Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

[Psyren]

Starcraft 2 co-op is my jam, the game I continually return to in order to unwind after a long day of work. I generally play Brutal+ with a variety of heroes, random map/ally/mutators, which shakes up the formula by adding many different combinations.

SC2 recently celebrated its 10th anniversary with a new major patch (https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23482838/starcraft-ii-5-0-patch-notes), which added some major changes to many aspects of the game, including the Co-op mode. Specifically it added Prestige Talents - these let you reset a commander's 15-level progress back to 1 so you can level them all over again, but in exchange for doing so you unlock unique commander-specific affixes you can apply directly to that character, drastically changing up the way they play in a double-edged sword sort of way. For example, Zagara has a prestige called "Scourge Queen" which increases her maximum supply and gives you extra zerglings, banelings and scourge for every egg she hatches, letting you basically cover the screen in even more of these units than regular Zagara has access to - but in exchange, you give her up as a hero unit, which can hurt your early game considerably especially vs. an air composition.

Every commander got three prestige talents that change up their playstyle in different ways, and of course you can always revert your commander to their standard playstyle if you wish.

As the last SC2 co-op thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600709-Starcraft-II-Coop-The-game-inside-the-game&highlight=starcraft) is past the necromancy cutoff I thought I'd start this one. Anyone else playing, and if so which prestige is your favorite so far?

[Tvtyrant]

Starcraft 2 co-op is my jam, the game I continually return to in order to unwind after a long day of work. I generally play Brutal+ with a variety of heroes, random map/ally/mutators, which shakes up the formula by adding many different combinations.

SC2 recently celebrated its 10th anniversary with a new major patch (https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23482838/starcraft-ii-5-0-patch-notes), which added some major changes to many aspects of the game, including the Co-op mode. Specifically it added Prestige Talents - these let you reset a commander's 15-level progress back to 1 so you can level them all over again, but in exchange for doing so you unlock unique commander-specific affixes you can apply directly to that character, drastically changing up the way they play in a double-edged sword sort of way. For example, Zagara has a prestige called "Scourge Queen" which increases her maximum supply and gives you extra zerglings, banelings and scourge for every egg she hatches, letting you basically cover the screen in even more of these units than regular Zagara has access to - but in exchange, you give her up as a hero unit, which can hurt your early game considerably especially vs. an air composition.

Every commander got three prestige talents that change up their playstyle in different ways, and of course you can always revert your commander to their standard playstyle if you wish.

As the last SC2 co-op thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600709-Starcraft-II-Coop-The-game-inside-the-game&highlight=starcraft) is past the necromancy cutoff I thought I'd start this one. Anyone else playing, and if so which prestige is your favorite so far?

I haven't gotten a chance to try it yet, but the update looks great. Custom campaign stuff all seems good, hoping coop campaigns are going to be a thing.

Toxic Tyrant looks prosperously good. So good I imagine it takes a nerf at some point. Dehaka's are all solid, I like the summon boosting one most followed by twin-dehaka.

[Psyren]

Toxic Tyrant is indeed crazy good. You give up nuclear annihilation but that was honestly a Win More ability most of the time anyway.

I'm actually not a big fan of Twin Dehaka, though I haven't tried him since the PTR so maybe some of the issues I'm about to note have been fixed. They track essence separately, which not only means you can end up with one consuming all the essence and getting high level while the other remains small and weak if you're not careful (this snowballs due to the fact that the high level one gets a bigger and fatter hitbox, meaning that one vacuums up even more essence - and keep in mind, they still both die if any one of them dies) - but it also means you have to level them up/assign their points separately, and their abilities are separate as well. It basically doubles the amount of micro you have to do, but you get less than double the benefit out of doing so.

One of the most terrifying ones has been Lone Wolf Tychus; You can solo most Brutal 0s not only building no other units, but without even needing much if any help from your ally. Zeratul's Mass Super Cloak is also insanely good.

[Tvtyrant]

Toxic Tyrant is indeed crazy good. You give up nuclear annihilation but that was honestly a Win More ability most of the time anyway.

I'm actually not a big fan of Twin Dehaka, though I haven't tried him since the PTR so maybe some of the issues I'm about to note have been fixed. They track essence separately, which not only means you can end up with one consuming all the essence and getting high level while the other remains small and weak if you're not careful (this snowballs due to the fact that the high level one gets a bigger and fatter hitbox, meaning that one vacuums up even more essence - and keep in mind, they still both die if any one of them dies) - but it also means you have to level them up/assign their points separately, and their abilities are separate as well. It basically doubles the amount of micro you have to do, but you get less than double the benefit out of doing so.

One of the most terrifying ones has been Lone Wolf Tychus; You can solo most Brutal 0s not only building no other units, but without even needing much if any help from your ally. Zeratul's Mass Super Cloak is also insanely good.

I noticed Lone Wolf and figured it was either broken due to the boost or terrible due to massive increase in micro.

The odin one seems like a decent boost but not game changing.

Hmmm, how is summon boosting Dehaka? The hive lords were already incredibly strong.

Mengsk's nukes were extremely win-more. It meant I had already unleashed the zerg and gotten back to max devotion without needing more pop cap. This is altogether an upgrade.

[Psyren]

I noticed Lone Wolf and figured it was either broken due to the boost or terrible due to massive increase in micro.

