A quick and dirty fix to money in D&D

[FabulousFizban]

Money in d&d always seemed weird to me, players carrying around chests of gold and such. So I simplified things.

1)Platinum is gone. platinum is not a currency.
2)Gold takes the place of platinum.
3)Everything that cost gold now costs silver.

This means
1sp = 100cp
1gp = 10sp

That's it. Silver becomes the main currency. Day to day transactions are done in copper and big buys are done in silver. Gold remains an option for when silver becomes impractical. Silver priced items from the books can be given a copper equivalency cost (for example, if something costs 5 silver in the phb it costs 50 copper instead). If a DM wants more intricate economics the purity of the silver in a given region can become relevant a la spice and wolf.

[KorvinStarmast]

Money in d&d always seemed weird to me, players carrying around chests of gold and such. So I simplified things.

1)Platinum is gone. platinum is not a currency.
2)Gold takes the place of platinum.
3)Everything that cost gold now costs silver.

This means
1sp = 100cp
1gp = 10sp

That's it. Silver becomes the main currency. Day to day transactions are done in copper and big buys are done in silver. Gold remains an option for when silver becomes impractical. Silver priced items from the books can be given a copper equivalency cost (for example, if something costs 5 silver in the phb it costs 50 copper instead). If a DM wants more intricate economics the purity of the silver in a given region can become relevant a la spice and wolf. You are not the first person to propose this. I've seen it work in a variety of campaigns over the years. It makes finding a gold piece, or a bag of them, a big deal.
But we also changed the 1 gp = 1 xp to 1 SP = 1 XP in that case. (For games in pre WoTC editions)

[Man_Over_Game]

I can dig it.

Mine was just to never give gold, just stuff. Stuff sells for 1/3 the value, unless someone's willing to pay top-dollar for it. So instead of looting 100g from bandits, you get 100g of bandit gear. Makes sense, as most badguys would spend their gold immediately on usable resources (to collect or protect more resources) or maintenance/vices.

When you're playing a game of Starcraft, should you stockpile your resources for a rainy day, or spend it as quickly as possible? It's no coincidence that those that end up having a lot of excess resources are generally the ones that lose.

[MaxWilson]

Money in d&d always seemed weird to me, players carrying around chests of gold and such. So I simplified things.

1)Platinum is gone. platinum is not a currency.
2)Gold takes the place of platinum.
3)Everything that cost gold now costs silver.

This means
1sp = 100cp
1gp = 10sp

That's it. Silver becomes the main currency. Day to day transactions are done in copper and big buys are done in silver. Gold remains an option for when silver becomes impractical. Silver priced items from the books can be given a copper equivalency cost (for example, if something costs 5 silver in the phb it costs 50 copper instead). If a DM wants more intricate economics the purity of the silver in a given region can become relevant a la spice and wolf.

I'm sympathetic, but is changing the currency really necessary? Gold is already worth a lot. 15 gp (1/3 of a lb.) already buys you an ox, or 750 chickens. A chest of, say, 60 lb. of gold would be 3000 gp, which ought to be enough to purchase a whole chicken farm (100,000 chickens for 2000 gp) and a dozen slaves with which to run it. (The rule of thumb I'm familiar with is that historically a medieval slave sells for about 2 years' worth of their economic output, and hirelings are about 2 sp per day, so 2 years ~= 70 gp per slave, roughly 1000 gp for a dozen.) That's some serious money, no changes to RAW required.

[deljzc]

It's not that far off really.

To me it's like golds are $20 bills, electrum are $10 bills and silver is $1 bills and copper are "coins".

When you want wealth, you deal in $100's (platinums).

I mean, you go to the MAC machine, you get out $20's and then you exchange them for "change" in day-to-day activities.

You don't need to carry about more than $100 during the day. That's 5 gold pieces. 1/10th of a lb.

You deal with banks or savings or carrying large sums of money overland you get "rolls of platinum pieces" ($100's) that you really need to go to ANOTHER bank and either store or exchange for day-to-day funds.

It's not all that hard to understand really. I know the math isn't exact above (I guess it's $100, $10, $5, $1 and 10 cent pieces) to be exact. But that's the way I see it.

[NaughtyTiger]

I'm sympathetic, but is changing the currency really necessary? Gold is already worth a lot. 15 gp (1/3 of a lb.) already buys you an ox, or 750 chickens. A chest of, say, 60 lb. of gold would be 3000 gp, which ought to be enough to purchase a whole chicken farm (100,000 chickens for 2000 gp) and a dozen slaves with which to run it. (The rule of thumb I'm familiar with is that historically a medieval slave sells for about 2 years' worth of their economic output, and hirelings are about 2 sp per day, so 2 years ~= 70 gp per slave, roughly 1000 gp for a dozen.) That's some serious money, no changes to RAW required.

are you saying just give out less gold instead?

[MaxWilson]

are you saying just give out less gold instead?

Less gold than what? How much do you give out right now?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Money in d&d always seemed weird to me, players carrying around chests of gold and such. So I simplified things.

1)Platinum is gone. platinum is not a currency.
2)Gold takes the place of platinum.
3)Everything that cost gold now costs silver.

This means
1sp = 100cp
1gp = 10sp

That's it. Silver becomes the main currency. Day to day transactions are done in copper and big buys are done in silver. Gold remains an option for when silver becomes impractical. Silver priced items from the books can be given a copper equivalency cost (for example, if something costs 5 silver in the phb it costs 50 copper instead). If a DM wants more intricate economics the purity of the silver in a given region can become relevant a la spice and wolf.

I guess I'm not really clear on what the problem is and thus how it's a solution. You've changed the name of the primary currency. Players now carry chests of silver. What's the difference?

[Wizard_Lizard]

My world has it's own banking system, that stops players lugging all their cash around.

[JNAProductions]

I guess I'm not really clear on what the problem is and thus how it's a solution. You've changed the name of the primary currency. Players now carry chests of silver. What's the difference?

Echoing this.

If a DM sprung the silver standard on me, I wouldn't really care-once you get your best armor and a few odds and ends, money stops mattering in 5E.

[Luccan]

Echoing this.

If a DM sprung the silver standard on me, I wouldn't really care-once you get your best armor and a few odds and ends, money stops mattering in 5E.

Thirded. Even if the option to buy useful non-attuned magic items exists, I'm not sure what the shift from the gold-standard accomplishes.

I mean, at most it seems to make it more inconvenient to carry around the standard coinage people are using... Yay?

[C-Dude]

You could adjust the exchange rate of silver to gold.

Make 100sp = 1gp.

That way, common things are paid for in copper, equipment is paid for in silver, and the really expensive services and magic are paid in gold...which is now 10 times as valuable, so these would now be luxury items.

Otherwise, your action has devalued the metal in your setting but not changed the currency exchange in any tangible way.

[NaughtyTiger]

what is the problem that the OP is trying to solve?

[MaxWilson]

what is the problem that the OP is trying to solve?

Still waiting for your answer:


are you saying just give out less gold instead?

Less gold than what? How much do you give out right now?

What problem are YOU trying to solve?

[Lunali]

I think people have very different ideas about what's wrong with money in DnD. Personally, I think the biggest problem for a working economy is that there isn't anything smaller than a copper piece, largely because adventurers don't need to deal with that little money. For a non-adventurer, a copper piece is roughly enough to buy a meal, provided you're willing to make it yourself completely from scratch. The equivalent amount in dollars varies greatly depending on what you find important for a value conversion base, but a simple conversion that's not extremely high or low is 1cp = $1, meaning a gp is a hundred dollar bill. Adventurers on the whole (beyond a certain level) are well off enough that obtaining things that they want is more about availability than price.

