3.5:Gestalt Psychic Warrior/Soulknife, Need To Hit bonuses

[hector212121]

Alright, so I'm in a bit of a pickle.

I grabbed a Half-Minotaur(gm said LA would only apply to one half of the gestalt), but then noticed that they decided that ALL to hit rolls cue off Dexterity instead of Strength, so I need to figure out ways to boost that.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2265325

Notably, psychic powers and spells might be off limits because they're also using a magic system where the stuff you can do puts limits on what you can benefit from, but most magic items shouldn't be off limits....unless they're casting spells or invoking powers.

The problem is that, while my build is great in terms of damage output, when I use my planned combo my to-hit collapses in a pile of shame.

My intent is to use Expansion at 7 PP to explode outwards to Gargantuan size, or 9 if I grab Overchannel and want it to last for a good hour and a half. However, since to hit now always cues off Dexterity, that size penalty brings me down by 4--bringing me from a at least vaguely respectable +11 to hit to a pitiful +7.

Precognition, Offensive almost compensates with a +3, but I'd prefer to pick up some bonuses that actually make it so i land more hits than I miss.

I have a full 25k gp to work with, as I don't require shield, armor, or weapon--Soulknife=+2 Mindblade which I use as a bastard sword, and Psy-Warrior gives me Inertial Armor and Force Screen, which, at max PP, are both +7 to armor and shield respectively.

I know Soulknife is much-derided, but I'm taking it for the level 9 free Whirlwind Attack--pair that with Large size and the ability to grow to Gargantuan, and I believe that I can act as a effective anti-army fighter.

[vasilidor]

the first thing you need to do is boost dexterity if you have not already. also why the **** does your to hit run off of dex? this totally nerfs strength builds and warriors (and if your DM is giving giants their strength to hit you should totally call him out on it, they should suffer from the same suck he is sticking you with). then once you can, get deep impact.

[hector212121]

the first thing you need to do is boost dexterity if you have not already. also why the **** does your to hit run off of dex? this totally nerfs strength builds and warriors (and if your DM is giving giants their strength to hit you should totally call him out on it, they should suffer from the same suck he is sticking you with). then once you can, get deep impact.

GM says it's based on real world experience. They claim that even when it comes to smashing through armor, 'a light, straight on hit transfers more force than a glancing strong one'.

I don't have enough power points to use Deep Impact regularly, unless I'm missing some critical component of how to increase my PP pool.

Edit:Oh! There are two feats called Deep Impact. One costs Psionic Focus, the other costs 5 PP.

Huh.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Weapon Finesse is a feat that switches your attack bonus from Str to Dex, ask him if you can spend a feat to switch it from Dex to Str.

[hector212121]

Weapon Finesse is a feat that switches your attack bonus from Str to Dex, ask him if you can spend a feat to switch it from Dex to Str.

His reaction when I realized that Half-Minotaur is not in fact +4 str +2 con -2 int but rather +12 str +4 con -2 dex -2 int was basically 'lol alright i'll let you have it but good luck hitting anything'.

Get the feeling that's a no.

[vasilidor]

Real world experience also tells me that if you do not have the arm strength to go along with the dex, you are not swinging the weapon very effectively at all. i have practised swinging swords and hammers, the heaviest hammer being 30 lbs. I am no beast and the heavier weapons (greatswords for example) absolutely require strength.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

His reaction when I realized that Half-Minotaur is not in fact +4 str +2 con -2 int but rather +12 str +4 con -2 dex -2 int was basically 'lol alright i'll let you have it but good luck hitting anything'.

Get the feeling that's a no.

What level are you starting at? Have you already built the character?

This calls for a generous helping of Persistent Wraithstrike or some other means of always making touch attacks instead of normal attacks, thereby bypassing most of the opponents' AC.

Another option would be to take six levels of Fighter for Dungeoncrasher and just bull rush enemies into obstacles instead of making attack rolls.

Or you could use grapple checks, which inarguably use Str, to deal unarmed strike or natural weapon damage. Grip of Iron is actually amazing for this, but it's easily thwarted by Freedom of Movement. You can even benefit from Power Attack when doing this, and the penalty imposed on your attack rolls by it doesn't apply to your grapple checks because they're not attack rolls.

Edit: Regarding the Strength vs Accuracy, your BAB represents accuracy, not your Dex score. But I doubt you'll convince him to reverse his ruling.

[hector212121]

What level are you starting at? Have you already built the character?

This calls for a generous helping of Persistent Wraithstrike or some other means of always making touch attacks instead of normal attacks, thereby bypassing most of the opponents' AC.

