OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Rinion]

Seeing Redcloak's and Durkon's respective upbringings and worldviews grapple with each other is magnificent.

[BirdHarvester]

This conversation is going surprisingly well.

[Unavenger]

Very nice. *Applause*.

[IChosePoorly]

I'm waiting for the other differently-sized boot to drop...

[aapje]

Goblin lives matter!

[understatement]

Huh. Redcloak's eye looks kind of weird.

Other than that...wow. Awesome strip.

Quick, Durkon, mention his god won't make it!

[Dragonus45]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

[Psyren]

Uh-oh. This is drifting into areas Durkon can't possibly negotiate for. Sure Thor might agree that the goblins should be allowed to keep Azure City, but what if the Twelve don't agree? Two-color Snarl? And even if Durkon says all the gods agree, how can Redcloak trust them to keep their word once the Snarl is no longer a threat?

Also, they're not exactly whispering. What happens if Xykon wanders over?

[Peelee]

Uh-oh. This is drifting into areas Durkon can't possibly negotiate for. Sure Thor might agree that the goblins should be allowed to keep Azure City, but what if the Twelve don't agree? Two-color Snarl? And even if Durkon says all the gods agree, how can Redcloak trust them to keep their word once the Snarl is no longer a threat?

Also, they're not exactly whispering. What happens if Xykon wanders over?

Imean really, Durkon can't negotiate for anything. This strikes me more as a fact - finding mission. Getting the demands and desires to deliver to the boss, and they maybe the Thor can reach out to TDO with an offer that would at least attract his attention.

[The MunchKING]

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"? That's some MtG Goblin naming structure right there. :p

[Sutremaine]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done.

I recall he did something the same to Oona. She wanted more opportunities for hobgoblins, and Redcloak said that her one colony could trade with his one city as though that counted as equality. Redcloak is very blind to his own prejudices... but it's good to see the goblin peoples' grievances being articulated.

[Fyraltari]

Wait!











How did Hobgobstan lose? That was clearly the superior option!


Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation.

Redcloak is a self-professed speciesist so this isn’t surprising.

[Draconi Redfir]

good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. I wonder if Redcloak realizes that the position he is taking is "if we dont' get what we want, nobody gets what they want, or anything at all" since if the gods destroy the world that's how it ends up.
That isn't clear to me (him realizing that).

2. Good to see Redcloak start this negotiation with a hard/strong position.

3. Years ago I took a course on labor union / management negotiations. The standard union entering position was always: what's mine is mine what's yours is negotiable. Redcloak has taken that position as an opener, which is a sound negotiating tactic.

4. I'm glad this comic ended up with a joke.

(IIRC, for those who have not read Start of Darkness, they covered some of the core material in that book with this strip's discussion ... )

Thog's take on this comic would be:

1. Talkee dwarf and talkee goblin talkee too much.
2. Thog not like goblin casting aspersions at Thog's parentage.

[gatemansgc]

well i'm glad they chose gobbotopia too LOL

is the site loading slow for anyone else?

[Mad Humanist]

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"? That's some MtG Goblin naming structure right there. :p

wait! are you saying this is a reference to a game. Please provide evidence if it is. I like to track this sort of stuff.

[KorvinStarmast]

is the site loading slow for anyone else? Yes, I get plenty of internal server error messages. Have for the last two days.

[Lord Torath]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.That jumped out at me, too.


Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"? That's some MtG Goblin naming structure right there. :pGreat job on the apostrophe placement. As Rich has it, "The Goblin's Republic of Goblins" belongs to a single goblin, rather than to all of them. Come to think of it, that could be deliberate, although if the goblins voted on the name, then, unless Red Cloak suggested it, it's probably a mistake.

[Schroeswald]

well i'm glad they chose gobbotopia too LOL

is the site loading slow for anyone else?

Yeah, I've been having trouble for awhile.

[Dausuul]

So, here's how I'm betting things go down:

Durkon and Redcloak hash things out, with a fair amount of sparks flying, but ultimately they work out a deal that is fair to all sides.

Then they discover that neither of their gods will accept the deal they've made: Thor because he can't get the other gods on board, and the Dark One because TDO is not actually a benevolent deity in any sense.

[Bartok]

Have I missed something or has Durkon failed to mention that the Dark One won't survive long enough to be part of the next world building?

[Ninja Dragon]

This is going surprigingly well. Even though RC is taking hardline positions, he's 100% open to negoatiate. I'd never bet this would happen after reading Start of Darkness.

Wonder how this goes south.

[Psyren]

Imean really, Durkon can't negotiate for anything. This strikes me more as a fact - finding mission. Getting the demands and desires to deliver to the boss, and they maybe the Thor can reach out to TDO with an offer that would at least attract his attention.

But Thor CAN'T (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) reach out to TDO, that's the whole reason for this approach in the first place. Durkon has to convince Redcloak - with no collateral and nothing for RC to go on except faith in deities he has no reason to trust.

It might still work - clerics are the most capable of leaps of faith after all - but the outlook for a successful resolution here is looking fairly grim.

[El Dorado]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

[Coyote0715]

And so begins Festivus....

[Frozenstep]

But Thor CAN'T (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) reach out to TDO, that's the whole reason for this approach in the first place. Durkon has to convince Redcloak - with no collateral and nothing for RC to go on except faith in deities he has no reason to trust.

It might still work - clerics are the most capable of leaps of faith after all - but the outlook for a successful resolution here is looking fairly grim.

What really needs to happen is to convince TDO that it would be worth it to open up enough for Thor/others to reach out to him, before he has the snarl ready to use (because he won't have it ready to use because the world will be blown up).

[EmperorSarda]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

[Hiro Quester]

Wow. I love all of this.

I thoroughly appreciate the complexity of Durkon and Redcloak discussing anti-goblin racism/speciesism ("Monsters") and Dwarf privilege ("Adventurers"), and I applaud Rich for a comic that encourages readers to think about potential real-world relevance of this topic (as good art should do).

But it's worth noting that us discussing these potential connections to real world politics is explicitly defined in the forum rules an inappropriate topic.

[Thanatos95]

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

Nope, just an edition upgrade. It was the very first gag in OotS, so it would be very appropriate for it to be the last one as well.

[link3710]

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

No, look at the very first comic strip! Wouldn't it be a nice bookend to start the comic with upgrading to 3.5, and end it with upgrading to 4(/5/6/whatever it gets called)th edition?

Also, despite the fact that this was clearly planned out years in advance, it's interesting to see the comic swing so much into feeling like commentary on current events, both of the BLM and the "D&D Races have inherent issues discourse" kind.

[Arathorne]

How did Hobgobstan lose? That was clearly the superior option!



I am in full agreement here this name would have got my vote also. :smallbiggrin:

[SpectralTime]

What I like about this discussion is, when Redcloak turns it into a contest of rhetoric, Durkon struggles, but when Durkon is able to turn it into discussing the facts of the case, fair and plain, in such simple but accurate terms that the point at hand isn't up for debate, he pulls ahead. Makes sense, given Redcloak probably enjoys better Charisma, but Durkon better Wisdom, relative levels and performance enhancing items aside.

[2D8HP]

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"?[...]


I agree, 'tis very catchy.

[Dragonus45]

good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.

[LadyEowyn]

YES!!

IT’S TIME!!

Also, confirmation that Redcloak’s demands really are for equality, not world conquest.

[Zhorn]

:redcloak: "I wouldn't expect a dwarf who was surrounded by gold and gems to understand what it's like to struggle or do without"
:durkon: "... Uh huh"

That! That right there is where the challenge in the negotiations lie.
Redcloak is right in that goblins have had it rough, but he's blind to how other races could understand the experiences of his people. No matter what Redcloak gets out of this deal, that attitude there will hold him back from ever feeling equal.

edit:
also +1 for Hobgobstan.
... my DM asked me ages back where my wizard hails from... I think I now know :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja Dragon]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

It's ironic because Redcloak is totally wrong about the assumptions he's making about Durkon's life, yet he would be right if he had compared the dwarves as a whole to the goblins.

And kudos to Durkon for just swallowing it and not letting it affect the negotiation. High Wisdom stat indeed.

[Syncrogti]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

I like this, a lot. I love it when the comic breaks the fourth wall/acknowledges the game it is based on.

What would the race look like in terms of stats and so forth? Feats? proficiencies?

[happycrow]

Worst case? Goblins cease to exist and all the Gods' efforts go to naught -- again, and possibly forever. RC may have his blind spots, but he's the one needing to be brought to the table, and all the cards are in his hands, because regardless of RC's issues, goblins at large are in a great position to go all Ahab on the gods.

[Dragonus45]

It's ironic because Redcloak is totally wrong about the assumptions he's making about Durkon's life, yet he would be right if he had compared the dwarves as a whole to the goblins.


Is it a fair comparison though? He seems to assume an easy life of plenty and riches, but that hasn’t been what we saw of dwarven culture at all. And also forgets that even if they might have easier access to material wealth through the highly dangerous and difficult job of mining work they also have Hel and that entire larger conflict making life as a dwarf deeply unpleasant in so many ways.

[Wildstag]

Great to see Durkon was able to bring Redcloak back down from the "I have them in abject terror!" high. Durkon hasn't really explained why the "Redcloak success" is ultimately a loss for Goblins in the long run, and I suspect that kind of information would be crucial to the discussion: if the Gods feel like they have to cut and run, they will do so at the drop of a hat, and The Dark One will not survive into the next world.

At least Redcloak is steering the conversation into a bargaining chip direction though. It'd be interesting for him to actually talk to TDO though. Perhaps for him, equality isn't enough and vengeance is desirable. If it goes that way, then Redcloak really can't do anything. He might have power, but without his God's support, it's just two mortals talking things out right now.

I also really love that Durkon just moved past the jab in panel 8 without getting hung up on it.

Also, it's neat that Redcloak basically confirms that Orcs are just socially accepted in the world, with a very different dynamic than you'd see in other settings. There might have been confirmation about that elsewhere, but I think for the most part we've only seen Half-Orcs treated casually.

[Ninja Dragon]

Is it a fair comparison though? He seems to assume an easy life of plenty and riches, but that hasn’t been what we saw of dwarven culture at all. And also forgets that even if they might have easier access to material wealth through the highly dangerous and difficult job of mining work they also have Hel and that entire larger conflict making life as a dwarf deeply unpleasant in so many ways.

I think I'd still prefer living my life in dangerous mine work than living my life being hunted by another species for xp, tbh.

[Ninja Dragon]

if the Gods feel like they have to cut and run, they will do so at the drop of a hat, and The Dark One will not survive into the next world.


Uh... why wouldn't he?

[Personification]

I love how this comic showcases the real pain that drives RC's actions as well as the way that it blinds him to the way that he has succeeded. Durkon's point about achieving equality through stabbing versus healing is really deep, and the way that Rich used the characterization and plot development from the previous book (where he showed the Thundershields living in poverty) to highlight RC's ignorance and speciesism without having to interrupt story flow.

[AlphaNone]

Uh... why wouldn't he?

It was mentioned in strip 1144.

[AlphaNone]

No, look at the very first comic strip! Wouldn't it be a nice bookend to start the comic with upgrading to 3.5, and end it with upgrading to 4(/5/6/whatever it gets called)th edition?

That reminds me, has Rich ever announced plans to do any material on 5th edition?

[gatemansgc]

I like this, a lot. I love it when the comic breaks the fourth wall/acknowledges the game it is based on.

What would the race look like in terms of stats and so forth? Feats? proficiencies?

maybe give them longer lifespans too!

[Elifia]

I like this, a lot. I love it when the comic breaks the fourth wall/acknowledges the game it is based on.

What would the race look like in terms of stats and so forth? Feats? proficiencies?

Is the comic not still based on 3.5e? If so, are the stats on the d20srd not the official stats? Those list the following:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

[NobleCuriosity]

Okay wow.

Redcloak getting all excited makes me more and more think Xykon is going to walk in on this.

That said, it almost seems unfair to Redcloak’s character development for him not to be the one to end this meeting one way or another.


Great to see Durkon was able to bring Redcloak back down from the "I have them in abject terror!" high. Durkon hasn't really explained why the "Redcloak success" is ultimately a loss for Goblins in the long run, and I suspect that kind of information would be crucial to the discussion: if the Gods feel like they have to cut and run, they will do so at the drop of a hat, and The Dark One will not survive into the next world.

At least Redcloak is steering the conversation into a bargaining chip direction though. It'd be interesting for him to actually talk to TDO though. Perhaps for him, equality isn't enough and vengeance is desirable. If it goes that way, then Redcloak really can't do anything. He might have power, but without his God's support, it's just two mortals talking things out right now.

I also really love that Durkon just moved past the jab in panel 8 without getting hung up on it.

Also, it's neat that Redcloak basically confirms that Orcs are just socially accepted in the world, with a very different dynamic than you'd see in other settings. There might have been confirmation about that elsewhere, but I think for the most part we've only seen Half-Orcs treated casually.

I suspect the “Dark one wants Vengeance” is likely, unfortunately. Ironically the living one probably wouldn’t have, but the god the Dark One was raised by a yearlong campaign of murderous vengeance. We know belief affects the Gods tremendously.

However, I don’t think what we’ve seen supports that Orcs are fully socially accepted. They are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but Therkla had to put up with a lot of racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”



That reminds me, has Rich ever announced plans to do any material on 5th edition?

Not that I’m aware. He did a storyline about the Ootsers meeting the 4e versions of themselves in Snips, snails and Dragon tails. I haven’t heard of any plans to do that with 5e though.

[Blatt]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.

[drazen]

Because I'm always tripped up by the most important issues, I'm still baffled that they didn't just go with "The Goblins' Republic of Hobgoblistan."

[Snails]

What really needs to happen is to convince TDO that it would be worth it to open up enough for Thor/others to reach out to him, before he has the snarl ready to use (because he won't have it ready to use because the world will be blown up).

Based on the info TDO has, this is looking win-win, right now. If he gets a pet Snarl, he gets to squeeze out concessions. If the world is destroyed, he gets concessions when the world is remade.

That TDO will probably not survive to the next world is not something this god is aware of. Furthermore, even Thor does not claim it as an absolute truth; Thor only mentions that gods stronger than TDO have failed to survive in the past.

[shockeroo]

They’re lucky it’s a pre-internet society, or they’d all be living in Gobby McGobface by now!

[kenlund]

I liked the reference Redcloak made to adventurers killing a village of Goblins is considered good...while a Goblins killing a village of humans would be considered bad. One time playing D&D, when I was new to it, I brought up that unprovoked we did a home invasion on goblins, killed everyone and stole everything of value. And the we weren't attacked or even noticed...until we ran across them as a random encounter while traveling and started killing. We even entered (broke in) using move silently and hide checks. So we caught them off guard and slaughtered many of them before they could react. It seemed odd to me to do this since our group was good aligned. But as long as the Paladin and Cleric gave the appropriate tithe of their share of the stolen treasure to their Church/Gods, everything was ok.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

And this was before they got their current island, which they have now, and have already begun settling. It just doesn't make any sense to force two civilizations to pack up and move out, leaving one homeless and an established island abandoned, when you could just leave both of them as they are and be fine.

They could certainly arrange for Gobbotopia to release their ensalved human populations and let any resistance members leave the city peacefully, maybe return items and furniture to the families that originally owned them, but i don't see why the land would need to be given up. Do the Azurites even have the numbers needed to populate a city like that any more?

[Ruck]

How did Hobgobstan lose? That was clearly the superior option!

Calling it that would give the lie to the appealing but ultimately specious pan-goblinoid narrative.

[Aisper]

I think the problem with Durkon's "three paths" summary (as concise as it was) is that it incentivizes Redcloak to attack Durkon.

In Redcloak's eyes, Option #1 is bad for goblins, but much less likely if Durkon is dead. Option #2 is potentially good (not the "gods blow up the world" part, but the "Redcloak/Xykon stops the Order" part) and also much easier if Durkon is dead. Option #3 may be the best option, but doesn't require Durkon, so Redcloak may as well hedge his bets and kill Durkon.

I could see Redcloak ending up convinced by Durkon but still attacking him as a practical course of action.

[Cirin]

good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

{scrubbed}

So yeah, people can have very, very long memories about these sorts of things. When a city that's the hub of an entire Empire, an entire culture, an entire civilization is overrun by invaders. . .if that culture or civilization survives in any capacity, they tend to remember and be bitter about it for centuries to come.

[Dragonus45]

I liked the reference Redcloak made to adventurers killing a village of Goblins is considered good...while a Goblins killing a village of humans would be considered bad. One time playing D&D, when I was new to it, I brought up that unprovoked we did a home invasion on goblins, killed everyone and stole everything of value. And the we weren't attacked or even noticed...until we ran across them as a random encounter while traveling and started killing. We even entered (broke in) using move silently and hide checks. So we caught them off guard and slaughtered many of them before they could react. It seemed odd to me to do this since our group was good aligned. But as long as the Paladin and Cleric gave the appropriate tithe of their share of the stolen treasure to their Church/Gods, everything was ok.

It’s all about context in the end, some settings and campaigns a village of goblins is a threat like any other next of monsters to be wealth with. Others it’s a place where relatively innocent people live with an entirely different story and plot to explore. I’m betting in that game it was certainly the first.

[Snails]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.

The is a sharp insight. Unfortunately, I doubt Redcloak fully understands the implications of his actual desires and goals. True equality would be all creatures of type Humanoid, especially goblins, being PC races that live in cities. But Redcloak is grasping onto Goblotopia, for sounds reasons, and wants something more, too. I doubt he sees that the "something more" has deep implications, that may include giving up Goblotopia in the long run.

It turns out that the Real World and WotC have caught up to the central moral vision of this comic. Because to truly scrub D&D material of certain controversial elements will IMNSHO require a revamp of all Humanoids to be on a more equal footing.

[Cirin]

I think the problem with Durkon's "three paths" summary (as concise as it was) is that it incentivizes Redcloak to attack Durkon.

In Redcloak's eyes, Option #1 is bad for goblins, but much less likely if Durkon is dead. Option #2 is potentially good and also much easier is Durkon is dead. Option #3 may be the best option, but doesn't require Durkon, so Redcloak may as well hedge his bets and kill Durkon.

I could see Redcloak ending up convinced by Durkon but still attacking him as a practical course of action.

