Beefing Up Font of Magic

[Segev]

Sorcerers are...underwhelming. Not completely useless, but frustratingly limited and in point of detail not living up to their promise. Metamagic is good, but not sufficient to really hold up. Fond of Magic theoretically lets them get more bang from their spell slots and more spell slots in general, but is questionably underwhelming compared to Arcane Recovery. In theory, Sorcerers are meant to be the masters of a few spells, bending and breaking them in ways that even Wizards cannot, and are supposed to make up for quantity of castings what the wizard gets in quantity of spells available.

I'm going to focus on 2nd level, here, but this change has impact all the way up. What if, in addition to everything else Font of Magic does, it allowed you to upcast a spell at a cost of 1 SP per additional spell slot level? It wouldn't let you outright cast a higher-level spell, but if you wanted to upcast a magic missile to a third level slot, you could cast it with one 1st-level slot and 2 SP.

I'm not sure this is "enough," but is it too much?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Using the spell point as in from the DMG and giving the option of direct transfer from sorcery and spell point is a nice buff and you still need to use your bonus action if you empty one of the pools and want to fill it from the other.

[Segev]

Using the spell point as in from the DMG and giving the option of direct transfer from sorcery and spell point is a nice buff and you still need to use your bonus action if you empty one of the pools and want to fill it from the other.

Does it really buff all that much compared to Arcane Recovery under the same system?

[Yunru]

Personally I make Font of Magic a two-way system, so the transition from spell to Sorcery Points is costless.

[Composer99]

In theory, Sorcerers are meant to be the masters of a few spells, bending and breaking them in ways that even Wizards cannot, and are supposed to make up for quantity of castings what the wizard gets in quantity of spells available. [Emphasis mine.]

Just to clarify, isn't this the other way 'round?


I think cheaper upcasting is a good idea.

I'd also consider giving them more sorcery points. For instance, you could start with 4 points at 2nd level, and your total increases by 2 points instead of 1 at select levels (say, when you gain a new spell level).

This gets you...


Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
10th
11th
12th
13th
14th
15th
16th
17th
18th
19th
20th


SPs
-
4
6
7
9
10
12
13
15
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19
21
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30



I would consider also moving the current capstone to earlier in the class - 10th or 11th level, say?

Since this makes it possible to cast higher-level slots quite early, I'd consider modifying the create spell slots part of font of magic such that you can only create a slot of a level you have normally.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Does it really buff all that much compared to Arcane Recovery under the same system?

Who said you should use it for the wizard?
Let the wizard and other casters use the current methods and let the sorcerer use the spell point one.

[intregus]

Who said you should use it for the wizard?
Let the wizard and other casters use the current methods and let the sorcerer use the spell point one.

I agree.

My table also gives the sorcerer access to all meta magic options at level 3. My table is not a power gaming table and so far this hasn't broken any of our games over the last 4 years. I highly recommended doing this.

[Kireban]

Upcast is nice, but while it wont have much impact for damage spells, it might be a little too strong with spells like invisibility or banishment.

I think that the best way to deal with the sorcery points problem is by getting Sorcerous Restoration at level 2 so that sorcerers wont feel cheated when the rest of the party regain resources on theirs short rest, and by increasing the amount regenerated by it every couple of levels.

[Kylar0990]

Personally I make Font of Magic a two-way system, so the transition from spell to Sorcery Points is costless.

Creating spell slots being a bonus action is limiting, but dropping a spell slot for Sorcery Points being a bonus action makes it effectively useless.

[Amechra]

Honestly, I think this is focusing on the wrong part of the Sorcerer.

One thing that I think a lot of people don't consider is that the Sorcerer is the only full caster that natively has proficiency with Constitution saves (read: saves to maintain concentration). If you combine that with stuff like the Heighten or Subtle metamagics, there's a definite sense of Sorcerers being better at executing their magic. Their spells are harder to disrupt, harder to resist, and require less personal effort to cast.

So why not lean into that to improve the Sorcerer? Give them the ability to use their body as an arcane focus. Make their spells harder to counter or dispel. Give them a second concentration slot. That kinda thing.