Another option would be to take six levels of Fighter for Dungeoncrasher and just bull rush enemies into obstacles instead of making attack rolls.

Or you could use grapple checks, which inarguably use Str, to deal unarmed strike or natural weapon damage. Grip of Iron is actually amazing for this, but it's easily thwarted by Freedom of Movement. You can even benefit from Power Attack when doing this, and the penalty imposed on your attack rolls by it doesn't apply to your grapple checks because they're not attack rolls.

Edit: Regarding the Strength vs Accuracy, your BAB represents accuracy, not your Dex score. But I doubt you'll convince him to reverse his ruling.


Most of my stuff is already built, sheet's above.

[Segev]

Look here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/blade-skills/) for the Focused Offense Blade Skill. You have a 16 Wis, and that blade skill lets you use your Wisdom to hit. It's not as massive as the +12 you'd get from being able to use Strength, but it's still a ...

...wait, you have a 16 Dex. You should be fine to hit.

Are you expecting him to grossly inflate ACs?

[hector212121]

Look here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/blade-skills/) for the Focused Offense Blade Skill. You have a 16 Wis, and that blade skill lets you use your Wisdom to hit. It's not as massive as the +12 you'd get from being able to use Strength, but it's still a ...

...wait, you have a 16 Dex. You should be fine to hit.

Are you expecting him to grossly inflate ACs?


Expansion knocks 4 off my Dexterity. Plus, it drops my to-hit by either 2 or 3, depending on RAW vs RAI.

And at the same time, it massively ups my damage on a hit, and, more importantly, increases my reach enormously.

When you're likely going to fight large groups of enemies, and have a Whirlwind Attack analogue, reach is INSANELY valuable.

...

Also, Focused Offense is Pathfinder, not 3.5.

[Segev]

Also, Focused Offense is Pathfinder, not 3.5.

Ah. Missed the 3.5 tag. Soulknife is far less attractive in 3.5.

There’s “intuitive attack” in the book of exalted deeds which seems to do wisdom to attack rolls.

I saw it here; this might help: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4369.0

[hector212121]

Ah. Missed the 3.5 tag. Soulknife is far less attractive in 3.5.

There’s “intuitive attack” in the book of exalted deeds which seems to do wisdom to attack rolls.

I saw it here; this might help: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4369.0

I can't say that a Mindblade qualifies as a simple weapon, unfortunately. So no go on Intuitive Attack.

And honestly, the flavor combined with the Whirlwind Attack is enough to sell me. Even if my BAB suffers for it.

I just need to find some decent attack/dex bonuses. For instance, I'm eyeing Kammarth for that +2 Dex, and the +30 movement certainly doesn't hurt.


The thing is that while I'm sure the chaff won't be having much more than 18 AC on a regular basis, I'd also prefer to be not useless against any bigger enemies--and between 2d8+14 damage, and 4d8+17 damage, I'd say that being Expanded for that massive boost to damage output, reach, etc is way more useful. I can lock down areas with AOOs, flank entire formations with my rogue ally, and be just a general nuisance when Gargantuan in ways that I frankly can't do anywhere near as well at Large, too.

[Darg]

You are using Mindblade as your weapon correct? It says right in the description that is keys off of your strength for to hit bonuses:


The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus.

It's one thing to change a general rule, but to change a class feature is just playing dirty :wink:

Well, using your massive amount of strength you could get the improved trip feat to get a +4 to hit on a prone target and get a free re-swing with the bonus. Another option is to take advantage of your massive size and take the flanker feats (adaptable flanker/vexing flanker). By level 2 you qualify to take both melee and ranged weapon mastery (slashing) feats for mindblade as it qualifies for both = +6 to damage and +5 hit for all 4 feats.

On a side note, I just realized that multiple throw doesn't even work as written.

[Heavenblade]

Putting aside the fact that "real world experience" shouldnt have an impact on how stuff work in dnd....a workaround could be to invest in the feat that lets you shape your soulknife as a dire flail (or dwarven urgrosh/orc double axe if you want) - these weapons are much more "Strength oriented" and therefore even in the IRL sense of stuff, the Gm would probably let you use strength.

if you take the dire flail feat, you could progress into the dire flail smash feat which is really fun, and lets you add a nasty debuff on attacks.

[ExLibrisMortis]

N.B. Notational convention is to write gestalt(x, y) as x//y.

There are a couple of things you could change.