If anything it's less micro :smallamused: You can do whole missions with just Tychus, it's bonkers. The medivacs provide plenty of healing for him if he needs it, and even if your ally doesn't have detection yet, he can either ignore the cloaked units trying to hit him until they do, or just absently chuck a grenade and kill them anyway. Since his ultimate wouldn't be doing anything with him by himself anyway, there's basically no downside.

Even if you do want more than one unit, the bonuses only fall off if they get within sight radius of each other, which is a lot closer than you might think (i.e. they can be on the same screen even). What I typically do is have Tychus in the field, Sirius or Nux back home if I expect attack waves to hit the base, and maybe a third one out too if there's a second objective for some reason. Cradle of Death is one of the few maps where I might use three because Tychus can push towards the main objective while Nux goes after the bonus and Sirius defends the homestead etc.


The odin one seems like a decent boost but not game changing.

It's his weakest one for sure. If I'm pushing into an enemy base or stopping a wave, I'd much rather have the Big Red Button. But it's not bad.


Hmmm, how is summon boosting Dehaka? The hive lords were already incredibly strong.

It's my personal favorite one for him as it makes him much better at defense. Reduced cooldowns and staying power on Glevig and Murvar are amazing. Dakrun is meh but a disposable base pusher is never a bad thing.

[Winthur]

Haven't gotten around to levelling my prestiges but I'm probably going to try the Raynor, Artanis and Karax ones first for funsies (Raynor ones look solid across the board and open a lot of playstyles for an already engaging, deep commander, Artanis' warp mastery, I am told, stacks with the benefit of Nexus Legate, and I hear funny things about Architect of War supposedly working with ESOs and other commanders' static defenses).

Most overrated so far is probably Abathur's infinite Ultimate Infestations simply because you can already win most missions with just the 6 UIs and slowing down the tempo on getting your first Brutalisk out can be brutal even with perfect biomass farming. I guess I am also disappointed with Swann masteries overall as I like playing Swann.

[Psyren]

Note that there is a free announcer (White-Ra, Ukranian pro player) if you log in during the event. His lines are hilarious (both because of his deadpan delivery and *very* thick accent) so I highly recommend.


Haven't gotten around to levelling my prestiges but I'm probably going to try the Raynor, Artanis and Karax ones first for funsies (Raynor ones look solid across the board and open a lot of playstyles for an already engaging, deep commander, Artanis' warp mastery, I am told, stacks with the benefit of Nexus Legate, and I hear funny things about Architect of War supposedly working with ESOs and other commanders' static defenses).

Most overrated so far is probably Abathur's infinite Ultimate Infestations simply because you can already win most missions with just the 6 UIs and slowing down the tempo on getting your first Brutalisk out can be brutal even with perfect biomass farming. I guess I am also disappointed with Swann masteries overall as I like playing Swann.

Yeah, Raynor is definitely going to be my third - I knocked out Tychus first and am working on Karax second. Between us, my bf and I got to play nearly all of them in some capacity on the PTR before it went live, so I have a pretty good idea of the ones I want to target. Vorazun and Zeratul have some rather insane ones.

Agreed on Infinite Abathur, it's a textbook example of Win-More (with a side of making you weaker in early game as stated) - though I could see it working in a ground-only comp (Swarm Hosts + Queens + Roaches in Dead of Night, say) since by skipping air you're both saving gas and not wasting biomass. It's not like those leviathans were particularly useful against hordes of zombies anyway.

For Swann, I didn't get to try Grease Monkey but I'm pretty sure the "double effectiveness" means his turrets now heal themselves to full. It also doubles the range, armor, and attack speed buffs they get from research. I can't see that being anything but OP on defense. I think Payload Director will make tank comps even more viable.

[Dausuul]

I've been spreading my play around since I get bored playing the same commander for 15 levels. I'm currently at Zagara 12, Abathur 9, Nova 10, Mengsk 5 (all in P1 still).

Zagara P1 is powerful once you hit level 7, but not very interesting. Zagara was already kind of a one-trick pony: Max out zerglings, banelings, and scourges. Roll over [incoming wave/enemy base/objective/anything else you want dead]. Max out again. Repeat. Now you don't even have to worry about making banelings and scourges most of the time, they just sort of happen, and you don't have Zagara to micro either. You just sit there making zerglings and A-moving. It works, don't get me wrong--it works like gangbusters--but it's very repetitive.

Very interested in Zagara P2 and P3 though, they look cool. Especially P3, I think I'm going to really like that one when I get to it.

Abathur P1 is okay so far, nothing special or all that different from regular Abathur. He struggles even more in the early game since you can't rush out a brutalisk; on the other hand, 100% biomass recovery means you can make roaches, use them to soak early waves, then kill them and transfer the biomass to better units later. I'm interested to see what P2 is like. I doubt I'll even bother with P3, I can't imagine wanting to play that one.

Nova P3 looks right up my alley. I hardly ever use assault mode anyway, and "sneak into enemy base and nuke everything" is exactly what I want to do with Nova always. Sadly, to get to P3 I have to go through P1 and P2 first. P1's not bad, but again, it's kind of repetitive since you basically only have marauders, marines, and ghosts. P2 looks extremely meh. I rarely feel like have mobility problems with Nova, I don't really need more teleporting.