Yeah, I think Durkon didn't explain well enough why Option #2 is Very Bad for him.

Redcloak probably thinks that in the next world, The Dark One will get an equal chance to remake the world alongside the other Gods. I vaguely remember that was mentioned at some point, that he figured there was a chance that The Plan could destroy the world, but at least it would mean the next world would have The Dark One there at the creation to advocate for Goblins.

The fact that TDO is unlikely to survive to the next world because he won't have enough divine power to last until the Snarl calms down and they can return to the material plane to make a world is a fact that Durkon forgot to mention. . .and one that we don't know if Redcloak would even believe it if it was.

[LadyEowyn]

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

And this was before they got their current island, which they have now, and have already begun settling. It just doesn't make any sense to force two civilizations to pack up and move out, leaving one homeless and an established island abandoned, when you could just leave both of them as they are and be fine.

They could certainly arrange for Gobbotopia to release their ensalved human populations and let any resistance members leave the city peacefully, maybe return items and furniture to the families that originally owned them, but i don't see why the land would need to be given up. Do the Azurites even have the numbers needed to populate a city like that any more?
I agree with all of this.

[Euclidodese]

Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.I would bet any money in the world (other than my money, I'm confident, I'm not an idiot) that Gobbotopia will remain at the end of this comic strip.

Can you imagine what a downer the Azurites reconquoring their city would be? Goblin children crying in terror as they flee the only home they've ever known. And then what if the Azurite civilians don't want to go back? What if they don't want to pack up their lives, their young children, their farms and businesses and trapse across the world so that they can live in a twice-conquored mess of a city. Sure, some will feel happy to walk the same streets and look up at the same mountains that their great-great grandfathers did, but others just won't care. The past is the past.

Not to mention that the reconquoring itself will cost a huge number of lives, both Goblin and Azurite, and would possibly leave the Azurites with fewer allies and a reputation for violence.

Gobbotopia has a dark past, but a bright future, like {scrubbed}. And it's been welcomed into the loving arms of the international community of nations. Redcloak's plan has already succeeded, he's just too arrogant to realise it, which is beautiful.

{scrubbed} .

It's the same with any country which sits on 'stolen' land, you can't change the past, and 'liberating' this land just means someone else invading it and another group getting kicked out.

[dragonjek]

Hm. I'm getting a feeling like this part will end in one of two ways:
1.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak and the Dark One agree to stop... right as Xykon either finds the gate, or walks in on them to announce he found the gate.
2.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak agrees to stop... but when he contacts the Dark One, the god is too mad that things are over so "easily" and wants more.

And there's still the possibility of
3.): The OotS act like an adventuring party and manage to ruin the entire thing on the verge of success.

[LadyEowyn]

Hm. I'm getting a feeling like this part will end in one of two ways:
1.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak and the Dark One agree to stop... right as Xykon either finds the gate, or walks in on them to announce he found the gate.
2.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak agrees to stop... but when he contacts the Dark One, the god is too mad that things are over so "easily" and wants more.

And there's still the possibility of
3.): The OotS act like an adventuring party and manage to ruin the entire thing on the verge of success.
Not to mention the option of “the other gods refuse Redcloak’s demands”. Thor doesn’t really have a lot of support from the rest of them.

I think Xykon would be at a disadvantage against the combination of the Order, Redcloak, and MITD. And while he’s a serious threat in his own right, he can’t make any use of the Gate without Redcloak.

[Ezekiel]

To be honest, I kind of like Hobgobbostan :smallbiggrin:

[SlashDash]

I think I'd still prefer living my life in dangerous mine work than living my life being hunted by another species for xp, tbh.
It's not being in a mine that's the issue with dwarves. Remember the whole point of the last book? It's the whole "die without honor and go to Hel" schtick.

Seriously 5 people just died in a gas leak accident and had to suffer for all of eternity if Sigdi hadn't randomly been there to save their souls...




That dialog was fantastic. Love the exchange.

I have to say, I'm with Redcloak on this one. Gobtoppia stays put. Hinjo already settled down in a new land.

Besides, they deserve some form of restitution. I could see an agreement that at the very least, Redcloak has to release all the human slaves they have but keep the lands.

[dancrilis]

Nice strip - still unsure how much of Redcloaks concerns are legitimate and how much are him buying the propaganda though.

[Baelzar]

This can't last. Expect either the party to swoop in to "save" Durkon, Xykon walking in to crash the little tea time....or both.

[Fyraltari]

YES!!

IT’S TIME!!

Also, confirmation that Redcloak’s demands really are for equality, not world conquest.
Heh, I'll believe it when he actually stands down after getting a fair share.
There's also the question of how exactly "what Redcloak wants" and "what the Dark One wants" overlap.


Also, it's neat that Redcloak basically confirms that Orcs are just socially accepted in the world, with a very different dynamic than you'd see in other settings. There might have been confirmation about that elsewhere, but I think for the most part we've only seen Half-Orcs treated casually.
On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.

They’re lucky it’s a pre-internet society, or they’d all be living in Gobby McGobface by now!
Hahahaha! True.

[Iakus]

I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...

[Dragonus45]

The is a sharp insight. Unfortunately, I doubt Redcloak fully understands the implications of his actual desires and goals. True equality would be all creatures of type Humanoid, especially goblins, being PC races that live in cities. But Redcloak is grasping onto Goblotopia, for sounds reasons, and wants something more, too. I doubt he sees that the "something more" has deep implications, that may include giving up Goblotopia in the long run.

It turns out that the Real World and WotC have caught up to the central moral vision of this comic. Because to truly scrub D&D material of certain controversial elements will IMNSHO require a revamp of all Humanoids to be on a more equal footing.

I had been thinking the single best thing he could do might be to willingly surrender Azure city for a vow from the paladins of the Sapphire Guard alongside the leadership of Azure City to be Gobotopia's allies and defend them from other nations so long as it is just. As we have seen they thoroughly keep to their word and it could create some staunch allies and advocates almost literally forever. The idea of bargaining goblin souls into other gods pockets never occurred to me, although the TDO would never agree to that so its probably off the table entirely and forever. Much like how my plan would never work, because due to his personal history with the guard and his "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" mindset he probably could never actually agree to anything that ever concedes the city.

[Spoomeister]

I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...

No such thing as watching too much B5, consider where we are. :)

[NobleCuriosity]

On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.

Yeah, Orcs are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but all that stuff. Therkla also had to put up with several racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”



It's not being in a mine that's the issue with dwarves. Remember the whole point of the last book? It's the whole "die without honor and go to Hel" schtick.

Seriously 5 people just died in a gas leak accident and had to suffer for all of eternity if Sigdi hadn't randomly been there to save their souls...


That is an amazing point that ups my respect for Durkon just "Uh-huh"ing that jab even more.

[Lord Torath]

How did Hobgobstan lose?Easy! It was never even an option! Hobgobbostan, on the other hand... :smallbiggrin:

[Dragonus45]

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

And this was before they got their current island, which they have now, and have already begun settling. It just doesn't make any sense to force two civilizations to pack up and move out, leaving one homeless and an established island abandoned, when you could just leave both of them as they are and be fine.

They could certainly arrange for Gobbotopia to release their ensalved human populations and let any resistance members leave the city peacefully, maybe return items and furniture to the families that originally owned them, but i don't see why the land would need to be given up. Do the Azurites even have the numbers needed to populate a city like that any more?

They don't have military allies, at the moment. but they have plenty of nations sympathetic to them and happy to trade with them and assist their efforts to rebuild or harass the goblins. As shown by the Elven strike squad assisting the resistance. And why wouldn't it make sense for people to want to regain their stolen homeland and free their enslaved kinsman to take vengeance on the people who conquered them? Sure it's probably not the best idea overall but it is a reasonable one. And yes they could still populate the city... unless the goblins got a lot more into the whole genocide thing on their captured slaves and started hunting down all the escaping refugees they could find then I thought they did. In which case all bets are off anyways and I don't even want to pretend to hear arguments about them having a moral let to stand on keeping the place.


It's not being in a mine that's the issue with dwarves.


Sure it is, it's easy to point at dwarves and say they had it easy with all that baren rocky mountainous terrain they live in by saying they have a lot of natural resources anyways. When you forget that even for a race with natural inbuilt advantages mining is difficult, dangerous, deadly, work and not living life easy mode at all.

[Spoomeister]

It's remarkable to me that this part of the years-in-the-making story came along, just as questions similar to what One-Eye and Durkon are debating are coming up in the real world re: D&D.

Fantastic bit of timing there, and OOTS/Rich has been talking about aspects of this for years so Rich definitely has some street cred backing him up.

Like others have said here, now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Redcloak and Durkon are gonna get interrupted just as they start to get somewhere, by someone pretty soon, I'm betting.

[Schroeswald]

It turns out that the Real World and WotC have caught up to the central moral vision of this comic. Because to truly scrub D&D material of certain controversial elements will IMNSHO require a revamp of all Humanoids to be on a more equal footing.

Yeah, as I saw the conversation around these ideas start up recently I remembered how Rich has been talking about this for 13 years and just now, finally, is it becoming a topic of conversation that is, maybe not mainstream but in a stream beyond OOTS.

[t209]

Like the strip, seems that Rich might have glanced my discussion about “what about Orcs, Lizardfolks, Kobolds, and non Goblin races who doesn’t seem to have animosity or grudges against PC races?”.
Aka Goblins being short end even by monster standards.

Yeah, as I saw the conversation around these ideas start up recently I remembered how Rich has been talking about this for 13 years and just now, finally, is it becoming a topic of conversation that is, maybe not mainstream but in a stream beyond OOTS.
Same with my RP group too, which the DM wanted to make “monster races” as propaganda by civilized races for his campaign setting.
Part of me lean more on “Late Antiquity Germans and Romans” relations (like some tribes as enemies but some tribes as Roman vassals).

[Malfarian]

One of the best strips in years!

Just wonderful, thank you!

[mjasghar]

The portrayal of orcs has varied a lot in d&d
Initially almost human like which allowed half orcs as a viable race. Then they started drawing them as much more monstrous - either with oversized heads and/or hunched over and over muscled. Their colour was also turned to explicitly green as opposed to the more brown yellow.
And then there’s the issue that half orcs and other such half humanoid (as opposed to half elf or dwarf etc) unions were usually insinuated as being due to rape of female humans.

[t209]

And then there’s the issue that half orcs and other such half humanoid (as opposed to half elf or dwarf etc) unions were usually insinuated as being due to rape of female humans.
*cough* Tanis Half-Elven from Dragonlance, at least before retcon.

[WindStruck]

This really makes me wonder something... All the gods created goblins just to be abused and have a hard life?

Goblins had no gods to worship, protect, or guide them before the Dark One?

I think this has to be false... I'm not certain, but I am starting to suspect a dark theme with some evil gods goblins may have worshipped before. More souls = more power and sustenance right? So the evil gods goblins worshiped probably just engineered them into leading violent, short lives all for the sake of garnering more souls.

[mjasghar]

There’s the whole elves and racial depictions in fantasy as well
Shadowrun and earthdawn were the leaders in breaking that - ironically because their elves weren’t actually elves

[Yuki Akuma]

Uh... why wouldn't he?

It's been specifically stated in comic that Thor has seen gods with much more support and time to gain power that didn't survive the time spent waiting for the Snarl to calm down so they could build a new world.

The TDO is gonna starve if the gods destroy the world.

[Fyraltari]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.
That's not how ot works. Gods take the souls of their followers (barring the whole Hel/dwarf situation), unaffiliated people like the greenhilts go to the afterlives that matches their alignment. Prior to the Dark One's apotheosis al goblins went to their alignment's plane, now some of them go to him. There is evidence either in-comic or in rich's commets that I know about that points toward a god refusing the soul of a goblin that would have decided to worship them.

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.
Allies willing to take on Xykon. The hobgoblin army on its own might be a different story.


I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...
That's not fair, Morden and Durkon are nothing alike! One has deicded to surrender their free will to be the mouthpiece of million-year old inhuman creatures with mysterious powers and mindset and th other is a human working for the Shadows.


However, I don’t think what we’ve seen supports that Orcs are fully socially accepted. They are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but Therkla had to put up with a lot of racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”


On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.Yeah, Orcs are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but all that stuff. Therkla also had to put up with several racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”


Did you just ctrl+C/Ctrl+V your comment? :smallconfused:

[Xlsfd]

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040.

[understatement]

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040.

Cure Wounds hurt the undead, and in #1041 Redcloak heals him with an Inflict.

Also, Xykon mentions spending hours making magical items in Azure City.


This really makes me wonder something... All the gods created goblins just to be abused and have a hard life?

Goblins had no gods to worship, protect, or guide them before the Dark One?

I think this has to be false... I'm not certain, but I am starting to suspect a dark theme with some evil gods goblins may have worshipped before. More souls = more power and sustenance right? So the evil gods goblins worshiped probably just engineered them into leading violent, short lives all for the sake of garnering more souls.

The goblins didn't worship anyone before the Dark One. I can 99% swear that the Giant has stated this, but I'm not sure where I could find the quote.

[Zombimode]

Like the strip, seems that Rich might have glanced my discussion about “what about Orcs, Lizardfolks, Kobolds, and non Goblin races who doesn’t seem to have animosity or grudges against PC races?”.
Aka Goblins being short end even by monster standards.

Well, that is certainly one conclusion one could draw.
Another one would be that maybe the "non-PC races were just created to be XP fodder" narrative is not entirely correct.

[Dausuul]

I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...
Rich is a huge Babylon 5 fan, you know. In fact, that's where "Giant in the Playground" comes from (it's a reference to a quote from Sheridan about the Vorlons and the Shadows).

So I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional in some way. Though it's not easy to draw a line between Durkon and Morden. (Edit: And while I was writing this post, Fyaltari went and did it.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Wonder how this goes south. If it goes anywhere it has to go south, since they are at the North Pole. So the answer is: it has to go south. :smallbiggrin:

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?
I don't think so. Redcloak is a PC, or at least an NPC build like a PC, and he levels up over time.

I agree, 'tis very catchy. "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins" would be referred to as GRoG. :smallwink: As an old Navy man and all around fan of pirates in my adventure stories, I approve. :smallsmile:

That reminds me, has Rich ever announced plans to do any material on 5th edition? Banana can confirm this, but he has already indicated that he won't.

I had been thinking the single best thing he could do might be to willingly surrender Azure city for a vow from the paladins of the Sapphire Guard alongside the leadership of Azure City to be Gobotopia's allies and defend them from other nations so long as it is just. Not seeing that as viable. The Goblins and Hobgoblins won that city/land fair and square, and Hinjo is starting a new kingdom across the sea. I see no reason for that offer to be considered.

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040. Ooh, nice catch.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

Nah, they just print PHB 4 or whatever the next number would be.

[Fyraltari]

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040.
Xykon still has Dorukan's circlet of Cloister so I would say yes. Even if he hadn't anyway, he's had ample poortunity to make another, just in case.


The goblins didn't worship anyone before the Dark One. I can 99% swear that the Giant has stated this, but I'm not sure where I could find the quote.
To the rescue!


The goblins[...] worshipped no one before the Dark One.



So I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional in some way. Though it's not easy to draw a line between Durkon and Morden. (Edit: And while I was writing this post, Fyaltari went and did it.)
It just takes a mountain of bad faith! Also, Fyraltari.

[Windscion]

... it's not easy to draw a line between Durkon and Morden.
Really, it should be draw a line between Thor and the Vorlons, or between TDO and the Shadows.
Wait, does that mean Roy is Sheridan?

Hmm V would be Delenn (who, in the first draft, changed gender at same time as race).
Haley would be Ivanova.
Belkar could any of many people, maybe Garibaldi, maybe G'Kar.
Elan would be Vir Cotto.

[thereaper]

This is going far too well. Something has to go very, very wrong soon.

[Dragonus45]

Not seeing that as viable. The Goblins and Hobgoblins won that city/land fair and square, and Hinjo is starting a new kingdom across the sea. I see no reason for that offer to be considered.

Because conquered peoples don’t tend to just roll over and give up what’s theirs without a fight, Hinjo’s know kingdom has explicit intentions to retake the city, and the likely aren’t going to stop trying ever. Also with Red Cloak and X gone they have a real chance at success.

[deltamire]

As luck would have it, the page that was so desperately needed a couple weeks back to act as proof for both sides of an argument on a discussion thread pops up! Really good comic. Love that jab from Redcloak regarding riches and specifically jewels - anyone else would have blown up at that, from what we've seen about Durkon's background and lifestyle, but Durkon does what's needed to be done.

I keep faffing on about the art these days, but I was re-reading some DSTP strips a couple of days ago and I just love how much more of the body language and movement of the characters can been shown through the UD and further on artstyle. Durkon using 3 of his 6 fingers to count, Redcloak slamming his hands down on the table, his balled fist when talking . . . 'tis good, folks.

[KorvinStarmast]

Because conquered peoples don’t tend to just roll over and give up what’s theirs without a fight, Hinjo’s know kingdom has explicit intentions to retake the city, and the likely aren’t going to stop trying ever. Also with Red Cloak and X gone they have a real chance at success.
It's gonna take him a generation to rebuild an army, at the very least. The correct position for the Goblins to take is "you want it back, come and (try to) take it." And to be prepared for war/invasion.

[Wildstag]

On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.


Yeah, Orcs are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but all that stuff. Therkla also had to put up with several racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”

Ah yes, the print-only stories, the natural enemy to online-only reader's arguments; the "need to have disposable money" barrier to entry in discussions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah yes, the print-only stories, the natural enemy to online-only reader's arguments; the "need to have disposable money" barrier to entry in discussions.
Rich tries to compress entire arcs from prequels into a few strips now and again ... such as this one. (I mentioned that in my first post in this thread). See also the compression of Durkon getting thrown out of Dwarfland in UD - it had a couple of strips in Origin of the PCs, another prequel.

Honestly, as I see it, brevity doesn't get the story across as well as the extended narrative in the optional material does.

[Wildstag]

Which is why Rich tries to compress entire arcs from prequels into a few strips now and again ... such as this one. (Also the compression of Durkon getting thrown out of Dwarfland in UD had a couple of strips in Origin of the PCs).

Honestly, brevity doesn't always get the story across as the extended narrative in the optional material does.