[Batou1976]

I've considered making a similar change in my campaigns, since I aim to run games informed by my (imperfect) knowledge of medieval history, and silver was the standard coinage. Gold wasn't as much in circulation.
But, the feudal economy was also heavily based on barter, and in a barter economy, an individual's purchasing power includes their capacity to do labor in trade, as well as trade goods and such. Enter D20 Modern's (aka D20M) wealth bonus system.

D20M didn't have the players track their actual "cash on hand", since modern finance involves physical currency, bank accounts, debit and credit cards, credit ratings and bank loans, stocks, bonds, value of real estate and other property, etc etc. In short, it's complex, so a PC's "purchasing power" isn't accurately reflected in just the dollar bills in their wallet. But all these things are also too cumbersome to track in an RPG, so of course they abstracted it. :smallwink: Instead, characters and organizations have a "wealth bonus" and things they want to buy have a "purchase DC"; my PC might have a WB of +10, and goes to buy a pistol with PDC of 15. So, 1d20+10 against DC 15 to determine if I can acquire that shiny new Springfield M1911. Success means, of course, I bought it. Failure means perhaps I didn't have enough cash on hand or in the bank, maybe my credit cards have too high a balance, etc, or maybe the gun shop just didn't have one on hand to sell me.

Seems to me it shouldn't be too hard to adapt this into D&D. As for what "problem" would it solve? Well, not really a big one, but it would at least let all of us not have to be real concerned with how many coins they found on an adventure, and not slow down play (at least at low levels) with searching every dead goblin, kobold, and orc's pouches for 1d4cp.

[JackPhoenix]

The problem with money in D&D isn't what's used as the default currency. It's pretty much irrelevant if it's gold, silver, colorful shells, teef or credits. The problem is that there's no real economy and the prices of goods and services are more-or-less arbitrary, and all over the place.

[Luccan]

Where are these TTRPGs that accurately simulate real-world economics and also don't make it the focus of the game?

[Zhorn]

I'm all for DM tweaking the cost-value systems of coinage in their games.
The biggest hurdle I find is DMs finding that balance point in how much loot they award to their players in relation to how much they intend for the players to be spending, all within the context of how cheap/expensive the world that they are playing in is.

[JellyPooga]

I've considered making a similar change in my campaigns, since I aim to run games informed by my (imperfect) knowledge of medieval history, and silver was the standard coinage. Gold wasn't as much in circulation.
But, the feudal economy was also heavily based on barter, and in a barter economy, an individual's purchasing power includes their capacity to do labor in trade, as well as trade goods and such. Enter D20 Modern's (aka D20M) wealth bonus system.

D20M didn't have the players track their actual "cash on hand", since modern finance involves physical currency, bank accounts, debit and credit cards, credit ratings and bank loans, stocks, bonds, value of real estate and other property, etc etc. In short, it's complex, so a PC's "purchasing power" isn't accurately reflected in just the dollar bills in their wallet. But all these things are also too cumbersome to track in an RPG, so of course they abstracted it. :smallwink: Instead, characters and organizations have a "wealth bonus" and things they want to buy have a "purchase DC"; my PC might have a WB of +10, and goes to buy a pistol with PDC of 15. So, 1d20+10 against DC 15 to determine if I can acquire that shiny new Springfield M1911. Success means, of course, I bought it. Failure means perhaps I didn't have enough cash on hand or in the bank, maybe my credit cards have too high a balance, etc, or maybe the gun shop just didn't have one on hand to sell me.

Seems to me it shouldn't be too hard to adapt this into D&D. As for what "problem" would it solve? Well, not really a big one, but it would at least let all of us not have to be real concerned with how many coins they found on an adventure, and not slow down play (at least at low levels) with searching every dead goblin, kobold, and orc's pouches for 1d4cp.

Plenty of systems have a more abstract monetary system and there really is a lot to be said for it. Dark Heresy has its Requisition system, allowing for characters to be specifically built around aquiring the best gear. The One Ring has its Treasure Points system, which doesn't differentiate between what the wealth is, just it's weight-to-value ratio (1pt of treasure weighs 1pt of encumbrance, whether it be silver candlsticks, chests of gold or bolts of silk). Many games largely ignore or downplay the whole idea of acquiring wealth and better gear as an in-game concept; GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness games, FATE and more pretty much skirt the idea, focusing more on player abilities than equipment and items.

Personally, I'm not too much of a fan of randomly determining whether or not you can purchase an item; either you can afford it or you can't. Rolling a die to see if you get a shiny new toy opens up the gates to absurdity and abuse (Player: "Natural Twenty! Now I own a Plasma Cannon!" GM: "But...we're playing D&D...."). I do like the more abstract concept of a "wealth" stat; Call of Cthulhu does it well with Credit Rating, I think; representing not only how much cash on hand you'd typically have available, but also favours, lines of credit and even property that can in theory be liquidated for additional cash if required. If you have a certain amount of Credit Rating, it just allows you to purchase things of a given value (within reason) without detrimental impact on your CR; i.e. either you can afford nice things or you can't. No minutiae of treasure tracking required.

Where something like this excels is in the ability to increase your "wealth" stat at the expense of current cash-on-hand; representing purchases of property, investment in business or even things like buying political clout or favours; hordes of treasure can easily be distributed as a certain value of "wealth stat" that the players have the choice of either spending as a lump sum or investing into their collective or respective "wealth" scores. For example (NB- arbitrary numbers incoming); a horde might be worth 10 "wealth", which the players can reserve as points that can be spent wholesale on a single purchase at that value OR they could "spend" it increasing the party Wealth score from 4 to 5, allowing them to afford any items of value 5 or less from then on.

[HappyDaze]

The problem with money in D&D isn't what's used as the default currency. It's pretty much irrelevant if it's gold, silver, colorful shells, teef or credits. The problem is that there's no real economy and the prices of goods and services are more-or-less arbitrary, and all over the place.

Exactly this. The currency rules don't matter, much as the encumbrance rules don't matter, much as just about every exploration-based aspect doesn't matter...

But hey, it's got a swell combat system (but not my favorite by a long shot).

[Yunru]

Exactly this. The currency rules don't matter, much as the encumbrance rules don't matter

Ironic you bring that up, encumbrance is the only reason to care about what form your coinage takes.

[HappyDaze]

Ironic you bring that up, encumbrance is the only reason to care about what form your coinage takes.

This is a game that defaults to the weakest PC being unencumbered while carrying up to 120 lbs. That's a whole lotta coins.

[Yunru]

50 coins to the pound.
But that's atop your other stuff, so you quickly find yourself stuffing yourself so full of coins you can't move, wildshaping into a Giant Elk, loading up with even more coins, then taking fall damage high enough to knock you out of wildshape having to convert up.

[MaxWilson]

50 coins to the pound.
But that's atop your other stuff, so you quickly find yourself stuffing yourself so full of coins you can't move, wildshaping into a Giant Elk, loading up with even more coins, then taking fall damage high enough to knock you out of wildshape having to convert up.

Just how much money do your PCs find themselves hauling out of the dungeon anyway? It sounds like you're talking about hundreds of thousands of gp. Are you?

[Yunru]

Just how much money do your PCs find themselves hauling out of the dungeon anyway? It sounds like you're talking about hundreds of thousands of gp. Are you?

They found a cavern full of gold in the middle of nowhere. Literally more than they could carry.

[NaughtyTiger]

Still waiting for your answer:
Less gold than what? How much do you give out right now?
What problem are YOU trying to solve?


