Is there a compelling reason why a Master of Many Forms would not want to be Undead?

[Doctor Despair]

Simply put, I was considering the following build for a level 4 cohort (planned out until level 6, after which they'd take straight MoMF):



+2 saves against sleep/charm
Minor Shape Change (Su): Disguise self at will as a full-round action; this is physical (not illusion) and lasts indefinitely, but is foiled by true seeing. +10/disguises
+10 to all movement
Hide in Plain Sight when not in natural daylight or Daylight spell
Resistance to Cold 10
Darkvision 60
Superior Low-Light Vision
+8 hide, +6 move silently




Str: 7
Dex: 8
Con: 18
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 10




Level 1

Track, Fast Movement, Favored Organization (Crime Syndicate), Speak w/ Plants&Animals 3/day
Martial Study: Moment of Perfect Mind

Level 2:

Dead level

Level 3:

Endurance (class), Flexible Mind (Bluff/Disguise)

Level 4:

First level spells, urban companion (horned lizard: +2 will saves)
Alertness (urban companion)

Level 5:

Second Favored Organization, Wildshape 1/day (+ an additional 10 to disguise)

Level 6:

Shifter's speech, improved wild shape (humanoid)
Extra Wildshape



This is for a cohort, I wanted to experiment with Master of Many Forms, and as it's a cohort, I didn't want to use the full-caster Druid and overshadow the party. Additionally, book-keeping on two casters seemed like it'd be annoying to play with.

The DM greenlit a free +1LA for the build, so I ruled out delaying MoMF with a plant-race like the Volodni. I considered the Warforged for the immunities, but I decided that, being two levels down from my character (and three levels down from the party, as my character has a bought-off LA1), that melee was already going to be less effective, so I may as well lean into another relative strength of the MoMF for this campaign: utility. Therefore, I decided to try the Changeling race for the utility of the net +20 to disguise that comes with Wildshape/Disguise Self at will, or strong disguises to appear as a different creature than the one being wildshaped into. I was originally going to take Persona Immersion, but I asked the DM beforehand if they were just going to do yes-level checks for characters using those sorts of divinations, and they suggested the feat looked like it wouldn't be useful compared to a will save to resist.

Hence, I ended up taking Extra Wild Shape at 6 (for all-day wildshaping), the horned lizard companion for will saves, Flexible Mind to make disguise and bluff class skills, and Martial Study to further allow a buffed will-save once per encounter (as the MoMF may have a very high con in various forms regardless).

However, it occured to me that I'd overlooked one option: Necropolitan. I wanted to see what folks thought about this.

A wildshape ranger avoids a lot of the fluff that druids have that might otherwise preclude them from taking the template. The changeling's disguise self should still work fine, as it is dependent on shape, not type, and presumably should still cover all the humanoids it normally would have covered. Additionally, it could help cover up the fact that there is an undead creature in the party in situations where that might otherwise be a liability.

To the best of my knowledge, the pros of taking Necropolitan as a Master of Many Forms would be:

You become even less MAD, being able to dump strength, dex, and con in favor of wisdom, charisma, and intelligence, probably in that order.
You retain your undead immunities while in wild shape, as you retain your type, covering up your weak will-save in many cases (and freeing up the Martial Study feat for something like Dive for Cover)
Your HD become D12s from your normal D8s, raising your average HP to the same as an equivalent MoMF with 14 con.
Arguably, you may get bonus feats based on your charisma score from your new taint score


However, the cons would be:

You don't benefit from the high-con of your forms with regard to your fort saves (for those that bypass your undead immunities)
In addition to true-seeing, other detection spells and abilities, like Detect Undead and Lifesight, become more problematic
You become vulnerable to turning
You become unable to benefit from the healing your party might otherwise be able to offer (and we do have a dedicated healer in the party)


Knowing my DM, they would not allow both templates (they are very tepid on allowing more than one template on a good day, let alone for a cohort), so as I said above, I was wondering if folks could help me evaluate Dark vs Necropolitan as options here.

