Monk should wear Armour and use Staff

[shipiaozi]

Monk isn't usually viewed as a powerful class, but right multi-class(1 level Hexblade and 1-3 level Battle Master Warrior) could greatly improve their performance.

Bare hand attack is deemed to fail with little support, while staff are among best weapons for non-casters, in my opinion everyone except Rogue should use Staff. Monk actually don't need Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows if he or she have Polearm Master, spend Ki on Stunning Strike is much better. Monk also lost Unarmored Movement but their AC would increase from 15-16(Unarmored Defense) to 19-20(armor + shield) plus magic item bonus, which is a great deal.

[Democratus]

Every multiclass: "With a simple dip into Hexblade..."

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Yunru]

Except everything under "Martial Arts"? Gone. It's not just Unarmored Defence that requires you to not wear armour and not wield a shield.

Edit: See you acknowledge that, but...
Yeah, I got nothing. Monk is best if you don't Monk.

[Aett_Thorn]

Monk isn't usually viewed as a powerful class, but right multi-class(1 level Hexblade and 1-3 level Battle Master Warrior) could greatly improve their performance.

Bare hand attack is deemed to fail with little support, while staff are among best weapons for non-casters, in my opinion everyone except Rogue should use Staff. Monk actually don't need Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows if he or she have Polearm Master, spend Ki on Stunning Strike is much better. Monk also lost Unarmored Movement but their AC would increase from 15-16(Unarmored Defense) to 19-20(armor + shield) plus magic item bonus, which is a great deal.

Disagree that Polearm Master is a great choice for a Monk. Martial Arts damage scales with level, at least, and isn't fixed at 1d4+stat. You don't need to spend Ki on Flurry of Blows to get single a bonus action attack as a Monk. Sure, if you've decided to go with armor, you'd need to get Polearm Master to make up for that, but then you're basically imposing a feat tax on yourself to get back to where you were to start off with.

I'm not saying that you can't build a Monk this way, but having to take two other class dips just to make it work doesn't seem like a good thing. A 13 in Cha is also problematic for a class that is already fairly MAD and uses Cha as a dump stat most of the time. Also, many people want to play a monk to NOT be the guy in armor. So saying that they should just wear armor if they want to be better seems like an odd call.

[Aett_Thorn]

Except everything under "Martial Arts"? Gone. It's not just Unarmored Defence that requires you to not wear armour and not wield a shield.

Edit: See you acknowledge that, but...
Yeah, I got nothing. Monk is best if you don't Monk.

There are ways to make it work, but it's not exactly optimal. But a 1 Fighter/X Monk can actually be kind of fun. Yes, you lose out on some features, but others you get to keep (more than you might expect). Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind still work. It's iffy if the 9th level feature of Unarmored Movement works while in armor. RAW yes, RAI is probably no. 6th level basically becomes a dead level of features that you're not going to use regularly, but almost everything else (including most subclass features) still works.

Again, this isn't a great way to take a Monk, but it can give you a heavily-armored character that can do some pretty fun things later in their career.

[Yunru]

Yeah, I'm almost curious enough to mock up a Fighter 1/Long Death Monk X.
(Shillegagh, Dueling, etc., go almost all-in on Wisdom.)

[shipiaozi]

Disagree that Polearm Master is a great choice for a Monk. Martial Arts damage scales with level, at least, and isn't fixed at 1d4+stat. You don't need to spend Ki on Flurry of Blows to get single a bonus action attack as a Monk. Sure, if you've decided to go with armor, you'd need to get Polearm Master to make up for that, but then you're basically imposing a feat tax on yourself to get back to where you were to start off with.

I'm not saying that you can't build a Monk this way, but having to take two other class dips just to make it work doesn't seem like a good thing. A 13 in Cha is also problematic for a class that is already fairly MAD and uses Cha as a dump stat most of the time. Also, many people want to play a monk to NOT be the guy in armor. So saying that they should just wear armor if they want to be better seems like an odd call.

Martial Arts scales with level, but we don't have AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS in 5E, so staff damage also scales as you get better magic items.

[Aett_Thorn]

Yeah, I'm almost curious enough to mock up a Fighter 1/Long Death Monk X.
(Shillegagh, Dueling, etc., go almost all-in on Wisdom.)