Because part of the problem is that the Sorcerer looks a lot less impressive when you can just take Resilient (Constitution) to shore up your concentration saves.

[Yunru]

Creating spell slots being a bonus action is limiting, but dropping a spell slot for Sorcery Points being a bonus action makes it effectively useless.

Oh I drop the action cost too.

[Dr. Cliché]

Personally, I don't think metamagic should be a part of the base sorcerer class in the first place.

It's not flavourful and it eats up far too much design space.

IMO sorcerers should be much more subclass-focused, with the base class being relatively bare-bones, but the subclasses each adding far more abilities.

[intregus]

Personally, I don't think metamagic should be a part of the base sorcerer class in the first place.

It's not flavourful and it eats up far too much design space.

IMO sorcerers should be much more subclass-focused, with the base class being relatively bare-bones, but the subclasses each adding far more abilities.

If I were to redesign the sorcerer I would do it this way too.

[Segev]

Honestly, I think this is focusing on the wrong part of the Sorcerer.

One thing that I think a lot of people don't consider is that the Sorcerer is the only full caster that natively has proficiency with Constitution saves (read: saves to maintain concentration). If you combine that with stuff like the Heighten or Subtle metamagics, there's a definite sense of Sorcerers being better at executing their magic. Their spells are harder to disrupt, harder to resist, and require less personal effort to cast.

So why not lean into that to improve the Sorcerer? Give them the ability to use their body as an arcane focus. Make their spells harder to counter or dispel. Give them a second concentration slot. That kinda thing.

Because part of the problem is that the Sorcerer looks a lot less impressive when you can just take Resilient (Constitution) to shore up your concentration saves.Interesting thought, but this still doesn't make for a solid class, in my opinion. This feels more like a build option for other classes. Moreover, the dual Concentration thing is so very good that, unless you make it super late in the build, it'll be the new reason to splash.


Just to clarify, isn't this the other way 'round?It's not clearly worded, sorry. What I was trying to get at is that wizards can prepare more spells and can swap them out every day, compared to the sorcerer having very sharply limited spells known. The theory is that the sorcerer can cast more of them per day, and can do more with the limited repertoire they have than the wizard can with any similar subset of his spells. Unfortunately, particularly at level 2, the Sorcerer's Font of Magic is, MAYBE, able to squeeze out a single 2nd-level spell slot if they can get enough from their first level spells (I forget if they can or not right now)...which can only be used to upcast a single first level spell. More likely, it's going to be one more 1st-level slot, and you may as well convert them immediately so you don't have to waste time in combat for it later. Meanwhile, the wizard has Arcane Recovery already and is thus also recovering one more first level slot per day. And the wizard's conversion rate for Arcane Recovery is better per additional wizard level than the Sorcerer's, even if the Sorcerer did nothing but convert SP to spell slots.


I think cheaper upcasting is a good idea.

I'd also consider giving them more sorcery points. For instance, you could start with 4 points at 2nd level, and your total increases by 2 points instead of 1 at select levels (say, when you gain a new spell level).

This gets you...


Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
10th
11th
12th
13th
14th
15th
16th
17th
18th
19th
20th


SPs
-
4
6
7
9
10
12
13
15
16
18
19
21
22
24
25
27
28
29
30



I would consider also moving the current capstone to earlier in the class - 10th or 11th level, say?

Since this makes it possible to cast higher-level slots quite early, I'd consider modifying the create spell slots part of font of magic such that you can only create a slot of a level you have normally.
More SP is worth considering; there's something attractive in the ease of remembering how many you have by it being your Sorcerer level, though. Which is why I made the upcasting so very much cheaper.

Moving the capstone is potentially interesting, but it definitely would need a replacement. I specifically wouldn't want to eliminate the ability to create higher-level slots than you normally could, either, which is another reason I don't want to increase the SP given.

[heavyfuel]

The Sorcerer's main limitation, IMO, is their spells known. They get fewer ones than the Bard for crying out loud.

I'd give them an equal number of spells known before changing anything else.