Mengsk is the one I'm happiest with overall. He was already one of my favorite commanders, and all three of his prestiges look awesome. I can't wait to try out Contaminated Strike once he gets the fear effect.

[Psyren]

I've been spreading my play around since I get bored playing the same commander for 15 levels. I'm currently at Zagara 12, Abathur 9, Nova 10, Mengsk 5 (all in P1 still).

Zagara P1 is powerful once you hit level 7, but not very interesting. Zagara was already kind of a one-trick pony: Max out zerglings, banelings, and scourges. Roll over [incoming wave/enemy base/objective/anything else you want dead]. Max out again. Repeat. Now you don't even have to worry about making banelings and scourges most of the time, they just sort of happen, and you don't have Zagara to micro either. You just sit there making zerglings and A-moving. It works, don't get me wrong--it works like gangbusters--but it's very repetitive.

Very interested in Zagara P2 and P3 though, they look cool. Especially P3, I think I'm going to really like that one when I get to it.

See, I love A-Move strategies as I tend to find them relaxing, so I love her P1 :smallsmile:

I tried both Zagara P2 and P3 on the PTR and they were pretty good too. Her P1 is stronger than her P2 overall but there's something to be said for the novelty of an army you don't have to replace constantly. And Her P3 is crazy good once you can upgrade her and she has all her summons. Infested Drop + Deep Tunnel is a pretty nasty way of deleting something across the map, handy for missions where you need to deal with aggression in a hurry like Lock & Load or Cradle. Her P3 also gives her a new glowy model which is really cool to look at.


Abathur P1 is okay so far, nothing special or all that different from regular Abathur. He struggles even more in the early game since you can't rush out a brutalisk; on the other hand, 100% biomass recovery means you can make roaches, use them to soak early waves, then kill them and transfer the biomass to better units later. I'm interested to see what P2 is like. I doubt I'll even bother with P3, I can't imagine wanting to play that one.

Abathur P2 is best on defense missions. It seems like it would be useful vs. the long-range mutator or the "split damage dealt among nearby attackers" mutator.
Abathur P3 is win-more as mentioned, but for sheer spectacle its hard to match. I could see it being useful on a really long mutator with an extended lategame, provided your ally is willing to help you get there due to your higher biomass requirements.


Nova P3 looks right up my alley. I hardly ever use assault mode anyway, and "sneak into enemy base and nuke everything" is exactly what I want to do with Nova always. Sadly, to get to P3 I have to go through P1 and P2 first. P1's not bad, but again, it's kind of repetitive since you basically only have marauders, marines, and ghosts. P2 looks extremely meh. I rarely feel like have mobility problems with Nova, I don't really need more teleporting.

Agree that Nova's P2 is garbage. I skipped it completely. I really hope they swap that one out entirely - replacing it either with something that makes her more mech-focused, or that replaces her hero unit in favor of buffing her army and especially her Ravens (similar to Zagara or Fenix P1) would be ideal.

I'm working on leveling her P3 as we speak. Yes, it comes into its own at max level by letting you drop nukes all over the place, but even before that the huge radius on her explosive drone is extremely nice - particularly on maps where the enemy tends to clump around something you want destroyed, like Rifts to Korhal or Malwarfare.

Also, Raynor P1 is pretty much the only way I'm ever doing bio Raynor ever again. It's phenomenal - if you ever found Raynor annoying, or if you ever end up on a mutator where getting an expansion is pointless, give that one a try, you won't be disappointed. 4-6 barracks are all you need to deal with nearly any mission.

[Tvtyrant]

This is exhausting. So many commanders that only become fun once leveled up, and leveling up is so slow. At least Tychus and Mengsk are fun and strong regardless, releveling Zegara and Raynor is a nightmare.

I haven't bothered with Dehaka, I'm not interested in any but P2 and leveling him through twice will take too long for me. Stukov P3 is most interesting but I have to level through 3 times for that :/

[Psyren]

Yeah I do hope they nerf the exp requirement, or at the very least let us keep our Mastery bonuses or something. Going from 1-15 over and over 54x is just too much.

So far I've maxed out Tychus, Karax (my absolute favorite commander), Nova, Raynor, and I'm pretty close on Zagara. Then I'll work on Stemann and Fenix, and maybe Stukov/Dehaka before I call it a day.

Ones I won't touch until after there are some changes, whether to the commanders themselves or their leveling speed, include Kerrigan, Artanis, Alarak, Abathur, Mengsk, Vorazun and Swann. Not because I don't like those commanders (I like most of them), but because there's nothing in their prestiges that I'm actually interested in - at least, not enough to throw myself into the grind.

(Karax P3 and Nova P3 were worth the pain.)

[jdizzlean]

i love coop, but i generally stick to normal/hard, and almost never do brutal.

w/ the new changes, i've only restarted 3 commanders,

Nova for prestige 1, because i've pretty much always treated her as a barracks only commander, so having 20+ multi sniping ghosts is a great thing

Karax for prestige 2, who is a major pain to relevel, because super cheap god tier carriers is hillarious to me

Stukov for prestige 1, because mass diamond backs just wastes everything

[Psyren]

Leveling them on Normal/Hard only would be a nightmare for me, climbing is slow enough as it is :smalleek:

Nova P1 for lots of snipes is truly a marvel. Works particularly well against zerg or the special infested in Dead of Night. Of course, you have fewer tanks then too, so hopefullly your ally has good def.