I was trying to understand your post in relation to the OP's post.
I assumed that you meant give out less gold than what the OP was giving out.

Your response to me made me realize that I didn't understand why the OP posted.
If I didn't understand that, then I prolly couldn't understand your response in context.

[deljzc]

The problem with money in D&D isn't what's used as the default currency. It's pretty much irrelevant if it's gold, silver, colorful shells, teef or credits. The problem is that there's no real economy and the prices of goods and services are more-or-less arbitrary, and all over the place.

I think this hits in on the problem.

It would be easiest to explain (like people have tried) what a copper or gold piece really is equivalent to in OUR economy and then backtrack into trying to cost out goods and services based on that ideology (understanding it will be skewed that it is a middle-age, craftsmanship economy and not mechanized or industrialized).

If we assume the .10 cents, $1, $10, $100 (for copper, silver, gold and platinum respectively), then some thing make sense:

Light Crossbow is $250
Longsword is $150
Leather Armor is $100

But other things not so much:

1 chicken is then $0.20 cents
A poor lifestyle is $2 per day and modest only costs you $10 per day
Full Plate armor costs $15,000
Blanket costs $5 while the Sheep cost $20

I mean, you have to start somewhere in your brain and convert it to real money just so you can sort of decide "does this price sound reasonable?"

There is no problem changing the cost of things in the Players Handbook. Make your own spreadsheet, hand it out to your players and "poof", problem solved (if there is a problem).

I know many DM's that create imaginary, simple banking methods so players can acquire and accumulate wealth. Possibly saving up for strongholds/bases or followers/servants.

[Yunru]

Those all (mostly) make sense though, when you account for medieval availability.
Chickens are easy to raise on very little ground, and reproduce relatively fast. It won't be hard to find someone to buy a chicken from, because most families will have at least two or three.
Plate armour has to be tailored to the wearer and is also very costly in terms of materials.
Wool is very available, being just sheep hair, but sheep themselves take wide open grounds to raise, and that also increases the amount of effort that needs to be put in protecting them from predators.

[TigerT20]

Okay, there's a lot of people simply throwing number around about what gold pieces are worth, so I've dug up this reddit thread to make sure we're using the same values; everyone seems to be around the right area anyway, with 1 gp = $100

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9e02c4/5e_the_approximate_value_of_one_gp_in_usd/

Another thing that should be pointed out for those that don't go and read that thread is, according to this value, the average hoard for a CR 0-4 monster is over $20,000. That's what you get for anything between the loot of a kobold den to the treasure of a flameskull. Makes me wonder why there are so few adventurers around.

[Yunru]

I've dug up this reddit thread to make sure we're using the same values; everyone seems to be around the right area anyway, with 1 gp = $100
Hard pass on the cancer link, but the number is roughly accurate, in the same way 100 Yen is worth roughly £/$1: It's not a perfect conversion, but it's a good enough ballpark.


Makes me wonder why there are so few adventurers around.
Who do you think the treasure originally belonged to? :P

[Zhorn]

Makes me wonder why there are so few adventurers around.
Dungeons are natural money accumulators.

Think of them like an ecosystem that feeds off adventurers and monsters.

Take a standard cave, doesn't even need to be that big. Place in that cave a single shiny thing (say 1 gp)

A kobold find the cave and the shiny. They like the cave and decide to convert it into a den (the cave is now a dungeon)

Kobold invites all their other tribe members to come there, store their own shiny things (increasing the dungeon's wealth), and dig additional tunnels and room (increasing the dungeon's size).

This kobold isn't a dunce, he knows outside threats will seek to steal his tribes shiny things, so they build traps (increasing the dungeon's deadliness)

1st level adventurers come across this cave, underestimate the kobolds living there, and get Tucker'd into an assortment of skewered meats (helping to keep the adventuring population down). The little equipment they bring with them is added to the dungeon's wealth. After a few failed invasion attempts, these kobolds now have a tidy (if still rather small) CR 0-4 Treasure Hoard.

This starts drawing the attention of bigger creatures and higher level adventurers.
Bigger monsters finding the cave decide they want to live here now, be it by wiping out the kobolds, becoming their new boss, or acting in service. In any case they live here now, increasing the dungeon's CR, and be it by their own work or that of other occupants, need to increase the dungeon's size further to accommodate them.
With the bigger monster now living here, stronger adventuring group are slain, adding greater amounts of shiny things to the dungeon's hoard.

The cycle continues until an adventuring group succeeds and loots the dungeon.
The longer it takes with the more failed invasions, the higher the wealth of the dungeon.
The more wealth, the bigger monsters it attracts.
The bigger the monster that inhabits the dungeon, the more room is needed to be added to accommodate them.
The larger the dungeon, the more threats are able to occupy the space (traps, minions, etc)

Afterwards an empty dungeon unattended attract the attention of something looking for a lair to store THEIR shiny things, starting the cycle all over again.

edit: blue since it's a tongue in cheek explanation

[NaughtyTiger]

...
This starts drawing the attention of bigger creatures and higher level adventurers.
Bigger monsters finding the cave decide they want to live here now, be it by wiping out the kobolds, becoming their new boss, or acting in service. In any case they live here now, increasing the dungeon's CR, and be it by their own work or that of other occupants, need to increase the dungeon's size further to accommodate them.
With the bigger monster now living here, stronger adventuring group are slain, adding greater amounts of shiny things to the dungeon's hoard.
...

this make a lot of sense as to why there are such awesome dungeons filled with goodies.
I really like the narrative but it doesn't address the accumulation of the hoard for the low CR creature. (if you agree with the math in the reddit)


the average hoard for a CR 0-4 monster is over $20,000.

a sentient monster with 20K should be able to buy a decent amount of influence in a small town

[Yunru]

I really like the narrative but it doesn't address the accumulation of the hoard for the low CR creature. (if you agree with the math in the reddit)
Yeah, I'm going to retract my comment about it being ballpack right, because a day's lodging at an inn, some cheese, and some ale costing $100?

[Democratus]

a sentient monster with 20K should be able to buy a decent amount of influence in a small town

Only if the town allows monsters to participate in their economy.

If the world has a mythic boundary between civilization and the wilderness, then one is a place for men and the other is a place for monsters. Monsters are not part of the world of men.

If the world is such that an ogre can wander in from the woods and spend gold to buy food and supplies - then the ogre isn't a monster. He's just a large hermit. :smallsmile:

[Yunru]

He's just a large hermit. :smallsmile:No, that's only if he curls up into a shell he carries on his back.

[Democratus]

No, that's only if he curls up into a shell he carries on his back.

Ha! And now I have a new creature to introduce to the campaign! :smallbiggrin:

[NaughtyTiger]

Only if the town allows monsters to participate in their economy.

If the world has a mythic boundary between civilization and the wilderness, then one is a place for men and the other is a place for monsters. Monsters are not part of the world of men.

If the world is such that an ogre can wander in from the woods and spend gold to buy food and supplies - then the ogre isn't a monster. He's just a large hermit. :smallsmile:

I fully get that difference. But I contend that there is a $$ amount that will let a group crossover.
20K per monster in a hoard is prolly close to the transition point (assuming they didn't plunder said hoard from the town)
They won't be accepted as equals, but able to buy a measure of influence.

This explains why everyone knows a beholder named Xanathar



No, that's only if he curls up into a shell he carries on his back.
ouch...

[Talakeal]

I assume the problem the OP is trying to solve is that gold in D&D is worth significantly less than it is IRL.

I personally don't see this as a problem; its a fantasy world, and one of those fantastic properties is that gold is more common than on Earth, but it does rub a lot of people the wrong way.