That is almost the exact combo that I made as an NPC villain for my group (he went great weapon fighting, though). He was a Lt for an evil druid, and I reflavored a lot of the Long Death stuff as being more nature-based. But with a couple of mooks with him, he made for a frustrating enemy. The archer had a tough time with him (he used the Dodge bonus action almost every turn, plus high AC and Deflect Missile). Spellcasters had a somewhat tough time with him, with decent Dex, Str, and Wis saves and hard to hit with attack spells. And a couple of uses of Stunning Strike against the melee made them hesitate a bit because the mooks could then gang up on them. Made for a very interesting fight with good tactics.

I've wanted to try one as a player, but my current group where I play has a no multi-classing rule right now.

[Aett_Thorn]

Martial Arts scales with level, but we don't have AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS in 5E, so staff damage also scales as you get better magic items.

You're assuming that you're going to get a decent staff to use as a weapon, then. And that's not a good enough guarantee for me to gimp a character for multiple levels until I get it.

[shipiaozi]

Every multiclass: "With a simple dip into Hexblade..."

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Hexblade is only good for non-casters who want staff of power, otherwise Cleric or Warrior is usually a better choice.

[shipiaozi]

You're assuming that you're going to get a decent staff to use as a weapon, then. And that's not a good enough guarantee for me to gimp a character for multiple levels until I get it.

It depends, some characters are build for short adventure where you could choose magic items with certain rarity, so 1 Hexblade allows monk to use Staff of Power.

[Corpus]

If you are looking to multiclass and want armor and a staff, what about Nature Cleric?

[Lavaeolus]

It's iffy if the 9th level feature of Unarmored Movement works while in armor. RAW yes, RAI is probably no.

Interesting catch. You shut off the speed gains from Unarmored Movement, pretty unambiguously, but despite the feature's name that's the only condition armor/shields are tied to. I'd probably allow it, if only because if you're running around with nine Monk levels and some armor you're probably trying to experiment with the Monk's mechanics anyway. And it's not like you haven't given up some core stuff for it.


Yeah, I'm almost curious enough to mock up a Fighter 1/Long Death Monk X.
(Shillegagh, Dueling, etc., go almost all-in on Wisdom.)

Shillegagh seems like a good idea. I haven't overly thought through this, and obviously people have mentioned some of the drawbacks of an armored Monk, but a Druid dip might interest OP. You get medium armor proficiency and you get Shillelagh, allowing you to use Wisdom for your quarterstaff melee attacks. Nature Cleric is another option there, taking advantage of its Druid cantrip, although the heavy armor proficiency is probably wasted on us unless we're a dwarf. (STR makes us more MAD and without it we really don't want to cut into our speed further.)

Downside? Shillelagh needs re-applying, so it's less convenient, and Druids can be limited to non-metal stuff. Action economy is a beast ignored at your own peril.

Upsides? A Hexblade / Monk needs 13 DEX, CHA and WIS to start off with, doesn't really want to sacrifice CON, and will probably want to max WIS and CHA. Druid / Nature Cleric at least drops CHA dependencies, which you might particularly appreciate when you already want to grab Polearm Master to get a bonus action attack back.

You can also just feat your way into getting Shillelagh, although then you're starting to have a pretty big feat tax.

[MrStabby]

I played a shadow monk with a level of war cleric once to level 9. It was awesomely fun.

Yeah, the monk loses a lot of features by doing this, but the features are largely just compensation for missing out on stuff.

Yeah, you lose martial arts progress, unarmoured defence, flurry of blows etc. but you can run round with a great sword and GWM in heavy armour reporting to your targets. Divine favour, bless, shield of faith, protection from good and evil, bonus action extra attacks... yeah. Good times. Being able to use healing word in a pinch is also nice.

[Willie the Duck]

I played a shadow monk with a level of war cleric once to level 9. It was awesomely fun.

Yeah, the monk loses a lot of features by doing this, but the features are largely just compensation for missing out on stuff.

Yeah, you lose martial arts progress, unarmoured defence, flurry of blows etc. but you can run round with a great sword and GWM in heavy armour reporting to your targets. Divine favour, bless, shield of faith, protection from good and evil, bonus action extra attacks... yeah. Good times. Being able to use healing word in a pinch is also nice.

So, here's my question: you just described all the clericky things this guy could do. What monklike things did they do, such that they weren't just a complex war cleric?

[MrStabby]

So, here's my question: you just described all the clericky things this guy could do. What monklike things did they do, such that they weren't just a complex war cleric?

Two attacks base, stunning strike and a bit more spellcasting, evasion... if we had played to higher levels there would have been other things.