[kiwi5ucker]

At my table, i Play with my own version of gritty realism so I edit a lot of what classes get what resources back and when, and i give sorcerer back half their meta magic on short rests (1 nights sleep) which puts it a bit on par with wizard, so you can choose between either making just as many spell slots as a wizard, or using meta magic abilities. It works well

[Sparky McDibben]

Sorcerers are...underwhelming. Not completely useless, but frustratingly limited and in point of detail not living up to their promise. Metamagic is good, but not sufficient to really hold up. Fond of Magic theoretically lets them get more bang from their spell slots and more spell slots in general, but is questionably underwhelming compared to Arcane Recovery. In theory, Sorcerers are meant to be the masters of a few spells, bending and breaking them in ways that even Wizards cannot, and are supposed to make up for quantity of castings what the wizard gets in quantity of spells available.

I'm going to focus on 2nd level, here, but this change has impact all the way up. What if, in addition to everything else Font of Magic does, it allowed you to upcast a spell at a cost of 1 SP per additional spell slot level? It wouldn't let you outright cast a higher-level spell, but if you wanted to upcast a magic missile to a third level slot, you could cast it with one 1st-level slot and 2 SP.

I'm not sure this is "enough," but is it too much?

My change was to simply let the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points recover on a short rest. Worked fairly well. YMMV.

[heavyfuel]

My change was to simply let the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points recover on a short rest. Worked fairly well. YMMV.

You gave them a stronger version of their 20th level capstone?

With this change there's no reason to ever play a Warlock since Sorcerers get as many spells as they on Short Rests.

I think sorcerers are "meh", but this is probably going overboard on the fix

[Sparky McDibben]

You gave them a stronger version of their 20th level capstone?

With this change there's no reason to ever play a Warlock since Sorcerers get as many spells as they on Short Rests.

I think sorcerers are "meh", but this is probably going overboard on the fix

Actually, I did some math on this, and it actually maths out to roughly the same number of spell slots as a wizard could get back with Arcane Recovery, assuming you are using all your SPs to convert to spells. There's still plenty of reasons to play a warlock (invocations, better fit, getting all your spells at max level, etc); I just wanted the sorcerer to feel like they're "bursting at the seams" with arcane might. Currently, they don't hit that note for me. *Shrug* It was a quick fix, and it was easy to keep track of. Kind of turned them into an arcane monk. I really loved it.

[Nagog]

I think that sounds effective.
I've always liked the idea of allowing them to refresh Sorcery Points on a short rest and allowing them to change known Metamagic on a long rest

[HPisBS]

I would consider also moving the current capstone to earlier in the class - 10th or 11th level, say?

Since this makes it possible to cast higher-level slots quite early, I'd consider modifying the create spell slots part of font of magic such that you can only create a slot of a level you have normally.

The method I settled on is
Level 5: Sorcerous Restoration – You regain ⅕ of your maximum sorcery points (rounded down) whenever you finish a short rest.


This way, it scales up to being exactly equal to the RAW. In place of that weak capstone, I've always been partial to letting Font of Magic create 6th level slots at lvl 20. That'd actually be something no other caster can do. (And reduce all other conversion costs by 1.)



Spell Level
Sorcery Point Cost


1st
1


2nd
2


3rd
4


4th
5


5th
6


6th
8




I agree.

My table also gives the sorcerer access to all meta magic options at level 3. My table is not a power gaming table and so far this hasn't broken any of our games over the last 4 years. I highly recommended doing this.

I'd definitely like sorcerers to get more metamagic options. But I think I'd prefer to grant 1 extra selection at 7th and 13th levels, and open up the options a lot.


Automatic Spell - This metamagic allows you to maintain concentration on two spells simultaneously. To do so, spend a number of sorcery points equal to the concentration spell’s level. On a subsequent turn, you may cast a second concentration spell that is of an equal or lower spell level, simultaneously maintaining concentration for both. The second spell can't be twinned. You may spend 0 sorcery points to concentrate on two cantrips in this way.

Whenever something like damage forces you to make a Concentration Save, you must make a separate save for each spell you're concentrating on, and must declare which roll is for which spell beforehand. Only one spell at a time can be an Automatic Spell.