Except it clearly doesn't work as well here, since it comes off more as "orcs are basically treated as equal" as opposed to "They're just not killed on sight" as print-story readers are indicating.

And sure, that could just be argued away as "Redcloak's bias towards those setting details", but it's not a great argument. The Durkon bit works well enough as is, just because it doesn't seem to me like the portrayal in the webcomic runs counter to the information provided in print-only stories.

[Anansiil]

R: We want equality
D: ... Can you be a bit more specific?
R: More specific than equality?

*screams/cries out in minority*

[KorvinStarmast]

Except it clearly doesn't work as well here, since it comes off more as "orcs are basically treated as equal" as opposed to "They're just not killed on sight" as print-story readers are indicating. Not gonna disagree. A lot is lost in the 'brevity' version.


The Durkon bit works well enough as is, just because it doesn't seem to me like the portrayal in the webcomic runs counter to the information provided in print-only stories. To be fair, it only lasted a few strips in OoTPCs, while Redcloak's back story stuff takes more material than that. I might have picked a poor example there.

[Psyren]

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040.

Excluding him from that spell doesn't prove anything one way or another - even if X still has the ring, it would just mean the spell wouldn't do anything, so there's no reason to include him in it either way.



Not seeing that as viable. The Goblins and Hobgoblins won that city/land fair and square, and Hinjo is starting a new kingdom across the sea. I see no reason for that offer to be considered.

Yeah, if the Twelve have any sense they'll cut their losses and cede Gobbotopia. The other gods can pay for their complicity in making a sapient race only to oppress it by having their nations collectively absorb/support the remaining Azurites. But Durkon should abandon the "what about Azure City" line of inquiry immediately, that city is gone.

[Rockphed]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

Having been on the receiving end of "you are a [blank] and led a privileged life, you wouldn't understand" a few times, it is both one of the best ways to completely negate someone's participation in your discussion and to ensure that they are your enemy forever. I suspect that Durkon is one of the few people who can nevertheless continue to negotiate. I also expect him at some point to have Elan show Red Cloak just how wrong about Durkon's life he is. Which is not to say that Red Cloak is wrong that Durkon's life was easier (since Durkon didn't watch his entire family get slaughtered in front of him), just that Red Cloak doesn't understand everything that went in to Durkon getting to where he is and might be singing a different tune if he did.


good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

I think what Red Cloak wants is for Azure City to be told "too bad, you can't take it back even if you are able."

[Anansiil]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

You must be careful with a statement like that. Red Cloak is speaking for Goblins and thus Durkon is speaking for Dwarfs.
Red Cloak is as much an individual as Durkon is an individual, each with a life and identity.

I don't know if you've read Start of Darkness, but if not, you are missing a crucial point that I will not spoil for you :)

[Snails]

This is going far too well. Something has to go very, very wrong soon.

Probably.

But we can already see a proverbial cliff looming up. Redcloak wants Goblotopia and guarantees for both Goblotopia and goblins in general. (I believe that is actually a very reasonable position, but my opinion does not matter here.)

Either Durkon agrees or he does not.

If Durkon agrees, then what? Durkon cannot make any guarantees. Thor cannot make any guarantees. Or, if they can, it requires certain negotiations. So this ends with Redcloak seeing him off with a "Get back to me when both Hinjo and Thor sign the contract in blood." And then the battle with the Order will begin within a few days.

If Durkon does not agree, then what? That is even less auspicious.

Redcloak is not going to pause his plan without something concrete. At the very minimum, he will need to perceive Goblotopia slightly better off than he sees the situation now.

That Redcloak does not understand the danger to TDO is unfortunate. But providing information that presumably TDO cannot confirm will look like a gambit, and not an honest point. Even if Redcloak perceives Durkon himself as entirely honest, Durkon may be manipulated by his gods with a fairy tale.

[EmperorSarda]

Rich is a huge Babylon 5 fan, you know. In fact, that's where "Giant in the Playground" comes from (it's a reference to a quote from Sheridan about the Vorlons and the Shadows).


Huh. I always thought it was an Ender's Game reference.

[Windscion]

RC is correct. Going on a killing rampage pissed off the human/elves/dwarves/&c, but that's how they got a god, as well as how they got a metropolis.
Also, the approach the RC is taking is inherently noble. Much like the golems of Discworld, he wants them to bootstrap themselves to parity. Durkon is equally correct that parity can take many forms.
Fascinating to see where this goes. I mean, of course south. But as noted, they're at the north pole. Every direction is south.

[Iakus]

That's not fair, Morden and Durkon are nothing alike! One has deicded to surrender their free will to be the mouthpiece of million-year old inhuman creatures with mysterious powers and mindset and th other is a human working for the Shadows.


Don't forget "Sometimes blows up planets that are considered beyond hope" ;)

[strider72]

Quick, Durkon, mention his god won't make it!

YES! This is bugging the heck out of me. "Oh, by the way, Thor says The Dark One is probably not powerful enough to survive the destruction of the universe. So something to consider as you contemplate letting the other Gods blow it all up."

[Dragonus45]

R: We want equality
D: ... Can you be a bit more specific?
R: More specific than equality?

*screams/cries out in minority*

I mean, it's an excellent end goal but Durkon is also right. Both sides need to work out the specific definition and goals outside to work together and negotiate outside of the nice platitudes.

[Lord Torath]

This really makes me wonder something... All the gods created goblins just to be abused and have a hard life?

Goblins had no gods to worship, protect, or guide them before the Dark One?

I think this has to be false... I'm not certain, but I am starting to suspect a dark theme with some evil gods goblins may have worshipped before. More souls = more power and sustenance right? So the evil gods goblins worshiped probably just engineered them into leading violent, short lives all for the sake of garnering more souls.This kind of puts The Dark One's version of the creation of the Goblin races in doubt. If this had been the second world, TDO's version might be more believable. But the gods have had hundreds of thousands - possibly millions or billions - of worlds to practice on before. Is this really the first one where they realized their clerics couldn't do anything but make Good Berries unless they created a bunch of XP-fodder races?After all, TDO did not exist when the goblin races were created. How much can we trust Red Cloak's retelling of TDO's retelling of events neither of them witnessed first-hand?

[Windscion]

Dragonus45: I am unclear why teeth (dentition) are relevant to these negotiations.
LT:
Druids make goodberries. Or clerics w/ certain domains.

But yeah, we don't really know where TDO got the information that goblinoids are scrub races. The impression I get is that it was no big secret among the gods, and he picked it up in casual discussion. Until told otherwise, I am assuming that most of the facts in the crayons strips are correct, simply because they are hard to verify. If the author is tricking us, so be it. We will learn more when he reveals the twist.

[Corseth]

As others, now I'm also waiting for the outside factor to crash this party! I know it's kind of meta-thinking, that, because it's going well, something bad HAS to happen, as Durkon and Redcloak are handling the talking quite well.

Redcloak and Durkon are handling things pretty well. Sure, some things have been said and some things that could have been made more clear haven't been... but they're both giving each other a chance to talk and a chance to explain their meaning. If these two characters continue to behave like this they'll work out a solution.

Which leads me to be expecting an interruption any minute now because "that just doesn't happen", hah. Xykon wandering in or the party coming in swords-swinging both come to mind.

At the same time... I almost want to see two characters from completely opposite sides who have oft been the "reasonable ones" actually demonstrate that and come to a shared solution to a problem via talking.... yet, so much of my instincts on "where stories tend to go" says something "has" to happen to stop that...!

What I'm also curious about is which is more important to Redcloak: the status of Goblinkind, or the status of Dark One. Right now he sees them both as the same thing (and they may well actually be, given the Dark One is a god for and by Goblinkind)... but Dwarves don't "need" Thor specifically, for instance. I kinda wonder which way he'd swing if those interests become different - he's very much interested in bettering Goblins but he's also the high cleric of his god. Like, what if hypothetically Redcloak and Durkon come to some terms which work out quite well for the Goblins... but the Dark One rejects them? Durkon after all probably has a better idea of what Thor would find acceptable here than Redcloak does for the Dark One, given the prior page.

[kiapet]

Durkon and Redcloak are actually having a genuine, well-reasoned discussion. I'm wondering what's going to go wrong because right now they seem like they should be able to come to a compromise.

[isamaru]

Awesome fantasy material. Fortunately we don't have unjust gods meddling in our world so we don't have these kinds of issues :smallcool:

But really, what a fantastic strip! :) Thank you, Giant!

[Corseth]

I mean, it's an excellent end goal but Durkon is also right. Both sides need to work out the specific dentition and goals outside to work together and negotiate outside of the nice platitudes.

And importantly, Durkon didn't use it as a chance to "stop listening". He didn't just say "be more specific... NEXT TIME!" and walk away from the table; instead he's staying there and actively helping figure out what the 'more specific' actually means to Redcloak, rather than using it as a way to deny the validity of Redcloak's needs.

[mucat]

Redcloak: "You wouldn't be sitting at this table if I hadn't conquered Azure City."

Durkon: "I might. I made this table. How d'ye know I don't sit here all t'time?"

[Anansiil]

ItÂ’s all about context in the end, some settings and campaigns a village of goblins is a threat like any other next of monsters to be wealth with. Others itÂ’s a place where relatively innocent people live with an entirely different story and plot to explore. IÂ’m betting in that game it was certainly the first.

Except that it's perception more than context, at least for the PCs. Red Cloak's argument stands regardless, because either way, they goblins are exterminated, the only thing that might save them is the perception of the PC races. Goblin lives depend of the perceptions of others is what Red Cloak is arguing. There isn't a equivalent scenario when you would consider if it is OK to wipe out a human city/village. Even if the leader was evil, 'maybe there are good people oppressed by the evil leader' is the way it usually goes.


Except it clearly doesn't work as well here, since it comes off more as "orcs are basically treated as equal" as opposed to "They're just not killed on sight" as print-story readers are indicating.

And sure, that could just be argued away as "Redcloak's bias towards those setting details", but it's not a great argument. The Durkon bit works well enough as is, just because it doesn't seem to me like the portrayal in the webcomic runs counter to the information provided in print-only stories.
Red Cloak is not serious about Orc's being seen as remotely equal. He's actually saying that Orcs are 'accepted' because they are useful. Human history has done the same with racism for centuries. People you can have kids with are 'more acceptable' than those you cannot... and I won't go into the horrid details of how that has played out... but if you look at genetic studies of Y chromosomes and admixture, you'll see how separation/segregation made temporary exceptions that resulted in children.


Having been on the receiving end of "you are a [blank] and led a privileged life, you wouldn't understand" a few times, it is both one of the best ways to completely negate someone's participation in your discussion and to ensure that they are your enemy forever. I suspect that Durkon is one of the few people who can nevertheless continue to negotiate. I also expect him at some point to have Elan show Red Cloak just how wrong about Durkon's life he is. Which is not to say that Red Cloak is wrong that Durkon's life was easier (since Durkon didn't watch his entire family get slaughtered in front of him), just that Red Cloak doesn't understand everything that went in to Durkon getting to where he is and might be singing a different tune if he did."

The danger here is this: Person A says "I have suffered in ways that you have not"
Person B says "You don't know me, I have suffered too"

The problem is that Person A *Never* said that Person B "never suffered", just that Person B did not suffer the ways Person A suffered.
Person B is turning it into a suffering competition (regardless of the intentions of Person A).

Person A could have meant "I suffered in ways that you have not, please understand how you were privileged not to suffer those injustices." or Person A could have been hurt and meant "I suffered in ways that you have not, and you're lucky to not have had to". Either way, there is no statement or indication or hint that Person A thinks that Person B has never suffered.

Saying "you wouldn't understand" feeds your point and does not work to fix anything. "You wouldn't understand" can often come from the above, attempts to compete and prove that they have suffered too, which often comes off as my suffering counts as much as your suffering, so why are you complaining...

At the end of it, people from disadvantaged backgrounds have THAT particular suffering AND can also have their individual suffering on top of that. They are additive, not exclusive. That's why terms like privilege exist, because while Durkon suffered as much as he has, if Durkon had the same life AND was a Goblin, it would have actually have been harder than having Durkon's life as a Dwarf. (PC's can't kill a dwarf for XP, just because, so what would have an exiled goblin have done, and how hard would it have been to be a cleric and join a party?)

Understanding someone's struggles is important, but try not to compare and equivocate or if you do, remember that suffering is additive and distinct; people will appreciate you more and won't have to worry about trying to justify and compare their suffering to someone else's suffering.

(I love how deep Rich's writing gets!!!)
*edited a wrong word out

[deltamire]

I made this table. How d'ye know I don't sit here all t'time?
Discussion on Macebook (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), removed after nearly 2000 messages of raw vitriol including both not limited to curses (both swearing and the magical kind), multiple separate theological arguments and an awful lot of general tomfoolery, entitled: If the same cleric uses mould stone to create the same exact size and form of table that is physically identical, made of the same exact stone make-up but in a completely different place, is it the same table?

[Onyavar]

And a great understanding was had!

I think this meeting is going reasonably well, from both Durkon's and Redcloak's end.

The only issue might that might complicate matters now is Xykon. I wonder if he comes up by himself in person and how Durkon and Redcloak will react.

Now, this scene here is the perfect cue for a cutaway to Gobbotopia where we witness the cruel opressive regime of Jirix who has by now slaughtered all non-Hobgoblins in the city, and also started to cut down on Hobbo dissidents as well who are now filling the "our city prison". Also, right before a coalition army of Southerner (demi+)humans arrives.

Or to the contrary, a united officially good Gobbotopia, which is a bit harder to imagine.

[silversaraph]

I hope that when it comes time to negotiate more specifics, O'chul is called up. I would pay good gp to watch he and Redcloak reconcile and engage in constructive diaologue. "You helped murder innocent goblins!" "Yes, well, as a result, I have it on good record that I was waterboarded every Thursday".

[Psyren]

I hope that when it comes time to negotiate more specifics, O'chul is called up. I would pay good gp to watch he and Redcloak reconcile and engage in constructive diaologue. "You helped murder innocent goblins!" "Yes, well, as a result, I have it on good record that I was waterboarded every Thursday".

Yes, both sides have done horrible things. The only way forward is for them both to stop, immediately. No giving/taking back Azure City, no conquering further human nations, no Plan, no more XP grinding goblins to level up other humanoids, just stop.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9o4BEziI

[Fyraltari]

When it comes to the Azurite giving up their claim ont heir ancestral lands (and changing their name I guess?) and definitely settling their tropical paradise islands, I can see Hinjo and the other named characters begrudgingly accepting it for the greater good and to end the bloodshed (provided the slaves are liberated and Xykon killed), but the other nobles (who control most of the remaining military forces) certainly won’t give up without a (perhaps metaphorical) fight.

Edit: Niu will probably insist that Redcloak be punished as well if he isn’t dead by the point the Azurite are brought in, too.

[RblDiver]

Worst case? Goblins cease to exist and all the Gods' efforts go to naught -- again, and possibly forever. RC may have his blind spots, but he's the one needing to be brought to the table, and all the cards are in his hands, because regardless of RC's issues, goblins at large are in a great position to go all Ahab on the gods.

Wrong. Sure, the gods would love to break the cycle, but remember, they are nothing if not persistent. As a matter of convenience, he has a decent amount of leverage, but if he pushes them too hard, well, then he and his god are gone forever, and the others just wait another million cycles for a new color to appear in the crayon box.

[Psychronia]

This is nice.

I mean, the negotiation isn't going perfectly, but considering where it could've gone, this is going very well. Durkon and Redcloak's world views and personalities are clashing a bit, but luckily Durkon's a patient man and Redcloak has a lot to vent to anyone willing to listen.

We're also starting to see Redcloak's...bias? Hypocrisy? We're seeing his ideals start to tear by seams as he actually feels and what he's saying start contradicting each other. Luckily, he's not just a teen that didn't grow up, he's a nerd who believes in rationale and logic, so he won't act on impulse alone.

[Dragonus45]

Except that it's perception more than context, at least for the PCs. Red Cloak's argument stands regardless, because either way, they goblins are exterminated, the only thing that might save them is the perception of the PC races. Goblin lives depend of the perceptions of others is what Red Cloak is arguing. There isn't a equivalent scenario when you would consider if it is OK to wipe out a human city/village. Even if the leader was evil, 'maybe there are good people oppressed by the evil leader' is the way it usually goes.


No I meant exactly what I said, context. Because sometimes when I’m running a game that isn’t about about complex issues like those, or like the ones brought in OOTS, the goblins a really are just all dumb evil creatures who’s lives bring no value to the world so my party can go do political intrigue or punch out mind flayers elsewhere. Not all fictional monstrous races or demihumans or goblinoids are created equal across all campaigns.




The danger here is this: Person A says "I have suffered in ways that you have not"
Person B says "You don't know me, I have suffered too"

The problem is that Person A *Never* said that Person B "never suffered", just that Person B did not suffer the ways Person A suffered.
Person B is turning it into a suffering competition (regardless of the intentions of Person A).


Sure sometimes, but more often then not in my experience it's framed as the "You don't know what its like to suffer X, and even if you did you still probably had an easier time of it then I did." kind of deal totally erasing who I am as a person.

[Rockphed]

The danger here is this: Person A says "I have suffered in ways that you have not"
Person B says "You don't know me, I have suffered too"

The problem is that Person A *Never* said that Person B "never suffered", just that Person B did not suffer the ways Person A suffered.
Person B is turning it into a suffering competition (regardless of the intentions of Person A).

The way what I was alluding to is normally thrown around the implication is, just as with Red Cloak, that Person B has never suffered. Saying "I suffered thus" is a good way to build your pathos. Saying "you [member of outgroup] haven't suffered" only undermines their pathos. Or is it ethos? The sides of the rhetorical triangle elude me.

[Syncrogti]

Is the comic not still based on 3.5e? If so, are the stats on the d20srd not the official stats? Those list the following:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Thank you so much, not sure how I missed it.

Looking at the numbers, I don't think the darkvision makes up for the -2 stat penalty (-2,+2,-2). Could we give them a favored weapon focus, or a feat that makes them a little tougher to kill? Fort Save bonus perhaps. Just a thought.

[Bartok]

Thank you so much, not sure how I missed it.

Looking at the numbers, I don't think the darkvision makes up for the -2 stat penalty (-2,+2,-2). Could we give them a favored weapon focus, or a feat that makes them a little tougher to kill? Fort Save bonus perhaps. Just a thought.