[Falontani]

Simply put, I was considering the following build for a level 4 cohort (planned out until level 6, after which they'd take straight MoMF):



+2 saves against sleep/charm
Minor Shape Change (Su): Disguise self at will as a full-round action; this is physical (not illusion) and lasts indefinitely, but is foiled by true seeing. +10/disguises
+10 to all movement
Hide in Plain Sight when not in natural daylight or Daylight spell
Resistance to Cold 10
Darkvision 60
Superior Low-Light Vision
+8 hide, +6 move silently




Str: 7
Dex: 8
Con: 18
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 10




Level 1

Track, Fast Movement, Favored Organization (Crime Syndicate), Speak w/ Plants&Animals 3/day
Martial Study: Moment of Perfect Mind

Level 2:

Dead level

Level 3:

Endurance (class), Flexible Mind (Bluff/Disguise)

Level 4:

First level spells, urban companion (horned lizard: +2 will saves)
Alertness (urban companion)

Level 5:

Second Favored Organization, Wildshape 1/day (+ an additional 10 to disguise)

Level 6:

Shifter's speech, improved wild shape (humanoid)
Extra Wildshape



This is for a cohort, I wanted to experiment with Master of Many Forms, and as it's a cohort, I didn't want to use the full-caster Druid and overshadow the party. Additionally, book-keeping on two casters seemed like it'd be annoying to play with.

The DM greenlit a free +1LA for the build, so I ruled out delaying MoMF with a plant-race like the Volodni. I considered the Warforged for the immunities, but I decided that, being two levels down from my character (and three levels down from the party, as my character has a bought-off LA1), that melee was already going to be less effective, so I may as well lean into another relative strength of the MoMF for this campaign: utility. Therefore, I decided to try the Changeling race for the utility of the net +20 to disguise that comes with Wildshape/Disguise Self at will, or strong disguises to appear as a different creature than the one being wildshaped into. I was originally going to take Persona Immersion, but I asked the DM beforehand if they were just going to do yes-level checks for characters using those sorts of divinations, and they suggested the feat looked like it wouldn't be useful compared to a will save to resist.

Hence, I ended up taking Extra Wild Shape at 6 (for all-day wildshaping), the horned lizard companion for will saves, Flexible Mind to make disguise and bluff class skills, and Martial Study to further allow a buffed will-save once per encounter (as the MoMF may have a very high con in various forms regardless).

However, it occured to me that I'd overlooked one option: Necropolitan. I wanted to see what folks thought about this.

A wildshape ranger avoids a lot of the fluff that druids have that might otherwise preclude them from taking the template. The changeling's disguise self should still work fine, as it is dependent on shape, not type, and presumably should still cover all the humanoids it normally would have covered. Additionally, it could help cover up the fact that there is an undead creature in the party in situations where that might otherwise be a liability.

To the best of my knowledge, the pros of taking Necropolitan as a Master of Many Forms would be:

You become even less MAD, being able to dump strength, dex, and con in favor of wisdom, charisma, and intelligence, probably in that order.
You retain your undead immunities while in wild shape, as you retain your type, covering up your weak will-save in many cases (and freeing up the Martial Study feat for something like Dive for Cover)
Your HD become D12s from your normal D8s, raising your average HP to the same as an equivalent MoMF with 14 con.
Arguably, you may get bonus feats based on your charisma score from your new taint score


However, the cons would be:

You don't benefit from the high-con of your forms with regard to your fort saves (for those that bypass your undead immunities)
In addition to true-seeing, other detection spells and abilities, like Detect Undead and Lifesight, become more problematic
You become vulnerable to turning
You become unable to benefit from the healing your party might otherwise be able to offer (and we do have a dedicated healer in the party)


Knowing my DM, they would not allow both templates (they are very tepid on allowing more than one template on a good day, let alone for a cohort), so as I said above, I was wondering if folks could help me evaluate Dark vs Necropolitan as options here.

One thing I think you have missed; is that undead are immune to polymorph effects* (such as wild shape).
*Lich's may specifically polymorph themselves.
*Vampires have the Alternate Form ability, which I believe does not reference polymorph enough to count as a polymorph effect by itself.
However a Necropolitan would have to lower his immunity as a standard action in order to wild shape.

Outside of that there is the health issue. While you are correct that on average it is as good as your current HD with a +2 constitution modifier, what if you got an item that raised your constitution by 4, or simply had bear's endurance cast on you. It would allow you to be more SAD, but it would also permanently block you from raising your constitution to raise your hit points, which could be bad for you.

Dark vs Necropolitan: Interesting debate, however I see the benefits of both as being completely different, and thus it matters more with what you are trying to do. If you have no intention of using stealth, then necropolitan is better. If you plan on using stealth then Dark is better. The best option is a Necropolitan with a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

[Doctor Despair]

One thing I think you have missed; is that undead are immune to polymorph effects* (such as wild shape).
*Lich's may specifically polymorph themselves.
*Vampires have the Alternate Form ability, which I believe does not reference polymorph enough to count as a polymorph effect by itself.
However a Necropolitan would have to lower his immunity as a standard action in order to wild shape.


