New Eberron Book Today

[jaappleton]

Exploring Eberron, authored by the man himself, Keith Baker, released today on the DMs Guild. https://www.dmsguild.com/product/315887/Exploring-Eberron

Now, I know what many are thinking right away:

"Oh... DMs Guild.... So not a REAL book."

And your thought process does have some merit, I'll grant you that, for sure.

However, who knows Eberron better than Keith himself? And he was a designer for WOTC for years, and worked alongside the design team for Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron as well as Eberron: Rising From The Last War.

As far as "is this content up to snuff?", you're not going to get any closer to being a "real" book than this. Heck, I'd certainly say this is closer to a "real" book than Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, but that's just my personal opinion.

From the description:

You'll discover new archetypes for the artificer, cleric, druid, monk, and bard. Play unique Eberron races and subraces including gnolls, Dhakaani goblinoids, aasimar of diverse faiths, and ruinbound dwarves. Uncover a wealth of magic items from around the world, wield symbionts that bond with your very flesh, channel your dragonmark with focus items—and perhaps even manifest a Siberys dragonmark of immense power.

[Evaar]

I'm planning to pick it up, though it'll be hardcover assuming the price is reasonable.

D&D Beyond did an interview with Keith this week as well where they go through some of the mechanical options in depth.

I really love Eberron as a setting so I'm hyped to get more fluff. The main feature seems to be a deep exploration of the planes - at least, that's what Keith mostly talks about when asked. But I think we're getting more on Droaam and other mostly-underdeveloped locales in the setting too.

He did mention a few things that aren't there - not much about the Demon Wastes, Eldeen Reaches, Shadow Marches, no new psionics mechanics (although the Cleric is getting a Mind domain which is psionically flavored and offers the ability to swap Radiant damage to Psychic damage).

[jaappleton]

Dirge Singer - Bard
Mind Domain - Cleric
Way of the Living Weapon - Monk
Circle of the Forged - Druid
Maverick - Artificer
Forge Adept - Artificer

Those are the player subclasses. I'm super excited to see those.

Along with new races, new Aasimar options, new magic items and Artificer Infusions, I'm quite intrigued.

My ONLY concern is this:

I use D&D Beyond. My DM is across the country, he shares my account. I am really hopeful this book gets put on Beyond, for ease of use with the character builder and such, I really don't want to have to code it all in myself. So do I buy it from DMs Guild and go that route, or hope against hope that it'll be put into Beyond?

[Connington]

So do I buy it from DMs Guild and go that route, or hope against hope that it'll be put into Beyond?

Not likely. Content from DMsGuild doesn't show up on D&D Beyond unless you're Matt Mercer.

[jaappleton]

Not likely. Content from DMsGuild doesn't show up on D&D Beyond unless you're Matt Mercer.

Before about three weeks ago? I agreed.

Maybe a month ago, during a Development Update with Beyond (A youtube series where they kinda roadmap what they're working on), they updated something:

They now have D&D Core Content, Non-Core Content, and Partnered Content. That's aside from Critical Role content, and Unearthed Arcana.

Partnered Content was the Runeterra crossover content with the League of Legends stuff, which was free but is leaving completely in August (and honestly its pretty broken, sorry).
Non-Core is interesting, they didn't elaborate too much. I think that might be something like the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount book which is... I mean its an official book, but also kinda not in many aspects.

I'm hopeful that this book will go into Non-Core or Partnered. Because honestly, if it doesn't, its such a damn waste of an opportunity. It really is.

[Sam113097]

The DM of None podcast just put out a very interesting interview with Keith Baker about the book, seems like it goes into a lot of the "deeper" lore about Eberron that's been left out of previous WotC-published books due to space/length.

[jaappleton]

The DM of None podcast just put out a very interesting interview with Keith Baker about the book, seems like it goes into a lot of the "deeper" lore about Eberron that's been left out of previous WotC-published books due to space/length.

They also did a Todd Talks on the Beyond YT channel as well.

[HPisBS]

Dirge Singer - Bard
Mind Domain - Cleric
Way of the Living Weapon - Monk
Circle of the Forged - Druid
Maverick - Artificer
Forge Adept - Artificer

Those are the player subclasses. I'm super excited to see those.

Along with new races, new Aasimar options, new magic items and Artificer Infusions, I'm quite intrigued.

Oho! First an Eloquence Bard and now a Dirge Singer Bard, "Living Weapon" Monk, and 2 Artificers, + new infusions? We're getting all kinds of goodies this year.