Boosted Spell (Enhances Empowered Spell) - You may re-roll one of the spell's initial damage dice once. You must use the new roll. This can't be combined with any other metamagic option, including Empowered Spell. You must choose this option before rolling for damage.

You learn this metamagic option when you learn Empowered Spell, without counting against your number of metamagics known.

Close Spell - When the distance to the target of your spell is less than 1/4 of the spell's range, or you are grappling the target of a touch spell, you may spend 0-2 sorcery points to increase your spell attack or spell save DC for that target by 1 + 1 per sorcery point spent.

If the spell has an area of effect, the attack roll or DC increase only applies to the creature closest to the spell's point of origin.

Condensed Spell - If you cast a spell with an area of effect of at least 20 ft on a side, or 15 ft radius, you may spend 0 sorcery points to reduce the given dimension of that spell by 5 ft while increasing the initial spell save by +1 at the area's center.

Alternatively, you may spend 2 sorcery points to reduce the area of effect by half, and impose disadvantage on the initial save for every creature within 5 ft of the area's point of origin.

Elemental Cantrip (Enhances Elemental Spell) - When you cast a cantrip that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can change that damage type to one of the other listed types without spending a sorcery point: acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder. (from the Variants UA)

Steady Cantrip (Enhances Careful Spell) - When you cast a cantrip that normally includes an attack roll or spell save, you may spend 0 sorcery points to forgo that roll and deal half damage instead. This can't be combined with any other metamagic option, including Empowered Spell.

You learn this metamagic option when you learn Careful Spell, without counting against your number of metamagics known.

Widened Spell - You may spend 0-3 sorcery points to increase one dimension of the spell's area of effect by 5 ft + 5 ft per sorcery point spent. If applied to a sphere or circle, increase the diameter. You can't increase a spell's area of effect beyond double its original area in this way.

Overlord's version doubles the aoe.

Maximized Spell - Increase the effective spell level by 1 per sorcery point spent, to a maximum of your highest level spell slot.

Persistent Spell - When you cast a concentration spell, you may spend any number of sorcery points to make it persist for a number of rounds after your concentration ends equal to the number of sorcery points you spent. However, you still lose any ability to exert control over the spell after your concentration ends.

This metamagic can't extend a spell's duration beyond its maximum duration.

-- Can you tell I'm really leary of venturing into OP territory with my homebrews and houserules? lol


All that said, the solution I like best is simply granting each subclass their own thematic bonus spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells&p=24400288). Basically domain spells for sorcerers, but only 1/level, with a focus on out-of-combat spells that aren't on the sorcerer list. I consider it a travesty that "the magic of the storm permeates [Storm Sorcerers'] being, yet they can't even Call Lighting, for instance.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The method I settled on is
Level 5: Sorcerous Restoration – You regain ⅕ of your maximum sorcery points (rounded down) whenever you finish a short rest.


This way, it scales up to being exactly equal to the RAW. In place of that weak capstone, I've always been partial to letting Font of Magic create 6th level slots at lvl 20. That'd actually be something no other caster can do. (And reduce all other conversion costs by 1.)



Spell Level
Sorcery Point Cost


1st
1


2nd
2


3rd
4


4th
5


5th
6


6th
8





I'd definitely like sorcerers to get more metamagic options. But I think I'd prefer to grant 1 extra selection at 10th and 13th levels, and open up the options a lot.



-- Can you tell I'm really leary of venturing into OP territory with my homebrews and houserules? lol


All that said, the solution I like best is simply granting each subclass their own thematic bonus spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells&p=24400288). Basically domain spells for sorcerers, but only 1/level, with a focus on out-of-combat spells that aren't on the sorcerer list. I consider it a travesty that "the magic of the storm permeates [Storm Sorcerers'] being, yet they can't even Call Lighting, for instance.

Both of these ideas are ones I'm thinking of working with the next time a player of mine wants to play a Sorcerer to add a bit of flavor and options. I was thinking of a tier 2 metamagic option at about level 6 which could be any but Subtle, Quicken, Twin, or Empower. Also up to one spell per spell level to 5 per subclass seems reasonable, depending on how strong the subclass is.
I've always thought Font of Magic because it's not an economic use of points, was meant to be for emergencies and wasn't meant to be used consistently. For that reason, it wouldn't really be a starting point for a fix, if I buy into the argument that a fix is needed.