A few notes:


Can I get a source showing undead are immune to polymorph effects? I don't see it under the type or under Necropolitan. Did you mean that polymorph the spell only works on living creatures?

Can I get a source indicating Wild Shape works as polymorph the spell? Since the errata, it specifically works like alternate form, right?



O
Outside of that there is the health issue. While you are correct that on average it is as good as your current HD with a +2 constitution modifier, what if you got an item that raised your constitution by 4, or simply had bear's endurance cast on you. It would allow you to be more SAD, but it would also permanently block you from raising your constitution to raise your hit points, which could be bad for you.

Dark vs Necropolitan: Interesting debate, however I see the benefits of both as being completely different, and thus it matters more with what you are trying to do. If you have no intention of using stealth, then necropolitan is better. If you plan on using stealth then Dark is better. The best option is a Necropolitan with a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

There's also the fact that as an undead, you are destroyed at 0hp. Being three levels behind the party, reducing your effective HP by 10 could be dangerous... At least in terms of a damage-sponge. A utility-disguise cohort may not have to deal with that as much, but the risk is there in any combat.

On the note of physical scores, I suppose you could age-up the necropolitan and absolutely tank their strength and dex in exchange for better mental stats, as you will be spending all day in wild shape at level 6 (and most of the relevant part of the day at level 5). +3 to all mental stats is pretty compelling, although it would make level 4 a lot harder to make it through.

I don't know that the build would ever have the feats to take Darkstalker, but in terms of generic hide, the MoMF expanded size wild shapes could make it situationally useful to hide, even if you don't specifically build for it. A tiny, dark creature with hide as a class skill can do some decent skulking -- particularly if disguised as some sort of innocent tiny creature, so that even those that notice it are tempted to ignore it.

The detect undead-type abilities are still a little worrying, but I suppose detection generally foils nondetection no matter what you do at sufficiently high levels of optimization; at least this ranger can make a wand of nondetection to avoid that somewhat.

[tyckspoon]

A few notes:


Can I get a source showing undead are immune to polymorph effects? I don't see it under the type or under Necropolitan. Did you mean that polymorph the spell only works on living creatures?



Undead are not, generically, immune to polymorph. Oozes and Plants are. Undead are, however, immune to most offensive polymorphing attacks, because they tend to A: target Fort saves and B: Not affect objects; the object clause is why you can't Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone an Undead creature. There isn't anything I'm aware of that prevents an undead creature from using shapechanging effects on themselves, where the effect targeting allows.

In current rules Wild Shape references the Alternate Form special ability, yes. It has nothing to do, ruleswise, with either the Polymorph spell, the Polymorph spell subschool, or the interactions between Undead and spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Undead Type (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) doesn't appear to grant immunity to polymorph, and it's not inherent to having Con as a nonability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities) either. Furthermore, post-errata Druid's Wild Shape (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) functions like the alternate form special ability, it's no longer based on Polymorph.


For an undead follower, always always say they were created in the area of a Desecrate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) with an evil altar present at the very least. This is a permanent +2 hp per HD for free. If you can say that Desecrate was modified with Fell Energy Spell in Dragon Compendium, that's +6 hp per HD instead, still free. If you can say their creator had the Corpsecrafter line of feats in LM, that's +4 Str and Dex (in all forms, it's an enhancement bonus), +10 ft. speed, +4 initiative, +2 natural armor and turn resistance, +1d6 cold damage on natural weapon attacks, and another +2 hp per HD, still all completely free. Tack on the creator being a Dread Necromancer 8+ with a single level of Wizard with Enhance Undead (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) for an additional +4 hp per HD, also free.

[Gruftzwerg]

There's a lil problem imho.

You loose your templates when you wild shape, since it is based on Alternate Form:

This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

Imho I would avoid taking templates with Wild Shape unless you really need to due to other reasons than Wild Shape.
If you have DM fiat to keep your templates that's another thing. But unless your DM allows you to keep your templates while using Wild Shape, it's a bad idea.

E.g. Wild Shape will ignore that you have the necropolitan template. Your Con score (which you normally would dump as Necropolitan) kicks in again with your real Con modified HP (if you would have Con 8 you would loose HP, or gain if you had Con 12+).

Sry but it doesn't work out as you intended unless you have DM fiat.. so check with your DM first if you want to go that route.