... I wonder if we'll get any new worthwhile items thanks to Baldur's Gate 3? Especially for the Monk

[jaappleton]

So Keith Baker just confirmed the content will not be on Beyond.

Such a wasted opportunity. Truly.

[MaxWilson]

Great, thanks jaapleton! I've been looking forward to this release but hadn't previously been able to locate a release date.


Exploring Eberron, authored by the man himself, Keith Baker, released today on the DMs Guild. https://www.dmsguild.com/product/315887/Exploring-Eberron

Now, I know what many are thinking right away:

"Oh... DMs Guild.... So not a REAL book."

And your thought process does have some merit, I'll grant you that, for sure.

However, who knows Eberron better than Keith himself? And he was a designer for WOTC for years, and worked alongside the design team for Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron as well as Eberron: Rising From The Last War.

As far as "is this content up to snuff?", you're not going to get any closer to being a "real" book than this. Heck, I'd certainly say this is closer to a "real" book than Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, but that's just my personal opinion.

From the description:

You'll discover new archetypes for the artificer, cleric, druid, monk, and bard. Play unique Eberron races and subraces including gnolls, Dhakaani goblinoids, aasimar of diverse faiths, and ruinbound dwarves. Uncover a wealth of magic items from around the world, wield symbionts that bond with your very flesh, channel your dragonmark with focus items—and perhaps even manifest a Siberys dragonmark of immense power.

I was really impressed with Rising From the Last War: it's probably the best book WotC has released for 5E, not just in terms of being an interesting setting which supports lots of freedom for PCs but even little things like layout, and being smart enough for once to actually put the Artificer spell list right in the Artificer class description.

The one thing I'm not a fan of in Keith's approach is his insistence that fluff ("story") is distinct from mechanics and can be reflavored freely. It bugs me for example that Artificer spells still require verbal and somatic components, and when Keith advocates representing a telekinetic shield for a psionic Riedran as Barbarian rage and just ignoring the "angry" fluff, I'm like... "but then when is attacking or taking damage still necessary? Rage is very clearly about angry, not telekinesis." IMO refluffing without changing mechanics is lazy... but that doesn't change the excellence of the worldbuilding, it just means that I may need to retweak some of his suggestions to make them more mechanically appropriate, and that's the easy part. Fortunately I still own the Complete Psionics Handbook so of course if I want a psionic Riedra I can always just make one using AD&D rules (converting power checks to 3d6 rolls instead of d20 to emphasize the importance of modifiers).

One of the really awesome things about good settings books like Rising From the Last War, which describes a world while still leaving plenty of DM-dependent mystery in it, is that you can actually encourage players to read and refer to the books, to immerse themselves in the world and learn the things that are common knowledge to their characters. It's sort of like playing in the same setting as a popular fiction series (Dresden Files): you show the players something which makes them realize that they're mixed up in something in which [big player, e.g. Lord of Blades, or the Genoskwa] is involved, and you can expect an emotional reaction as well even if it's the first time you personally have mentioned this big player at the game table, because the players already know and care about the lore. It's nice if you want a complex world with lots of actors.

I still can't believe the Genoskwa actually survived the ice blocks. I have no idea how, but at least now we know why no coin popped out of the mangled wreckage... it was still alive. That dude is even scarier than I thought.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Envoy and Juggernaut back as feats, a crazy looking (I can't be the only one thinking it's totally broken) Artificer subclass based on stealing other classes spells? Gnolls, Aasimar, cool punching monk?

Even just looking at this for its player content, I'm enjoying it. I'm sure anyone looking for lore bits would be thrilled.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I really like the book. I mean I read all the articles on the keith baker website thingy, I'd say this is pretty official. It's a bit of a shame if the subclasses and subraces and whatever don't count as technically official, but I'd allow them in my games. I very much want to play a dirge singer bard.

[8wGremlin]

Envoy and Juggernaut back as feats, a crazy looking (I can't be the only one thinking it's totally broken) Artificer subclass based on stealing other classes spells? Gnolls, Aasimar, cool punching monk?

Even just looking at this for its player content, I'm enjoying it. I'm sure anyone looking for lore bits would be thrilled.

I was thinking that, but then looked at the spell progression of the Artificer, and the limit of the stolen spells which is a level below your lowest level, they are quite limited.

I'll see if I can break it, but honestly it looked bad at first glance but take a deeper look, and do the maths.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I was thinking that, but then looked at the spell progression of the Artificer, and the limit of the stolen spells which is a level below your lowest level, they are quite limited.