Edit: oh and of course shadowstep, an important feature.

[Yunru]

Well they could use the overrated wonderful Stunning Strike ability for one.

[Arkhios]

Martial Arts die extends to all weapons you consider as monk weapons, not only unarmed strikes. By default, that means all simple melee weapons and the shortsword. Including Quarterstaff, so you don't necessarily need a magic weapon to have it scale by level.
Kensei can expand the list and have their weapons be considered magical to boot.

All in all, I disagree with everything OP said.

...and Hexblade dip? Please, don't. EVERYone dips in Hexblades these days. How do you suppose you will stand out as different in any way, if you and all your allies and their neighbours have the same dip as you do?
Unless you're suggesting that you should disregard your companions entirely, and aim to be in the spotlight 24/7. Chances for that are increasingly low for every additional player in your group.

And most of them seem to have forgotten that multiclassing has restrictions. Sure, it's only a minimum of 13 cha for warlock. But you will also need at minimum 13 dex and wis, because you're a monk as well. But you'll definitely want them a lot higher than that for several obvious benefits (e.g. Stunning Strike).
And then you'd need con for not dying so easily, because you're in melee most of the time. Most heavy hitters are in melee too. Since Point-Buy is the most commonly used/reliable way to get at least decent stats, you'll be stretched thin with four stats you need to keep up to pace.

I'm "sorry", but this is a hard "Pass" for me.

[Amechra]

So, first off, the "only" things that shut down when you wear armor are Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense (no duh!), and Unarmored Movement (not the higher level version). You can still Flurry of Blows just fine in armor.

That being said... the problem with picking up Polearm Expert is that it's not appreciably better than your basic Martial Arts attack at any level, and you can't flurry with the other end of your weapon. Effectively, all you get is the extra opportunity attack trigger... and let's be honest here, you have a d8 hit-die. You are not going to stand around to benefit from that.

As for magical staves... yeah, you're probably going to do better just Flurrying. A whole extra attack is probably going to beat out a +X to hit and damage.

---

However, this did make me think about alternate Monk builds, so...

If you actually want to build an armored Monk, you need to look for a race with a natural weapon, then focus on Strength. Your best choices are Ravnican Minotaurs and Lizardfolk, honestly. If you're going this route, a 1-2 level dip into Barbarian wouldn't be terribly amiss. Then go Kensei, because stacking Agile Parry with a shield is kinda hilarious.

Hmm...

Minotaur Barbarian 2/Monk (Kensei) 18. Go with Strength 14/Con 16/Dex 14/Wis 13/Cha 10/Int 8 for stats.
• Rage + Reckless Attack would let you pretend to have higher Strength than you do. And yes, they do work with your Flurry.
• Your horns deal 1d6+Strength damage by default, so you don't have to care about Martial Arts. You'll just have a bonus-action Shove instead of a bonus-action Unarmed Attack.
• Instead of Flurry of Blows, you have Flurry of Gores, which is clearly superior.
• Shields stack gloriously with Agile Parry, for a total AC bonus of +4. You'll be walking around with AC 19 with just a shield, and up to AC 21 if you strap on medium armor.

I could see that being a pretty fun character at a not-very-optimized table.

[Yunru]

It saddens me that the only race with Natural Weapons, a Str boost, and a Wis boost is the Tortle, thus defeating the whole "wear armour" part.
Edit: Or centaurs. Huh. Wonder if that should count more as barding? :P

Lizardfolk would be a contender, but lacks any strength boost.

[MrStabby]

So, first off, the "only" things that shut down when you wear armor are Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense (no duh!), and Unarmored Movement (not the higher level version). You can still Flurry of Blows just fine in armor.


Not really this bit. Your unarmed strikes are doing 1+strength damage. At low levels this is... ok, I guess, but I would hope that as you get to higher levels you would have both better uses for your bonus action and for Ki.

[Aett_Thorn]

Not really this bit. Your unarmed strikes are doing 1+strength damage. At low levels this is... ok, I guess, but I would hope that as you get to higher levels you would have both better uses for your bonus action and for Ki.

I mean, if you rolled for stats and got some good rolls, I could see trying to do an armored Lizardfolk or Minotaur Monk. At least then your flurry of blows attacks are doing 1d6+Str damage, which might be worth it. At least up until you hit creatures that are resistant to non-magic damage.