[Dork_Forge]

My personal fix for the Sorcerer touches on Font of Magic kind of:

-Increase Spells Known by 1 at 1st level and 5th level

-Gain another Metamagic option at 7th level

-Sorcerous Recovery (2nd level, ties into Font): Once per day, at the end of a short rest you can recover a number of Sorcery Points equal to half your Sorcerer level rounded up

-Increase die size from d6 to d8, there's not enough in the Sorcerer to justify that nerf to begin with (and I don't think there is even with my other fixes)

[Xenken]

Is this one of those threads where we assume something needs fixing instead of debating over whether or not it needs to be fixed?

Because I've seen sorcerers clean house in my games.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Is this one of those threads where we assume something needs fixing instead of debating over whether or not it needs to be fixed?

Because I've seen sorcerers clean house in my games.

If you have a group of experienced players they will be able clean house with every class because of bounded accuracy.

It is more about choice then power.

[Amechra]

A simple-but-powerful idea: After a certain level, the Sorcerer gets an additional sorcery point whenever they trade in a spell lot. I've not crunched the numbers, so it might be really excessive, but it has the benefit of being both dead simple and piggybacking off of a pre-existing mechanic.

...

Some quick napkin math indicates that, after 11th level, you'd get 44 SP if you traded away all of your 1st-4th level spell slots, as compared to the 31 SP you'd get normally. That's enough to make 6 5th level slots with 2 SP left over, as compared to the "normal" 4 5th level slots with 3 SP left over.

I'm not really sure if that's broken or not. Honestly, I'm more interested in how it makes transforming 1st and 2nd level spells into sorcery points and back value-neutral.

EDIT: Compared to HPisBS's suggestion of reducing the cost to create spell slots, I'm of two minds about that.

On the one hand, it gives you 5 5th level slots with 1 SP left over if you trade up all of your spells into being 5th level slots, so it's squarely in the middle in that respect. On the other hand, it literally doubles the number of 1st level slots you can make, to the point where they might as well be at-will.

Let's say we were trading down our 2nd level slots to 1st level for some reason (maybe to get some extra shield uses?) With the RAW Font of Magic, this'd be a losing proposition - your 3 2nd level slots would turn into 3 1st level slots. With my version, those 3 slots would turn into 4 1st level slots with 1 SP left over, which seems pretty reasonable... but with HPisBS's method, those 3 slots become 6 1st level slots.

[HPisBS]

...
EDIT: Compared to HPisBS's suggestion of reducing the cost to create spell slots, I'm of two minds about that.
...
Let's say we were trading down our 2nd level slots to 1st level for some reason (maybe to get some extra shield uses?) With the RAW Font of Magic, this'd be a losing proposition - your 3 2nd level slots would turn into 3 1st level slots. With my version, those 3 slots would turn into 4 1st level slots with 1 SP left over, which seems pretty reasonable... but with HPisBS's method, those 3 slots become 6 1st level slots.

Is that really a problem for a full caster's capstone? Remember, Wizards essentially get infinite 1st and 2nd level slots for their chosen spells, like Shield and whatever else, like Detect Thoughts or Invisibility. And they get it at lvl 18, rather than 20.

[Amechra]

Is that really a problem for a full caster's capstone? Remember, Wizards essentially get infinite 1st and 2nd level slots for their chosen spells, like Shield and whatever else, like Detect Thoughts or Invisibility. And they get it at lvl 18, rather than 20.

Oh, I was thinking about them getting this earlier, hence why I mentioned 11th level. If this is the capstone, sure, go ahead - capstones basically don't matter.

[heavyfuel]

Actually, I did some math on this, and it actually maths out to roughly the same number of spell slots as a wizard could get back with Arcane Recovery, assuming you are using all your SPs to convert to spells.

Yes, if you only take a single Short Rest in a day, you'd be correct. Arcane Recovery is once per day, but you can take multiple short rests in a day.