I actually find I have the opposite problem; I want to be able to have huge fantastic treasures like Smaug's horde, but if you do the math on how much actual gold is involved it is well beyond anything the game can handle by several orders of magnitude.

[Yunru]

I actually find I have the opposite problem; I want to be able to have huge fantastic treasures like Smaug's horde, but if you do the math on how much actual gold is involved it is well beyond anything the game can handle by several orders of magnitude.
Depending on when in the party's career you do it, that's not an issue: There's only so much they can carry, and if they leave it's vulnerable to looting.

[Misterwhisper]

The issue in 5e is that you get a good amount of gold, but there is just not much to spend it on.

Fighter last campaign had multiple thousands of gold but nothing to buy because unlike other editions for some reason it is easy to sell app those useless magic items but there is almost no market to buy them.

Heck I spent 400 gold having my weapon and scabbard use a built in lock so only I knew how to draw it.

Completely pointless but I had nothing better to buy.

[Telwar]

Yeah, I'm going to retract my comment about it being ballpack right, because a day's lodging at an inn, some cheese, and some ale costing $100?

To be fair, a decent hotel with decent food can easily run $100/night. I stayed overnight at a Hampton Inn the day after Christmas, and between the room and taxes, it was $120...and that doesn't count the supper at the restaurant next door.

[MaxWilson]

I was trying to understand your post in relation to the OP's post.
I assumed that you meant give out less gold than what the OP was giving out.

Your response to me made me realize that I didn't understand why the OP posted.
If I didn't understand that, then I prolly couldn't understand your response in context.

Ah, okay, got it. We are both on the same page now.


I think this hits in on the problem.

It would be easiest to explain (like people have tried) what a copper or gold piece really is equivalent to in OUR economy and then backtrack into trying to cost out goods and services based on that ideology (understanding it will be skewed that it is a middle-age, craftsmanship economy and not mechanized or industrialized).

If we assume the .10 cents, $1, $10, $100 (for copper, silver, gold and platinum respectively), then some thing make sense:

Light Crossbow is $250
Longsword is $150
Leather Armor is $100

But other things not so much:

1 chicken is then $0.20 cents
A poor lifestyle is $2 per day and modest only costs you $10 per day
Full Plate armor costs $15,000
Blanket costs $5 while the Sheep cost $20

I mean, you have to start somewhere in your brain and convert it to real money just so you can sort of decide "does this price sound reasonable?"

There is no problem changing the cost of things in the Players Handbook. Make your own spreadsheet, hand it out to your players and "poof", problem solved (if there is a problem).

I know many DM's that create imaginary, simple banking methods so players can acquire and accumulate wealth. Possibly saving up for strongholds/bases or followers/servants.

My headcanon is more like 1 gp = $100 than $10. $2500 for a light crossbow sounds fairly reasonable, fairly comparable to the price of a modern-day rifle for a similar combat role. A cow for $1000 also sounds reasonable. $2 for a chicken is cheap, but maybe it's a scrawny chicken, not one of the gigantic modern breeds--or maybe those larger breeds are still available for 2sp instead of 2cp.

Full plate = 1500 gp ~= $150,000 actually sounds fairly logical to me. When you meet someone in full plate, you should view it as either a luxury good and status symbol (like a sports car, if the person isn't in combat often enough to really need full plate) or a sign of a very dangerous person (if they ARE in combat often enough to justify the expense).

================================================== ======


Okay, there's a lot of people simply throwing number around about what gold pieces are worth, so I've dug up this reddit thread to make sure we're using the same values; everyone seems to be around the right area anyway, with 1 gp = $100

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9e02c4/5e_the_approximate_value_of_one_gp_in_usd/

Another thing that should be pointed out for those that don't go and read that thread is, according to this value, the average hoard for a CR 0-4 monster is over $20,000. That's what you get for anything between the loot of a kobold den to the treasure of a flameskull. Makes me wonder why there are so few adventurers around.

IMO the only good answer for that has to be "because it's crazy dangerous if you don't have plot armor." I don't like worlds with lots of adventurers in them, or games where death isn't a serious threat every game session.

================================================== ======


Yeah, I'm going to retract my comment about it being ballpack right, because a day's lodging at an inn, some cheese, and some ale costing $100?

Sounds about right honestly. There's nowhere in my town where you could get all that for much less than $100. Inns/hotels/hostels are expensive, have lots of overhead. There are probably rural towns in America where you could get a room for closer to $40, but also plenty of places where $200 a day is the going rate.

================================================== ======


I assume the problem the OP is trying to solve is that gold in D&D is worth significantly less than it is IRL.

I personally don't see this as a problem; its a fantasy world, and one of those fantastic properties is that gold is more common than on Earth, but it does rub a lot of people the wrong way.

I actually find I have the opposite problem; I want to be able to have huge fantastic treasures like Smaug's horde, but if you do the math on how much actual gold is involved it is well beyond anything the game can handle by several orders of magnitude.

Hmmm, interesting problem. Have you tried creating and placing such treasures anyway, but then Indiana Jonesing them to frustrate attempts to claim the whole thing? Getting away with a pocket full of treasure from a stupendous hoard is classic. (Or a backpack full, plus a couple of choice magic items.) Either:

(1) The treasure has too many (immortal?) guardians to defeat them all, but you manage to distract and/or defeat enough of them to get five minutes alone with the treasure and stuff your pockets full before running away at top speed; or

(2) The treasury self-destructs shortly after you gain access to it, either BECAUSE you gained access or perhaps because it was already scheduled to do so. Maybe the fact that the Invincible Fortress of the Queen of Air and Darkness has been inexplicably abandoned and set to self-destruct in 24 hours is what gave you the opening in the first place to loot the (magnificent!) scraps, although you have to fight off a few scavenges and lab rejects whom she didn't bother to take with her. (Shadow Beholders, cybernetically-enhanced frost giants, a demon king or two...)

================================================== ======


This explains why everyone knows a beholder named Xanathar

Nitpick: according to Volo's Guide, "Xanathar" is a title, not a personal name. The current Xanathar has some other name that I've forgotten, like Quessoth or Q'kilk or something.

================================================== ======


The issue in 5e is that you get a good amount of gold, but there is just not much to spend it on.

Fighter last campaign had multiple thousands of gold but nothing to buy because unlike other editions for some reason it is easy to sell app those useless magic items but there is almost no market to buy them.

Heck I spent 400 gold having my weapon and scabbard use a built in lock so only I knew how to draw it.

Completely pointless but I had nothing better to buy.

You could buy a battalion of 600 crossbow-armed mercenaries to help you kill things, or a bunch of Purple Worm poison for your weapons. Either one could easily cost you 100,000 gp per year while tripling your combat power, or better.

[Batou1976]

The problem with money in D&D isn't what's used as the default currency. It's pretty much irrelevant if it's gold, silver, colorful shells, teef or credits. The problem is that there's no real economy and the prices of goods and services are more-or-less arbitrary, and all over the place.

I feel this, SO much. :smallsigh: Especially where armor prices are concerned. The PHB has the cost of a mail shirt at 50gp, and a breastplate is 400gp. These prices should probably be reversed- breastplates and brigandines replaced mail as preferred armors not only because they offer better protection than mail, but also because they are far less labor intensive and thus less costly to make. I'm sure the designers were thinking "the better armors are more technologically advanced and thus more expensive than the older, inferior tech", but, sorry guys. Y'all apparently forgot that as newer, better tech arises and matures, thus reducing its cost and replacing the old tech, the older tech can become more expensive to produce than the new stuff.
It seems they instead just went with "old=cheap, new= pricey" and then just started pulling numbers out of their butts. :smallannoyed:

[Tvtyrant]

Specie based economies never really existed, prior to paper money they were debt based with a tiny amount of money circulating very rapidly. Say I owed Joe money for seed, he having a better farm and I having eaten mine in a bad year. I sell some of my crop and pay Joe a nominal amount, then probably borrow more seed. The amount of debt is hundreds of times higher then the amount of money to service it, and eventually we have a bust and the local government declares most debts null. We restart and do it again every 50 years or so.