[Yunru]

I mean, if you rolled for stats and got some good rolls, I could see trying to do an armored Lizardfolk or Minotaur Monk. At least then your flurry of blows attacks are doing 1d6+Str damage, which might be worth it. At least up until you hit creatures that are resistant to non-magic damage.

At level 6 you still get to ignore that.

[Aett_Thorn]

At level 6 you still get to ignore that.

Well that's what I get for trying to respond before the caffeine kicks in. Still relies on a better than average starting array of scores, but this does make it better for later levels.

[Willie the Duck]

Two attacks base, stunning strike and a bit more spellcasting, evasion... if we had played to higher levels there would have been other things.

Edit: oh and of course shadowstep, an important feature.

Okay, so there is a niche to be filled, got it. Overall, I feel that a martial-focused cleric with some save bonuses and having hold person memorized has a stronger argument for 'armored Wis-based guy who does medium combat damage, survives well, and has some shutdown effects' than the OP's suggestion, but you make a case for your idea quite well.

Back to the OP, the level of hexblade and 1-3 of fighter mean that this build really comes online right at about level 9-10 (they have all their dips and have 2 attacks and possibly their level 6 monastic tradition benefit), and stays competitive maybe up through level 13-14. Maybe if you were playing in a one-off adventure or the like where you started your character at ~level 9 and weren't going to go much higher.

MCing/Dipping martials is a real challenge. Any dips delay the progression of getting multiple attacks, and if you are discussing things other than fighters, it really is those things you get at the upper levels that help you stay relevant even though you never go above 2 attacks. In particular for the monk is having the Ki points necessary to use these stunning strikes that presumably are a huge reason why you took the class in the first place.

[Satori01]

A Mountain Dwarf Monk in medium armor and wearing a shield and focusing on STR is a better Battlerager then the Barb class.

Like the legend of Mushasi, you can lose the trappings of of being a warrior...armor, weapons etc as your skill increases.

Of course you can also just take the heavy armor feat, and go the opposite way.

Long Death monk gets you Temp HP and a better "Cant kill me" power than the Barbarian class.

M/C out of monk when you hit features that don't meet your character theme.

With default array ability scores AC 17 with armor/ shield is very possible.

[Willie the Duck]

A Mountain Dwarf Monk in medium armor and wearing a shield and focusing on STR is a better Battlerager then the Barb class.

Where did they get shield proficiency?

[Arkhios]

Not really this bit. Your unarmed strikes are doing 1+strength damage. At low levels this is... ok, I guess, but I would hope that as you get to higher levels you would have both better uses for your bonus action and for Ki.

I mean, if you rolled for stats and got some good rolls, I could see trying to do an armored Lizardfolk or Minotaur Monk. At least then your flurry of blows attacks are doing 1d6+Str damage, which might be worth it. At least up until you hit creatures that are resistant to non-magic damage.

Tavern Brawler feat is also an option, and is pretty handy anyway.



A Mountain Dwarf Monk in medium armor and wearing a shield and focusing on STR is a better Battlerager then the Barb class.
Where did they get shield proficiency?

Yeah, Mountain Dwarf doesn't get Shield proficiency as a race trait, only light and medium armor. (Tbh, this seems to be a very common misunderstanding, either because of hasty glance over rules or because classes proficient with at least medium armor are also proficient with shields, and because the feat Moderately Armored also gives Shield Proficiency).

[Amechra]

Not really this bit. Your unarmed strikes are doing 1+strength damage. At low levels this is... ok, I guess, but I would hope that as you get to higher levels you would have both better uses for your bonus action and for Ki.

I should have picked my words more carefully. My point was that wearing armor doesn't prevent you from flurrying - you can still take the action and make both of those attacks.

Is it an effective use of your bonus action? Not really, unless you take Tavern Brawler, somehow pick up a reliable source of Alter Self, or play as a Aarakocra/Centaur/Dragonborn with Dragon Hide/Lizardfolk/Leonin/Longtooth Shifter/Minotaur/Naga (Planeshift: Amonkhet)¹/Tabaxi/Tortle/Vampire (Planeshift: Ixalan). And yes, some of those options are better than others if you're going the armored route.

¹ If it weren't for their entirely unsynergistic stats (+2 Con/+1 Int), Nagas would be an awesome race for Monks. They get two natural weapons that they can explicitly make unarmed strikes with - a 1d4+Str bite that forces a save vs. taking 1d4 poison damage when it hits, and a 1d6+Str constrict attack that potentially grapples and restrains on a hit.