I'll see if I can break it, but honestly it looked bad at first glance but take a deeper look, and do the maths.

What do you mean, the progression matches, 3rd gives 1st, 5th gives 2nd and so on. I don't see any level below aspect.

[8wGremlin]

What do you mean, the progression matches, 3rd gives 1st, 5th gives 2nd and so on. I don't see any level below aspect.

I'm wrong, you're right, I thought was one level out. my mistake.
Does make it a lot more potent.


Artificer: Maverick

so what 1 first level spell would you pick? 2nd, 3rd, etc.

Is this more or less powerful than the Divine Soul Sorcerer?

[MaxWilson]

I'm wrong, you're right, I thought was one level out. my mistake.
Does make it a lot more potent.


Artificer: Maverick

so what 1 first level spell would you pick? 2nd, 3rd, etc.

Is this more or less powerful than the Divine Soul Sorcerer?

Less powerful. Maverick is still very limited in spellslots, doesn't get Symbol or Teleport or Holy Aura or Wish, etc. Maverick is very interesting, but it's not overpowered AFAICT, even relative to other Artificers.

It's weird to me and a little sad than Dhaakani goblins don't get Nimble Escape. It makes them worse than regular goblins despite having Stealth Expertise.

Aereni Elf fighters are the new kings of at-will solo DPR. Athletics Expertise (Aereni feature) + Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter + Elven Accuracy = a ton of tri-vantage Sharpshooter-boosted attacks against a prone target every round. Not game-breaking but still potentially exciting.

I thought the changeling feats were cool, and the new soldier hobgoblins are also an improvement over Volo's hobgoblins in terms of flavor despite being mechanically slightly weaker. Living Weapon Nightmare variant is a super interesting monk style due to the ability to target Wisdom (fear) as well as Con (stunning). The extra damage isn't terrible either. Interesting flavor too.

I'd allow any of these in my campaign, but I would also allow swapping Goblin Stealth Expertise (for the spy variant) for Nimble Escape. If you make that change then I like this goblin better than the Rising From the Last War/Volo's Goblin--Fury of the Small has always felt out of place.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm wrong, you're right, I thought was one level out. my mistake.
Does make it a lot more potent.


Artificer: Maverick

so what 1 first level spell would you pick? 2nd, 3rd, etc.

Is this more or less powerful than the Divine Soul Sorcerer?

That's the other thing, you're not picking one spell, you're a prepared caster. You have that spell list for the rest of your adventuring career.

Sorcerer is a bad pick, there's only a single unique Sorcerer spell in the game. Wizard is obviously a fantastic pick having the largest list without the Wizards one weakness of not being able to prepare them at will, Druid is decent as well. Paladin has a pretty good high level appeal because of their fantastic 5th level spells.

EDIT: Max is obviously correct though, not having high level spells makes you worse than a full caster. I personally place a lot of value on versatility, and this Artificer will well and truly have any option up to 5th level covered, although much later than a full caster.

[sambojin]

Anyone want to give a brief synopsis of Circle of the Forged druid? I can't really find anything other than it lets you be a dinobot. Might pick up the book just for that.

[stoutstien]

Book ordered. The material that KB and his team produces is amazing and I will always try to support guys like him to stay at it.
Does help it's my favorite setting.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Anyone want to give a brief synopsis of Circle of the Forged druid? I can't really find anything other than it lets you be a dinobot. Might pick up the book just for that.

It gives you the same beast options that Moon Druid does (CR Wise) and you gain benefits similar to as if you were a Warforged while transformed (+2 AC and the usual construct things like not sleeping or eating).

Level 6 has you pick an element between Acid, Cold, Fire and Lightning when you wild shape and it augments your attacks while wild shaped in various ways.

The first time you hit a creature in a turn you can expend a spell slot, kind of like smiting, to deal 1d6 of that damage type scaling up to 5d6 maximum and on failed con saves against your spell DC they suffer an effect based on the damage type you chose (AC reduction, Movement 0, Flat damage or loss of Reaction)

Level 10 gives you nonmagical BPS resistance and lets you wild shape as a reaction to being hit, having the attack strike your wild shaped hit points.

Level 14 you become immune to Poison (the damage and condition) as well as Charm, Fear, Paralysis and Petrification while wild shaped.