Coinage really only mattered as a debt standard and for the payment of soldiers, which is one of the reasons soldiers costed so much. They insisted on actual pay at some point, so even though their wages seemed low they were in money far higher than what existed in circulation.

[Joe the Rat]

1 gold to USD100, 2020 valuation, works pretty well at the bread and chickens level. For full effect, you probably need brass and bits for low end purchases, since copper is USD1. But keep this in mind as a way to translate the buying power of the coin.

And for everyone that is not a king or a merchant (or an adventurer), everything should be in silvers and coppers. You should also tune your eating out expenses accordingly, but lifestyle upkeep isn't too far off.

This also makes adventurers really expensively kitted out - you are essentially toting military-grade weapons and armor. Most common folk can't afford a sword, much less be able to use it. Which is why my city watch use spear and truncheon primarily, and the crossbows are definitely city property.


It's not perfect - fantasy lifestyle and expense does not perfectly align to modern concepts, but it does tell you why flashng gold is a good way to get stabbed.
(It's all about the Dragons)

[MaxWilson]

1 gold to USD100, 2020 valuation, works pretty well at the bread and chickens level. For full effect, you probably need brass and bits for low end purchases, since copper is USD1. But keep this in mind as a way to translate the buying power of the coin.

And for everyone that is not a king or a merchant (or an adventurer), everything should be in silvers and coppers. You should also tune your eating out expenses accordingly, but lifestyle upkeep isn't too far off.

This also makes adventurers really expensively kitted out - you are essentially toting military-grade weapons and armor. Most common folk can't afford a sword, much less be able to use it. Which is why my city watch use spear and truncheon primarily, and the crossbows are definitely city property.

This also makes random bandits and orcs curiously wealthy, and you may need to explain somehow where they are getting their armaments from. (A malign conspiracy maybe?)

[Tvtyrant]

This also makes random bandits and orcs curiously wealthy, and you may need to explain somehow where they are getting their armaments from. (A malign conspiracy maybe?)

Again though, that assumes money is exchanging hands. Sure platemail costs $18000 for a stranger to buy, but the local lord gets it for $20 a year life payment and protection from rival smiths. The swords are made under the family plan of marrying the smith's son to a merchant's daughter and the smith's daughter to one of the higher ranked men at arms, etc.

[MaxWilson]

Edit: BTW TvTyrant, I didn't say so above but I enjoyed your post above on species economies not existing. I didn't have anything to say in response but I found it thought-provoking. (Mostly it made me think about how silly it is for monsters to have currency as treasure in the first place, outside the Mythic Underworld dungeon at least. Two easy alternative rewards are bounties, and selling monster body parts for magical purposes.)


Again though, that assumes money is exchanging hands. Sure platemail costs $18000 for a stranger to buy, but the local lord gets it for $20 a year life payment and protection from rival smiths. The swords are made under the family plan of marrying the smith's son to a merchant's daughter and the smith's daughter to one of the higher ranked men at arms, etc.

It doesn't assume money is changing hands, it just assumes scarcity of military-grade arms and equipment. How did these orcs and bandits get their hands on stuff that you can't normally get? [cue malign conspiracy]

The alternative is to make it a war-torn land where military-grade arms and equipment is commonplace, but that's not the scenario we were discussing. (We were discussing a scenario where things like crossbows are rare, expensive, and definitely city property.)

[Lord Vukodlak]

Not to long ago I came up with my own bit of currency. The most important part was to keep the abbreviations the same to prevent confusion.
New Currency System
"Preator"=PP A gold coin(roughly the size of a dime)
"Groschen"=GP; A silver coin (roughly the size of a nickle)
"Shilling"=SP; A bronze and slightly silver coin(roughly the size of a penny)
"Cenari"=CP A copper coin(roughly the size of a quarter)


I guess I'm not really clear on what the problem is and thus how it's a solution. You've changed the name of the primary currency. Players now carry chests of silver. What's the difference?
Immersion it makes gold too "common"

[Tvtyrant]

Edit: BTW TvTyrant, I didn't say so above but I enjoyed your post above on species economies not existing. I didn't have anything to say in response but I found it thought-provoking. (Mostly it made me think about how silly it is for monsters to have currency as treasure in the first place, outside the Mythic Underworld dungeon at least. Two easy alternative rewards are bounties, and selling monster body parts for magical purposes.)



It doesn't assume money is changing hands, it just assumes scarcity of military-grade arms and equipment. How did these orcs and bandits get their hands on stuff that you can't normally get? [cue malign conspiracy]

The alternative is to make it a war-torn land where military-grade arms and equipment is commonplace, but that's not the scenario we were discussing. (We were discussing a scenario where things like crossbows are rare, expensive, and definitely city property.)

Thanks! Glad my degree is useful once in a blue moon :)


Yeah fair. Bandits should have a lot more slings and spears, almost never swords unless they are companies released from a recent conflict.

[Batou1976]

Plenty of systems have a more abstract monetary system and there really is a lot to be said for it. Dark Heresy has its Requisition system, allowing for characters to be specifically built around aquiring the best gear. The One Ring has its Treasure Points system, which doesn't differentiate between what the wealth is, just it's weight-to-value ratio (1pt of treasure weighs 1pt of encumbrance, whether it be silver candlsticks, chests of gold or bolts of silk). Many games largely ignore or downplay the whole idea of acquiring wealth and better gear as an in-game concept; GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness games, FATE and more pretty much skirt the idea, focusing more on player abilities than equipment and items.

Hmmm. I have no experience with any of those systems, other than a single session of WoD waaaaaaay back in 1994. :smalleek: I did buy the One Ring PDF from DrivethruRPG not too long ago but I haven't got very far into it yet.

Fantasy Craft has what is to me an interesting take on abstracting wealth and property acquisition. It calls its system "Wealth", like d20M, but it doesn't work anything like in that game. Instead, you have a Wealth rating based on IIRC your level, social status, and perhaps Reputation (another subsystem of FC). Your Wealth rating determines the amount and grade of equipment you can possess- if your Wealth allows you two magic weapons, and you already possess that many, if during the course of the adventure you acquire a third, once it's over you have to determine which of the three to give away (but don't worry: gifting powerful equipment to the right people or organizations can enhance your Reputation)- as well as how much cash you have on hand at the start of each adventure. That's right. FC's Wealth system doesn't do away with coinage, but it's really only used to deal with incidental expenses during the adventure- bribes, paying for lodging and meals, hiring a dogsbody for a week, buying a wagon if your scheme to defeat the BBEG requires it and you don't already have one, etc. It is possible for you to gain coin during the adventure, and even end with more money than you started with, but that excess is assumed to be spent on living expenses, revelry and dissipation, and so on, by the time the next adventure begins.