But what you allowed is basically Coffeelock without Warlock. Take multiple short rests in a day for NI slots. Even if a player doesn't abuse this by never taking a Long Rest, it's still incredibly powerful.

[Sparky McDibben]

Yes, if you only take a single Short Rest in a day, you'd be correct. Arcane Recovery is once per day, but you can take multiple short rests in a day.

But what you allowed is basically Coffeelock without Warlock. Take multiple short rests in a day for NI slots. Even if a player doesn't abuse this by never taking a Long Rest, it's still incredibly powerful.

Yes. It's also quick, simple, and easy to track. There was a whole thread about it a while back. It boils down to three variables:

- Number of short rests per day
- SP consumption behavior
- Whether multiclassing is involved

My assumptions were 2 SRs per long rest, that roughly half your SPs would be used for metamagic, and that multiclassing was not involved. Like I said, it worked well for my player. Also like I said, YMMV.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is this one of those threads where we assume something needs fixing instead of debating over whether or not it needs to be fixed?

Because I've seen sorcerers clean house in my games.

Yeah, that's kind of where I am with adding a couple of flavorful spells depending on sub-class and maybe one of the lesser meta magics in tier 2, which I think adds more options rather than overpowering. I don't really think there is a power imbalance, particularly on adventuring days with few encounters.
Allowing Font of Magic to essentially operate as spell points with little or no penalty on the exchange seems to me to be OP. A player could essentially cast their highest level spells numerous times in a single encounter and boost them with metamagic, which seems to me to be way out of balance, particularly if they already have one of the stronger sub-classes.

[intregus]

Id say the problem with the sorcerer is that the "builds" that can clean house are probably the same build.....if you go by RAW and RAI outside of divine soul and draconic, specifically fire, the sorcerer class and subclasses just dont compare vs the other casters.

To me the mystic take 3 was the closest design space to what a sorcerer should,have been. At least along those lines.

The 3.pf sorcerer was awesome as it could outcast the other core classes, and it was a spontaneous caster. 5e made everyone spontaneous casters, and since wizards Have Arcane recovery (and circle of the land druids) sorcerers don't outcast anyone. So the two things that helped define it for 3.pf were removed entirely.

4e they differentiated the classes with roles so you weren't supposed compare a sorcerer to a wizard to a druid,to a,cleric etc.

This leaves the 5e sorcerer to really only fit niche rolls and even then they don't far exceed other, classes in that regard. Like,others have stated, the sorcerer class should have given full casting, the ability to,ignore material,components to some,degree,for sorcerer spells(since their,magic comes,innately from,within not knowing how to make all the right hand movements and providing the right components). Their power should,have come,from,their sub classes. Each bloodlibe should have given 2,spells,known that wouldn't count against your total spells known and are on theme.

Metamagics should,have been built,into the feat system so any caster could get them.

I like my "quick and dirty" fix of using the,spell point variant, only for sorcerers, we include the number of sorcery points into their spel point,total as well.

Then they get access to all meta magics at level 3 since a lot of them are, again, very niche.

This gives them a different kind of flexibility than the other casters. We also have 1 homebrew meta magic that changes a spells damage type.

They can choose to cast level 1 spells all day and thats fine level 1 spells don't compare in damage to other higher level spells,or even contrips depending on what teir you are in. But being able to consistently cast low level,spells with meta magics applied all day is in no way OP compared to other power builds and it's fun for the player.

If they blast out a bunch of high level spells right away, which has happened and they do shine in those encounters, is no different than a paladin using of their spell slots on smites in one encounter. And then all they can do is cast cantrips. Ive found that this happens rarely because, again, players have more,fun casting a lot of lower level spells with metamagics all day then casting few spells to great effect every day.

We have had no,power gaming issues but I also understand that my tables care more about role,playing than power gaming and this "fix" might not be viable for tablea that enjoy min maxing.

TLDR: I think the sorcerer as is doesnt offer up nearly as many viable or competative builds outside of divine soul (support) or draconic (blaster) so they can do those two things very well but everything else just doesn't come close when compared to other casters or multiclasses.