First of all, I don't think soulknife is worth it. And you're giving up psywar 8 for soulknife 8, which is even worse. Costs you a feat, too.
Second, your Practiced Manifester feat is doing very little for you, and if you drop soulknife 8 for psywar 8, you don't even need it.
Third, your base attack bonus is only +6, even though you have 8 HD. Replacing soulknife can get you up to +2 to hit (you lose weapon focus, but you can get that back easily).
Fourth, you stop qualifying for feats that require 13+ Dexterity if you use expansion for +2 size categories. And one of the best things about being really big is Combat Reflexes, which requires 13 Dexterity.
Fifth, if you want a big whirlwind attack, you should get a reach weapon, like a guisarme (paired with IUS) or a spiked chain. Don't use a bastard sword.

I'd go with psychic weapon master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) over soulknife, in this case. Also gets you free Whirlwind Attack, at a higher level--but if you already have the feat, you get to use it as a standard action.

So your build looks like this:
CG half-minotaur azurin psywar 4/illithid slayer 4//warblade 4/psywar +1/swordsage 1/monk 1/LA 1
Feats:
1) Psionic Dodge
azurin) Midnight Dodge
minotaur) Track
flaw) Mobility
flaw) Combat Reflexes
psywar 1) Psionic Weapon
psywar 2) Combat Expertise
3) Power Attack
psywar 5) Spring Attack
6) Whirlwind Attack
swordsage 1) Weapon Focus
monk 1) Pole Master
monk 1) Improved Unarmed Strike
Flaws: Whatever you fancy, I like Glory-Hound and Vulnerable.
ACFs: Martial decisive strike monk.

Progress as psywar +1//psychic weapon master +1 > psychic weapon master +1//warblade +1 and keep alternating those.
Next feat is either Deep Impact or Expanded Knowledge (share pain). Warblade 5 gets you another feat, too.
Strictly speaking you need Flurry of Blows to qualify for Pole Fighter, but Decisive Strike should be fine. Ask your DM.
Note that martial monk is used to pick up a feat that you qualify for. You don't technically need prereqs for monk feats (meaning you can pick up Whirlwind Attack at level 1, if you want), but that's pretty cheesy and I imagine your DM will veto that. So instead, it's used for an average feat, and one that's pretty flavourful for a martial monk, too. Can't hurt to be a bit elegant.
Using Weapon Aptitude to change one of the swordsage weapon focuses to guisarme. Wield a crystal guisarme, use unarmed strikes if necessary.
You need an extra point of Intelligence (to qualify for Whirlwind Attack), but that's not the end of the world.

Since you're Large, this gets you a 20' radius Whirlwind Attack around your 10' space. It's not quite as big as the 20' radius around your 20' space with augmented expansion, but (a) you have much better to-hit (+2 bab, +2 size, +2 dex), (b) you can actually fight inside buildings, (c) you have four damaging AoOs per round plus Decisive Strike, and (d) you can still use expansion to go up to Huge, giving you a 30' whirlwind around a 15' space. Once you've awakened your crystal guisarme, it functions as a psicrystal (more or less--you can share pain and use it to contain an extra focus). Picking up Psionic Meditation would let you refocus as a move action, too, but for now, I'm assuming two foci per fight (if you pick up Deep Impact at 9) + Emerald Razor is fine.

For your AoE nova, buy yourself a belt of battle. Decisive Strike > Whirlwind Attack means you're doing double damage on your whirlwind.

N.B. If you were really optimizing this, you'd probably drop Whirlwind Attack and just go with Decisive Strike or Diamond Mind maneuvers and Deep Impact + static damage bonuses (PA, Stormguard Warrior). WA is kinda meh.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that 3.5 Soulknife is a steaming pile.

Your solution, I believe, is Brutal Throw in Complete Adventurer. That makes your thrown weapon attacks use Str for the attack bonus instead of Dex.

Take TWF and start the game with Gloves of Endless Javelins, and consider taking Hulking Hurler in CW so you can throw whatever you have on hand if needed, plus large projectiles ignore wind wall and similar.

[Gnaeus]

If the DM is just allowing free gestalts. They are correct. Soulknife is a steaming pile. Warblade or even fighter will get you what you want, better, faster.

If this is some kind of gestalt with limited classes, soulknife isn’t worthless as a gestalt side. You could take that pile of wealth you freed up and buy some gloves of dex and potions of heroism.... By 10th level your mind blade is worth almost as much WBL as gloves of dex +6 (although 12th level makes more sense as a % of money.).

[Edea]

A Warblade//Psion gestalt sounds like it'd rock.

Psychic Warrior's better off combo'd with Totemist or something else that capitalizes on natural attacks.

Soulknife's a trap.