Personally, I'm not too much of a fan of randomly determining whether or not you can purchase an item; either you can afford it or you can't. Rolling a die to see if you get a shiny new toy opens up the gates to absurdity and abuse (Player: "Natural Twenty! Now I own a Plasma Cannon!" GM: "But...we're playing D&D...."). I do like the more abstract concept of a "wealth" stat; Call of Cthulhu does it well with Credit Rating, I think; representing not only how much cash on hand you'd typically have available, but also favours, lines of credit and even property that can in theory be liquidated for additional cash if required. If you have a certain amount of Credit Rating, it just allows you to purchase things of a given value (within reason) without detrimental impact on your CR; i.e. either you can afford nice things or you can't. No minutiae of treasure tracking required.

Well, a situation like that shouldn't really ever happen because in d20M, AFAIK and IIRC a natural 20 on a Wealth check 1) isn't an automatic success- with a WB of +5, you're not buying a DC 27 item no matter what you roll- and 2) doesn't allow you to purchase an item that just isn't available; a PC in a campaign set during Prohibition can't buy a Ruger AR-556 just because they rolled a 20, and a DM who allows it to happen deserves what he gets. :smallamused:

That being said, if you just don't care for this particular way of abstracting economic activity, I've got no beef with that. You do you. :smallwink:



Where something like this excels is in the ability to increase your "wealth" stat at the expense of current cash-on-hand; representing purchases of property, investment in business or even things like buying political clout or favours; hordes of treasure can easily be distributed as a certain value of "wealth stat" that the players have the choice of either spending as a lump sum or investing into their collective or respective "wealth" scores. For example (NB- arbitrary numbers incoming); a horde might be worth 10 "wealth", which the players can reserve as points that can be spent wholesale on a single purchase at that value OR they could "spend" it increasing the party Wealth score from 4 to 5, allowing them to afford any items of value 5 or less from then on.

Intriguing. :smallcool::smallcool:

Speaking of property, and back to FC's Wealth system- getting your Wealth rating high enough also allows you to possess property: an inn, a fortified manor house, etc. IIRC you don't really have to bother with the intricacies of how you acquired it; if your Wealth indicates you own property, and you wish to actually do so, you just work the details out w the DM, and the game assumes you had the cash on hand to buy it, or it was an inheritance or whatnot (it's not really important).

[Lunali]

Another thing that should be pointed out for those that don't go and read that thread is, according to this value, the average hoard for a CR 0-4 monster is over $20,000. That's what you get for anything between the loot of a kobold den to the treasure of a flameskull. Makes me wonder why there are so few adventurers around.

Take the average lifespan of a level 1 PC. Assume that NPC adventurers roll 3d6 in order for stats and can't choose most classes due to various reasons (bloodline, no gods that believe in them, not angry enough, etc.). You end up with a lot of fighters and rogues with very short life expectancies.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, there's a lot of people simply throwing number around about what gold pieces are worth, so I've dug up this reddit thread to make sure we're using the same values; everyone seems to be around the right area anyway, with 1 gp = $100

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9e02c4/5e_the_approximate_value_of_one_gp_in_usd/

Another thing that should be pointed out for those that don't go and read that thread is, according to this value, the average hoard for a CR 0-4 monster is over $20,000. That's what you get for anything between the loot of a kobold den to the treasure of a flameskull. Makes me wonder why there are so few adventurers around.

Yeah but I think that makes sense. 20k is a tiny amount of money, if you couldn't make that in a single operation risking your life makes no sense.

[NaughtyTiger]

Nitpick: according to Volo's Guide, "Xanathar" is a title, not a personal name. The current Xanathar has some other name that I've forgotten, like Quessoth or Q'kilk or something.

good nitpick


Yeah but I think that makes sense. 20k is a tiny amount of money, if you couldn't make that in a single operation risking your life makes no sense.

you can hire a band of mercs for much less, shouldn't they have the same sense of self-preservation?

[Joe the Rat]

This also makes random bandits and orcs curiously wealthy, and you may need to explain somehow where they are getting their armaments from. (A malign conspiracy maybe?)

Here I think we're running into genre aesthetics vs mechanics vs economy. Bandits and Goblins wield scimitars. Why? Because we expect dangerous enemies to have swords, and since these are Dex-primary NPCs, to make them effective they are kitted with one of the most expensive swords in the game. And then there's the armor - but these low level flunkies are usually in leather, about as cheap as you can get and still be passably sneaky.

Conspiracy makes for a good plot seed. The fact that we have to say "curiously high-quality armament for X" to make it stick with players leaves a problem with expectation.

I have a couple of different ideas on ways to deal with this:

1) Past success: They've defeated a few traveling merchants, guards, etc. While you can spend money and trade goods, weapons tend to be harder to pawn. For marauders, getting those things is half the reason you raid. If you want some first-timer outlaws, give 'em padded armor and some variations of farm implements stuck on sticks.

2) Homemade goods: You got a decent outlander in your crew? You probably have a capable fletcher. Maybe even a bowyer. I'd argue you should see more shortbows for highwaymen and bandits, since this is an essential tool every farm should have. As well as a bit of a smithy. Marauders should have their own smiths at the warcamp, and definitely in their home. They may not even be weapons per se, but a chopped down scythe blade fitted to a handle. It might work as a scimitar mechanically, but good luck selling it as such.

3) It's a bit rubbish: We don't have a quality system for weapon mechanics, but one of the AL conceits works here - nobody's going to buy that garbage, except maybe as scrap metal. The weapons are poor quality, both in design as well as material - far below the standard of a weapon-seller. They may not have been maintained well. Cheap, used weapons from the black market presents an... unexpected option. They work, but not necessarily for long.
If you want to do something with this mechanically, weapon breakage on a nat 1, or armor damage on taking a crit can set a mechanic for this difference in standard.

You could also bring in cultural bias - nobody wants a goblin blade.

[Luccan]

As far as orcs and other groups of humanoids that aren't displaced outlaws from whatever kingdom you're in: there's really no reason they can't know how to work metal. This "curiously rich" band of orcs is from an entire tribe that, just like every other village and clan within 500 miles, has smiths. If the orcs value battle like most orcs classically do, it makes sense much of their riches would be poured into weaponry and armor.

[KorvinStarmast]

The problem with money in D&D isn't what's used as the default currency. It's pretty much irrelevant if it's gold, silver, colorful shells, teef or credits. The problem is that there's no real economy and the prices of goods and services are more-or-less arbitrary, and all over the place. D&D wasn't ever built as an economics emulation. GP is a way to keep score. And in 5e, it is a way to afford certain gems needed for casting spells - in our shared world, my brother and I enforce that consumed component thing where a spell requires it. A couple of times, I've invested a 50 GP ruby into casting continual flame on a mace or a staff to give to someone as part of the encounter. This isn't a video game. Recently, our Barbarian is tired of the warhorse he rides being easy to hit, so we all pooled our money and loot and are having plate barding made for the war horse. That's a fun thing to do with money.
Where are these TTRPGs that accurately simulate real-world economics and also don't make it the focus of the game? Nowhere, I am guessing. :smallwink:

Who do you think the treasure originally belonged to? :P Heh, isn't that the eternal question?
[COLOR="#0000FF"]Dungeons are natural money accumulators. Think of them like an ecosystem that feeds off adventurers and monsters. Brilliant post. :smallbiggrin:
The issue in 5e is that you get a good amount of gold, but there is just not much to spend it on. See my post above. Gems for consumable spell components.
This also makes random bandits and orcs curiously wealthy, and you may need to explain somehow where they are getting their armaments from. (A malign conspiracy maybe?) Looting the dead from battlefields; from the slain caravan guards of the last caravan they successfully ambushed; in trade from (fill in the blank) ...
(Joe covers this in more detail than I did.