Getting a 30 ft move at size small was a huge bonus. Remember Halflings, Gnomes, and Dwarves only have a 20 ft move.

[SundaNZ]

Is this all leading up to Goblins being a primary playable race in the next edition of D&D?

[Psyren]

Is the comic not still based on 3.5e? If so, are the stats on the d20srd not the official stats? Those list the following:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Given that OotS Goblins are Medium, we can't be sure the rest of these stats are accurate. For example, the Str penalty comes from their small size, which they no longer have in OotS.

He does seem to have kept the "Hobgoblins are more warlike" cultural aspect though.

[tanonev]

No, look at the very first comic strip! Wouldn't it be a nice bookend to start the comic with upgrading to 3.5, and end it with upgrading to 4(/5/6/whatever it gets called)th edition?

Also, despite the fact that this was clearly planned out years in advance, it's interesting to see the comic swing so much into feeling like commentary on current events, both of the BLM and the "D&D Races have inherent issues discourse" kind.

Where this gets uncomfortable/challenging is that we're in a setting with absolute alignments, and the group rising up against systemic (pun intended) oppression is also the Evil group.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This is probably my favorite strip so far of the book. Lots of excellent points brought up (with of course no relevance outside of the comic) on both sides. I’m glad that Durkon steered the conversation back in a more productive direction, although I agree that he probably could have done well to reveal the fact that outcome 2 would definitely stop the Dark One forever. I also liked the discussion of equality, although Durkon‘s example may have stung a little, with the segue into what the goblins want and Redcloak‘s fairly reasonable demands. Finally, turning to Azure City, it will certainly be interesting to see how the other stakeholders react to what Redcloak wants. I feel I should point out taking it isn’t really what brought Durkon here, that’s mostly just the gates. Finally, Durkon‘s expressions throughout this strip are really what makes it so great.

[svankensen]

I suspect this will go wrong because the gods can't make up their collective minds. Xykon will find out some of this information, but not the whole picture. He will still be interested in casting the ritual, but demands some horrible sacrifice from Redcloak to prove his loyalty. Some other goblin massacre probably. Redcloak has decided to sacrifice goblins for the cause so many times, it is clear he will have to choose to sacrifice himself or others, and he will hopefully choose himself. But the gods need Redcloak, the only priest of the Dark One capable of casting 9th level spells, to seal the Snarl. So it will be a fight to save Redcloak, either from Xykon or himself. I expect the fiends to intervene at a crucial momment, turning Varsavius into an actual enemy. They have said they can't or won't, but I suspect that was to lull Varsavius into a false sense of security.

[Elifia]

Given that OotS Goblins are Medium, we can't be sure the rest of these stats are accurate. For example, the Str penalty comes from their small size, which they no longer have in OotS.

He does seem to have kept the "Hobgoblins are more warlike" cultural aspect though.

True. In this case, I'd remove the "small" part and turn the Str penalty into a bonus. That's pretty much identical to the stats the "oversized goblin" variant has in Pathfinder aka D&D 3.75e, too.

[RedSand]

At some point this comic is going to have to reckon with the idea that not all violence is an equally sinful act.

Redcloak toppling a nation that is part of a literal divine plan to oppress him is not the same thing as if, say, Azure City had decided to wipe out the hobgoblin camp, in the same way that {scrubbed}. The "there are only two kinds of people: those who want peace and those who don't" line ignores the fact that The Lack of Conflict Is Not Peace. Redcloak could absolutely just go start up a village somewhere like the comic often purports he should and wouldn't resolve the fact that the gods themselves have condemned him, his family, his children, his entire community to the face of non-human cannon fodder, grist for the lives of the people who the gods decided were actually important.

Painting Redcloak as ignorant of the struggles that Durkon has gone through is also frankly meaningless within the larger context of the conflict they're embroiled in. Yes, Durkon grew up poor. Durkon also grew up safe and loved in a community that wasn't threatened by every other nation under the sun. Durkon is poor because of his mother's decision to be moral-give Redcloak's mom could be given the same sack of diamonds and y'know what that would give her? A more favorable roll on the treasure table when some fighter is looting her corpse. Durkon has a ****ing racial bonus to attack Redcloak's entire race for {scrubbed} sake. Redcloak assumptions that Durkon grew up in a safer, richer environment then his entire village is correct and the fact that this comic tries to paint that as Redcloak "not understanding Durkon" is hilarious. It's a false equivalency of massive proportions and in the time that this comic is being written it's frankly inexcusable.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak toppling a nation that is part of a literal divine plan to oppress him is not the same thing as if, say, Azure City had decided to wipe out the hobgoblin camp ....


If you accept the word of Redcloak based on the reported word of the Dark One - neither of whom were around when such a plan may or may not have been concocted.


Painting Redcloak as ignorant of the struggles that Durkon has gone through is also frankly meaningless within the larger context of the conflict they're embroiled in.
When the Dwarves die they face an eternity of torment as the default position for them - the world was built that way.
Before the Dark One the goblins went to whereever there alignment took them and now (for those that presumedly worship the Dark One) they go to their gods domain.

There has been no hard evidence (we do have the words of people who may be biased) presented in the comic or the prequel books that show Goblinoids having a harder time then Dwarves - who live one step away from being crushed in a cave-in and sentenced to eternal torment (and less of any evidence of the starting position of any race).

You see to be accepting Redcloak's story - which even Redcloak and his God cannot know for sure - as absolute truth where it might not be.

[Kharannos]

I *LOVE* how Redcloak BELIEVES Gobbotopia is very well without his strict supervision. How he thinks that now that he conquered and gave it to his people, it will prosper, create itself rules, an echonomical system and honest politics.

I'm pretty sure that when he dies, in the end of the book, the last thing he'll see is that not every goblinoid is as thoughtful as he is.

His regret will be his last feeling on this plane.

[Snails]

No I meant exactly what I said, context. Because sometimes when I’m running a game that isn’t about about complex issues like those, or like the ones brought in OOTS, the goblins a really are just all dumb evil creatures who’s lives bring no value to the world so my party can go do political intrigue or punch out mind flayers elsewhere. Not all fictional monstrous races or demihumans or goblinoids are created equal across all campaigns.

My main criticism of The Giant's moral argument is not that it is wrong, but it is not developed to its logical end. There is a place in this genre for fighting Demons, where we understand the bar for choosing violence to resolve the situation is set quite low.

For our games, there should be more clarity about whether these are Demons who are truly impractical to negotiation with because of their goals/values, or People who are never inherently evil but we might reluctantly be forced to destroy due to the political choices of their leaders (e.g. the men who fought under the banner of Sauron), or Beasts that probably will need to be killed but can be safely ignored if only scooted away from civilization.

In this picture, there really should never be Always Evil or similarly statted Humanoids. Gnolls (to cite a real example that WotC agrees should be changed) are either Demons and almost always evil because the nature of their magically powerful blood ties or they are Humanoids who so happen to often worship Demons in a particular region (but some particular tribe of Gnolls could very easily be mostly Neutral or Good).

We should also recognize that this is a little game that JRR Tolkien himself was playing when he created his orcs, and the moral implications of how he wrote them did bother the man.

[Mobius Twist]

Durkon has two cards to in his favor he has yet to play. One is obvious: The Dark One not having sufficient fuel in the tank to get him to the next iteration of the world.

The other I don't see anyone mention: The only goblin city is currently right next to a massive hellmouth leading directly to the Snarl. It's not a controllable gate, and as things inevitably get worse the goblins will have to abandon their bastion. Unless, of course, The Dark One joins forces with other gods to make a four-color seal for all the open tears in reality.

If Goblin-kind are to live in safety, this one is kinda a non-negotiable perk of the whole deal.

[Frozenstep]

At some point this comic is going to have to reckon with the idea that not all violence is an equally sinful act.

Redcloak toppling a nation that is part of a literal divine plan to oppress him is not the same thing as if, say, Azure City had decided to wipe out the hobgoblin camp, in the same way that {scrubbed}. The "there are only two kinds of people: those who want peace and those who don't" line ignores the fact that The Lack of Conflict Is Not Peace. Redcloak could absolutely just go start up a village somewhere like the comic often purports he should and wouldn't resolve the fact that the gods themselves have condemned him, his family, his children, his entire community to the face of non-human cannon fodder, grist for the lives of the people who the gods decided were actually important.

Painting Redcloak as ignorant of the struggles that Durkon has gone through is also frankly meaningless within the larger context of the conflict they're embroiled in. Yes, Durkon grew up poor. Durkon also grew up safe and loved in a community that wasn't threatened by every other nation under the sun. Durkon is poor because of his mother's decision to be moral-give Redcloak's mom could be given the same sack of diamonds and y'know what that would give her? A more favorable roll on the treasure table when some fighter is looting her corpse. Durkon has a ****ing racial bonus to attack Redcloak's entire race for {scrubbed} sake. Redcloak assumptions that Durkon grew up in a safer, richer environment then his entire village is correct and the fact that this comic tries to paint that as Redcloak "not understanding Durkon" is hilarious. It's a false equivalency of massive proportions and in the time that this comic is being written it's frankly inexcusable.

The comic already reckons with violence being an acceptable solution, given the main characters often use it when talking has failed.

Redcloak makes an assumption that Durkon hasn't gone through struggle and hardship at all. While it's true Redcloak has gone through more then Durkon, it was an unneeded attack on his character that doesn't really help explain anything. But...Durkon, and by extension the comic, doesn't treat that as something that invalidates the argument, he takes it and doesn't even comment, and goes on to listen and understand.

[Snails]

[SPOILER=SOD]
There has been no hard evidence (we do have the words of people who may be biased) presented in the comic or the prequel books that show Goblinoids having a harder time then Dwarves - who live one step away from being crushed in a cave-in and sentenced to eternal torment (and less of any evidence of the starting position of any race).

That Thor (and Loki and Hel) screwed over the dwarves is not going to garner much sympathy if Redcloak were informed, for good reason. Not only would it play into his (probable) suspicion that nominally Good gods are manipulative in a creepy kind of way, but it is not clear the Deal was intended to screw over the dwarves in general, even as it screws over some particular dwarves. The status quo seems to support the idea the gods, for the most part, intended to screw over the goblins.

Redcloak having very incomplete information about the status of the dwarves does not diminish his argument. Sub in humans and/or elves and/or halflings and/or gnomes and/or half-orcs and/or tielflings and/or aasimar...

[Peelee]

I *LOVE* how Redcloak BELIEVES Gobbotopia is very well without his strict supervision. How he thinks that now that he conquered and gave it to his people, it will prosper, create itself rules, an echonomical system and honest politics.

I'm pretty sure that when he dies, in the end of the book, the last thing he'll see is that not every goblinoid is as thoughtful as he is.

His regret will be his last feeling on this plane.

Given that most of the inhabitants lived in a settlement that prospered, created itself rules, an economical system, and honest politics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html) (I assume), I don't really think it's that much of a stretch.

Where's the assumption they could not sustain it coming from?

[Ruck]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.

I'm not sure where you're getting this, since he's never said anything like it in the strip and has been pretty explicit about wanting better conditions for Goblins on the Material Plane, not the afterlife.


They don't have military allies, at the moment. but they have plenty of nations sympathetic to them and happy to trade with them and assist their efforts to rebuild or harass the goblins. As shown by the Elven strike squad assisting the resistance. And why wouldn't it make sense for people to want to regain their stolen homeland and free their enslaved kinsman to take vengeance on the people who conquered them? Sure it's probably not the best idea overall but it is a reasonable one. And yes they could still populate the city... unless the goblins got a lot more into the whole genocide thing on their captured slaves and started hunting down all the escaping refugees they could find then I thought they did. In which case all bets are off anyways and I don't even want to pretend to hear arguments about them having a moral let to stand on keeping the place.

The war's over. Azure City lost. Starting another war would be a poor way to open a broader peace settlement.


When it comes to the Azurite giving up their claim ont heir ancestral lands (and changing their name I guess?) and definitely settling their tropical paradise islands, I can see Hinjo and the other named characters begrudgingly accepting it for the greater good and to end the bloodshed (provided the slaves are liberated and Xykon killed), but the other nobles (who control most of the remaining military forces) certainly won’t give up without a (perhaps metaphorical) fight.

Edit: Niu will probably insist that Redcloak be punished as well if he isn’t dead by the point the Azurite are brought in, too.

And similar to the above, I think there's going to be a response along the lines of "tough [censored], but we're trying to save existence" toward any Azurites who demand some kind of retribution.


So, here's how I'm betting things go down:

Durkon and Redcloak hash things out, with a fair amount of sparks flying, but ultimately they work out a deal that is fair to all sides.

Then they discover that neither of their gods will accept the deal they've made: Thor because he can't get the other gods on board, and the Dark One because TDO is not actually a benevolent deity in any sense.

Interesting. Not certain by any means, but a plausible complication for sure.

[dancrilis]

For our games, there should be more clarity about whether these are Demons who are truly impractical to negotiation with because of their goals/values, or People who are never inherently evil ....

Demons are people - they can be reasoned with, form relationships with other creatures etc.


The status quo seems to support the idea the gods, for the most part, intended to screw over the goblins.

Redcloak seems to firmly believe that and it seems likely that it is within the dogma of The Dark One.
But why does it seem that way to you?

[johnbragg]

Have I missed something or has Durkon failed to mention that the Dark One won't survive long enough to be part of the next world building?

That's relevant information, but Durkon is negotiating right now with Redcloak. "There's a new universe born, with The Dark One as an OG god" is not really a win condition for Redcloak.

For Redcloak, the gods resetting the universe means that all of his goblinoids die, here and now.



Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.


Because conquered peoples don’t tend to just roll over and give up what’s theirs without a fight, Hinjo’s know kingdom has explicit intentions to retake the city, and the likely aren’t going to stop trying ever. Also with Red Cloak and X gone they have a real chance at success.

Actually, rhetoric aside, "reconquer the ancestral homeland" is not the norm after you've been displaced. Plenty of peoples got ethnically cleansed at the end of World War II and resettled pretty-much against their will, and none of them are going back. Many of them now could if they wanted to, and they don't. (Not all, obviously).

New Azure City is where it is now, and that's where they're staying.


This really makes me wonder something... All the gods created goblins just to be abused and have a hard life?

Goblins had no gods to worship, protect, or guide them before the Dark One?

I think this has to be false... I'm not certain, but I am starting to suspect a dark theme with some evil gods goblins may have worshipped before. More souls = more power and sustenance right? So the evil gods goblins worshiped probably just engineered them into leading violent, short lives all for the sake of garnering more souls.

No, in the OOTSverse it is canon that this world was created as a D&D kitchen-sink fantasy world, with goblins as XP-fodder for adventurers to sharpen their swords on.

[Peelee]

That's relevant information, but Durkon is negotiating right now with Redcloak. "There's a new universe born, with The Dark One as an OG god" is not really a win condition for Redcloak.

For Redcloak, the gods resetting the universe means that all of his goblinoids die, here and now.

That is absolutely a win condition for Redcloak. It even has a name: "Plan B".

[Zombimode]

Demons are people - they can be reasoned with, form relationships with other creatures etc.

I think you may be missing the point here. Whether or not a particular setting has a class of creatures that are called "demons" that have the qualities you describe is pretty immaterial for the distinction of a class of creatures that are very much not people. In many settings such creatures are called demons so it is a fitting term.



No, in the OOTSverse it is canon that this world was created as a D&D kitchen-sink fantasy world, with goblins as XP-fodder for adventurers to sharpen their swords on.

Can you back that up?

[Sinewmire]

Uuuugh, man this is tense. It feels like the possibility for something really good is slowly tip-toeing across a rickety bridge. I can't help but feel it's gonna collapse into a pit of further conflict, and that threat is implicit in every word. I really *want* redcloak to see sense.

Good stuff, Giant.

[dancrilis]

I think you may be missing the point here. Whether or not a particular setting has a class of creatures that are called "demons" that have the qualities you describe is pretty immaterial for the distinction of a class of creatures that are very much not people. In many settings such creatures are called demons so it is a fitting term.

I believe I got what they meant 'this is an evil creature that exists in the game to be killed' vs 'this is a evil creature who can be spoken to and reasoned with' (effectively), however with the exception of mindless evil creatures and creature regardless of how evil it is could in theory be reasoned with and might change its ways.
DnD has good Demons/Illithids for instance.


Can you back that up?
That is what Redcloak said in 1208 (panel 15) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html).
Also:
That is what Redcloak said in SOD.
A lot of people take Redcloak at his word on that despite neither him nor anyone he knows being present for the act - I am a bit more dubious.

If you mean the 'D&D kitchen-sink fantasy world' bit then Thor kindof says it here (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).

[Squire Doodad]

Can you back that up?

Thor himself has said that the world is meant to be a self-aware stick figure fantasy parody, see Durkon meeting Thor in person.

The Dark One has claimed that goblins were meant to be XP fodder, and while it would make sense we don't have any actual evidence to say it is for certain the case. They don't have any gods, but other monster races also don't have gods associated with them and have decent lives relative to the other races - see the Lizardfolk of the Western Continent, for instance. However, we also have nothing to say it's definitely not the case, and in either situation the goblins have been subject to definite discrimination and rampant bloodshed.

You can easily contest the XP fodder point, but that's not what's really important here.

[Psyren]

I *LOVE* how Redcloak BELIEVES Gobbotopia is very well without his strict supervision. How he thinks that now that he conquered and gave it to his people, it will prosper, create itself rules, an echonomical system and honest politics.

I'm pretty sure that when he dies, in the end of the book, the last thing he'll see is that not every goblinoid is as thoughtful as he is.

His regret will be his last feeling on this plane.

Uhhhh... somehow I think that the Giant ending the story with all the non-goblins and their deities yelling "See! We were right to be racist speciesist all along! Kill-on-sight sapient fodder races are a great idea!" is not the most likely of outcomes. Especially given the direction 5e is moving the game in, and Rich's public thoughts on that shift.


No I meant exactly what I said, context. Because sometimes when I’m running a game that isn’t about about complex issues like those, or like the ones brought in OOTS, the goblins a really are just all dumb evil creatures who’s lives bring no value to the world so my party can go do political intrigue or punch out mind flayers elsewhere. Not all fictional monstrous races or demihumans or goblinoids are created equal across all campaigns.