[Darg]

Sure, multiple throw doesn't work unless you take intent to throw as written and stockpile mindblades, but why is it a trap? Nothing is preventing the soul knife from stacking charges of psychic strike. In fact, if the soul knife has a steady supply of restorations from somewhere you can get some massive damage potentials thanks to Knife to the Soul. Not to mention it qualifies for both weapon mastery feats which are worth a total of 8 strength for 2 feats themselves and only have one more feat as a prerequisite. It also qualifies for rapid shot.

Maybe I'm blind to some other aspect that I can't see?

[hector212121]

Sure, multiple throw doesn't work unless you take intent to throw as written and stockpile mindblades, but why is it a trap? Nothing is preventing the soul knife from stacking charges of psychic strike. In fact, if the soul knife has a steady supply of restorations from somewhere you can get some massive damage potentials thanks to Knife to the Soul. Not to mention it qualifies for both weapon mastery feats which are worth a total of 8 strength for 2 feats themselves and only have one more feat as a prerequisite. It also qualifies for rapid shot.

Maybe I'm blind to some other aspect that I can't see?

Where are you getting that it can use Weapon Mastery from? :smallconfused: Weapon Mastery requires 4 levels of fighter because of its prereq, Weapon Specialization.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sure, multiple throw doesn't work unless you take intent to throw as written and stockpile mindblades, but why is it a trap? Nothing is preventing the soul knife from stacking charges of psychic strike. In fact, if the soul knife has a steady supply of restorations from somewhere you can get some massive damage potentials thanks to Knife to the Soul. Not to mention it qualifies for both weapon mastery feats which are worth a total of 8 strength for 2 feats themselves and only have one more feat as a prerequisite. It also qualifies for rapid shot.

Maybe I'm blind to some other aspect that I can't see?
It's a trap because it doesn't let you do anything special or interesting. All the class features amount to "you don't have to buy a magic weapon (probably)".

Psychic Strike doesn't affect all creatures, can't be stacked (you can't charge your mind blade when it's already charged), doesn't hit very hard, and takes a move action.

Knife to the Soul... I suspect you're reading it backwards. You can't increase psychic strike damage by taking mental score damage. You can trade psychic strike damage for mental score damage. Usually, the creatures that are vulnerable to single-digit ability damage (animals, for example) are weak enough that targeting their abilities isn't something you need to worry about. Knife to the Soul comes online after animals stop being a threat, too. For a 13th-level ability, it's weak. It's even worse in the class it's in.

Weapon Mastery feats are not great (I'm not sure you can stack them either, but that aside), and they're not worth +4 Strength each (because Strength has other interactions--it can get multiplied when using a 2h, for example). Rapid Shot... is fine, but it's not useful in a melee build.

The things you mention as advantages don't work that way, or are not that great. It's a shame, because the 3.0 soulknife was much better (it was a PrC). Knife to the Soul, for example, let you deal 2d4 points of Constitution damage, of which half permanent.

[Segev]

The things you mention as advantages don't work that way, or are not that great. It's a shame, because the 3.0 soulknife was much better (it was a PrC). Knife to the Soul, for example, let you deal 2d4 points of Constitution damage, of which half permanent.

The reason I initially thought we were discussing Pathfinder is because Dreamscarred Press's Soulknife base class is actually really cool and interesting. It's just the 3.5 class that is badly designed.

[Darg]

Where are you getting that it can use Weapon Mastery from? :smallconfused: Weapon Mastery requires 4 levels of fighter because of its prereq, Weapon Specialization.

Haha, I guess that's true. I feel sorry for favored souls not getting the benefit of their weapon specialization without levels in fighter either. With gestalt, 4 levels of fighter on the psychic warrior side wouldn't hurt much giving 3 feats, +1 extra attack, and +1 bab.


It's a trap because it doesn't let you do anything special or interesting. All the class features amount to "you don't have to buy a magic weapon (probably)".

Psychic Strike doesn't affect all creatures, can't be stacked (you can't charge your mind blade when it's already charged), doesn't hit very hard, and takes a move action.

Same magical effects stack unless otherwise mentioned. It's the outcome from same sources that aren't stacked. Without that exception and this clause:


A mind blade deals this extra damage only once when this ability is called upon

Psychic Strike stacks and discharges only one charge per attack. Also, even sneak attack doesn't effect all creatures. You might be thinking of touch attacks which have a specific general rule. It's either that or it can stack indefinitely. I was being quite conservative.



