Looking for input on 5e Artificer class tweaks

[UtopiaNext]

Hi all. My gaming group has gotten involved in the Eberron sourcebook and seems to be less than impressed with the Artificer class. We made a few tweaks so far, such as allowing alchemists to choose what potions they make for free and allowing people to mount tiny artillerist cannons on armor, but the general class just seems a bit underpowered related to a lot of other options out there (I'm looking at you in particular, Divine Soul Sorcerer...)

One suggestion that came up was giving Artificers full caster class progression. I did a double take but then actually gave it some time to consider it... and now I'm more unsure than against it. Would anyone have any suggestions regarding this?

[kaervaak]

Yeah, don't do it. Artificers (other than alchemists) are extremely effective and well balanced. The only tweak I make is to give them the mending cantrip for free when they choose their subclass (and acid splash for alchemists).

[Quietus]

Hi all. My gaming group has gotten involved in the Eberron sourcebook and seems to be less than impressed with the Artificer class. We made a few tweaks so far, such as allowing alchemists to choose what potions they make for free and allowing people to mount tiny artillerist cannons on armor, but the general class just seems a bit underpowered related to a lot of other options out there (I'm looking at you in particular, Divine Soul Sorcerer...)

One suggestion that came up was giving Artificers full caster class progression. I did a double take but then actually gave it some time to consider it... and now I'm more unsure than against it. Would anyone have any suggestions regarding this?

Alchemist in general is pretty limited. But thinking it through... full caster progression wouldn't be the worst for alchemist or battle smith. Artillerist would be able to spike some scarier numbers with full caster progression.

[Kane0]

Hmm, maybe the ability to drain magic items as well as create/infuse them. You can drain charges to recover spell slots or render a constant magic item inert and nonmagical for a short time.

[Quietus]

Hmm, maybe the ability to drain magic items as well as create/infuse them. You can drain charges to recover spell slots or render a constant magic item inert and nonmagical for a short time.

I rather like this, particularly with the number of infusions you get. Draining those to generate spell slots would be an interesting ability, though I don't know it'd really increase the specific usefulness of the artificer as a whole.

[UtopiaNext]

Alchemist in general is pretty limited. But thinking it through... full caster progression wouldn't be the worst for alchemist or battle smith. Artillerist would be able to spike some scarier numbers with full caster progression.

The only serious problem I have with artillerist powers per se is that I think the cannons should not expire after one hour. I mean, the Battlesmith pet doesn't, right?

Related note, I think the shield generators (temp hp generators) should scale like the damage cannons do, although exactly how much I am not sure.

[UtopiaNext]

I rather like this, particularly with the number of infusions you get. Draining those to generate spell slots would be an interesting ability, though I don't know it'd really increase the specific usefulness of the artificer as a whole.

This is pretty cool, it seems to mirror what a sorcerer can do with flexible casting. Thing is, how would you rate the "points" you'd get from most magic items? For scrolls and potions it seems clear cut (treat them like spells, use the flexible casting system) but permanent ones don't seem to be as easy to judge.

[Kane0]

I rather like this, particularly with the number of infusions you get. Draining those to generate spell slots would be an interesting ability, though I don't know it'd really increase the specific usefulness of the artificer as a whole.

More specifically:

Drain Item
You have learned how to drain a magic item of its power for use elsewhere. As an action you can drain a magic item you are holding, rendering it inert for one minute. If you drain an item that has charges you can drain a number of charges up to your Intelligence modifier and choose to recover expended spell slots of a combined level equal to or less than the number of charges drained.
Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

[Makorel]

I would start with just giving the Artificer better spells. There's a lot of potential shenanigans that you could do with spell storing item although I've yet to see it in play. Maybe that should be brought down to a lower level too. I wouldn't start with full spellcasting.

[Quietus]

The only serious problem I have with artillerist powers per se is that I think the cannons should not expire after one hour. I mean, the Battlesmith pet doesn't, right?

Related note, I think the shield generators (temp hp generators) should scale like the damage cannons do, although exactly how much I am not sure.

That would be really nice, yes. But those cannons are pretty good, I'd argue moreso than the Battlesmith pet in many cases. As to the shield generators, that would be extremely strong. Realistically, you don't need them to scale that much to get continued use from them. Starting each combat with 8+int temp HP for the whole team, and regenerating it on a round to round basis, is like getting a free preemptive (mass) healing word every turn.


This is pretty cool, it seems to mirror what a sorcerer can do with flexible casting. Thing is, how would you rate the "points" you'd get from most magic items? For scrolls and potions it seems clear cut (treat them like spells, use the flexible casting system) but permanent ones don't seem to be as easy to judge.

I could see it being done one of two ways. Either base it off the rarity of the item (common = 1 spell level, uncommon/rare scale up from there?), OR, make it only usable on an item with charges. Most items (aside from some Common tier stuff in Xanathar's) have 3-4 charges. So yes, make that Radiant weapon or Repulsion shield. They've got 4 charges to do their neat thing, but you can pull those charges to convert directly 1:1 into spell slots. That's really strong, but it's also a very cool idea.

