is “Flashman and the Dragon” in which the great Harry Flashman esq. is dragged kicking and screaming into the middle of the Taiping rebellion.

That's actually a really good analogy that never crossed my mind. A leader who is sympathetic in that in some ways he is addressing legitimate grievances and attempting to redress social wrongs, but one whose authority is based on mystical beliefs which are, prima facie, hard to swallow.

And the Flashman reference is funny: my avatar, done some time ago by one of the wonderful artists on this forum, is supposed to be Flashman, as I was reading a lot of the GMF books at the time.



Finally, your title included "insane" as a descriptor for the character. What makes him insane? Is it something that makes him more or less likely to attract followers?

I've left this point until the end because I've had to give it more thought, and because I see it as central to how I see the general as a character. Yes, he can be a good general in a mundane, every-day way; yes, he can listen to the PCs and win their sympathy by stressing values I know are important to them; yes, he can be addressing genuine grievances. But at the same time, if I can manage it, I want to make it clear to my players that his brilliance and his madness are two sides of the same coin. He genuinely believes he is a divinely appointed chosen one destined to change the world. This belief is at the core of his leadership: it empowers him to act as a saviour figure to his soldiers, and helps inspire his followers to heights of fanatical loyalty.

I see him as someone who went through hell in a desolate wasteland, holding out against seemingly endless waves of enemies with little or nothing in the way of supplies or reinforcements from his home country. He survived by determination and will, inspiring his followers to fight on against seemingly hopeless odds. And somewhere along the way he... breaks, but in a brilliant way, like a smashed mirror that glitters like diamonds but which is, fundamentally, very, very broken. He looks out at the wilderness and all sense of connection or loyalty he had to the powers that be was shattered, leaving behind only his own self-belief and strength of will.

And then an astrologer comes along, who is herself inspired by his charismatic leadership and (I think genuinely) starts telling people he is the divinely-appointed reincarnation/heir of a historic king, destined to seize the throne and rid the land of all evils and iniquities. And this just kind of clicks: the general believes it heart and soul and it begins to shape every aspect of his self-identity, and his soldiers, already convinced that the general was the one thing standing between them and certain destruction and perfectly willing to believe that their superiors in the army and the monarch herself had basically sent them to their deaths for corrupt or meaningless purposes, follow along.

Perhaps it's a bit far-fetched and silly, I don't know. It started off as a vague idea I built my campaign around, but the general himself was always more of a shadowy figure in the centre of it, the sun around which everything else revolved but not one that could be seen directly. Now I'm trying to work out the details, so that he works both in the story and in the game.

Pauly
2020-07-30, 09:26 PM
Thinking of “Flashman and the Dragon” a bit more.
Hong Xiuquang is not depicted by Flashy as being especially charismatic. What he does describe is how his followers are totally smitten by him. He describes some charismatic elements, such as being held by his gaze and so on, but the extent of Hong Xiuquang’s charisma is primarily depicted by the devotion of his entourage.

Squire Doodad
2020-07-30, 10:35 PM
If you ever have the party directly confront him, be sure to, in a completely unrelated event, have him invite them to dinner with a legitimate sense of well-being in the message. Something like "His Highness has heard of the great deeds down by [the party] in his future kingdom, and is requesting your presence for a cordial dinner". The party could have just burnt down his brewery and killed a group of soldiers to stop them from razing the capital, it doesn't matter. He's inviting them to have a nice meal and a cup of mead.

Quick question - how is he a villain? Does he want to reclaim his "throne" and burn everything in his path (or rather, everything that doesn't immediately jump to his side), or is he more posing a threat to the stability and order of the nearby functional political system? I am assuming the current country he is living in is a successful one and your villain taking power would cause issues with legitimacy and possibly a civil war.


The other option would be to try and introduce a mechanical element to this: make them role a saving throw or else they fall under the general's spell, so to speak, find themselves beguiled by his words and convinced by his arguments. I'm not a huge fan of this idea. Except in very rare circumstances I'd prefer not to tell my players "this is what your character thinks, and now you have to roleplay as such", especially when there isn't a magical justification.

I will say that since this is a non-magical world, making the players roll dice to save against his words is probably a bad idea (it'd be a bad one in general, especially during a role-playing scene). However, there's no reason he can't offer things from his vast resource pool he's acquired thanks to his entourage - even if he only recalls seeing/hearing what he has to offer and doesn't actually have it.

I could easily see him sweetening deals with various lesser treasures and items, possibly with errors in what he's saying to tip the party off. That depends on whether you want to portray him as just bluffing his way, legitimately believing he is the rightful heir, a figurehead, or some other such scenario.