Karax 2 was fun/novel to crank out a swarm of carriers but honestly, I like his cannons too much; his P3 is much more my style. I almost never dip below half energy with that build, and you have Lance up for every attack wave and Purify for nearly every base.

Stukov 1 made me actually appreciate his mech. Just watch our for Void Launch, they can't do anything to the shuttles. Beyond that they can snare some surprising targets though, like the pirate ship bonuses in Rifts, and even capital ships (Leviathan/Mothership/Loki).

[Winthur]

Only last week did I actually purchase the full campaign collection and the Han and Horner on sale, so I actually spent most of this time levelling p0 commanders and I'm still stuck on Zagara levelling. :smallbiggrin: If I wasn't the only European in these threads, I'd help you guys with levelling, but alas, I have no NA account. ^^

[Psyren]

I stopped at Zagara P1. Don't get me wrong, her others are actually good too (she is one of the few commanders with all good prestiges), but I can wait until the forum complaints reach critical mass and they buff leveling speed for those two :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

I hear P3 Abathur is bugged and Ultimate Evolutions only cost 100 biomass, so you can make vast hordes of them.

[Winthur]

I hear P3 Abathur is bugged and Ultimate Evolutions only cost 100 biomass, so you can make vast hordes of them.

That was the case on PTR, I don't believe it's on for live, especially considering that they've already scaled down a few things like the Lone Wolf Tychus boost.

[Psyren]

That bug is indeed fixed on live, which has made his P3 underperform by a lot. It takes Abathur's biggest weakness (his early-mid game) and makes it even worse.

If you have an ally that can carry you through that... well chances are you were going to win anyway, so the prestige doesn't really do anything.

[Tvtyrant]

What prestige ranks do you wish they had made?

I was thinking earlier how I would love if Mengsk had the numbers taken off of his bunker drop ability in return for removing Dogs of War. It would cost a little less, say 20 instead of 25, and be usable an infinite number of times, just air dropping bunkers all game long.

[Psyren]

What prestige ranks do you wish they had made?

I was thinking earlier how I would love if Mengsk had the numbers taken off of his bunker drop ability in return for removing Dogs of War. It would cost a little less, say 20 instead of 25, and be usable an infinite number of times, just air dropping bunkers all game long.

Nova has the most missing potential imo for more prestiges imo, especially given that her P2 is so weak/dull.

- She has additional suits in the singleplayer Covert Ops campaign that they could have brought in, like her jumpjet suit and the gunblade suit. (We know that campaign outfits and movesets are fair game for Co-op because of Kerrigan P3.)
- They could have also done a heroless Nova, similar to Zagara/Fenix P1.
- A mech-heavy Nova (inverse of her P1, similar to Raynor P3) that lets her rush out her Starport and Factory units would be interesting.
- They could have also done a defense-focused Nova, losing the airstrike in favor of the defense drones becoming her mineral dump, projecting much stronger barriers and gaining the ability to shield buildings - allowing her paper turrets to actually hold a chokepoint and giving her a bit more utility in defense-heavy missions/mutators.


Some miscellaneous others:

- A Gary-less Stetmann would have been interesting (though his P1 comes fairly close to what that would look like anyway.)
- I would have wanted Swann P2 (which is clearly meant to be a turret rusher like Karax P1) to have instant turrets. I know you can kind of do that anyway by having multiple SCVs build each one, but that still slows down his early game in a way that Karax doesn't have to deal with.
- Dehaka with permanent (albeit weaker) pack leaders, kinda like Alarak P3, would be interesting.
- H&H P3 is... odd. A general problem with the whole "X is uncapped now!" prestiges (see also Abathur P3 and Zeratul P2) is that few games last long enough for the benefit to outweigh the drawback. With double-cost bombing platforms and the fact that you need to tech up to armories to build them anyway

[Olinser]

I actually did pick this back up when I heard they added a whole bunch of achievements for the 10th anniversary for the Campaign, so I'm going through it in the hopes that MAYBE they'll actually make another good campaign instead of trying to push their crappy creator pet on us.

Bit disappointed in the achievements, honestly, they're all Normal achievements and they're all pretty ludicrously easy. One day did about 3/4 of the WoL campaign and got all the achievements first try. But I'll still 100% the campaign ones anyway.

[Tvtyrant]

I actually did pick this back up when I heard they added a whole bunch of achievements for the 10th anniversary for the Campaign, so I'm going through it in the hopes that MAYBE they'll actually make another good campaign instead of trying to push their crappy creator pet on us.

Bit disappointed in the achievements, honestly, they're all Normal achievements and they're all pretty ludicrously easy. One day did about 3/4 of the WoL campaign and got all the achievements first try. But I'll still 100% the campaign ones anyway.
If they would let me make coop maps and share them I would use that creator all day long. And by all day long I mean the 5 minutes to make an endlessly growing horde mode and quit playing anything else 😆

I'm not sure what campaign they would make? I could see doing the Guild Wars as a prequel, terran v terran campaign.