You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.


Is this all leading up to Goblins being a primary playable race in the next edition of D&D?

Well, why not? They are in PF2.

[Wraithfighter]

What's interesting here to me is how Durkon's actively avoiding trying to get into an argument with Redcloak. He does push hard against the whole "gods are afraid" bit, but then immediately goes "Good news, you can still get a lot out of this!". When Redcloak assumes that Durkon grew up with everything handed to him by his gods, you can see his annoyance but he lets it slide. He doesn't say "You're already equal!", but rather asks why Redcloak doesn't see them as equal. He's repeatedly couching everything in as diplomatic and neutral a tone as he can manage, really seeming to try to understand where Redcloak's coming from and what he wants.

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I really do think, though, that this isn't the hard part. This is the easy part.

The hard part will be convincing the gods. The Dark One taking a peaceful solution? The other gods accepting a Pantheon of One into their power system and encouraging acceptance of the Goblins in their followers? They're the ones with the real power here...

[Squire Doodad]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.


I think going "you can keep Gobbotopia, we'll talk about the fine points later" would work for now. Assuming it ends well, writing out the fine points as being something like "a pair of statues to represent the goblins and the humans who both have called it home, and make the former slaves part of the city/move to New Azure City instead" would probably appease both sides.

[Roland Itiative]

The fact they actually made great strides in reaching a middle ground makes it seem like the inevitable conflict reignition is just around the corner. I sure hope it's not caused by Roy coming swords-blazing.

[understatement]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I really do think, though, that this isn't the hard part. This is the easy part.


Considering Durkon is not the diplomat for Azure City, nor one of its leaders, how would he be able to guarantee Redcloak the city?

[JT]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

Maybe just an auxiliary book? It'd be easier than reprinting the whole PHB.

[Wizard_Lizard]

pretty good strip I like where it's going.

[Wraithfighter]

Considering Durkon is not the diplomat for Azure City, nor one of its leaders, how would he be able to guarantee Redcloak the city?

The spell "Sending", he could contact Hinjo and clear it with him. It'd be hard to deliver exact terms in 25 words, but could get the jist across. Something like:

"Can stop Xykon and Snarl. Deal with Redcloak. Goblins keep Azure City but free slaves. Equality for Goblins. My last Sending, if questions cast Sending".

[Squire Doodad]

The fact they actually made great strides in reaching a middle ground makes it seem like the inevitable conflict reignition is just around the corner. I sure hope it's not caused by Roy coming swords-blazing.

I'm going to guess it's ending with Xykon being about to return, leading to Durkon vanishing before he's revealed.

[Frozenstep]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I'm not so sure about that. Azure City isn't the Order's to just give away. I think the sapphire guard still function under the idea that they'll take back their city someday. Giving that up is going to be hard on them. Maybe I can see the paladins deciding it's for the greater good, but we might see another power struggle as the nobles are already probably not happy with Hinjo.

But also, Azure City might be a major negotiation hurdle for the twelve gods. Rat was a supporter of TDO originally, but he's apparently furious over Azure City. That might be a problem.

[understatement]

The spell "Sending", he could contact Hinjo and clear it with him. It'd be hard to deliver exact terms in 25 words, but could get the jist across. Something like:

"Can stop Xykon and Snarl. Deal with Redcloak. Goblins keep Azure City but free slaves. Equality for Goblins. My last Sending, if questions cast Sending".

I am unsure about the effectiveness of using 25 words for diplomacy between two groups that have hated each other for decades.


I'm going to guess it's ending with Xykon being about to return, leading to Durkon vanishing before he's revealed.

It takes Durkon five rounds to become mist, which doesn't look too good. Also, I don't think Redcloak would risk the whole table business if he knew Xykon was returning soon.

"Missing Minrah Mystery" -- still running since #1204.

[carrion pigeons]

The problem I see is that if Durkon is negotiating on behalf of Thor, then to be doing it in good faith means basically conceding everything RC cares about. RC's concerns are so incredibly different in scope compared to the gods' that this entire existence doesn't really matter. If you consider some of the inter-god politics that have already canonically been going on, you can see that they pretty much treat anything on the level of a single reality as a game, and not one that ultimately matters for much of anything. The existence and, ideally, the cooperation of TDO is something they'd sacrifice *real* things for, so the prospect of sacrificing position in a trivial stick figure universe won't mean anything to them.

I don't know how much of that fact has really registered with Durkon yet, or whether it will even end up mattering to him, but in any case, the *rest* of the Order will care about the state this universe is left in much more than any of the gods will. I kind of feel like this places the Order in the position of being the natural antagonists for the way this story "should" go, in order to resolve the main conflicts at its center.

[johnbragg]

Can you back that up?

Apparently not, I'd confused The Dark One's account with Word of Giant

[Lycan999]

You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.

Why do I have to make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins? In OOTSverse goblins are rational creatures and moral actors capable of making ethical decisions with the same degree of freedom that humans are. The Giant has essentially made it clear that "racial alignments" in his world are due to wide reaching cultural factors and it is possible for individuals to go against the grain. But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.

This is often a taboo topic because real world racists have often made that claim about whichever race they are claiming is inferior (usually all of the ones except their own), using it to justify mass atrocities. That is reprehensible because we know that all humans have the same amount of freedom when it comes to moral reasoning, but this isn't assured when dealing with a completely different species. Others have already mentioned Mind Flayers and Gnolls as examples of this already existing in the D&D universe. Humans are the way they are because the way they evolved, with out history of determining our psychological and moral limitations. In particular our communal nature probably had a significant effect on our development of empathy, and being omnivores allowed us to adopt agriculture. Different species may have different ethical capabilities as a result.

Take Gnolls for example. Gnolls are carnivores that are based on hyenas so scavengers that also pray on the old, injured, and sickly. Socially they exist in small, highly territorial packs. Why would they ever develop empathy like humans did? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for a Gnoll to instinctively view every creature as either something to be exploited or avoided? Bullying and brutality wouldn't become societal norms, they would become evolutionary norms for their species. The concept of cooperation wouldn't ever develop past the idea that putting up for a few of your time lets you take down bigger pray and might be worth sharing some loot (that you still fight over). Even if you took such a Gnoll from birth and tried to educate it in a more "enlightened" society it might learn to blend in and mimic social norms but it simply wouldn't have the capacity to become "good" in the normal sense. Imagine the worst cases of Antisocial Personality Disorder in humans (Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer), amplify it, and make it a racial trait for an entire species. Such creatures would warrant "kill on sight" for what they are.

For more extreme examples look at the Tyranids and Orks from 40k. Both are highly rational species (the Tyranid hive mind makes a human look like an amoeba in comparison and most Ork Warbosses are a lot smarter than they look, particularly the Beast). They also fall into the "exterminatus" category for what they are, because they simply are incompatible with peaceful human existence. The Tyranid want to eat everything and the Orks want MORE DAKKA, and that is just the way they are. So while simply labeling something as "evil" may be an oversimplification, labeling something as kill on sight isn't always a moral simplification.

[Wraithfighter]

I am unsure about the effectiveness of using 25 words for diplomacy between two groups that have hated each other for decades.

Not very effective, but it's *an* option, and more than they'd have otherwise. Right now, the only person who can negotiate with Redcloak is Durkon, sometimes diplomacy requires the right people in the right place at the right time going beyond the authority they've actually been granted (see also the Louisiana Purchase).

Also why you lead with it being a way to stop the Snarl, the entire reason the Sapphire Guard was formed in the first place. But no, they're not going to be hammer out a strong, long-term deal over a Sending. But a general acceptance of an agreement in principle, with an understanding that there will be crap to hash out later on (Hinjo formally ceding the city to the Goblins would do a *lot* to help the fledgling nation remain unattacked, so there's more things that Redcloak would stand to get that he'd need to give things up for) is all that's needed for things right now, and Hinjo's a good enough leader that he can look past that personal animosity towards the greater good.

He is a Paladin, after all...

[The_Weirdo]

Niu will probably insist that Redcloak be punished as well if he isn’t dead by the point the Azurite are brought in, too.

At which point Redcloak will ask her if having his own mother killed in front of him by the paladins of Niu's country is punishment enough.
Redcloak is being very reasonable on the list of demands (namely, the one demand he actually has). As for returning Azure City, sure, as soon as the Azurites undo what they did to Redcloak and his village. They are smart, industrious people, they can figure it out.

[johnbragg]

I am unsure about the effectiveness of using 25 words for diplomacy between two groups that have hated each other for decades.


Let me give it a shot

"The gods have agreed.
Peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia
They keep city.
You make peace, you get the captives."

[Kharannos]

Given that most of the inhabitants lived in a settlement that prospered, created itself rules, an economical system, and honest politics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html) (I assume), I don't really think it's that much of a stretch.

Where's the assumption they could not sustain it coming from?

I really don't have evidence to back that up, it was just a hunch. Redcloak sounded so SURE everyhting would go fine with his absense, but I think keeping a whole city of that dimmension is way harder (and complex) than that settlement. As I said, i really don't have any evidence other than his speech in Gobbotopia and the talk "behind the stages" on the next pages, and his current talk with Durkon.


Uhhhh... somehow I think that the Giant ending the story with all the non-goblins and their deities yelling "See! We were right to be racist speciesist all along! Kill-on-sight sapient fodder races are a great idea!" is not the most likely of outcomes. Especially given the direction 5e is moving the game in, and Rich's public thoughts on that shift.

You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.

Well, why not? They are in PF2.
I see your point, but I don't think that judging PRESENT TENSE goblin society is fair, since Redcloak's speech is all about "we've been that way from the start, because this is what was forced upon us".
I'm not saying Goblins would doom themselves, nor am I saying they are incompent, flawed or anything, but they have been shaped by their society that way for GENERATIONS. They've developed a whole new set of skills to survive, skills that Redcloak got from his cape, but the others haven't.
A lot of goblins and hobgoblins on Gobbotopia simply aren't aware of the whole thing Redcloak is doing. It is not their fault if Gobbotopia has a lot of problems. It is just how they were shaped by their world's society since day one.

I don't think this would prove that the Gods Racism is correct, it only proves Redcloak's point: that if they weren't hunted that way from the start, they would have a whole different society on this day, one that is able to be equal to the other (in Redcloak's perception of equality).
I just think that Redcloak ignores that fact and will, eventually, be confronted by it.

[johnbragg]

Edit: Niu will probably insist that Redcloak be punished as well if he isn’t dead by the point the Azurite are brought in, too.

Niu is in no position to insist on anything.

That position, specifically, being "on a different continent than Gobbotopia, with a smaller army than Gobbotopia, subject to an interdict of all divine magic if he launches a war to retake Azure City from the goblins of Gobbotopia".

[Gnome Alone]

Redcloak is a pretty sympathetic ruthless villain, aye? But anyone else wondering how "furth'r" would sound any different than "further"?

[Fanatic-Templar]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

Don't know how the Twelve would feel about having part of their domain given to the followers of the Dark One by the Northern Pantheon. Guessing that wouldn't work.

Big issue here is that Durkon isn't even negotiating on behalf of the gods, he's negotiating on behalf of the Northern gods - if that.

The discussion so far has intimated that they're both willing to agree on the general outlook of the outcome, but nothing concrete has been put on the table yet.

I very much doubt that the central conflict of the story will be easily solved at the beginning of the book and only prevented by the incursion of a third party. I suspect once we get down to brass tacks this negotiation is going to go south pretty quickly. Azure City is only the first thing on the list.

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak is a pretty sympathetic ruthless villain, aye? But anyone else wondering how "furth'r" would sound any different than "further"?

Well, the "e" is completely omitted, rather than just half-omitted, I would guess, or nearly whispered. It's oddly not too different from some aspects of my own accent in Brazilian Portuguese - I'm from Minas Gerais and one of the linguistic traits of my accent in Portuguese is skipping some letters at the end of words.

[chy03001]

Is it weird that I'm rooting for Red Cloak? Goblin has always been a race that I felt deserved to be a player race.

[Jacky720]

Let me give it a shot

"The gods have agreed.
Peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia
They keep city.
You make peace, you get the captives."

Ooh! Ooh! Let me try!

"Deal offered: Surrender Azure City, recognize goblin nation. Necessary for goblin's cooperation. Details later; Azurite slaves likely freed. Could save world. Counter? Look, 22 words!"

[understatement]

Ooh! Ooh! Let me try!

"Deal offered: Surrender Azure City, recognize goblin nation. Necessary for goblin's cooperation. Details later; Azurite slaves likely freed. Could save world. Counter? Look, 22 words!"

I'm not sure Redcloak is looking for Azurites (the group of people he hates the most) to verify a city he already views as rightfully his. The Azurites aren't really a threat anymore (they're thousands of miles away, for starters) and their recognition doesn't mean much.

Actually, I'm also not sure what Redcloak really wants. As Durkon says, good farmland and ore are concrete, but it looks like Redcloak wants the gods to specifically do something on the Material Plane, and I don't think the gods are capable of intervening.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Redcloak is a pretty sympathetic ruthless villain, aye? But anyone else wondering how "furth'r" would sound any different than "further"?

I'm thinking a Fuhrthruh sound, with the ending uh being a whispered inflection

[Shale]

Actually, I'm also not sure what Redcloak really wants. As Durkon says, good farmland and ore are concrete, but it looks like Redcloak wants the gods to specifically do something on the Material Plane, and I don't think the gods are capable of intervening.

I think his demand of the gods would be to stop categorizing the killing of a "usually Evil" sapient creature as a Good act. In a world where morality is objectively verifiable and has observable effects, a lot of what he wants to happen on the Prime Material would shake out from there.

[Snails]

I believe I got what they meant 'this is an evil creature that exists in the game to be killed' vs 'this is a evil creature who can be spoken to and reasoned with' (effectively), however with the exception of mindless evil creatures and creature regardless of how evil it is could in theory be reasoned with and might change its ways.
DnD has good Demons/Illithids for instance.

I suggested three rough buckets to throw all creatures into: Demons, People, Beasts. Everything a party is likely to encounter fits into one of those buckets.

Since I do not know the theology/metaphysics of all campaign worlds, I offered a practical definition of Demon:

There is a place in this genre for fighting Demons, where we understand the bar for choosing violence to resolve the situation is set quite low.

You can like or dislike, agree or disagree. But ultimately this is downright normal for D&D settings...
There are certain creatures where we expect the heroes to be biased towards parleying first: People.
There are certain creatures where we expect the heroes to be biased towards violence first: Demons.

That some few Demons might turn out to be People after all is not more profound than a certain People turned out to need a proper killing ASAP. The biases, as put forth above, are reasonable in typical campaign, and the DM accepts them and does not, say, torture the party paladin over going with them.

Not only is this kind of reasoning implicit or explicit to most D&D settings, it is baked right into JRR Tolkien's LotR. It may be worth considering the Tolkien found this inclusion of apparently inherently evil orcs to be uncomfortable, in hindsight. But it is what it is.

[Peelee]

I think going "you can keep Gobbotopia, we'll talk about the fine points later" would work for now.
Considering Durkon is not the diplomat for Azure City, nor one of its leaders, how would he be able to guarantee Redcloak the city?
The spell "Sending", he could contact Hinjo and clear it with him. It'd be hard to deliver exact terms in 25 words, but could get the jist across. Something like:

"Can stop Xykon and Snarl. Deal with Redcloak. Goblins keep Azure City but free slaves. Equality for Goblins. My last Sending, if questions cast Sending".
Let me give it a shot

"The gods have agreed.
Peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia
They keep city.
You make peace, you get the captives."
Don't know how the Twelve would feel about having part of their domain given to the followers of the Dark One by the Northern Pantheon. Guessing that wouldn't work.

[snip]

Azure City is only the first thing on the list.

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

[Snails]

Why do I have to make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins? In OOTSverse goblins are rational creatures and moral actors capable of making ethical decisions with the same degree of freedom that humans are. The Giant has essentially made it clear that "racial alignments" in his world are due to wide reaching cultural factors and it is possible for individuals to go against the grain. But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.[/QUOTE]

If you ask me, no, you should not have to "make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins".

But I think it is fair to say that if random new players were sitting at the table with you, saying this out loud would be a very helpful thing. That is where we are; and it is best to acknowledge where we really are first, and work from there.


But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.

True. That certain creatures do not have the same kind of volition as Humans is perfectly plausible in a magical world. Being explicit about this is a good idea.

[Ortho]

That's a neat little detail. Durkon has to use both hands to count to three.

[Wraithfighter]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

Gobbotopia isn't the only nation in the realm, even if we don't see the others much due to Rule of Conservation of Detail.

Yes, Gobbotopia has Cliffport recognizing them (likely neutrally aligned), and some other nations, but we also know that the Azurites want their city back, and the Elves have already expended some forces to assist. Maybe they'll send more.

What about other nations? What about other city-states? What about adventuring heroes who decide "destroy the evil empire of the Goblins and bring justice back to the land" sounds like a great cause, especially with all of Gobbotopia's heavy hitters dead or departed?

Right now, Gobbotopia only survives as long as it can fight hard enough to survive. It's political avenues are limited, and might have already hit their limit. And much of their ability to take the city in the first place was because of Xykon and Redcloak. Having the Azurites recognize their claim to the land makes it much more likely for the Good nations in the vicinity to, at the very least, tolerate their presence and maybe even open up diplomatic ties.

It might just create a world where Gobbotopia doesn't need to stay on a constant war footing just to survive.

[Jacky720]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

Re-reading the comic...

Oh. Yeah, yeah, that's a non-issue. Durkon asks if Redcloak will return the conquered territories, Redcloak says no. The only reason to return them in the first place is as a gesture of goodwill to show that goblins aren't always evil- but Redcloak is already negotiating for that in divine-decree form and it's just not worth the settlement's value as a steppping stone to general equality.

[ebarde]

Idk, I feel that even if you don't wanna run a campaign that deals with these heavy real world issues, which is a fair way to play the game especially if players at your table are playing especifically to not think about how those issues affect them, I still don't see how making goblins be objectively evil would necessarily achieve that? If you want a bad guy that you have really no issue opposing, then wouldn't it make way more sense for them to be someone that actively made bad decisions out of their own free will, instead of a species that clearly have a fair bit of agency and individuality but for some reason just defaults to evil in the end?