[Remuko]

There's a lil problem imho.

You loose your templates when you wild shape, since it is based on Alternate Form:



Imho I would avoid taking templates with Wild Shape unless you really need to due to other reasons than Wild Shape.
If you have DM fiat to keep your templates that's another thing. But unless your DM allows you to keep your templates while using Wild Shape, it's a bad idea.

E.g. Wild Shape will ignore that you have the necropolitan template. Your Con score (which you normally would dump as Necropolitan) kicks in again with your real Con modified HP (if you would have Con 8 you would loose HP, or gain if you had Con 12+).

Sry but it doesn't work out as you intended unless you have DM fiat.. so check with your DM first if you want to go that route.

I dont think this is true. First, Necropolitan isnt a template, so its fine. Second, its clear (to me) that RAI is that the rule about templates is based on a templateless PC. A Human cannot wildshape into a celestial bear. Theres no reason a templated creature wouldnt keep their template. Theyre not wildshaping into a form with a template, theyre wildshaping into a form and keeping their template. I'd consider any DM ruling you lose a template you have naturally, as violating RAI, and at a real table, in most circumstances RAI > RAW.

[NontheistCleric]

If you can say their creator had the Corpsecrafter line of feats in LM

Corpsecrafter and its line wouldn't work for a Necropolitan (the kind of undead the OP is talking about), though, as they only affect undead created by spells, and Necropolitans are not created using spells but rather the Ritual of Crucimigration.

[Doctor Despair]

There's a lil problem imho.

You loose your templates when you wild shape, since it is based on Alternate Form:


You're right that you can't wildshape into a form with a template, but the rules for alternate form also state:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature) movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form.

The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.


It seems that the ranger's original form is modified by the template, so you'd retain the undead type, the shapeshifter subtype, and the special qualities of the template as well, while losing any movement modes or special attacks granted by it, as the new form wouldn't have the template (n/a). You'd be undead because your original form was undead, not because your new form has the template.

[Gruftzwerg]

I dont think this is true. First, Necropolitan isnt a template, so its fine. Second, its clear (to me) that RAI is that the rule about templates is based on a templateless PC. A Human cannot wildshape into a celestial bear. Theres no reason a templated creature wouldnt keep their template. Theyre not wildshaping into a form with a template, theyre wildshaping into a form and keeping their template. I'd consider any DM ruling you lose a template you have naturally, as violating RAI, and at a real table, in most circumstances RAI > RAW.
I have nothing against RAI or DM fiat in this chase. But it should be pointed out that if the DM relies on strict RAW, that you loose any templates in wild shape form. We don't know how his DM handles such situations.

edit: I only know Necropolitan as template. Are they anywhere printed as race? Can you give me any source? I'm curious about this.


You're right that you can't wildshape into a form with a template, but the rules for alternate form also state:



It seems that the ranger's original form is modified by the template, so you'd retain the undead type, the shapeshifter subtype, and the special qualities of the template as well, while losing any movement modes or special attacks granted by it, as the new form wouldn't have the template (n/a). You'd be undead because your original form was undead, not because your new form has the template.

Imho original form refers to basic unmodified race/from without any alteration, which excludes templates.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're right that you can't wildshape into a form with a template, but the rules for alternate form also state:

It seems that the ranger's original form is modified by the template, so you'd retain the undead type, the shapeshifter subtype, and the special qualities of the template as well, while losing any movement modes or special attacks granted by it, as the new form wouldn't have the template (n/a). You'd be undead because your original form was undead, not because your new form has the template.

Don't be absurd, Lycanthrope itself is a template and they use alternate form to take a hybrid and animal form, and retain 100% of their Lycanthrope template when doing so. The rules you've cited don't apply to the creature's natural form, only to the form they assume. You don't lose your natural form's template when you use alternate form, you just can't use alternate form to assume the form of a templated creature.

[Gruftzwerg]

Don't be absurd, Lycanthrope itself is a template and they use alternate form to take a hybrid and animal form, and retain 100% of their Lycanthrope template when doing so. The rules you've cited don't apply to the creature's natural form, only to the form they assume. You don't lose your natural form's template when you use alternate form, you just can't use alternate form to assume the form of a templated creature.

Reread the template carefully. All abilities "specifically target" either the Alternate Form ability/forms or all your forms (again including Alternate Form). This is a specific exception to the general rules of AF.
Which means, that a Lycanthrope looses the template by RAW when in his Alternate Form but still retains the abilities, since they altered the Alternate Form(s).