---

The thing that people tend to forget is that Monks usually start off with AC 15-16, and effectively get +1 AC for every ASI they hit (because you're probably boosting Dexterity or Wisdom). They aren't like Barbarians, where medium armor will almost always beat the AC they get from their unarmored defense. Ignoring shields for a second, light armor is usually going to be worse, and you're looking at maybe getting +1 AC at low levels by putting Monks into medium armor. And even when you factor in the boost from shields... is having a +2/+3 to AC on a class with d8 HD really worth dumping your offense and mobility into the gutter?

Now, there are a few exceptions, more-or-less:


Heavy armor lets you go back to focusing on just two ability scores, and can let you get an AC that's higher than anything a normal monk can ever achieve without a Manual. Sure, this pretty much forces you to make a Cleric or Fighter dip (forcing you to at least have Dex 13), but it's something you can do if you really want that boost to AC. I still don't think it's really worth turning Monk 1 into a dead level, and you do need to pick up an alternative unarmed strike booster if you want your flurries to be effective... but it's possible.
Going back to the OP, you can use Shillelagh + PAM to essentially flip yourself from being DEX > WIS to WIS > DEX. It does mean that your Flurry of Blows will be trash, and you're still burning at least one feat and potentially dipping out of the Monk for basically no gain, but it's doable.
Arguably, a Sun Soul Monk can still fire their lasers at full damage. As in, this is something you could conceivably convince your DM to allow, since it technically just references the Martial Arts Die column on the table and doesn't make any mention of explicitly relying on the Martial Arts feature.


Honestly, though, Armored Monks are in the same ballpark as Dex-based Barbarians. Yes, you can technically build your character that way... but it isn't exactly a good idea.

[Yunru]

From my basic maths, the majority of Monks would benefit massively from the Dueling fighting style (is it available to Rangers).

Also, I have discovered why the Monk's damage falls off a cliff: their 11th level feat, one which for all other martial classes boosts damage, is subclass dependent. And then of the subclasses you've got... The Kensei (alone?) that offers a damage boost (as apposed to the Sun Soul's "do more, not better").

[Misterwhisper]

Someone mentioned use of PAM on a monk.

This is actually a very good idea.

Their reaction attack when someone closes used to deliver a stunning strike is a game changer.

[Amechra]

From my basic maths, the majority of Monks would benefit massively from the Dueling fighting style (is it available to Rangers).

Also, I have discovered why the Monk's damage falls off a cliff: their 11th level feat, one which for all other martial classes boosts damage, is subclass dependent. And then of the subclasses you've got... The Kensei (alone?) that offers a damage boost (as apposed to the Sun Soul's "do more, not better").

And the Kensei's 11th level boost is less of a "more damage!" feature and more of a "your back-up weapon isn't useless!" feature. It'd be a much better design overall if you moved the 17th level feature down to 11th level, honestly.

[GlenSmash!]

Martial Arts scales with level, but we don't have AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS in 5E, so staff damage also scales as you get better magic items.

There is Insignia of Claws, but yeah some magic handwraps or Gloves of the Yellow Rose would be welcome in 5e.

[NaughtyTiger]

Barbarian in Heavy Armor makes more sense, cuz you only lose your basic rage mechanics, but most of the archetype rage mechanics are still valid.

But monk in armor gives up most of its monkness...

[Corpus]

If I were to build this character I am still leaning towards Nature Cleric.
You can still go Wis/Dex and don't have to use the Heavy Armour option.

Human (Wis > Dex)
16 Wis
14 Dex
14 Con

18 AC with Med Armour and Shield.
Shillelagh Quarterstaff all day.

Depending on how you want to play the character there are some good feat options for 1st level.

Med Armour Master - Stealth & Dex focused
Mobile - More the traditional Monk feel
Polearm Master - Aggressive attacker

Then you have a ranged attack Cantrip, and a few bonus spells to use here and there.
Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead
Bless, CLW, Healing Word, Protection from G/E, Shield of Faith.

For serious defense, use Ki points on Dodge and stack Shield of Faith.
20 AC with Disadvantage to hit you at 3rd level.

If you go Dex over Wis, you can take Sun Soul and be more Blasty, or for Tanky take Long Death (as has been mentioned).

[MrStabby]

If I were to build this character I am still leaning towards Nature Cleric.
You can still go Wis/Dex and don't have to use the Heavy Armour option.