[x3n0n]

Aereni Elf fighters are the new kings of at-will solo DPR. Athletics Expertise (Aereni feature) + Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter + Elven Accuracy = a ton of tri-vantage Sharpshooter-boosted attacks against a prone target every round. Not game-breaking but still potentially exciting.

In case anybody else is also confused, I was mis-remembering prone:


An Attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the Attack roll has disadvantage.

(I had thought disadvantage applied to ranged attacks, but point-blank Crossbow Expert shots work just fine.)

Nice find. :)

[sambojin]

Ouch. That seems kinda powerful. Just a far better combat bear than a Moon, with damage boosting, a touch extra AC, damage mitigation, and some useful side things for casting/ tanking later on.

"Sleeping" the entire night's watch as a killer whale is a "stupid druid trick" that immediately came to mind. Or a giant scorpion, if the DM thinks that's too silly. 120' blindsight (only 60' with the scorpion), RAW, all night, every time you rest, for you and the party.

I wonder if the AC calculation would stack with things like Mage Armour or Monk AC?


Follow up question : are there any interesting creatures in the book (especially beasts, Fey or elementals)?

[jaappleton]

Full disclosure in the Druid circle:

Keith Baker himself has admitted to shamelessly being a huge fan of the Decepticon known as Ravage, from Transformers. There’s zero doubt that was a huge inspiration for it, as he also said he pushed the design team to have Warforged that use Beast Shape to be more.... composite and such in appearance, but they wouldn’t go for it.

Now, back to the mechanics:

Mind Domain. It works. It’s not sexy or exciting, but it certainly works, no problems there.

Dirge Singer Bard. Not what I expected! I recall Dirge Singers being much more like Bard Necromancers, or am I misremembering? This Bard, while AWESOME, shares little in common with that. In fact, this is very Warlord-y. In exchange for slowing your Inspiration die progression (stay at d6 at 5th, then moving to d8, etc) your die can impact two allies simultaneously, and at 6th level you can use your Reaction to burn an inspiration die to grant an ally an additional attack when they take the attack action. That is SO GOOD!

Forged Druid. I really love this. It scales a little better than Moon because, after CR2 Beasts, it’s a bit of a lull until you’d normally get Elemental Shape. And while those forms are quite good, I feel this Forged Circle scales more consistently, by letting you mini-Smite with the nice riders. Is it more powerful than Moon? At certain levels, yeah, but it also falls behind Moon at other points, for sure. But Forged also undoubtedly burns through your resources more, as well. I love it. Unique, and fun. It retreads Moon a bit while also giving a fresh take on it.

Living Weapon Monk... It’s quite interesting to me. For anyone looking to really lean into a animalistic or beast oriented PC, this let’s you do that 24/7. Seriously, unlike something like the Barbarian or Druid, you could actually mechanically play a Wolf or something like 100% of the time. Your attacks can deal any mundane damage type, it has a decent selection of abilities, there’s not much to dislike here. Small damage boost at lv6, and another at 11 (IMO something Monks DESPERATELY need at that point!), I dig it.

Maverick Artificers... Artificer is often looked at a solid addition to a party, but not overly excelling at anything in particular except an overwhelming number of tool proficiencies. This subclass basically turns you into a Lore Bard Artificer, able to steal spells from other classes. But you’re still limited to being a half caster. If you didn’t want a weapon oriented Artificer, and wanted to focus pretty much on being as versatile as possible, this is the subclass for you. Immensely versatile, you have the answer for darn near everything..... just as long as the answer isn’t a spell above 5th level. :smalltongue:

Forge Adept Artificer. The Artificer answer to the Hexblade. No pet involved, but still a nice little damage boost at 9th level. You basically make a weapon, and it just gets better as you level, at a superior and faster rate than an Infusion would give it (without counting against your Infusion limit). I really like this one. It’s spell list definitely lends a bit toward being melee focused, but it’s also available for ranged or thrown weapons. Really like this all around.

I.... Really, REALLY like these subclasses! There’s nothing OP here. They’re solid, well designed, flavorful, and unique.

——

EDIT: Wanted to touch on magic weapons for just a moment. This might be my favorite weapon in 5E, the Hungry Weapon. Uncommon rarity, any melee weapon, requires Attunement. When you hit a creature with this weapon, you can spend a Hit Die, and add your Con modifier. You deal extra Necrotic damage equal to the result, and regain that same amount of HP.

THAT IS SO COOL! I love it for a Barbarian or perhaps even some of the not-so-good Paladin oaths.