... your welcome to the beauty of 3.5 RAW..^^

[Doctor Despair]

I have nothing against RAI or DM fiat in this chase. But it should be pointed out that if the DM relies on strict RAW, that you loose any templates in wild shape form. We don't know how his DM handles such situations.

..

Imho original form refers to basic unmodified race/from without any alteration, which excludes templates.

So in your opinion, "original form" refers to their base race. That's a RAI restriction on a broad, powerfully-worded term. Original form would most logically and simply refer to the form they had before using wild shape. If they wanted to use more restrictive terms, such as "base race" or something similar, they could have; they could have been more specific in favor of allowing template traits to carry over too, of course, but being more specific would also be more restrictive (perhaps accidentally disallowing special qualities from non-race, non-template sources), so I think original form is a pretty good catch-all for the qualities of the form the wild shaper has when not wild shaping -- e.g., their qualities from their races and templates.

[Edivdrone]

Directly RAW, no. However, unless you presented me with a compelling reason that the forces of nature would empower a perversion of the natural order (exactly how nature views undead, remember), as a DM, I would say no to the notion of an undead ranger or druid. The forces of nature that are the primary source of their power would turn away from them as if they had committed a major ethos violation in my ruling.

[Doctor Despair]

Directly RAW, no. However, unless you presented me with a compelling reason that the forces of nature would empower a perversion of the natural order (exactly how nature views undead, remember), as a DM, I would say no to the notion of an undead ranger or druid. The forces of nature that are the primary source of their power would turn away from them as if they had committed a major ethos violation in my ruling.

Rangers don't have the Druid fall mechanic, so although they probably wouldn't like it, there's nothing prohibiting them from doing that. Maybe there was merit to having an eternal guardian for some stretch of nature that wouldn't die of old age.

[Anthrowhale]

This may not be relevant, but I mostly avoid the undead type when optimizing due to things like greater turning (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain) creating a no-save-you-are-gone effect.

[Doctor Despair]

This may not be relevant, but I mostly avoid the undead type when optimizing due to things like greater turning (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain) creating a no-save-you-are-gone effect.

That's fair. I suppose that increases the benefits of this character keeping a high disguise check to hide their undead nature, or else just eating the LA to be a plant creature of some sort for similar immunities.

[Falontani]

Directly RAW, no. However, unless you presented me with a compelling reason that the forces of nature would empower a perversion of the natural order (exactly how nature views undead, remember), as a DM, I would say no to the notion of an undead ranger or druid. The forces of nature that are the primary source of their power would turn away from them as if they had committed a major ethos violation in my ruling.

Negative energy is just as natural as positive energy, undead can and do rise spontaneously just as life does if the correct conditions are met. There is a negative energy plane just like there is a positive energy plane. Undead can procreate, and while their methods differ than most living creatures, living creatures also procreate in vastly different ways than one another.
The only thing that is different between life and undeath is natural decay. But even then there are extremophiles that can and do live in the most extreme circumstances, and some are even eternal. And this is without mentioning plants that live extremely long lifespans, fey that hardly age, and elementals which are completely within the natural order of things for a druid.

Finally druids can get access to and cast without losing their spellcasting, animate dead, create undead, greater create undead, and the like.

Finally there is the planar shepherd prestige class, which is a prestige class tailored for druids with a planar tendency, and following the natural laws of alternate planes of existence, which include both mabar the plane of eternal night (where vampires are said to be from) as well as dolurrh, plane of the dead.

[nedz]

Just going back a step:

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Dark Changeling the Dark Template applied to the Changeling Race ?

Not that I think that this is relevant because of how Alternate Form works, but if this doesn't work then you have the same issue with the original build.


Alternate Form
... A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.
...
The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form

Ed: Note: your original type and subtype is dependant upon your templated race here - which is retained.

[Doctor Despair]

Just going back a step:

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Dark Changeling the Dark Template applied to the Changeling Race ?

Not that I think that this is relevant because of how Alternate Form works, but if this doesn't work then you have the same issue with the original build.



Ed: Note: your original type and subtype is dependant upon your templated race here - which is retained.

Yes, it was the Dark template applied to the Changeling race, and yes, you are correct that a character cannot wildshape into a creature with the Dark template. However, Alternate Form states:


The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

Your original form has the Dark template and special qualities that come with it, so those templates should carry over to the wildshape form, although even a Master of Many Forms 7 (with Extraordinary Wild Shape) without the Dark template would not be able to wildshape into a form to gain the benefits of the Dark template.