[Olinser]

If they would let me make coop maps and share them I would use that creator all day long. And by all day long I mean the 5 minutes to make an endlessly growing horde mode and quit playing anything else 😆

I'm not sure what campaign they would make? I could see doing the Guild Wars as a prequel, terran v terran campaign.

There's literally dozens of ideas out there that players have suggested.

The primary ones people wanted were:

Protoss: Far and away people wanted an Alarak campaign - PLENTIFUL possibilities for the nominally evil Protoss faction to get into conflicts with all of the other parties and plenty of story ideas there, possibilities were endless

Zerg: Niadra (the Queen that Kerrigan implanted to kill the Protoss ship that passed out of the range of the Swarm) - again, possibilities are endless for a Queen that effectively grew her own Swarm, grown outside the control of Zagara now that Kerrigan is gone, coming back into the galaxy. Plentiful story possibilities and ways for her to come into conflict with all the major races and factions.

Alternately, a Stukov campaign, lots of possibilities there for what the heck he's been doing all these years, and what exactly he plans to do now that Amon is gone.



Terran: Multitude of possibilities here, from a Raynor's Raider's campaign after the end, a Tosh campaign, if you wanted a past campaign you could have a great Warfield or even Duke campaign flashback style before their deaths. And of course you could bring back the UED, or go to the Kel-Morian Combine for a full campaign.


Instead of any of those great options they tried to push their stupid creator pet waifu ghost on us with a bunch of crappy gimmick arcade missions that took them literally MONTHS to release a pack of 3 missions, and it literally killed campaigns. Like seriously WHAT THE HELL was up with that stupid bike mission, with the time it took to program that crap they could have made a bunch of other missions with the standard engine and actually given us content value.

[Tvtyrant]

There's literally dozens of ideas out there that players have suggested.

The primary ones people wanted were:

Protoss: Far and away people wanted an Alarak campaign - PLENTIFUL possibilities for the nominally evil Protoss faction to get into conflicts with all of the other parties and plenty of story ideas there, possibilities were endless

Zerg: Niadra (the Queen that Kerrigan implanted to kill the Protoss ship that passed out of the range of the Swarm) - again, possibilities are endless for a Queen that effectively grew her own Swarm, grown outside the control of Zagara now that Kerrigan is gone, coming back into the galaxy. Plentiful story possibilities and ways for her to come into conflict with all the major races and factions.

Alternately, a Stukov campaign, lots of possibilities there for what the heck he's been doing all these years, and what exactly he plans to do now that Amon is gone.



Terran: Multitude of possibilities here, from a Raynor's Raider's campaign after the end, a Tosh campaign, if you wanted a past campaign you could have a great Warfield or even Duke campaign flashback style before their deaths. And of course you could bring back the UED, or go to the Kel-Morian Combine for a full campaign.


Instead of any of those great options they tried to push their stupid creator pet waifu ghost on us with a bunch of crappy gimmick arcade missions that took them literally MONTHS to release a pack of 3 missions, and it literally killed campaigns. Like seriously WHAT THE HELL was up with that stupid bike mission, with the time it took to program that crap they could have made a bunch of other missions with the standard engine and actually given us content value.

I think some missions from onlookers in the past would be cool. I would love to play the Fall of Tarsonis from the Confederate side, trying to rescue the capital planets and failing.

On Coop specifically; I have playing Left 2 Die as a change of pace, and I really want an Overmind commander that uses the Left 2 Die Zerg. There are a bunch of cool zerg hero monsters like Kabomers and Spotters that would be fantastic to play with, and we only have one Amon supporting commander right now.

[Psyren]

What I would love above most other asks, would be being able to play through the singleplayer campaign solo as one of the co-op commanders (including prestiges) of the appropriate faction. I believe there's a mod that does something like this but I have to go dig it up.

I'm not opposed to the idea of playable special infested but most of them are pretty slow moving, so they would need to be tweaked.

[Tvtyrant]

What I would love above most other asks, would be being able to play through the singleplayer campaign solo as one of the co-op commanders (including prestiges) of the appropriate faction. I believe there's a mod that does something like this but I have to go dig it up.

I'm not opposed to the idea of playable special infested but most of them are pretty slow moving, so they would need to be tweaked.

That would be awesome! I would love to do that too. Especially Mengsk vs Korhal, throwing millions of troopers to their death to kill Mengsk as Mengsk would be hilarious.

True. I was playing one of the mods of L2D and used the Zerg Controller tower to take control of them and thought "why aren't these usable for anyone?" The Zerg could also use a new commander with more variety units IMO.

[Traab]

What I would love above most other asks, would be being able to play through the singleplayer campaign solo as one of the co-op commanders (including prestiges) of the appropriate faction. I believe there's a mod that does something like this but I have to go dig it up.

I'm not opposed to the idea of playable special infested but most of them are pretty slow moving, so they would need to be tweaked.

Thats actually a pretty cool idea. Speaking of mods, I was having fun watching old youtube videos from this guy named Lowko and he was playing this mod that does "real scale" units for the three factions. Zerglings are like these little specks on the screen, leviathans are larger than entire bases, etc etc etc. Seemed like it also included tons of different upgrades, extra units, and different abilities for each faction. These were made a couple years back, no clue if they still exist out there or work with the current game

[Psyren]

Thats actually a pretty cool idea. Speaking of mods, I was having fun watching old youtube videos from this guy named Lowko and he was playing this mod that does "real scale" units for the three factions. Zerglings are like these little specks on the screen, leviathans are larger than entire bases, etc etc etc. Seemed like it also included tons of different upgrades, extra units, and different abilities for each faction. These were made a couple years back, no clue if they still exist out there or work with the current game

Lowko (https://starcraft2.com/profile/2/1/227898) is a well-known SC2 commentator and streamer :smallsmile: he's also one of the announcers you can purchase from Blizzard as licensed DLC to spice up your own games (including co-op).