Human (Wis > Dex)
16 Wis
14 Dex
14 Con

18 AC with Med Armour and Shield.
Shillelagh Quarterstaff all day.

Depending on how you want to play the character there are some good feat options for 1st level.

Med Armour Master - Stealth & Dex focused
Mobile - More the traditional Monk feel
Polearm Master - Aggressive attacker

Then you have a ranged attack Cantrip, and a few bonus spells to use here and there.
Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead
Bless, CLW, Healing Word, Protection from G/E, Shield of Faith.

For serious defense, use Ki points on Dodge and stack Shield of Faith.
20 AC with Disadvantage to hit you at 3rd level.

If you go Dex over Wis, you can take Sun Soul and be more Blasty, or for Tanky take Long Death (as has been mentioned).

So why nature cleric over druid?

If you are not looking to wear heavy armour, I think the level 1 druid spells are just a little better in my opinion.

[Corpus]

So why nature cleric over druid?

Guess it depends on your campaign/DM.
Much easier to get better/magical Med armour without Druid restrictions.

If the above bonus feats aren't appealing I would probably go Arcane or Grave Cleric for their Cantrips/Abilities and use the feat on Magic Initiate (Druid).
Thorn Whip could be fun to add.

[Lavaeolus]

I didn't go into too much detail on it, but one place where the Nature Cleric will probably shine over Druid -- at least with just a one-level dip -- is with a Hill Dwarf. You get +1 WIS and +2 CON, which is decent enough stats for what you're doing, and thanks to dwarves' unique Speed you're free to dump STR while prancing around in heavy armor.

Of course, plate + shield is 20 AC, and that's something a normal Monk would eventually reach. If your campaign goes to a high level but your DM doesn't hand out enough choice items, well, sucks to be you. And even with good magic items, you've had to make some sacrifices and suffered opportunity costs compared to the usual Monk. You could finagle yourself a better unarmed strike for Flurry of Blows, or grab Polearm Master to try and get a regular bonus action attack back, but keep in mind you're paying feats to give yourself weaker versions of a regular Monk's abilities.

I do like the idea of using the minotaur. You won't be SAD, but it's a not awful way to start building towards a STR build, which gives you some odd benefits (shoving at least) -- and 1d6+STR horns let you incorporate Flurries. Tortle's probably still the more solid Barb/Monk overall, but that's, well, because they're designed around rejecting armor.


Barbarian in Heavy Armor makes more sense, cuz you only lose your basic rage mechanics, but most of the archetype rage mechanics are still valid.

Barbarian's interesting! It's very subclass-dependent, and the RAI is apparently that heavy armour just shuts down Rage (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/801126631926468608). Poof, gone. Maybe you can enter it, but you can't benefit from it at all.

...But that's not really what the rules state. In truth, it's pretty conspicuous that, within the same subclass, some rules state "while raging" and some go "while you are raging and aren't wearing heavy armor". If you can get your DM to actually agree to it, the Bear Totem Barbarian is probably the best for this as, RAW, it stops you from losing Rage's resistance -- which, hey, is a pretty big part of Rage's benefits!

Outside of that, for most losing Resistance is probably a lot worse than gaining the heavy armor AC. Like Monk, a lot of your features still work, but Rage / Martial Arts are both pretty core to the overall kit.

[NaughtyTiger]

Barbarian's interesting! It's very subclass-dependent, and the RAI is apparently that heavy armour just shuts down Rage (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/801126631926468608). Poof, gone. Maybe you can enter it, but you can't benefit from it at all.

...But that's not really what the rules state. In truth, it's pretty conspicuous that, within the same subclass, some rules state "while raging" and some go "while you are raging and aren't wearing heavy armor". If you can get your DM to actually agree to it, the Bear Totem Barbarian is probably the best for this as, RAW, it stops you from losing Rage's resistance -- which, hey, is a pretty big part of Rage's benefits!

Outside of that, for most losing Resistance is probably a lot worse than gaining the heavy armor AC. Like Monk, a lot of your features still work, but Rage / Martial Arts are both pretty core to the overall kit.

If WotC thought Heavy Armor kills all Rage features, they have had ample opportunity to do something about it.

You lose BPS resistance, 2 damage, and advantage on Shoves. But you get 18AC without Dex. It means I can put points into Wisdom.

[Remover of Obst]

I really like the idea of a War Cleric/Shadow Monk centaur (16-14-12-8-16-8). That sounds like a good fit for a Golgari Background from Ravnica.