I just feel there are better ways to create objectively evil antagonists, I mean devils are literally made out of evil and also either fallen celestials or evil mortals that rose through the ranks of hell by doing awful things, they are probably amongst the most cruel monsters in DnD but they're far enough removed from our reality that there usually isn't really bad implications related to them. I really do like escapatory fantasy games, but for them to be escapatory there needs to be a larger separation from them and my reality and the problems in the world outside of the table.

It's not like it's hard to write characters to be hateful without relying on those things, I mean take OOTS for example and all the least sympathetic bad guys that did the worst things imaginable didn't had an ounce of good intention in them.

[Peelee]

Gobbotopia isn't the only nation in the realm, even if we don't see the others much due to Rule of Conservation of Detail.

Indeed, the Southern continent also contain the Realm of the Dragon, the Ghostlands, the Raja Kingdom, and the Peripheral Frontier. None of them seemed terribly invested in helping the Azurites (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html).

[Yarrun]

A lot of people are saying that Redcloak erred when he said "I wouldn't expect a dwarf who grew up surrounded by gold and gems to understand" and...I'm not seeing it.

Is it rude to say that during a diplomatic meeting? Yes. Is it, on a literal level, inaccurate to Durkon's lived experience? Somewhat, yes. Is it dismissive? Definitely. But Redcloak is right. Durkon doesn't understand what it's like to struggle the way a goblin does, something he demonstrates repeatedly throughout the comic. Durkon's in more danger than most because he's an exile and an adventurer, but most dwarves live much safer lives than most goblins. Not that mining and troll-fighting is necessarily safe, but it's a completely different danger than roving packs of mounted warriors with magical powers (i.e. Paladins). And it's important for Redcloak to establish that Durkon doesn't know his experiences so they can come to the point of understanding each other's worldview. Knowledge starts by acknowledging a lack of knowledge.



This is often a taboo topic because real world racists have often made that claim about whichever race they are claiming is inferior (usually all of the ones except their own), using it to justify mass atrocities. That is reprehensible because we know that all humans have the same amount of freedom when it comes to moral reasoning, but this isn't assured when dealing with a completely different species. Others have already mentioned Mind Flayers and Gnolls as examples of this already existing in the D&D universe. Humans are the way they are because the way they evolved, with out history of determining our psychological and moral limitations. In particular our communal nature probably had a significant effect on our development of empathy, and being omnivores allowed us to adopt agriculture. Different species may have different ethical capabilities as a result.

Take Gnolls for example. Gnolls are carnivores that are based on hyenas so scavengers that also pray on the old, injured, and sickly. Socially they exist in small, highly territorial packs. Why would they ever develop empathy like humans did? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for a Gnoll to instinctively view every creature as either something to be exploited or avoided? Bullying and brutality wouldn't become societal norms, they would become evolutionary norms for their species. The concept of cooperation wouldn't ever develop past the idea that putting up for a few of your time lets you take down bigger pray and might be worth sharing some loot (that you still fight over). Even if you took such a Gnoll from birth and tried to educate it in a more "enlightened" society it might learn to blend in and mimic social norms but it simply wouldn't have the capacity to become "good" in the normal sense. Imagine the worst cases of Antisocial Personality Disorder in humans (Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer), amplify it, and make it a racial trait for an entire species. Such creatures would warrant "kill on sight" for what they are.

With rare exception, if you make a sapient people that's sapient in such a way that it must be killed on sight and can't be negotiated with in any way, you're mimicking and propagating racial propaganda. Most bigotry in the history of the human race, whether on basis of race, religion, sex or gender, has always been centered on this one basic concept: "They're all like this". Monolithic cultures don't just happen naturally. There has to be some sort of artificial factor in place to keep everyone acting the same for so long (to use 40K as an example, the Orks were genetically programmed by the Old Ones to be rowdy football fans for all eternity). Going 'all ogres are dumb because that's the natural order of things' or 'all gnolls are brutal hunters because that's how they're evolved' is an over-simplification that lessens the nonhumans in a lot of settings. Basing conflicts between sentient beings on factors other than who was born to whom is both less reminiscent of racial stereotyping and allows for more stories to be told with those beings.

Also, hyenas are pack hunters and are therefore incredibly social animals who are known to navigate complex social hierarchies. Your gnolls would probably be better at navigating enlightened society than most humans.

[The_Weirdo]

Re-reading the comic...

Oh. Yeah, yeah, that's a non-issue. Durkon asks if Redcloak will return the conquered territories, Redcloak says no. The only reason to return them in the first place is as a gesture of goodwill to show that goblins aren't always evil- but Redcloak is already negotiating for that in divine-decree form and it's just not worth the settlement's value as a steppping stone to general equality.

Another issue is that any such settlement would need to do two things:

1- Ensure the goblins had somewhere else decent, safe and fertile to settle on.
2- Account for (and find some way to settle) the fact that the Azurites ran a decades-long campaign of genocide against the goblins, to include destroying Redcloak's life.

At the end of the day, the moment Redcloak got an army, there would have to be a reckoning for what Azure City's paladins did. Not the least of it because, as he himself pointed out and as his very deity proves, asking nicely did not work.

[ebarde]

Also, the goblins probably wouldn't be too keen of giving away their capital due to a historical and cultural right unless they were also given all the territory they lost and also would have historical and cultural rights too. Which would lead to a bunch of questions about whose territory belongs to who if they both occupied it at different times, which considering how expansionalist the humans were it's fair to say a big part of the continent probably exchanged hands multiple times.

[The_Weirdo]

Also, the goblins probably wouldn't be too keen of giving away their capital due to a historical and cultural right unless they were also given all the territory they lost and also would have historical and cultural rights too.

Well, not quite. To be sure, at the crux of the issue is the fact that the goblins were forced to begin with nothing. That said, Redcloak just issued his most basic and absolutely fair demand: they want equality. Now, unless every other nation that conquers another nation gives back the land once it is asked nicely...

[Peelee]

Another issue is that any such settlement would need to do two things:

2- Account for (and find some way to settle) the fact that the Azurites ran a decades-long campaign of genocide against the goblins, to include destroying Redcloak's life.

That has been settled. It was called the Battle of Azure City.

[The_Weirdo]

That has been settled. It was called the Battle of Azure City.

Sure. And what was being considered would be basically undoing the chief result of the battle, namely Azure City changing hands, no? An outcome, might I add, that we seemingly agree to be at least unfeasible?

[Wraithfighter]

Indeed, the Southern continent also contain the Realm of the Dragon, the Ghostlands, the Raja Kingdom, and the Peripheral Frontier. None of them seemed terribly invested in helping the Azurites (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html).

That was when the city was inhabited by an epic-level Lich Sorcerer and a (at the very least) near-Epic level High Priest of the Dark One, as well as an undead legion under the command of a powerful Mystic Theruge.

Two are far, far away from Gobbotopia right now, and the third is dead. Good odds their most powerful individual member right now is Jirix, who was one-shotted by a nearly naked Paladin wielding an improvised weapon.

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

And that's likely also only the coastal nations, the ones that the boat-bound Azurites could reach.

If Redcloak wants this nation of his to last a decent amount of time, he'll need to make concessions.

[ebarde]

Even without all the epic level casters in the city(which keep in mind, could always just teleport back fairly easy for all the other nations knows), defeating the goblinoid army is just way too difficult for honestly no apparent gain. They probably would need to march through a few of the goblinoids' allies too, not to mention the sheer material you'd need to send in to fortify and defend an entire city.

[Snails]

While I get why the goblins would say possession is 9/10ths of the law with respect to the land itself, with respect to the large number of civilians captured and enslaved, they will have to be released or the paladins are never going to agree to peace. And the nobles will back Hinjo there, because they will not accept their claims waved away without compensation.

Redcloak might give up the enslaved humans, but that is extremely unlikely unless given something concrete in return.

It gets back to "I have what I have. Unless you come back to me with a contract signed in blood by X and Y and Z, I am giving up nothing. The conversation is over."


Storywise, it is very necessary for this conversation to happen. Redcloak has to be given one last chance to Evolve Or Die. That he may have understandable reasons for declining does not matter. What matters is the alternative path itself must be reasonable on its own merits.

Durkon has some work left to do, but I expect him to get there.

[The_Weirdo]

That was when the city was inhabited by an epic-level Lich Sorcerer and a (at the very least) near-Epic level High Priest of the Dark One, as well as an undead legion under the command of a powerful Mystic Theruge.

Two are far, far away from Gobbotopia right now, and the third is dead. Good odds their most powerful individual member right now is Jirix, who was one-shotted by a nearly naked Paladin wielding an improvised weapon.

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

And that's likely also only the coastal nations, the ones that the boat-bound Azurites could reach.

If Redcloak wants this nation of his to last a decent amount of time, he'll need to make concessions.

I honestly, truly doubt that the lesson the author wants to give us will be "Only non-goblins can conquer other nations without every single nearby place going on a species-motivated rampage on the new country" or "Goblins will either have to submit to what scraps are offered to them after millenia of inequality or live by the sword forever".

[LadyEowyn]

Redcloak doesn’t need to make concessions because 1) his demands are reasonable, 2) very few nations will deliberately take the military risk of attempting to invade a fortified city at great risk and little benefit to themselves, and the Azurites are pretty happily settled and have no capacity to reconquer Gobbotopia themselves, and 3) most importantly, TDO holds the key to the world’s survival, which is the reason these negotiations are happening in the first place.

(And, out of universe, Rich has clearly stated that the Azurites aren’t going to be taking the city back. It’s in one of the book commentaries.)

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak doesn’t need to make concessions because 1) his demands are reasonable, 2) very few nations will deliberately take the military risk of attempting to invade a fortified city at great risk and little benefit to themselves, and the Azurites are pretty happily settled and have no capacity to reconquer Gobbotopia themselves, and 3) most importantly, TDO holds the key to the world’s survival, which is the reason these negotiations are happening in the first place.

(And, out of universe, Rich has clearly stated that the Azurites aren’t going to be taking the city back. It’s in one of the book commentaries.)

Ah, my dear Lady Eowyn. I always saw you as a saner, kinder version of me. :smallbiggrin:

Allow me to second everything you said.

[Wraithfighter]

Even without all the epic level casters in the city(which keep in mind, could always just teleport back fairly easy for all the other nations knows), defeating the goblinoid army is just way too difficult for honestly no apparent gain. They probably would need to march through a few of the goblinoids' allies too, not to mention the sheer material you'd need to send in to fortify and defend an entire city.

Indeed, it would be very difficult, and the potential gains would be slim.

Unless, of course, they believed the Goblins might decide to deal with obstinate nations militarily, at which point "get your self defense on first" becomes a compelling casus belli. And... what allies? Have any been mentioned? Because the closest they've got are a bunch of nations recognizing their borders (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html). That doesn't make them allies, or even friendly, just "...yes, fine, you exist and we'll maybe trade with you". And there's always, well, the chance of mid-to-high level adventurers coming in and deciding to liberate the conquered kingdom of Azure City, ruled by the vile, murderous, wretched goblins that destroyed one of the great bastions of civilization in the South!

Seriously, tell me that doesn't sound like a pretty strong D&D campaign?

[Peelee]

That was when the city was inhabited by an epic-level Lich Sorcerer and a (at the very least) near-Epic level High Priest of the Dark One, as well as an undead legion under the command of a powerful Mystic Theruge.

Two are far, far away from Gobbotopia right now, and the third is dead. Good odds their most powerful individual member right now is Jirix, who was one-shotted by a nearly naked Paladin wielding an improvised weapon.

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

And that's likely also only the coastal nations, the ones that the boat-bound Azurites could reach.

If Redcloak wants this nation of his to last a decent amount of time, he'll need to make concessions.

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

They would then have the full strength of Azure City before the battle, in addition to all the defenses AC had (minus the paladins). Not an easy nut to crack at the best of times. And to think that the neighbors would retake it for the Azurites, gaining no benefit themselves, while the Azurites are on the other side of the globe?

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath until that happens, it's what I'm saying here.


While I get why the goblins would say possession is 9/10ths of the law with respect to the land itself, with respect to the large number of civilians captured and enslaved, they will have to be released or the paladins are never going to agree to peace. And the nobles will back Hinjo there, because they will not accept their claims waved away without compensation.
What are they gong to do, write a sternly worded letter?

[ebarde]

Azure City was the most powerful nation of the continent, and even if you take out both sides commanders(i.e team evil and the order) their forces were still fairly outclassed all things considered. I'd also doubt there isn't a good chunk of people with class levels in their military, goblinoid clerics don't seem to be all that rare, and we've seen plenty of special types of troops in earlier strips. Considering the Azurians politics I'd also wager no one particularly cares about helping them reclaim their city, and Redcloak seemed to have put a fair bit of thought in the city's foreign policy.

[Dragonus45]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

They are already making plans to take it back, if they don't agree to this that fight will certainly happen and without Xykon or Red Cloak they could very will win.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Niu is in no position to insist on anything.

That position, specifically, being "on a different continent than Gobbotopia, with a smaller army than Gobbotopia, subject to an interdict of all divine magic if he launches a war to retake Azure City from the goblins of Gobbotopia".

When last seen, Niu was escaping from the city as Redcloak crushed the remains of the Resistance. Are you perhaps thinking of a different character?

What always confused me is that once we saw the map, we knew that the Azurites had other cities to go to in their realm (Robinsegg being the largest and probably best candidate). So why didn't they? The hobgoblin army did the equivalent of taking one territory in a continent in a game of Risk. That doesn't mean you own everything else all of a sudden.

[Dragonus45]

(And, out of universe, Rich has clearly stated that the Azurites aren’t going to be taking the city back. It’s in one of the book commentaries.)

That's what I get for not reading the physical books, and that actually really sucks all around. Guess bloodthirsty conquest, mass slaughter, and slavery are still ok when the correct people do them.

[Wraithfighter]

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

They would then have the full strength of Azure City before the battle, in addition to all the defenses AC had (minus the paladins). Not an easy nut to crack at the best of times. And to think that the neighbors would retake it for the Azurites, gaining no benefit themselves, while the Azurites are on the other side of the globe?

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath until that happens, it's what I'm saying here.

No, it's not likely, but it's a risk, and a perpetual one.

To me, at least, the question on Redcloak's side of things basically comes down to "Does Redcloak want the Goblins to be seen as a powerful force holding every other nation at bay under threat of their military power, or does he want the Goblins to be fully accepted as part of the world's civilizations?"

Because that's what he'd be getting. No, I'm not saying that Gobbotopia's three weeks away from falling. But right now it's tolerated because it's seen as a powerful enemy that isn't attacking anyone... yet. That keeps it safe for now, but power disparities change. Other nations might raise up stronger armies, or band together against a potential foe. Adventurers might insert themselves to do what Adventurers do best: Massacre usually-evil creatures to topple an evil regime and restore the rightful king to the throne. And Goblins would only be allowed to enter cities so long as the threat of "Cīvis Gobbotopia Sum" remains a compelling threat.

Or he can deal. Make peace with the Azurites, release the captured slaves, and take the first, hard steps in building that world that Redcloak wants so much, where he could enter an average city in the world and not be attacked on sight. Show that what the Goblins won in conquest, they're willing be peaceful to keep.

[understatement]

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.


I think one of the soldiers mentioned 10,000 out of 30,000 was killed, and definitely more hobgoblins have moved in.


They are already making plans to take it back, if they don't agree to this that fight will certainly happen and without Xykon or Red Cloak they could very will win.

Their army consists of Hinjo, Kazumi, Daigo, nobles, and an army very much reduced in size (and consisted mainly of civilians). They're also thousands of miles away. I wouldn't bet on their chances.


When last seen, Niu was escaping from the city as Redcloak crushed the remains of the Resistance. Are you perhaps thinking of a different character?


I think what they meant was that Niu is not in a position of command or influence to significantly change diplomacy tactics.


That's what I get for not reading the physical books, and that actually really sucks all around. Guess bloodthirsty conquest, mass slaughter, and slavery are still ok when the correct people do them.

I can trust that the Azurites driving out the hobgoblins and retaking the city will not do any wonders for the cycle of revenge (and will most definitely create a Redcloak 2.0)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let's assume that two thirds of the goblin army was destroyed taking Azure City. That is likely massively overestimating enemy casualties, so the deck is stacked against them in this scenario.

They would then have the full strength of Azure City before the battle, in addition to all the defenses AC had (minus the paladins). Not an easy nut to crack at the best of times. And to think that the neighbors would retake it for the Azurites, gaining no benefit themselves, while the Azurites are on the other side of the globe?

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath until that happens, it's what I'm saying here.

When last seen, large sections of the walls were piles of rubble. That's a weakness AC didn't have. The bastion has also been blown to bits (literally so), most of the buildings are still showing signs of damage and we aren't shown any of the siege engines that should be there (though that might be an issue of scale). Oh, and we have never been shown any defenses on the seaward side, which is where the Azurite Remnant would be attacking from.

On the plus side for the goblinoids, they breed fast, so there's a whole new crop of young adults to draft into the army by now.

[Dragonus45]

Their army consists of Hinjo, Kazumi, Daigo, nobles, and an army very much reduced in size (and consisted mainly of civilians). They're also thousands of miles away. I wouldn't bet on their chances.


Right now? Probably not. But give them some time to regroup, get in touch refugees, and rebuild their forces and I can easily see them taking the city back in the future. Rightfully I might add.

[The_Weirdo]

That's what I get for not reading the physical books, and that actually really sucks all around. Guess bloodthirsty conquest, mass slaughter, and slavery are still ok when the correct people do them.

I mean, that was exactly how it worked with non-goblins being "the correct people", to the tune of atrocities committed against Redcloak by Paladins back when Redcloak was perfectly innocent. So I guess the still applies, I suppose? But that aside, tell me something: the Azurites staged a decades-long genocide campaign. What did they think would happen?


Right now? Probably not. But give them some time to regroup, get in touch refugees, and rebuild their forces and I can easily see them taking the city back in the future. Rightfully I might add.

Oh, and will they rightfully use a Wish spell to undo the attack on Redcloak's village?

[Dragonus45]

I mean, that was exactly how it worked with non-goblins being "the correct people", to the tune of atrocities committed against Redcloak by Paladins back when Redcloak was perfectly innocent. So I guess the still applies, I suppose? But that aside, tell me something: the Azurites staged a decades-long genocide campaign. What did they think would happen?