The scale mod he was showing off was for ladder matches, i.e. regular PvP Starcraft - which is why he was able to use and show off units that aren't present in any of the current co-op factions (e.g. Protoss Motherships.) And yes, some of the size changes are pretty stunning - it's hard to appreciate how freaking big drones and SCVs are lorewise when you're looking at your mineral line at the start of a game.


That would be awesome! I would love to do that too. Especially Mengsk vs Korhal, throwing millions of troopers to their death to kill Mengsk as Mengsk would be hilarious.

It's interesting too because co-op officially takes place in an alternate reality, roughly between the end of the LotV campaign but before the epilogue campaign with Kerrigan. AU Mengsk and Tychus that were able to be reformed might very well want to take down the cartoonishly evil one in the prime timeline.

[Traab]

Lowko (https://starcraft2.com/profile/2/1/227898) is a well-known SC2 commentator and streamer :smallsmile: he's also one of the announcers you can purchase from Blizzard as licensed DLC to spice up your own games (including co-op).

The scale mod he was showing off was for ladder matches, i.e. regular PvP Starcraft - which is why he was able to use and show off units that aren't present in any of the current co-op factions (e.g. Protoss Motherships.) And yes, some of the size changes are pretty stunning - it's hard to appreciate how freaking big drones and SCVs are lorewise when you're looking at your mineral line at the start of a game.



It's interesting too because co-op officially takes place in an alternate reality, roughly between the end of the LotV campaign but before the epilogue campaign with Kerrigan. AU Mengsk and Tychus that were able to be reformed might very well want to take down the cartoonishly evil one in the prime timeline.

I didnt know about him being dlc, thats pretty cool. I try not to assume anyone knows who im talking about when I mention youtubers because I have no idea if they are actually well known or not. I enjoy listening to him talk, especially when he posts the player submitted games that seem to horrify him or make him crack up on a regular basis. :smallbiggrin: Its funny, I honestly dont have the level of interest needed to play, despite the co-op commanders being really really intriguing, but at least i can enjoy watching him run around the brutal mutation missions trying all sorts of crazy stunts. And at least I have enough knowledge of the game to understand whats going on and WHY something is good or bad.

[Tvtyrant]

So I moved Mengsk to the Proletariat line, I'm slowly working to baneling Mengsk.

I have to say, the Proletariat one feels like what they intended all along. I actually have large numbers of Royal Guard at the end, even using Sky Furies feels better (they have good DPS they are just extremely squishy.) I wonder if throwing all of my mastery points at RG with this one will make nearly mono-guard viable.

[Psyren]

I didnt know about him being dlc, thats pretty cool. I try not to assume anyone knows who im talking about when I mention youtubers because I have no idea if they are actually well known or not. I enjoy listening to him talk, especially when he posts the player submitted games that seem to horrify him or make him crack up on a regular basis. :smallbiggrin: Its funny, I honestly dont have the level of interest needed to play, despite the co-op commanders being really really intriguing, but at least i can enjoy watching him run around the brutal mutation missions trying all sorts of crazy stunts. And at least I have enough knowledge of the game to understand whats going on and WHY something is good or bad.

I strongly suggest giving it a try - co-op is hours upon hours of fun and the commanders and their prestiges all feel extremely unique and rewarding in different ways. My kingdom for additional maps though.


So I moved Mengsk to the Proletariat line, I'm slowly working to baneling Mengsk.

I have to say, the Proletariat one feels like what they intended all along. I actually have large numbers of Royal Guard at the end, even using Sky Furies feels better (they have good DPS they are just extremely squishy.) I wonder if throwing all of my mastery points at RG with this one will make nearly mono-guard viable.

Several of the prestiges do that - emphasize a style that you can technically pull off with P0 (and that there are even pre-existing masteries to support) but the prestige makes it ultimately far more viable. For example, Stukov P1 that lets you basically ignore his infested units and go all in on mech (i.e. mass Diamondbacks, with maybe some Liberators or Tanks thrown in for certain missions, and amplified by the mech attack mastery.) Or Artanis P1 that's aimed at making a very caster-heavy army, amplified by the energy/cooldown mastery.

[Winthur]

For example, Stukov P1 that lets you basically ignore his infested units and go all in on mech (i.e. mass Diamondbacks
To be fair, that one was the only strat that Stukov used in a few high-level mutations simply because of how much his bio style got shafted, so P1 looks like a straight upgrade to Stockov for everything except Kill Bots. And with 15 mineral Marines, Broodlings and max cooldown on Infest being a natural for P1 Stukov, maybe not even then.