Knife to the Soul... I suspect you're reading it backwards. You can't increase psychic strike damage by taking mental score damage. You can trade psychic strike damage for mental score damage. Usually, the creatures that are vulnerable to single-digit ability damage (animals, for example) are weak enough that targeting their abilities isn't something you need to worry about. Knife to the Soul comes online after animals stop being a threat, too. For a 13th-level ability, it's weak. It's even worse in the class it's in.

You are right I did. Personally that makes it even better. Because knife to the soul is a separate source of damage (i.e. a trade), immunity to mind affecting doesnt affect it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The reason I initially thought we were discussing Pathfinder is because Dreamscarred Press's Soulknife base class is actually really cool and interesting. It's just the 3.5 class that is badly designed.
It is. I can't get my head around how little effort WotC put into the soulknife. Even gestalting it with that other horrible class, Divine Mind, barely produces something workable.


Same magical effects stack unless otherwise mentioned.
Overlapping magical effects don't stack, however, and there's no way to argue that "charged mind blade" doesn't overlap with "charged mind blade". In any case, I don't think it's an effect applied twice, it's a class feature set to "on" twice (which does nothing).

Even if you could charge your blade multiple times, you'd lose all charges when you next hit something, and you'd have only one lot of damage to show for your move actions.

Even even if you could get multiple psychic strikes by spending a bit of time charging it pre-combat, it's still less damage than just having proper sneak attack. 1d8 per four levels works out to 1.125/level, and you can't increase it with classes that progress SA. Plain rogue is 1.75/level and easy to increase, either with SA boosters, feats like Craven, or Maiming Strike.


Psychic Strike stacks and discharges only one charge per attack. Also, even sneak attack doesn't effect all creatures. You might be thinking of touch attacks which have a specific general rule. It's either that or it can stack indefinitely. I was being quite conservative.
...why would I be thinking of touch attacks?


You are right I did. Personally that makes it even better. Because knife to the soul is a separate source of damage (i.e. a trade), immunity to mind affecting doesnt affect it.
It's a separate damage roll, but not a separate source of damage. Knife to the Soul is part of a psychic strike attack. Even if it did bypass immunity to mind-affecting, it wouldn't be particularly good, nor better than what you were imagining, I think. For example, your version has synergy with Naberius. I mean, it could scale a bit better (2d8 damage per point of ability damage at minimum, perhaps scaling to 3d8 or 4d8), but then it'd be quite a good replacement for the current version. High-cost high-reward kind of deal.

[Edea]

Also, it's not that the idea of an at-will psionic energy blade is bad. It's that we didn't need a base class for it.

It's clear that this was originally a prestige class, and the devs felt a need to pad out the 3.5 XPH, so they took this thing and stretched the crap out of it without checking anything they wrote down.

[Darg]

It is. I can't get my head around how little effort WotC put into the soulknife. Even gestalting it with that other horrible class, Divine Mind, barely produces something workable.


Overlapping magical effects don't stack, however, and there's no way to argue that "charged mind blade" doesn't overlap with "charged mind blade". In any case, I don't think it's an effect applied twice, it's a class feature set to "on" twice (which does nothing).

Even if you could charge your blade multiple times, you'd lose all charges when you next hit something, and you'd have only one lot of damage to show for your move actions.

Even even if you could get multiple psychic strikes by spending a bit of time charging it pre-combat, it's still less damage than just having proper sneak attack. 1d8 per four levels works out to 1.125/level, and you can't increase it with classes that progress SA. Plain rogue is 1.75/level and easy to increase, either with SA boosters, feats like Craven, or Maiming Strike.

That's the point of the clause I pointed out. On next hit it unleashes the damage. The clause makes it so you can only discharge once per use. Broad reading is what provides the limit of once per strike. As for them stacking, there isn't a rule against it. The same name rule comes close, but doesn't cover this scenario.

Using the ability is a move action and the effect is instantaneous. Without a duration, there is no overlap. Cure wounds doesn't overlap with the same concept.



It's a separate damage roll, but not a separate source of damage. Knife to the Soul is part of a psychic strike attack. Even if it did bypass immunity to mind-affecting, it wouldn't be particularly good, nor better than what you were imagining, I think. For example, your version has synergy with Naberius. I mean, it could scale a bit better (2d8 damage per point of ability damage at minimum, perhaps scaling to 3d8 or 4d8), but then it'd be quite a good replacement for the current version. High-cost high-reward kind of deal.

They are separate supernatural abilities. It doesn't say it changes psychic strike in any way. Psychic strike specifically states psychic strike damage. You are substituting psychic strike damage with knife to the soul damage. Substitution means they aren't the same thing.