Marvelous Pigmants, how would you rule?

[Nefariis]

My characters are using Marvelous Pigments to breach a castle wall with their army (which is fine).

The hole they want to create is 100ft wide x 6ft tall which should take 60 minutes to paint per the rules - and they plan to have invisibility on while painting.

They wanted to make the hole using black paint only (think looney toons tunnel), where after they finished the hole, the black space would disappear creating a clear path.

I said it would either work that the black space would stay, because they didnt actually paint anything but black, creating a usable portal to behind the wall OR that after each round (6 seconds), the 1 sq foot of black that they painted would become clear to the other side, allowing both sides to see / walk through.

I thought these were reasonable, but they didn't approve.

Now they are looking into painting curtains, they want the curtains to not appear on the other side until they are 100% finished with the painting and begin to pull them back.


So my questions to you all are -


when is the paint usable?
when would the fabric of the curtain feel soft?
when does it appear on the other side?
could the enemies interact with it on the other side before it is finished?
is there anything else I should consider / take into account before I let them do this?


Thanks

[NaughtyTiger]

When you complete the painting, the object or terrain feature depicted becomes a real, nonmagical object.

it would become real once the painting is complete.

By soft, do you mean flexible like fabric? Then yes, cuz it is a real curtain

It appears on the other side once it is real (painting is complete)

Enemy cannot interact with a painting of the other side of the wall

Take into account the rule of cool?

[firelistener]

I'm a stickler for rules, but I'd advise you just allow whatever they attempt to work and let their army through. It's a very creative and fun idea, and I prefer to reward that in my own games.

As for your questions, the entry for Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments in the DMG (page 183) states that it becomes real "when you complete the painting". Since it's magic, it should just follow the painter's intent. There shouldn't be any interference possible from the other side until it is complete. The DMG also gives a hole as an example, so their black hole to the other side should probably be fine by that definition. I really think the curtains are funnier though lol.

[NaughtyTiger]

I said it would either work that the black space would stay, because they didnt actually paint anything but black, creating a usable portal to behind the wall OR that after each round (6 seconds), the 1 sq foot of black that they painted would become clear to the other side, allowing both sides to see / walk through.

I thought these were reasonable, but they didn't approve.



which part did they find unreasonable. i assumed that creating a usable portal was the goal

and you said it would

"I said it would either work that the black space would stay, because they didnt actually paint anything but black, creating a usable portal to behind the wall"

[Keravath]

A few things to consider ..

1) If you paint a curtain then keep in mind that you are liable to get a curtain ... not a curtain AND a hole in the wall.

2) From the text for the pigments:

"When you complete the painting, the object or terrain feature depicted becomes a real, nonmagical object. Thus, painting a door on a wall creates an actual door that can be opened to whatever is beyond. Painting a pit on a floor creates a real pit, and its depth counts against the total area of objects you create."

The creation does not become real until the painting is complete and you can paint a pit in the floor or a door in a wall.

Either way, I think the INTENT of the person using the paints is a key element of their magic. The paints don't require the user to be a great artist. There is no check needed to get what they are looking for. The paints allow you to paint holes including pits without knowing what the bottom of the pit would actually look like (is it stone? Is it sand or clay? Does the pit open into another room? - the user doesn't need to know any of these to paint a pit - it is what they are trying to paint that is relevant).

In this case, the players are trying to paint out a 100'x6' tall section of a stone wall. I would think they could paint this as a dark or shadowed region which would allow them to remove a 100'x6' x 10' deep section of stone. (Remember that the paint only affects a region up to 10' deep at a time). The material won't be removed until the painting is complete. When the painting is complete the material would disappear.

I think that this also means that the entire painting has to be created by one person. They are the one who decides when the painting is complete and the image becomes real.


However ...

1) The paints only go 10' into the wall, they do not penetrate the other side unless the wall is only 10' thick. If the wall is thicker than 10' then at least one additional layer of painting will be required.

2) If this is a stone wall then painting out a 100'x6'x10' area at the bottom of the wall will destroy its structural integrity. Literally, the tons of stone from the wall are likely to fall on top of anyone near the base of the wall when the base of the wall is eliminated. Even removing a 10' deep x100'x6' section at the base of a thicker stone wall is likely to cause the entire thing to collapse leaving a fairly tall pile of rubble that will be difficult to climb.

I'm not sure this is exactly what the PC's are looking for. If they want to collapse the wall then it will probably work ... this will be surprising and at least initially there won't be any guards remaining on this section since they will likely be killed by the collapsing wall. On the other hand, if they have their army near the wall hoping to create a 100'x6' door into the castle then their army is likely to be destroyed by the wall collapsing on them.

[da newt]

I applaud the intent, and would look for ways to make it work for the PCs, but my realism hangups would make me point out that if you remove 100 linear feet of the base of a castle exterior wall, that wall is going to collapse. I'd make them include support columns or something, and then let them go crazy. As long as the walls are no more than 10' thick, they can RAW paint openings. Each pot can paint 1000 ft2, so they can cover the area easily. As soon as the painting is done, it become real and would be noticeable from the inside (if anyone was looking).

Assuming no one would look at the area being painted during the 1 hr, an invisible dude ought to be able to pull it off with a successful stealth check.

Now, how do you get an army close enough to use the opening - that's a separate issue.