[Psyren]

Bio was shafted? News to me, I still see that one as one of the top picks for Brutations. Last week's for example was Lock & Load with random mag mines + widow mines all over the map, and making you and your ally dependent on spawning resources (which typically means gas starvation), all of which bio Stukov was tailor-made for since he could overwhelm the bombs with flesh, his shambling hordes made grabbing the spawns easy and he could park bunkers directly on the locks to prevent Amon taking them back. I cleared it a couple of times for fun with Stetmann P2 and Stukov was by far my most common partner. (The synergy between Stukov and Stetmann of course making them one of the best commander combos in the entire game.)

[Winthur]

Bio was shafted?

Well, yes - with huge reliance on creep (massive issue on large maps with long distances, like Malwarfare) and constant changes to how bunkers work bio is just really slow and not that impressive; the best feature is that Bunkers are great defensive and unit generating value, but maximizing the use of Stukov's kit is just not as rewarding.

I pick Stuke Nukem from time to time, but for most of the tough mutations I picked him on recently, using p1 would have been a straight upgrade (all Propagator ones are a given, but mass Diamondbacks with their hurtfloor thing are also terrific for objectives like the trains, they're mobile, they help out against mass air quite a lot -- actually, Stukov's anti-air game can be vicious due to Liberators as well). Against HftS, all bio does is maybe, sometimes, provide a decent distraction for Nova's nuke or Zagara's roach drop, because it falls apart really quickly. It struggles against most environmental mutators.

Ofc, in Brutal anything can work, and there are mutations where the zombie mass will work, but I just don't believe it's particularly exceptional for most purposes. If I were to push Brutal+ or something with Stukov, I'd prefer to go with a mech build.

I just don't think Stukov is a high performer right now - though that very well may be a testament to how strong commanders in co-op tend to be. His best combo, IMO, is with Kerrigan due to permanent Malignant Creep everywhere. Stukov / Stetmann is certainly the most exceptional combo for taxing my poor computer. :smallwink:

Part of how I feel is also down to how few solo Brutation wins (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/119l9KwERGP7K2tmMF_1oR5NsQUvlnexcEDoPSN_bRa8/) Stukov has, which seems to imply he's not particularly self-reliant. Or maybe no one has figured out how to play him yet, but given his bottlenecks (relatively low peak DPS, powerful but somewhat clunky mechanics like the Siege Tank firing mode, slow early game) I think he's as low-tier as it's possible to discuss within the confines of the co-op mode.

[Psyren]

Eh, every commander has maps they're weak on. Stukov might require more micro than Tychus to keep up on Malwarfare for example, but he needs less to keep up on, say, Dead of Night.

That data has several faults as well - being based on replays (which most players don't record) being based on solo play (not what the game was designed for), being focused on high-skill-cap players (the ones more likely to try soloing mutations in the first place) etc. I think a conclusion like "X commander got shafted" based on that data is similarly faulty. Remember, a high-ceiling low-floor commander like Kerrigan or Raynor can still end up far worse off in queue play than one like Stukov with a higher floor and lower ceiling.

Perhaps interestingly, I have much bigger lag problems as Stetmann + Zagara than Stetmann + Stukov, even when the latter has more raw bodies moving through the zones. I have no idea why - maybe the number of calculations multiplies when you're dealing with a micro-controllable or faster-moving army.

[Tvtyrant]

I imagine I'm not talented enough to really be part of that conversation, as I never do harder than Brutal II. Stukov has some of the best AA and has a good combination of burst damage from barracks and sustain, as well as having two of the best calldowns.

His biggest weakness IME is people making too many bunkers and tanks because they are so easy to play, and then not having enough pop cap to use the more specialized units.

[Winthur]

Perhaps interestingly, I have much bigger lag problems as Stetmann + Zagara than Stetmann + Stukov, even when the latter has more raw bodies moving through the zones. I have no idea why - maybe the number of calculations multiplies when you're dealing with a micro-controllable or faster-moving army.

Here is my best, uneducated, guess based on second-hand snippets of information - Stetmann's lag is, supposedly, primarily caused by the game calculating in real time whether a unit is fighting on a Stetzone or not, whether it's overcharged, and making checks for their Egonergy where applicable. In addition, if the speed boost is on, the game is also heavily taxed by calculating the pathfinding for fast units. And on top of that, each Stetzone is a particle effect that is actively maintained by the game.

I am not sure whether Stukov's infested benefit from Stetzones (they do not benefit from a number of beneficial effects; easiest to illustrate with an Artanis partner, as infested civilians will not receive Guardian Shell but will be granted Shield Overcharge), but Zagara's swarms certainly do.

That might be the issue: imagine a horde of Zerglings surrounding a Void Shard. Now imagine the game calculating their attack and movement speeds in real time because they're standing on Overcharged FAST. It's already pretty bad with just a Stetmann ally.



His biggest weakness IME is people making too many bunkers and tanks because they are so easy to play, and then not having enough pop cap to use the more specialized units.
The problem isn't really with the pop cap, IMO, because you only need like 6-7 upgraded Liberators to do air waves and Queens outside of Broodling-nuking objectives are kind of micro-intensive for most Stukov players, but rather that his ramp-up is pretty slow. It takes like 6 minutes for a Bunker to pay off its cost as a unit spawner alone, without factoring its utility as a defensive building, and if you focus on Barracks play over Bunkers, Stukov has a problem with unit retention (and additional Barracks cost money themselves as well).