[Sherlockpwns]

I am also in the camp that artificer is in a fantastic, interesting place. The real problem is that Alchemist is just kinda... bad compared to the other two.

The big difference is the other two classes have a bonus action use basically every turn, especially given how easy it is to resummon a cannon and how durable doggo is.

If I were just "fixing" alchemist here's my suggestion:

As part of their level 3 ability give them the ability to drink a potion as a bonus action. This will really cement them into this role of drinking potions mid-fight and preparing many potions.

Then enhance their level 5 ability that a potion they drink triggers twice on the table instead of just once. If you use a spell slot you guarantee one known useful trigger and one random one. Really puts the "Experimental" back into the experiment. Gaining an extra +1 AC or Bless is a nice boost. Gaining an alter self... well, maybe not as handy.

I think this gives you a nice progression of your potion power, all the way to level 9, where you'll be getting 2 level 1 potion effects and a bunch of temp HP as a bonus action and get 2 for free (level 6). You'd probably see characters using one or two level 1 slots per long rest on making extra potions too.

I think all Artificers kinda fall off after level 11 and Spell Storing Item, but that is "ok" - their power is partially determined by how the DM or adventure has given out magic stuff for them to use vs. allowing them to craft magic stuff for them and their party. Also I mean, even without all the cool high level spells, at 14+ they get items that do things like give them (or someone else) permanent freedom of movement.

[Warwick]

Hi all. My gaming group has gotten involved in the Eberron sourcebook and seems to be less than impressed with the Artificer class. We made a few tweaks so far, such as allowing alchemists to choose what potions they make for free and allowing people to mount tiny artillerist cannons on armor, but the general class just seems a bit underpowered related to a lot of other options out there (I'm looking at you in particular, Divine Soul Sorcerer...)

One suggestion that came up was giving Artificers full caster class progression. I did a double take but then actually gave it some time to consider it... and now I'm more unsure than against it. Would anyone have any suggestions regarding this?

If you don't might exercising a bit of oversight over players dumpster diving for busted magic items, I would change the Replicate Magic Item infusion from the rather uninspiring curated list it has now to a simple 2: uncommon 6: rare 10: very rare. (Or, if you feel like doing more work upfront in exchange for not needing to veto problematic items, an expanded curated list). Likewise, the Artificer's spell list is fairly tepid, and in practice you end up casting the same handful of spells because the rest are so niche you never prepare them unless you have foreknowledge that you'll need them, so you could expand that to have better selection.

Spell-storing item is really cool, and it's a shame that it doesn't come online sooner. I'd consider letting the player have a weaker version of this at a lower leve.

Overall, I think the Artificer has a pretty good chassis, but the alchemist subclass is wonky and the list of choices for spells and infusions needs work. I would be careful before making radical changes to the class.

The other thing to note is that the 5e artificer is not like it's 3e precursor: it's not a wizard with extra steps, it's a support gish. If you tack full casting onto that, it would get fairly wild.

[Greywander]

I've also looked into tweaking the artificer. My problem was the spellcasting, specifically how it makes minimal changes to pretend like you're using gadgets while hamstringing you if you just wanted normal spellcasting. So what I did was remove spellcasting and replace it with an expanded spell-storing item system (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEmSINUn9fbx7RbSkU3UBJxNJAynysb-y-QbKPNDElA/edit?usp=sharing). I've yet to test it out, but at least now it actually feels different compared to other spellcasters, and the mechanics much more easily lend themselves to refluffing magic as gadgets.

In general, I kind of don't like how similar different types of casters feel. I made a similar change to sorcerers, using a scaled down spell point variant and recovering some of their spell points on a short rest. This lets them spam low level spells and metamagic for days, but without short rests they'll run out of high level spells faster than, say, a wizard, but not as fast as a warlock.

I'm not keen on giving artificers full caster progression. They're simply not balanced for it. Don't forget their item infusions are a pretty big benefit, and possibly one of the main reasons for playing an artificer. That was one of the reasons my revised artificer traded spellcasting for an expanded spell-storing item system, as it fills a similar niche to item infusions. As for balance, the logical comparison to me is the Battle Smith to the paladin. Both are half casters for a reason. Alchemist does lag, I'd like to see it expanded with some sort of explosives crafting system, maybe analogous to the elixirs.

Anyway, something to remember is that artificers are a support class. They're not really meant to be flashy or take the spotlight. Of course they're going to feel weak; their real strength lies in making the rest of the party stronger, not themselves.

(And I'm just now realizing that my revised artificer is incomplete, as each subclass allows you to spend spell slots on one of their class features, but my revised artificer has no spell slots. Let me see if I can fix this, and maybe add a bomb crafting system to the alchemist.)