As far as orcs and other groups of humanoids that aren't displaced outlaws from whatever kingdom you're in: there's really no reason they can't know how to work metal. This "curiously rich" band of orcs is from an entire tribe that, just like every other village and clan within 500 miles, has smiths. If the orcs value battle like most orcs classically do, it makes sense much of their riches would be poured into weaponry and armor. The ax is one of the older forms of metal weapons, if I recall my 'weapons history' studies from ages ago. Not as difficult to make as a sword, very effective as both tool and as weapon ...

[LibraryOgre]

I prefer the AD&D method.

1 sp = 10 cp
1 ep = 10 sp
1 gp = 2 ep = 20 sp
1 pp = 5 gp = 10 ep = 100 sp

To put it in American currency, 1 sp is $1. An ep is a Hamilton, a gp is a Jackson, and a pp is a Benjamin. CP are about worth a dime.

Don't even have to think about it. Stuff has a cost in silver equal to their cost in dollars. The rest is just math.

[deljzc]

I prefer the AD&D method.

1 sp = 10 cp
1 ep = 10 sp
1 gp = 2 ep = 20 sp
1 pp = 5 gp = 10 ep = 100 sp

To put it in American currency, 1 sp is $1. An ep is a Hamilton, a gp is a Jackson, and a pp is a Benjamin. CP are about worth a dime.

Don't even have to think about it. Stuff has a cost in silver equal to their cost in dollars. The rest is just math.

I prefer this as well. 1 gold is a $20 bill. Common enough to carry around.

No one carries "hundreds" around with them in real economy. Anyone that is comparing a gp to $100 is wrong. Or rather I strongly disagree with that.

Full plate is $150,000... that's crazy. You are only paying for materials and labor. If that's true than people that can MAKE plate armor are literally the most wealthy people in a village because the material side of it isn't all that much. That's just not true. The armorer is still a relatively upper middle-class profession so he is paid upper middle-class wages. And that is reflective in the cost of his goods/services. $150,000 like a "sports car"... You're nuts.

[Democratus]

It's not a real economy. It doesn't really work.

Like the economy of the Federation in Star Trek, it's just window dressing to enable storytelling.

D&D is a strange mix of medieval and post-scarcity.

There is vastly more gold in the wold of D&D than ever existed in our own. All of the gold mined in history up to 1900 would have fit in a single olympic-size swimming pool.

There are magics and technologies that would make many medieval things irrelevant. Like castles, knights on horseback, and the like. Yet there they are - as if the world is really more of a themed amusement park than a living world.

Which is exactly what it is. :smallcool:

[jjordan]

I prefer this as well. 1 gold is a $20 bill. Common enough to carry around. It certainly feels better.


No one carries "hundreds" around with them in real economy. Anyone that is comparing a gp to $100 is wrong. Or rather I strongly disagree with that. Multiple people using multiple methods have arrived at this number. I've done it myself using two different methods. 1gp = $100 is a good ballpark comparison.


Full plate is $150,000... that's crazy. You are only paying for materials and labor. If that's true than people that can MAKE plate armor are literally the most wealthy people in a village because the material side of it isn't all that much. That's just not true. The armorer is still a relatively upper middle-class profession so he is paid upper middle-class wages. And that is reflective in the cost of his goods/services. $150,000 like a "sports car"... You're nuts.Couple of things. Yes, $150,000 is a little expensive. The numbers are skewed by the records kept for royal armours. Those could cost over a million dollars in modern terms. More typical armours would be in cheaper but still expensive. Orders of Milanese plate from the 15th Century, which will be lower cost as they were specialized centers of production, range from 32livre to 200livre per suit. A livre (a pound) in the 15th Century was worth 1lbs of silver. In D&D 5e 1lbs is 50 coins. So a suit of armor that cost 200 livre in the 15th century would be 10,000sp or 1,000gp. Using the 1gp=~$100 exchange rate that works out to $100,000. Bear in mind those were munition grade armors, not custom fitted. And those prices are for specialized manufacturing centers. That infrastructure doesn't extend down the village. Armorers are specialized workers and require a reliable source of fairly uniform metal that will cost more than general use iron. So you're paying for the extraction of the ore, the higher tolerance refining of the ore, the transport of the ore, the tools used to work the metal, the shop the tools are kept in, the laborers that help make the armour and maintain the tools and the shop, and the wages/profit of the armorer. It adds up.

[Democratus]

No one carries "hundreds" around with them in real economy. Anyone that is comparing a gp to $100 is wrong. Or rather I strongly disagree with that.


How is an adventurer part of the "real economy"?

Adventurers bringing treasure home are Jay-Z, bottle service, sports car-owning rich. It's the entire reason they go into terrible places and risk life and limb.

All of the rich people I know have 100's in their wallets and little else. 20's are too small to worry over.

[MaxWilson]

3) It's a bit rubbish: We don't have a quality system for weapon mechanics, but one of the AL conceits works here - nobody's going to buy that garbage, except maybe as scrap metal. The weapons are poor quality, both in design as well as material - far below the standard of a weapon-seller. They may not have been maintained well. Cheap, used weapons from the black market presents an... unexpected option. They work, but not necessarily for long.
If you want to do something with this mechanically, weapon breakage on a nat 1, or armor damage on taking a crit can set a mechanic for this difference in standard.

The MM suggests something similar, but this approach doesn't really work IMO when the price differences are large. If a normal crossbow is crazy-expensive, but a poor-quality crossbow that breaks on a natural 1 is cheap enough that you could buy dozens of poor-quality crossbows for the price of a normal crossbow, then buying a "normal" crossbow is economically foolish unless you're a professional who kills people almost on a daily basis.

[Luccan]

I've been thinking of posting this a couple times, but since people are talking about what a gold piece would represent relative to US dollars it now seems most relevant. I'm pretty sure in either that PHB or DMG it's mentioned that most people deal in Silver Pieces. I may be remembering a different edition, but if I'm right that means GP is not the standard coinage for peasants and that silver is also more likely to represent a one, five, or ten. This makes sense since most equipment non-adventurers are likely to use is priced in SP or CP. GP is used in many treasure hoards and by adventurers/nobles because you can carry more money around for less weight.

[Tvtyrant]

It certainly feels better.

Multiple people using multiple methods have arrived at this number. I've done it myself using two different methods. 1gp = $100 is a good ballpark comparison.

Couple of things. Yes, $150,000 is a little expensive. The numbers are skewed by the records kept for royal armours. Those could cost over a million dollars in modern terms. More typical armours would be in cheaper but still expensive. Orders of Milanese plate from the 15th Century, which will be lower cost as they were specialized centers of production, range from 32livre to 200livre per suit. A livre (a pound) in the 15th Century was worth 1lbs of silver. In D&D 5e 1lbs is 50 coins. So a suit of armor that cost 200 livre in the 15th century would be 10,000sp or 1,000gp. Using the 1gp=~$100 exchange rate that works out to $100,000. Bear in mind those were munition grade armors, not custom fitted. And those prices are for specialized manufacturing centers. That infrastructure doesn't extend down the village. Armorers are specialized workers and require a reliable source of fairly uniform metal that will cost more than general use iron. So you're paying for the extraction of the ore, the higher tolerance refining of the ore, the transport of the ore, the tools used to work the metal, the shop the tools are kept in, the laborers that help make the armour and maintain the tools and the shop, and the wages/profit of the armorer. It adds up.

In RL you went to the local banker/gs you knew and traded on your credit with him, then he gives you credit notes good with people who know him personally or by reputation. Then if you need something you need in an area you go to a banker from that area and change credit notes with him, and take the local credit note to the person to buy the good. Each step along the way you lose money as they take a bit. That was the formal workaround for long distance trade, which is why there was all that "my word is my bond" stuff.