If you just want to make things up then go ahead? But last I checked Azure city wasn't conquering goblinoid lands willy-nilly. That was one secret society from them, who were operating way outside of their mandate and without the knowledge of AC's leadership. And while they attack on the noncombatants of Red Cloak's village was deplorable, it was literally harboring a cleric of an evil god dedicated to a plan that would cause the death literally everyone on the material plain.

[Peelee]

They are already making plans to take it back, if they don't agree to this that fight will certainly happen and without Xykon or Red Cloak they could very will win.

Them and what army?

Seriously. They lost when they had 10,000 troops and all the defenses of the city. Currently they have tens of troops, possibly dozens, and would have to fight against those same defenses. The army was a massive threat even without Xykon and Reddie. Still is. Tens of thousands strong, entrenched, well defended. Hinjo ain't got jack.

[The_Weirdo]

If you just want to make things up then go ahead? But last I checked Azure city wasn't conquering goblinoid lands willy-nilly. That was one secret society from them, who were operating way outside of their mandate and without the knowledge of AC's leadership. And while they attack on the noncombatants of Red Cloak's village was deplorable, it was literally harboring a cleric of an evil god dedicated to a plan that would cause the death literally everyone on the material plain.

A plan that would not have been needed if the gods hadn't set the goblins up to lead miserable, short and unequal lives.

[Dragonus45]

A plan that would not have been needed if the gods hadn't set the goblins up to lead miserable, short and unequal lives.

A statement dripping with unreliable narration from an Evil god that doesn't entirely make sense with more recent revelations from Thor.

[ebarde]

I mean, yeah they pretty much destroyed every village in their way until they found the bearer of the red mantle. The bearer being there doesn't justify anything, they had extremely lttle information to even go off of, they would have done what they did rather he was there or not.

[The_Weirdo]

A statement dripping with unreliable narration from an Evil god that doesn't entirely make sense with more recent revelations from Thor.

I'm sorry, could you kindly explain that assertion?

[Anansiil]

No I meant exactly what I said, context. Because sometimes when IÂ’m running a game that isnÂ’t about about complex issues like those, or like the ones brought in OOTS, the goblins a really are just all dumb evil creatures whoÂ’s lives bring no value to the world so my party can go do political intrigue or punch out mind flayers elsewhere. Not all fictional monstrous races or demihumans or goblinoids are created equal across all campaigns.

I understand your perspective: If I make goblins intelligent and able to bring value to the world, then they do. If I choose to make goblins dumb and evil, then they are dumb, evil, and bring no value to the world.

You are proving Red Cloak's entire point. He is saying, I'm a goblin and my life has value, and you're saying "only in the context that I desire does your life have value".
That's why I said perspective, because a goblin like Red Cloak has a perspective whether or not you you see him as equal or worthy of living because he contributes to the world in a way you find valuable.

(Millions of people feel that way about other humans today, word for word: "They don't contribute anything to the world."
{scrubbed})

I honestly didn't understand why WoTC wanted to alter DnD to avoid racism, though now I'm starting to get maybe why they felt that way. Though it's a game, I took it for granted that people didn't 'actually' see fictional races as evil. I assumed it was pragmatism since they weren't allies and were at odds... So interesting.

Sure sometimes, but more often then not in my experience it's framed as the "You don't know what its like to suffer X, and even if you did you still probably had an easier time of it then I did." kind of deal totally erasing who I am as a person.
I've never seen anyone say "even if you did", because these conversations are reserved for people who are different, and thus not capable of having that same experience (Goblin vs Dwarf, man vs woman, rich vs poor etc)...

What is your intention? Do you want to say you've suffered in other ways and CAN relate to suffering in general or compete on who has suffered more?
That's a tricky position to be in. Bringing up how you have suffered in response to their suffering is often an attempt of Person B to downplay Person A's suffering, erasing what Person A just told Person B.

If Person A is mentioning how they suffered in a way that Person B could not have suffered, and Person B is offended because they have suffered in other ways, Person B is changing the subject to their own experience and moving past Person A's feelings/experience.

If you would like to have a conversation/relationship with them then it's on you (unfortunately) to steer it in a better direction like Durkon is trying to do. If you don't care to try that, you can ignore the fact that the Person A is hurting and misguided and then try to win the suffering competition.
(I've never had it go wrong by saying I've suffered differently and they are not the same. Those aren't fighting words.)



The way what I was alluding to is normally thrown around the implication is, just as with Red Cloak, that Person B has never suffered. Saying "I suffered thus" is a good way to build your pathos. Saying "you [member of outgroup] haven't suffered" only undermines their pathos. Or is it ethos? The sides of the rhetorical triangle elude me.

The "you" does appear accusative... Except, word for word, was that ever stated or was that what you think is implied? Taking specific statements like "I wouldn't expect a dwarf who grew surrounded by gold and gems to understand what its like to struggle or do without. The fact is the goblins have been at a material disadvantage compared to the humans, dwarves, elves [...] We've been forced to live on terrible barren land with infertile soil and few natural resources."

Think of how Durkon's mom gave away all of those diamonds. Goblins didn't have diamonds (wealth) to give away. It's like comparing a rich country vs a poor country. Of course people can be poor in a rich country. It's also usually true that a poor person in that rich country owns more wealth than people in poor country. She could have restored her arm, but her emotional reasons and pension were enough to sustain her. (I'll assume injured goblins might not have a good pension system).

Assuming that Red Cloak's statements mean that Durkon could not have personally suffered is changing what Red Cloak is talking about. (I hope that makes sense).


Redcloak makes an assumption that Durkon hasn't gone through struggle and hardship at all. While it's true Redcloak has gone through more then Durkon, it was an unneeded attack on his character that doesn't really help explain anything. But...Durkon, and by extension the comic, doesn't treat that as something that invalidates the argument, he takes it and doesn't even comment, and goes on to listen and understand.

Durkon is doing a great job, honestly. Durkon asked if they actually were unequal. The fact that Durkon even had to ask meant that Red Cloak needed to explain differences between how goblins were perceived and how PC races are seen. The goblins that attack a village are monsters but 'demi/humans' attack a goblin village and they are heroes is a great point, ESPECIALLY when Durkon brings up Azure city since conquest isn't an unheard of concept for humans.

Red Cloak is speaking about Dwarves in general and not Durkon in the specific. Red Cloak doesn't know Durkon from that statue. Taking a general statement as a personal attack is why it's so hard to discuss racism


The Lack of Conflict Is Not Peace. Redcloak could absolutely just go start up a village somewhere like the comic often purports he should and wouldn't resolve the fact that the gods themselves have condemned him, his family, his children, his entire community to the face of non-human cannon fodder, grist for the lives of the people who the gods decided were actually important.

Painting Redcloak as ignorant of the struggles that Durkon has gone through is also frankly meaningless within the larger context of the conflict they're embroiled in. Yes, Durkon grew up poor. Durkon also grew up safe and loved in a community that wasn't threatened by every other nation under the sun. Durkon is poor because of his mother's decision to be moral-give Redcloak's mom could be given the same sack of diamonds and y'know what that would give her? A more favorable roll on the treasure table when some fighter is looting her corpse. Durkon has a ****ing racial bonus to attack Redcloak's entire race for {scrubbed} sake. Redcloak assumptions that Durkon grew up in a safer, richer environment then his entire village is correct and the fact that this comic tries to paint that as Redcloak "not understanding Durkon" is hilarious. It's a false equivalency of massive proportions and in the time that this comic is being written it's frankly inexcusable.
*high five*
They live in a world where you can wipe out a clan of goblins living in an dungeon... What if that abandoned dungeon is their home? I couldn't attack some people under a freeway overpass and proudly show off my new tent... :eek: I'd rightly be seen as a monster.


You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.

That's all the difference in the world. Kill them for their creed, not their existence...

[Dragonus45]

I'm sorry, could you kindly explain that assertion?

The idea that the “inexperienced” gods accidentally created a world where there just too many cool high level monsters and and not enough cheap fodder to get adventurers to a good level to fight them, doesn’t fit all with the reality that they have created a number of worlds almost literally uncountable by mortal minds. But even if that part was partly true literally everything about TDO and his history seems fairly suspect. As a side note I consider everything in crayon unreliable narration.

[ebarde]

The whole being made to be killed by PCs not being true thing makes very little sense, I mean it's certainly not hard to see what Rich's motivations with adding that in to the comic were. It's a clear commentary on the design philosophy of DnD, if that isn't true then the story would be saying exactly the opposite of what Rich quite explicitedly wants the story to say about it's themes. If it's just a lie and goblins have equal standing to every other race in a cosmological sense, what would Rich even be trying to comment on with that?

[The_Weirdo]

The idea that the “inexperienced” gods accidentally created a world where there just too many cool high level monsters and and not enough cheap fodder to get adventurers to a good level to fight them, doesn’t fit all with the reality that they have created a number of worlds almost literally uncountable by mortal minds. But even if that part was partly true literally everything about TDO and his history seems fairly suspect. As a side note I consider everything in crayon unreliable narration.

Okay, that's a lot to unpack.

First off, experience doesn't mean mistakes can't be made. Heck, it doesn't mean that's not the first time the gods did that exact sort of thing to entire races, either.

Second, really, you'll have to back "seems fairly suspect" up.

Third, if it's only by chance that Paladins can slaughter villages full of innocent sentients and these Paladins do not Fall, then it's a weeeeeeird chance you got there.

[Snails]

Azure City fell because of Xykon and Redcloak. Redcloak made a massive breach in the wall. Redcloak & Xykon made some powerful undead beasties that were difficult for someteenth level PCs to defeat. Xykon smashed dozens of paladins at the throne room -- while few were high level, they qualified as a elite force that could have slain a thousand goblins when defending from an unbreached wall.

IMO there is no real reason to expect Gobbotopia to survive if Redcloak is not around to assist. Jirix is not high enough level to deal with even simple hit and run raids by high single digit parties softening up the defenses. We know of no goblin except Redcloak and Jirix that could even make the attempt.

[Peelee]

Azure City fell because of Xykon and Redcloak. Redcloak made a massive breach in the wall. Redcloak & Xykon made some powerful undead beasties that were difficult for someteenth level PCs to defeat. Xykon smashed dozens of paladins at the throne room -- while few were high level, they qualified as a elite force that could have slain a thousand goblins when defending from an unbreached wall.

The Azurite generals themselves called it an even fight without even factoring in Xykon and Redcloak (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).


IMO there is no real reason to expect Gobbotopia to survive if Redcloak is not around to assist. Jirix is not high enough level to deal with even simple hit and run raids by high single digit parties softening up the defenses. We know of no goblin except Redcloak and Jirix that could even make the attempt.

Except for the massively successful goblin settlement which managed to have a standing army three times the size of Azure City's, you mean (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html)? Imean, if we want to call that a "real" reason.

[Dragonus45]

You are proving Red Cloak's entire point. He is saying, I'm a goblin and my life has value, and you're saying "only in the context that I desire does your life have value".
That's why I said perspective, because a goblin like Red Cloak has a perspective whether or not you you see him as equal or worthy of living because he contributes to the world in a way you find valuable.

Red Cloak is a fictional character. He can have whatever perspective he wants, he only does so because he is a goblin in the context of a story where goblins are people.



I honestly didn't understand why WoTC wanted to alter DnD to avoid racism, though now I'm starting to get maybe why they felt that way. Though it's a game, I took it for granted that people didn't 'actually' see fictional races as evil. I assumed it was pragmatism since they weren't allies and were at odds... So interesting.

I mean, most people just see fictional races in the context of D&D as tools. For OOTS they are tools to tell a story of racial allegory. Sometimes they are generic enemies. Sometimes they basically don’t exist because they don’t show up for an entire campaign centered around other problems.



I've never seen anyone say "even if you did", because these conversations are reserved for people who are different, and thus not capable of having that same experience (Goblin vs Dwarf, man vs woman, rich vs poor etc)...


Oh, I have. I’ve literally had people tell me directly to face “I mean, a mans experience with an abusive girlfriend could never be as bad as a woman’s.” And also “Your being homeless would have been so much worse if you were woman.” It’s not even occasional, it’s almost constant. I could say more examples but that gets into politics.

[Squire Doodad]

IMO there is no real reason to expect Gobbotopia to survive if Redcloak is not around to assist. Jirix is not high enough level to deal with even simple hit and run raids by high single digit parties softening up the defenses. We know of no goblin except Redcloak and Jirix that could even make the attempt.

Fortunately for them, the Resistance was a group that didn't have 3rd level mages (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), and they were already crushed by Redcloak. Given the Elves probably don't plan on waging war on a very far away nation if everyone they sent as well as who they were fighting for is dead, there are very few people who will attack an established nation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) with plans to put down their leaders and wipe out the constituents instead of to, say, free the slaves. One may involve the other, actually, but that's neither here nor there. Given that this is also a low-level world, Gobbotopia sure wouldn't have been founded if it wasn't for Redcloak, but it will be able to persist without him given what he has done thus far.

[ebarde]

They called it an even fight without counting the undeads too. Also keep in mind that this is with all the fortifications and also only considering the incomplete information they had due to anti-divination spells.

[Peelee]

They called it an even fight without counting the undeads too. Also keep in mind that this is with all the fortifications and also only considering the incomplete information they had due to anti-divination spells.

Indeed. And those fortifications are now in the hands of the goblins. So, if you count the fortifications as making an army three times as strong when defending (or worth an extra 20,000 troops when defending), you're looking at an army of 40,000-60,000 to make an even fight to take it back. Four to six times what the Azurites had when they ruled their own empire.

[Squire Doodad]

They called it an even fight without counting the undeads too. Also keep in mind that this is with all the fortifications and also only considering the incomplete information they had due to anti-divination spells.

TL;DR:

What at least was 26,400 battle-ready Hobgoblins (and is now apparently at least 15k), along with their families, plus a swelling clergy and additional undead horde, are a very powerful force which can fend off attackers.

Given they're now trading with up to 16 countries if not more, they can really stick around.

[understatement]

Azure City had three main assets in the war:

1) the walls. Some parts are broken, but it's the hobgoblins' now.

2) the Sapphire Guard + Soon Kim. This makes the castle unseizable...but doesn't matter anymore. They're gone.

3) the Order.

Azure City has nowhere the 10,000 trained army, nor their strike team of paladins or higher level wizards and clerics. They have no catapults.

Is it unfair to the Azurite citizens to be driven from their homeland by people they've never even met before? Yes. But retaking the city from the hobgoblins will not make things better in the long run, and it pretty much guarantees another war like it would happen.

[Dragonus45]

Okay, that's a lot to unpack.

First off, experience doesn't mean mistakes can't be made. Heck, it doesn't mean that's not the first time the gods did that exact sort of thing to entire races, either

Second, really, you'll have to back "seems fairly suspect" up.

Third, if it's only by chance that Paladins can slaughter villages full of innocent sentients and these Paladins do not Fall, then it's a weeeeeeird chance you got there.

1. I’ll believe the gods probably still tossed goblins in as something an afterthought into their self aware stick figure parody universe. I’m beginning to doubt they did it to deliberately oppress the entire race.
2. The major crux of that, written in crayon backstory, is that everyone would rather betray the Dark One and murder him rather then deal a goblin under any circumstances. Now the argument is that capture Azure City will probably stand because no one actually wants to destroy it. That entire plot point is depressing but apparently it’s word of god. This raises an interesting thought, if people are willing to just let the goblins claim the city and it’s lands and treat them like a nation now, AFTER the death of TDO and apparent mass slaughter that lead to the message you can never let goblinoids build a society, then why did they assassinate the dark one before that. Is it possible the Evil deity lied to his cleric when telling him backstory? Well, when he let the cloak deliver the backstory. He never actually bothered to talk to red cloak directly.

Third, several of those paladins almost certainly did fall. https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21

[ebarde]

I feel that wizard's decision to change up how the monstrous races works have a lot of different motivations, but mainly idk...the previous interpretations of them they all had pretty much no personality or flair? If I want to have my party fight enemies that they don't need to feel bad about it, have the necromancer raise a horde of an undead, at least then there isn't any pretense that the antagonists will be anything other than walking hit points that do damage. Cause as it stood it's like...orcs, goblins and everything else mostly just served the same purpose and kinda were fairly inconsistently written, cause them being objectively evil never really made a whole lot of sense and was contradictory to how most DnD settings worked.

Even if we don't wanna tackle with any of the moral implications of those depictions, I kinda just keep coming back to just always finding those enemies to be the most uninteresting parts of my sessions cause they were basically all the same. I can think of memorable encounters with bandits, dragons and a lot of other different creatures, but all encounters I had with Goblins or orcs all just blend themselves together cause the set-up is always the same. "Goblins are attacking a village, go there kill them and earn gold".

[Jasdoif]

Red Cloak is speaking about Dwarves in general and not Durkon in the specific. Red Cloak doesn't know Durkon from that statue.You really think pointing at Durkon and going directly from "your people" to "a dwarf" doesn't indicate a comment directed at Durkon? Do you think he was talking about Kraagor?

[Peelee]

Kraagor?

That was rife for a joke before you changed it. What joke I do not know, but rife, I tells ya!

[Jasdoif]

That was rife for a joke before you changed it. What joke I do not know, but rife, I tells ya!A kragoor is, of course, a crag with abundant ore. Possibly what Kraagor's name was inspired by; but, you know, basic courtesy in the attempt to get names right.

[Anansiil]

A lot of people are saying that Redcloak erred when he said "I wouldn't expect a dwarf who grew up surrounded by gold and gems to understand" and...I'm not seeing it.
Durkon's in more danger than most because he's an exile and an adventurer, but most dwarves live much safer lives than most goblins. Not that mining and troll-fighting is necessarily safe, but it's a completely different danger than roving packs of mounted warriors with magical powers (i.e. Paladins). And it's important for Redcloak to establish that Durkon doesn't know his experiences so they can come to the point of understanding each other's worldview. Knowledge starts by acknowledging a lack of knowledge.