[Edivdrone]

Negative energy is just as natural as positive energy, undead can and do rise spontaneously just as life does if the correct conditions are met. There is a negative energy plane just like there is a positive energy plane. Undead can procreate, and while their methods differ than most living creatures, living creatures also procreate in vastly different ways than one another.
The only thing that is different between life and undeath is natural decay.

There is more than one point in the books that state that the powers and beings of nature consider undead to be a violation of the natural cycle of life and death. Therefore, I feel that it should be abundantly clear that they would be extremely upset with one of their champions deliberately dabbling in undeath, much less becoming undead.

[Gruftzwerg]

So in your opinion, "original form" refers to their base race. That's a RAI restriction on a broad, powerfully-worded term. Original form would most logically and simply refer to the form they had before using wild shape. If they wanted to use more restrictive terms, such as "base race" or something similar, they could have; they could have been more specific in favor of allowing template traits to carry over too, of course, but being more specific would also be more restrictive (perhaps accidentally disallowing special qualities from non-race, non-template sources), so I think original form is a pretty good catch-all for the qualities of the form the wild shaper has when not wild shaping -- e.g., their qualities from their races and templates.

yes, imho original form refers to unmodified base race form. And once you are in your "original form" all templates come back into effect.

Let's take an example of changing form twice. And to showcase why your assumption (that you change back into your last form before the spell/wild shape effect) is flawed:

1. the party wizard (lvl 7) tricks his human druid buddy and casts Polymorph to turn him into a skunk (as prank). -7min. duration

2. the druid counters that with using his wild shape ability and turns himself into a swain.

The druid only needs to maintain his wild shape form for 7minutes. In these 7 minutes both spell effects are on you, but only the last one affects you (wild shape in our chase). After the 7 minutes you can safely turn back into your "original form", which is not a skunk. If you would turn back before the 7 minutes ended, wild shape would technically still turn you into your "original form" (unaltered form), but the Polymorph effect would still be there to affect you.

If I would go with your interpretation and the druid would turn back after the 7 minutes have passed, you would be stuck in the skunk form forever since it has a duration of " "left. (or some similar dysfunction)


If we assume that "original form" refers to unmodified base race, we have no rule issues. So we can conclude that is at least RAI.
From a RAW perspective, since "original form" seems to not be special defined within 3.5, we have to fall back to regular English definitions for this term. And imho original means unaltered or not modified in any way. Think about oldtimer cars and "original" parts. So even RAW seems to imply that we are talking about the unaltered form.

[NontheistCleric]

There is more than one point in the books that state that the powers and beings of nature consider undead to be a violation of the natural cycle of life and death. Therefore, I feel that it should be abundantly clear that they would be extremely upset with one of their champions deliberately dabbling in undeath, much less becoming undead.

There are also powerful druidic undead in the rulebooks, though. So clearly not all of the powers of nature agree on that point.

[Doctor Despair]

Let's take an example of changing form twice. And to showcase why your assumption (that you change back into your last form before the spell/wild shape effect) is flawed:

1. the party wizard (lvl 7) tricks his human druid buddy and casts Polymorph to turn him into a skunk (as prank). -7min. duration

2. the druid counters that with using his wild shape ability and turns himself into a swain.

The druid only needs to maintain his wild shape form for 7minutes. In these 7 minutes both spell effects are on you, but only the last one affects you (wild shape in our chase). After the 7 minutes you can safely turn back into your "original form", which is not a skunk. If you would turn back before the 7 minutes ended, wild shape would technically still turn you into your "original form" (unaltered form), but the Polymorph effect would still be there to affect you.

If I would go with your interpretation and the druid would turn back after the 7 minutes have passed, you would be stuck in the skunk form forever since it has a duration of " "left. (or some similar dysfunction)


Or, when the polymorph runs out, your original form returns to its race + templates, so the wild shape reverts you to skunk if ended during the polymorph, or base race plus templates if done afterward.

Alternatively, original form could refer to "race plus templates" or "race plus templates plus permanent effects" or something, to avoid that complication.

I could see a case for folks saying that "original form" would include race plus inherited templates (but not acquired templates), as they are both applied at character creation, but imho, "original form" most easily refers to race plus all templates, as those modify your original form. I can agree it probably shouldn't include temporary buffs or changes, and if it does, it shouldn't extend beyond the natural duration of those buffs.

At the end of the day, however, it isn't RAW to say that it precludes templates, just a specific sort of RAI.