Why climb when you can Shadow Step or Spider Climb with 3 levels of cleric? Lights too bright - a little Thaumaturgy could help.

(If you DM allows the new UA Feats, then Eldritch Adept Devil's Sight would be very tempting.)

[Kane0]

Every multiclass: "With a simple dip into Hexblade..."

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

You say in jest, but it is frustratingly accurate

[Hael]

From my basic maths, the majority of Monks would benefit massively from the Dueling fighting style (is it available to Rangers).

Also, I have discovered why the Monk's damage falls off a cliff: their 11th level feat, one which for all other martial classes boosts damage, is subclass dependent. And then of the subclasses you've got... The Kensei (alone?) that offers a damage boost (as apposed to the Sun Soul's "do more, not better").

The UA astral hand monk gets a dpr boost as well, and is pretty much the only semi acceptable striker monk build in tier 3+. It really should be published, as it’s like a gloomstalker for monks.

[Misterwhisper]

The UA astral hand monk gets a dpr boost as well, and is pretty much the only semi acceptable striker monk build in tier 3+. It really should be published, as it’s like a gloomstalker for monks.

There is zero chance that ever hits print. It is about tied with Lore Wizard for the most illogically broken subclass to ever be in a UA.

If is wasn't for the fact that MM is a HUGE rip off artist and wanted to make an anime character into a subclass it would have never existed.

[Hytheter]

Is Astral Monk really that broken? I always thought it seemed underwhelming if anything.

[Misterwhisper]

Is Astral Monk really that broken? I always thought it seemed underwhelming if anything.

The arms alone give you:

10 ft reach with unarmed strikes.
Changing your bludgeoning fists into pure radiant damage.
Gives you a bonus action attack with your new radiant weapons that is not just a normal unarmed strike.
At 11th you get 2 bonus action attacks with the astral arms, that is a better Flurry, for free.
At 17 that is THREE bonus action attacks, still free.

Mask gives you Devil's Sight for free.
- Sorry shadow monks, you know that ability you should have always had? Nah, we gave it to the JOJO rip off for free.

at 11:
You can deflect elemental damage by a lot, including FORCE? with no Ki cost.
Once per turn you can add another die to your damage. That is just the Kensei ability, but for free every round instead of costing a KI.
Strange whispertalking at range for some reason.

at 17:
Extra Attack as part of your normal attack action:
that means Bonus Action - NO KI - 6 attacks a round, radiant damage, 10 ft range, + 1d10 on one attack
a flat +2 AC, sorry kensei, you know that key ability to deflect if you just attack with your unarmed alot? We are just going to give it to the anime subclass for nothing.
And even more broken:
if Someone is knocked to 0hp within 10 feet, doesn't matter if you did it, doesn't matter if enemy or ally, heck, you don't even have to be in the fight at all go ahead and spend a reaction to get 5 Ki back.
That is just a straight slap in the face to their own capstone, it is not even once a rest, or once a combat.
Knock out a mook? Get 5 Ki.
Kill a rat? Get 5 Ki.
Oops ally got knocked out? 5 Ki.

They should be ashamed for even letting that show up in a UA at all.

[Lavaeolus]

So, I was a little curious about how, more in-depth, armour would affect each Monk subclass. So I had a quick look at them to see which ones remain as-is, which ones are keying off unarmed strikes, etc. Importantly, I took the view that referring to 'the Martial Arts column' or 'Martial Arts die' was distinct from actually being reliant on the Martial Arts feature; this is really important in one case, but also affects the Kensei's Deft Strike. It'd be a pretty important distinction for the UA Mercy Monk as well.

Way of Shadow and Long Death don't have any direct changes. Sun Soul is also fine, but entirely reliant on my Martial Arts ruling. Four Elements mostly emerges unchanged, except Fangs of the Fire Snake enhances your unarmed strike.

Kensei, somewhat ironically, puts in a limitation that wouldn't otherwise be there. See, when we shut off Martial Arts, we shut off the only Monk feature reliant on Monk weapons; but since Kensei's features key off Monk weapons, back we go. This is mostly moot because Kensei's main draw is that it, ordinarily, lets you use most weapons as a Monk weapon and gain proficiency with them.

Mainly I just mention that because, hey, if you're getting martial weapon proficiency somehow and aren't shillelagh-ing your way around it, it's something you can technically try to make use of. Otherwise, Agile Parry's +2 AC relies on you making unarmed strikes 'as part of the Attack action', so while this is fun for reaching ridiculous AC heights, it's pretty hampered if you haven't found some way to strengthen your unarmed strikes.