With rare exception, if you make a sapient people that's sapient in such a way that it must be killed on sight and can't be negotiated with in any way, you're mimicking and propagating racial propaganda. Most bigotry in the history of the human race, whether on basis of race, religion, sex or gender, has always been centered on this one basic concept: "They're all like this". [...] Going 'all ogres are dumb because that's the natural order of things' or 'all gnolls are brutal hunters because that's how they're evolved' is an over-simplification that lessens the nonhumans in a lot of settings. Basing conflicts between sentient beings on factors other than who was born to whom is both less reminiscent of racial stereotyping and allows for more stories to be told with those beings.

Also, hyenas are pack hunters and are therefore incredibly social animals who are known to navigate complex social hierarchies. Your gnolls would probably be better at navigating enlightened society than most humans.

I agree quite strongly!
I love this kind of out of the box thinking. Hyenas are social, so imagine what kind of societies they would naturally have? I love having my mind opened to new ideas while I'm having fun.
My favorite stories have always had 'motivation vs motivation' rather than Good vs Evil.
Funny enough, my escapism still has the complexities of life... but with super powers :P
(probably because people ignoring the complexities has caused me more issues that having to deal with complexities lol)

Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis (game), Malazan Book of the Fallen (book), The Broken Earth Trilogy (book) are all good examples of complex stories being told that can keep you guessing, as opposed to the simple 'will evil be stopped?' :D


Oh, I have. I’ve literally had people tell me directly to face “I mean, a mans experience with an abusive girlfriend could never be as bad as a woman’s.” And also “Your being homeless would have been so much worse if you were woman.” It’s not even occasional, it’s almost constant. I could say more examples but that gets into politics.

You are right in that competition is bad and totally misguided. My question is why are you trying to say that they are the same?
I'm strongly positing that trying to say the experiences are the same is what is driving the argument.
"You have factor A and I have factor B so our experiences were different".
'No, our experiences were the same.' vs 'Our experiences were different and both were bad'.

You don't have to agree with their assertion. Saying the experiences are the same or basically the same negates their individual life experiences.
We can all agree that the hypothetical abuse/homelessness is bad, but it's so helpful to try and understand how it impacts people differently. (I'm a researcher in medical and public health :P and the best plans try and reasonably account for different circumstances).
(your two examples makes me think we have seen documentaries on the same guy.)

An exiled Goblin (kill on sight!) and an Exiled Dwarf (possibly an ally?) will not have the same experience. If we want to stay friends, arguing who had it worst probably won't go well... but it could be possible to objectively list and count considerations that each does and does not have to worry about.
Avoid competing and promote understanding :)

[The MunchKING]

A lot of people take Redcloak at his word on that despite neither him nor anyone he knows being present for the act - I am a bit more dubious.

If you mean the 'D&D kitchen-sink fantasy world' bit then Thor kindof says it here (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).

If you want another Holy Book's take on it, you can kind of get the "there are people that do the killing, and those that fight back but exist to be killed" from the Book of Odad, where it talks about how they warred on others without purpose for purpose hadn't been invented yet. Granted that was thousands of worlds ago (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html), but I forgot that she put that detail in at the end. *shrug*



Indeed, the Southern continent also contain the Realm of the Dragon, the Ghostlands, the Raja Kingdom, and the Peripheral Frontier. None of them seemed terribly invested in helping the Azurites (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html).

Indeed the Dark One thinks that Jirix's battles will be "trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)". Which suggests to me, that at least as far as the Dark One can see, it's more about securing those alliances and political capital to survive than worrying about an Azurite counter-invasion.


Them and what army?

Seriously. They lost when they had 10,000 troops and all the defenses of the city. Currently they have tens of troops, possibly dozens, and would have to fight against those same defenses. The army was a massive threat even without Xykon and Reddie. Still is. Tens of thousands strong, entrenched, well defended. Hinjo ain't got jack.

Hinjo WAS leveling up clearing monsters the last time we saw him. If he could get really high level he could take out a bunch of hobgoblins himself. Same idea for Ochul and Lien. (assuming they survive this mission)



Oh, and will they rightfully use a Wish spell to undo the attack on Redcloak's village?

Wish can't actually do that you know. Even high-powered artifacts can only go back a couple rounds. D&D is pretty clear that time travel is not possible in the standard rules.

[Lycan999]

With rare exception, if you make a sapient people that's sapient in such a way that it must be killed on sight and can't be negotiated with in any way, you're mimicking and propagating racial propaganda. Most bigotry in the history of the human race, whether on basis of race, religion, sex or gender, has always been centered on this one basic concept: "They're all like this". Monolithic cultures don't just happen naturally. There has to be some sort of artificial factor in place to keep everyone acting the same for so long (to use 40K as an example, the Orks were genetically programmed by the Old Ones to be rowdy football fans for all eternity). Going 'all ogres are dumb because that's the natural order of things' or 'all gnolls are brutal hunters because that's how they're evolved' is an over-simplification that lessens the nonhumans in a lot of settings. Basing conflicts between sentient beings on factors other than who was born to whom is both less reminiscent of racial stereotyping and allows for more stories to be told with those beings.

Also, hyenas are pack hunters and are therefore incredibly social animals who are known to navigate complex social hierarchies. Your gnolls would probably be better at navigating enlightened society than most humans.

I completely disagree with your assertion that it's mimicking and propagating racial propaganda just from talking about species in absolute terms, because there are absolute constraints that determine how individual species act. Racists are wrong because those constraints are the same for all varieties of humans, all humans are acting under the same mental and moral constraints. But it is valid to look at the different the absolute constraints of an inhuman species that would have had an alien evolutionary path. And I guess I should explain better what I meant with "kill on sight" since I was being a bit hyperbolic (except Tyranids, good luck negotiating there).

Effectively there are conceivably species that would simply be completely incompatible with humans on a societal level. They may be negotiated with individually in the short term since they are rational creatures (though even that might not be a given, logical thinking might not be a prerequisite for sentience, that's an interesting question) but on a larger scale they may not be willing to or even capable of doing so. If they are a purely solitary species they may be completely incapable of comprehending social concepts in the same way we find it disturbing when eusocial animals casually use each other as building material. Large portions of the human brain is dedicated to things such as facial and body language recognition, language comprehension, and general human empathy in being able to understand other people experiences. A species with different brain structure could conceivably lack those areas and thus have no concept of empathy, or possibly even no self awareness as we would understand it.

I think the other area you misunderstood me is I'm not saying these species are "monolithic" like you described. I'm saying that every species has built in parameters that define the possible decisions it is capable of making according to that specie's understanding of the world and that it is different for each species. Specific individuals may have a slightly different set of parameters, like a human with extreme antisocial personality disorder, but the disorder part there is key. An ant with empathy would be a similar anomaly.

And you are probably right about hyenas, I really don't know much about them. But I think my arguments still stand if you hold my assumptions to be true, and that was really the point. Also I'll let the ogre thing pass because yes, all ogres being dumb can be the order of things. The average intelligence of a species can just be low, not sure what point you were trying to make there.

[Alex Warlorn]

Redcloak has it backwards.

There are so many human-orc hybrids BECAUSE they're tolerated more than the goblins! (Who wouldn't pay good money for a scary group of orc mercenaries?)

[Psyren]

Why do I have to make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins? In OOTSverse goblins are rational creatures and moral actors capable of making ethical decisions with the same degree of freedom that humans are. The Giant has essentially made it clear that "racial alignments" in his world are due to wide reaching cultural factors and it is possible for individuals to go against the grain. But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.

Of course other settings can do this, and have done so. As can yours.

The question the Giant is asking (and now 5e and PF2 as well) is should they. If you want monsters that are kill on sight with few to no moral quandaries, there are so many others to choose from besides humanoids. Some are mindless hazards (like oozes and vermin), some are malevolent and intentional (fiends and aberrations) and some are both (undead). What is emphasized with all of them though is lacking the same capacity for morality/ethics that humans possess - to say nothing of any physiological or cultural parallels that could prove problematic on close examination. Orcs, goblins, gnolls, and even drow are not the same.



I see your point, but I don't think that judging PRESENT TENSE goblin society is fair, since Redcloak's speech is all about "we've been that way from the start, because this is what was forced upon us".
I'm not saying Goblins would doom themselves, nor am I saying they are incompent, flawed or anything, but they have been shaped by their society that way for GENERATIONS. They've developed a whole new set of skills to survive, skills that Redcloak got from his cape, but the others haven't.
A lot of goblins and hobgoblins on Gobbotopia simply aren't aware of the whole thing Redcloak is doing. It is not their fault if Gobbotopia has a lot of problems. It is just how they were shaped by their world's society since day one.

I don't think this would prove that the Gods Racism is correct, it only proves Redcloak's point: that if they weren't hunted that way from the start, they would have a whole different society on this day, one that is able to be equal to the other (in Redcloak's perception of equality).
I just think that Redcloak ignores that fact and will, eventually, be confronted by it.

I'm genuinely not seeing anything about Gobbotopia society that indicates any bigger problems than any other nation has. They had a resistance problem for a while, but beyond that, things ran pretty smoothly. Hell, it looks like a much better place for a goblin to live than, say, a human living in a pile like Greysky.

[danielxcutter]

Okay. Don’t have a lot of original points, but yeah.

I think this is a good portrayal of Redcloak so far, both his thoughts and the flaws in them.

The “goblins were created as XP fodder” narrative can not be either proved or disproved at this point either way, so let’s forget about that for now. It sounds possible but it’s not from an unbiased confirmed source either.

“Goblinoids got the short end of the stick” DOES seem quite likely. I don’t think there’s been considerable evidence, but it’s a more “realistic” problem, so to speak. Even if the XP fodder narrative isn’t true, it’s quite likely that they still got a fairly raw deal when the gods were adding seed populations or whatever the correct term is. No deities to back them up and not much of a foundation to make civilizations like the other humanoid races - the biggest goblinoid civilization is Gobbotopia, and that one is a recent creation that requires a 16th-level cleric and an epic lich sorcerer.

That alone is not terribly much on its own, but it may be how some of the other problems were able to take root. Alignment problems are not something that is easy to talk about, but it is true that there are no real SOCIAL repercussions from slaughtering monstrous races en masse. Goblinoids seem to have it worse. Remember the Godsmoot vote? There were drow, kobolds, lizardfolk, orcs, and even what seemed to be a wererat(although that last one might have been an inflicted lycanthrope so maybe not a good example).

An extremely large part of Redcloak’s motivation stems from the massacre of his hometown, including many innocent non-combatants like his little sister.

That hasn’t come up yet in the comic yet, but it seems like that’s where the discussion is going.

Does this morally justify the invasion of Azure City? Not really, going to war for the sake conquering another nation is bad - regardless of species. It’s less reprehensible than what the Vector Legion are doing, because it’s partly karmic backlash and because the Legion are horrendous tyrants(especially Tarquin and Malack), but in general starting a war is not a Good thing. It’s no more or less an Evil thing than if it was a war between two groups of the same PC race or different PC races.

In another D&D 3.5e-based comic, Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes, Thaco said “War is unfair.” when trying to stop his son Complains About Names from killing the adventurer Minmax. For context, Minmax was part of an adventurer party that killed most of the war camp of the tribe the goblins were from, but at that point Minmax had lost his best friend and was practically catatonic at that point from despair.(It’s a bit complicated; can somebody else explain better than I did?) I... dunno how to really put it, but I think that kinda applies to the Azure City situation as well.

[factotum]

“Goblinoids got the short end of the stick” DOES seem quite likely. I don’t think there’s been considerable evidence, but it’s a more “realistic” problem, so to speak. Even if the XP fodder narrative isn’t true, it’s quite likely that they still got a fairly raw deal when the gods were adding seed populations or whatever the correct term is.

The main problem is simply that goblinoids are, generally, rather weak compared to other humanoid species. They're canonically smaller (although that isn't the case in the Stickverse--Redcloak should be around Belkar's size) and less intelligent. This means they're going to get forced into the parts of the world the other races don't want if they're trying to fight for territory. Of course, if they weren't usually Evil they might hit on the idea of actually co-operating with the other races in order to get better living conditions, as happened with Right-Eye's village in Start of Darkness, but Redcloak himself is certainly never going to think along those lines.

[ratfox]

RC has a point with "goblins were created to allow adventurers to gain XP"

... And he's not even asking for reparations! :-P

I'm wondering suddenly, what's Durkon's charisma?

[StragaSevera]

You know, it seems very funny that people think slaughter of goblin's village by some paladins justifies slaughter and enslaving men and women who were not paladins, never had any knowledge of this, and never had any power of influencing said paladins. It's not like Azure City is a democracy, you know?

Leavind Azure City in hands of goblins may be a practical decision in order to save the world, but it is not and can not be an ethical decision. It is a lesser evil, no less, no more.

[Fyraltari]

Them and what army?

Seriously. They lost when they had 10,000 troops and all the defenses of the city. Currently they have tens of troops, possibly dozens, and would have to fight against those same defenses. The army was a massive threat even without Xykon and Reddie. Still is. Tens of thousands strong, entrenched, well defended. Hinjo ain't got jack.
Unless I am mistaken, all the nobles took their private armies with them rather than participate in the battle and so have a few thousands professionnal soldiers collectively.
Which I believe will be Ann issue when the Gobbotopia/Azure City part of the plot get resolved. In that it wouldn’t be enough to take the city but enough to cause a lot of deaths.

All in all I expect the Azurites to be has divided as this forum on the question of retaking the homeland with the more tolerant ones (represented by the surviving paladins and the Kaitos) being willing to just settle the island and the angrier ones (being represented by the nobles and I would guess Niu at least initially) insisting they take every opportunity to fight the goblins.

The plot is clearly headed to a peaceful accord, what with it being explicit the Azurites can love fine on the island and the author’s views on the applicability of fiction to the real world and general political opinion (racism bad).

As for wether the taking of Azure City was god or ill deed, I don’t think it matters. It’s a done deed. Life pretty much never allow people to just go back to how things were. The statu quo has changed and the living need to adapt to it. As the floating magical giant head of Shojo said « evolve or die. » Throwing blame around and swearing bloody revenge never solves a damn thing. The question of how they got into this situation isn’t nearly as important as the question of where they will go from there. As it stands both people have a land they can call their own and prosper in. Sounds like a good foundation for a peace. The Azurites and the goblins won’t like each other (and may never will) and probably won’t be happy with the eventual agreement but nobody is asking them to and a good compromise is when no-one gets entirely what they want.

The Azurite Nation, ultimately, is not its land but its people. They will endure. Like they have endured every other calamity that befell them since they formed (like the collapse of the Empire they were a part of or the Realm of the Dragon’s brutal wars of conquest) the loss of their city is another hardship in a list that most likely isn’t over yet. Hopefully they can learn from it.

As for the goblins they really need to free their slaves and change that repugnant motto (and the culture of agression both suffered and inflected it represents) as their relations with the other nations are normalized.



And all the cosmological stuff need to be sorted out, too, of course.




I agree quite strongly!
I love this kind of out of the box thinking. Hyenas are social, so imagine what kind of societies they would naturally have? I love having my mind opened to new ideas while I'm having fun.

Given my (limited) knowledge of hyenas, a matriarchy of some kind. Probably one where people don’t inexplicably dress like strippers too.

[Starlit Dragon]

I think you mean matriarchy, meaning leadership by women. Such a society would be incredibly fascinating to think about and discuss, but that is for another thread.

Anyway, I am on the side of goblins keeping the city. It would be a whole lot of trouble to take back, quite possibly spark a cycle of revenge, and in the end wouldn't help the people much. Besides, saving the world requires not pissing off the goblins, which forcing them out of their greatest city would do.

[Scizor]

Is the comic not still based on 3.5e? If so, are the stats on the d20srd not the official stats? Those list the following:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

That's not part of the Core rules, but an optional variant that allows one to play Monstrous Races as player caharacters; not only is the implication that they are still monstrous races still there, but the rule is one which the Giant is rather explicitly not using since he has defined his world as one where Goblins are cannon-fodder. Also, he doesn't really care for the rules except as they pertain to established elements in the story already.

[Sindeloke]

You know, it seems very funny that people think slaughter of goblin's village by some paladins justifies slaughter and enslaving men and women who were not paladins, never had any knowledge of this, and never had any power of influencing said paladins.

It's not that strange once you remember you're arguing with The_Weirdo.

As far as the practical realities of the Azurites reclaiming their capital, a) I agree with the comments upthread that it's very weird that it's being treated like a conquered city-state rather than a partly occupied multi-city nation, but it wouldn't be the first time the Giant gently retconned minor details for the sake of a desired storyarc. Regardless, the situation as we've been presented it suggests that there aren't enough allied forces for the Azurites to take it back in a straight fight. Adventurers should be a reasonable alternative - mechanically speaking, one high-tier caster or even a properly optimized hulking hurler will wipe the floor with infinite low-level opposition - but b) the Stickverse is clearly pretty low-op and subject to strong Rule of Narrative Convenience, so that's also probably out of the running.

In other words there's no in-universe reason to argue the apparent out-of-universe declaration that Gobbotopia will stand for the foreseeable future.

This is all very "as above, so below," isn't it? Gobbotopia exists because the solution to Material Plane marginalization of goblin/oids was for them to become sufficiently powerful that marginalization was too expensive for other races. Easier to bully small scattered villages than a militarized, unified city-state. Likewise, TDO's solution to his divine marginalization is to become sufficiently powerful that the other gods find it too expensive to continue marginalizing him; easier to ignore the complaints of a lone god than to handwave the Snarl hanging over your head. And in both situations, the question is whether the instigating party has the wisdom and restraint to call a halt once they achieve their objective. So far Redcloak is doing better than I would have credited him with, which is relatively promising with regards to his boss.

[dancrilis]

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.


Without Xykon they may have helped alright - but it is different helping out after a week against new aggressive invaders who might be seeking new targets, and helping out after months against the new neighbours (who are not causing you any problems).

It is also worth remembering that as far as they know Xykon is just a sending and a teleport away and even if they knew he didn't care, Redcloak is still likely to be just a sending and either Word of Recall or Gate away.

[Fyraltari]

I think you mean matriarchy, meaning leadership by women. Such a society would be incredibly fascinating to think about and discuss, but that is for another thread.
Yes, bloody overzealous autocorrect.
I dunno, I feel like it would just be a gender-flipped patriarchy which isn’t the most original of concepts.
They’d have ****-measuring contests instead of ****-measuring ones, but that, while hilarious, only carries a society so far.