Rather hilariously later those notes passed as money, by each person signing the bill and all being legally liable for it if someone wanted to cash it. This meant paper money started as privately printed, and groups of bankers would sign each other's bills to make new high credit money to stave off bankruptcies.

$100K is also not that much money for armor. Platemail made the wearer very hard to kill, and practically required horses and squires to use properly. So the individual wearing it already spent hundreds of thousands on equipment and side workers, and then it took an entire skilled labor shop a few months to make a suit. Probably the shop was in debt in the equivalent of millions of dollars, and got just enough payments to stave off creditors.

[jjordan]

In RL you went to the local banker/gs you knew and traded on your credit with him, then he gives you credit notes good with people who know him personally or by reputation.Oh definitely. Those munition grade armors weren't made for individual sale, they were bulk orders where the purchasers were buying lots of 100 or more. That's a million dollar armor sale to kit out 100 knights. Which doesn't even begin to cover the horses which would cost as much or much more than the armor.

[Lunali]

I prefer this as well. 1 gold is a $20 bill. Common enough to carry around.

No one carries "hundreds" around with them in real economy. Anyone that is comparing a gp to $100 is wrong. Or rather I strongly disagree with that.

Full plate is $150,000... that's crazy. You are only paying for materials and labor. If that's true than people that can MAKE plate armor are literally the most wealthy people in a village because the material side of it isn't all that much. That's just not true. The armorer is still a relatively upper middle-class profession so he is paid upper middle-class wages. And that is reflective in the cost of his goods/services. $150,000 like a "sports car"... You're nuts.

Assume banks don't really exist as we know them, but rather are places where you can deposit your money and withdraw it again from the same location at some point in the future minus protection fees. This means that adventurers basically have to carry their wealth with them. As for crafters, full plate requires 750gp in materials and takes 30 weeks to craft, for a profit of 25gp per week or 3-4 per day, if you can sell it. This is in line with the 2gp per day for a skilled hireling since the hireling would have the assurance of being paid and not have to lay out the money in advance for materials.

[LibraryOgre]

Assume banks don't really exist as we know them, but rather are places where you can deposit your money and withdraw it again from the same location at some point in the future minus protection fees.

Why would you assume that, though? I mean, in all sorts of D&D pantheons there's deity of wealth and trade. I know I've used the Church of Waukeen as a bank, including notes that can be taken to different Churches of Waukeen to receive cash. The Forgotten Realms has had such things since at least Forgotten Realms Adventures in 1990.

[Batou1976]

Why would you assume that, though? I mean, in all sorts of D&D pantheons there's deity of wealth and trade. I know I've used the Church of Waukeen as a bank, including notes that can be taken to different Churches of Waukeen to receive cash. The Forgotten Realms has had such things since at least Forgotten Realms Adventures in 1990.

And IRL that's what the Knights Templar did. You deposited your money with their chapter in say, London, they gave you something like a letter of credit reflecting the deposit, then you traveled down to Jerusalem, where you then showed that letter to the Templar chapter there to get your money (less a modest fee I'm sure).


Also, regarding coinage in circulation in D&D... the game *is* a little bit weird in how all financial business is done by exchange of currency. IRL in the feudal economy, everyone held their wealth in forms other than coin. Aristocrats especially were too rich to keep that much coin around- took up too much space, too inconvenient to lug around. Adventurers are really not doing themselves (or their joints :smallwink:) any favors by lugging around 1000s of gp in the form of actual coin.

[Yakmala]

There's really three economies in most D&D games.

Copper and Silver: What 95% of the campaign world uses day to day. It gets you food, shelter, passage and other essentials. Most workers are paid with this.

Gold: The currency of the wealthy and noble (those born into gold) and of adventurers (those who risk their lives for gold). Most adventurers by the time they hit level 3 treat silver and copper in monster lairs the way wealthy people in real life treat a penny discarded in the street. They notice it, but they are not sure they should bother picking it up.

Magic: The only reason adventurers keep track of Gold into the mid-levels and beyond. Some things are rarely for sale, and if they are, they are insanely expensive. This includes magic items of rarity above common, high level potions and scrolls and high level spell casting services. By this point, most adventurers, if they were willing to live a modest to comfortable lifestyle, could give up on adventuring for decades at a time, or forever if they invested in a source of income. But the lure of big ticket items such as magic keeps them searching for the next big horde.

[deljzc]

There's really three economies in most D&D games.

Copper and Silver: What 95% of the campaign world uses day to day. It gets you food, shelter, passage and other essentials. Most workers are paid with this.

Gold: The currency of the wealthy and noble (those born into gold) and of adventurers (those who risk their lives for gold). Most adventurers by the time they hit level 3 treat silver and copper in monster lairs the way wealthy people in real life treat a penny discarded in the street. They notice it, but they are not sure they should bother picking it up.

Magic: The only reason adventurers keep track of Gold into the mid-levels and beyond. Some things are rarely for sale, and if they are, they are insanely expensive. This includes magic items of rarity above common, high level potions and scrolls and high level spell casting services. By this point, most adventurers, if they were willing to live a modest to comfortable lifestyle, could give up on adventuring for decades at a time, or forever if they invested in a source of income. But the lure of big ticket items such as magic keeps them searching for the next big horde.

But that's really not what goods/services cost. Every tradesman and craftsman in D&D, based on the prices in the books deal in gold. A barrel costs 2 GP so coopers deal in gold. Clothing seems to vary in the 1sp to 1gp range. Everything an armorer/weaponmaker make are in GP. Fishing gear is 1GP. A simple sledge hammer is 2GP (so many farming tools are going to be 5sp - 1gp each).

If you are looking for the currency ONLY for the super wealthy, then that is what the platinum piece is. If you want to make an impression that you are Bill Gates, go ahead and carry around only platinum pieces. But can you expect every establishment to have CHANGE for platinum? Just like in real life, the answer to that is probably no. Yes, maybe by law they have to exchange your platinums for smaller currency, but it's a pain in the ass to them if they are a mom-and-pop store or don't deal in gold (more inn/restaurant types).

I have always described my D&D economy as 17th-18th century agrarian/service/consumption society with growing commerce (freedoms, trade, growing bourgeoisie class, etc.) but without the technological advancements that changed that middle-ages world (i.e. gunpowder, compass, printing press). It is much easier to create a world that has a lot more freedom of class movement with more equality of races, sexes, etc. Indentured servitude and slavery are not the driving factors of wealth.

Part of what changed the middle ages into the Renaissance was the plundering of wealth from around the globe and it all going back to Europe. That increase in wealth trickled down to create what we consider a "middle class". In the D&D world, that wealth (instead of being plundered from continents across the oceans) is often plundered from "dungeons". And that distribution of wealth is what is creating the middle class in the D&D world.

Yes, people are still poor. Yes, the commerce is still mainly agrarian. Yes, for many of the "countries" indentured servitude (serfdom) could still be prominant. But there is a growing middle class in the cities. There is a growing freedom of characters/population to "find their path in the world". Maybe not in every country (you can certainly have dictatorships in your worlds), but in the idea of "free cities" and large metropolises in D&D lore is almost vital to make the roll playing work the way we want.

The truth is, there is VASTLY more wealth in circulation in D&D universes than our real Middle Ages. So that has crazy implications on class structure. It is not something that has been emulated in earth's history, which is why we have to kind of combine (or imagine) a culture that is a mix of 17th/18th century economy IN a world that is more similar to classic middle age technology (swords, armor, castles, kings).