On that note, Drunken Master and Open Hand both have bits that key off Flurries, making these options you might want to avoid unless you're a race with better unarmed strikes or a character with Tavern Brawler (and being limited to d4 or d6 could still hurt at higher levels). On the bright side, Drunken Master's Drunken Technique lets you use Flurry to get the benefits of Disengage and an extra 10 walking speed, letting you use it as a mobility tool. The Monk 6 and Monk 11 features for both subclasses rely on neither Flurries or unarmed, though, and if you do go all the way to Monk 17, while Open Hand's Quivering Palm requires an unarmed strike the actual damage of the strike isn't amazingly important.

[Hytheter]

The arms alone give you:

10 ft reach with unarmed strikes.
Changing your bludgeoning fists into pure radiant damage.

So, Sun Soul with less range and an upfront ki/action cost? And mind you, Sun Soul is considered weak.



At 11th you get 2 bonus action attacks with the astral arms, that is a better Flurry, for free.
At 17 that is THREE bonus action attacks, still free.
It's not remotely free. You have to spend two ki and a bonus action to summon the arms in the first place So you won't break even on ki until round 3 of the fight (assuming you would flurry every turn) and even then you'll be behind on action economy indefinitely so even if it's cheaper it's still less damage overall. Even at 17th it still takes three turns at best just to break even. And all that is your main subclass ability! That's not OP at all - it's trash until 11th and lacklustre until 17th, after which it becomes just ok.



Mask gives you Devil's Sight for free.


Again, not free. It costs a ki point and a bonus action.


at 11:
You can deflect elemental damage by a lot, including FORCE? with no Ki cost.
Once per turn you can add another die to your damage. That is just the Kensei ability, but for free every round instead of costing a KI.
Strange whispertalking at range for some reason.

Deflect Energy is pretty solid, but it's also just an expanded Deflect Missiles. Empowered Arms is also good, but is also the only actual offensive buff the class offers until 17th. Even if you posit that these powers are overkill (I don't really think they are), it's not like they are so dramatically potent that they couldn't easily be modified upon revision. Add a 1 ki cost, bam, done, easy.

at 17:
Extra Attack as part of your normal attack action:
that means Bonus Action - NO KI - 6 attacks a round, radiant damage, 10 ft range, + 1d10 on one attack
a flat +2 AC, sorry kensei, you know that key ability to deflect if you just attack with your unarmed alot? We are just going to give it to the anime subclass for nothing.
[/quote]

It costs 10 ki points to get all that. TEN. That's ten fewer Stunning Strikes. Worth it? Maybe. Overpowered? I don't think so.



if Someone is knocked to 0hp within 10 feet, doesn't matter if you did it, doesn't matter if enemy or ally, heck, you don't even have to be in the fight at all go ahead and spend a reaction to get 5 Ki back.
That is just a straight slap in the face to their own capstone, it is not even once a rest, or once a combat.
Knock out a mook? Get 5 Ki.
Kill a rat? Get 5 Ki.
Oops ally got knocked out? 5 Ki.

This one I'll grant you. Cut it. Bam, done, easy.

[Hael]

The arms alone give you:
They should be ashamed for even letting that show up in a UA at all.

I played one from lvl 3 to lvl 9, and its definitely not OP. Far from it. In terms of martial tier lists, it would be well below standard things like conquest paladins, hexblades, SS/XBE fighters or gloomstalkers (etc etc). The lore wizard isn't even in the same universe.

It's a very heavy resource using class, that fixes a lot of the problems with the weak base class. In practice what matters the most is the reach advantage. That's a big deal, b/c it allows the monk to do something that it always should have always been able too, namely to freely skirmish, without getting tagged by oas. Anyone who has ever played a monk as an off tank is perpetually annoyed by how easy it is that ranged classes can take out the monks primary targets, faster and more safely than the monk can himself. The ranged/melee issue is a big problem with 5e in general, but I think its by far the most apparent for monks. This subclass solves that problem to some degree.

The only questionable things is devilsight (which by itself isnt too crazy, but can be if you have a party made for it). Anyway, the wording of the lvl 17 ability should be changed to once or twice per short rest, and that would be far from OP compared to most other capstones. It's only b/c the base monks capstone itself is such garbage, that it seems strong. (it isn't, it basically just refunds some of the extra resource costs of the class, which are much more significant than other monks)