Anyhow, it doesn't really matter; it's rather evident that any commander can solo Brutal and there are quite a few situations where Stukov is a top tier commander (as Psyren pointed out a few), I just think his relative power level is a bit low-tier.

In my book, Tvtyrant, we'd probably have a pretty equal game because you're likely not a Stukov on the level of the guy who, on the infamous Invisible Fast Propagator mutation on Malwarfare, rushed Infestation Level 2, blindly set his infantry forward, passed by my mines set for the first Propagator, and was VERY surprised that his Infantry got deleted, and 3 seconds later, his base. All he did was type "wtf". So yeah, I assure you your experiences are valid because the people who really grok this casual gamemode are in the 0,1% and I'm not even among them. I just think mech Stukov has overall more tools. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I think that's ultimately the beauty of prestiges, because by making playstyle X easier/more attractive to access, they incentivise people who might not have otherwise tried it, to try it. I would maybe see 1/10 Stukovs I get paired with going diamondback before this system, but now with people leveling P1 or getting to enjoy it, it's closer to 50/50 whether I see them vs. the typical infantry strat. Same with Abathur P2 - , I would pretty much never see Swarm Hosts outside of defense missions.

As for me, I only play Brutal and Brutal+ as those are the highest difficulties you can queue with randoms for. I don't have the patience for premade groups except with people I know IRL, I'd rather the system RNG decide. For me, the fun of getting a random and occasionally having to carry or learn something new is the extra element of randomness that keeps the game exciting.


Anyway! Huge update today (https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/23492556) with several co-op balance changes and tweaks. Most notable among them for me is that Nova's P1 has been tweaked so that Mech Nova is now a thing! I tried it just now on Oblivion Express with a fleet of Liberators and Banshees, and proceeded to shred the trains - fantastic! I may have a new favorite prestige for her.

[Dienekes]

Well, I'll join to celebrate 10 years of SCII. It remains my most played game. I can't believe it's been a whole decade.

I'm not gonna say I care much about co-op. I tried it a few times, but it wasn't for me. I like the idea of facing a bunch of different campaign based objective maps, but I don't really like playing with other people, and the commanders themselves just felt like less interesting/mechanically intensive versions of the base races.

But, the editor stuff looks neat, I hope we get some cool arcade games from it. And as a 'Toss player I'm salivating at the potential Void Ray changes.

For too long Protoss Air has been the most boring way of playing the game. For too long Void Ray has been nothing but an annoying rush strat.

[Tvtyrant]

In my book, Tvtyrant, we'd probably have a pretty equal game because you're likely not a Stukov on the level of the guy who, on the infamous Invisible Fast Propagator mutation on Malwarfare, rushed Infestation Level 2, blindly set his infantry forward, passed by my mines set for the first Propagator, and was VERY surprised that his Infantry got deleted, and 3 seconds later, his base. All he did was type "wtf". So yeah, I assure you your experiences are valid because the people who really grok this casual gamemode are in the 0,1% and I'm not even among them. I just think mech Stukov has overall more tools. :smalltongue:

That guy sounds amazing! I have played some really bad games myself; I recently lost a game of Dead of Night on hard as level 2 Zagara, without bile blasters I couldn't keep the base alive.

[Traab]

I watched a propagator game that also had a stun effect. One guy ran raynor and planted mines EVERYWHERE to stop them. Turns out, stunned mines can be propagated. That was an UGLY wipe. You could just see the snowball effect taking place as every time a stun went off, every mine in range became vulnerable and was quickly turned only to do it again to the next batch. Worst part is, it was right at the last objective point (Hence mines everywhere)

[Tvtyrant]

I watched a propagator game that also had a stun effect. One guy ran raynor and planted mines EVERYWHERE to stop them. Turns out, stunned mines can be propagated. That was an UGLY wipe. You could just see the snowball effect taking place as every time a stun went off, every mine in range became vulnerable and was quickly turned only to do it again to the next batch. Worst part is, it was right at the last objective point (Hence mines everywhere)
That's so spectacular I wonder if it wasn't on purpose.

[NigelWalmsley]

Swann and Mensk have cooperative building for their workers. Is there a way to get the workers not to be goddamn idiots about it? Because nothing pisses me off more than selecting three workers, hitting "build refinery", then realizing ten minutes later that I've got one worker on gas and two idle. Basically, I want worker behavior like Age of Empires has, where all the workers will automatically start building the thing when I tell them to build it.

[Keltest]

Swann and Mensk have cooperative building for their workers. Is there a way to get the workers not to be goddamn idiots about it? Because nothing pisses me off more than selecting three workers, hitting "build refinery", then realizing ten minutes later that I've got one worker on gas and two idle. Basically, I want worker behavior like Age of Empires has, where all the workers will automatically start building the thing when I tell them to build it.

Nominally, Swann's workers will automatically assist with building something when theyre idle, but i believe this is bugged. I dont know if Mengsk's laborers are intended to have the same functionality.

[Tvtyrant]

Nominally, Swann's workers will automatically assist with building something when theyre idle, but i believe this is bugged. I dont know if Mengsk's laborers are intended to have the same functionality.

I think that's supposed to be a fluff thing. They work as drafted labor for an autocracy, they don't volunteer for anything. It is slightly frustrating that Mengsk gets it at level 1 and Swann has to earn it though.