[ProsecutorGodot]

EDIT: Wanted to touch on magic weapons for just a moment. This might be my favorite weapon in 5E, the Hungry Weapon. Uncommon rarity, any melee weapon, requires Attunement. When you hit a creature with this weapon, you can spend a Hit Die, and add your Con modifier. You deal extra Necrotic damage equal to the result, and regain that same amount of HP.

THAT IS SO COOL! I love it for a Barbarian or perhaps even some of the not-so-good Paladin oaths.
I got excited at the mention of this Hungry Weapon since my Paladin focuses around Hit Die healing, now I realize the reason I hadn't remembered seeing it is because I avoided the symbiote stuff as its not really in my wheelhouse.

Not that the weapon actually meshes with my build to begin with, the wording doesn't really imply that any of it counts as "rolling hit die to regain hit points" rather than spending hit die for a resource that happens to also heal you.

I agree though, seems fairly solid for a Paladin. Dwarves already make fairly solid Paladins, and the Ruinborn Dwarves seem like a good fit for this. I've got a Hexblade Dwarf that I've built for a campaign but never actually got to play yet, I might push this into the DM's direction and see if I can retool him a bit. Should be valid for Hexblade, I can't find any mention of these being strictly Sentient, thought I'm almost positive that goes against the spirit of things.

[jaappleton]

It really is a shame that many are going to outright pass on this book because it doesn’t have the WOTC seal on it.

It’s a damn solid book, it really is. If you skip the book simply because it’s not “official”, you’re doing yourself a disservice.

[MaxWilson]

Anyone want to give a brief synopsis of Circle of the Forged druid? I can't really find anything other than it lets you be a dinobot. Might pick up the book just for that.

It's a better Moon Druid in most ways (no elemental forms but AC bonuses and resistance to nonmagical BPS plus some ways to disable enemies via element-themed quasi-Divine Smite; transform as a reaction to damage instead of as a bonus action, but not until high level; but your attacks do not count as magical weapons) but with worse recon/stealth (you're obviously not a natural creature).

Probably a little bit overpowered honestly, even relative to Moon Druids. I'm not sure I'd allow one. My biggest issue with it is that it's hard to think of a reason why you'd ever want to play a Moon Druid instead of one of these guys. You get a better action economy, smites, more durability... the only thing you lose is magical attacks and some mobility (Earth Glide or Air Elemental flight), plus you now stick out like a sore thumb, and I'm not sure that's enough to make the dilemma interesting. On the other hand I lean towards permitting RAW (not just WotC RAW) so initially I'd allow it just like I allow Hexblade and Shepherd Druid. I'm merely concerned, not opposed. Maybe it wouldn't cause a problem in practice.

Edit: on second thought I'd restrict this circle to Warforged PCs. Not only does it match the fluff, it also explains why you'd want to play a Moon Druid instead: you don't want to play a Warforged. I'm 100% okay with Warforged druids being more robotic and durable than normal druids.

[jaappleton]

It's a better Moon Druid in most ways (no elemental forms but AC bonuses and resistance to nonmagical BPS plus some ways to disable enemies via element-themed quasi-Divine Smite; transform as a reaction to damage instead of as a bonus action, but not until high level; but your attacks do not count as magical weapons) but with worse recon/stealth (you're obviously not a natural creature).

Probably a little bit overpowered honestly, even relative to Moon Druids. I'm not sure I'd allow one. My biggest issue with it is that it's hard to think of a reason why you'd ever want to play a Moon Druid instead of one of these guys. You get a better action economy, smites, more durability... the only thing you lose is magical attacks and some mobility (Earth Glide or Air Elemental flight), plus you now stick out like a sore thumb, and I'm not sure that's enough to make the dilemma interesting. On the other hand I lean towards permitting RAW (not just WotC RAW) so initially I'd allow it just like I allow Hexblade and Shepherd Druid. I'm merely concerned, not opposed. Maybe it wouldn't cause a problem in practice.

Edit: on second thought I'd restrict this circle to Warforged PCs. Not only does it match the fluff, it also explains why you'd want to play a Moon Druid instead: you don't want to play a Warforged. I'm 100% okay with Warforged druids being more robotic and durable than normal druids.

I think the Circle is alright. But the power spikes come at different points than Moon. While Forged’s attacks never become innately magical, Moon’s does. Forged has better AC but Can doesn’t get a big boost in new forms like Elemental Shape for Moon gets (which extends the usefulness of Wild Shape quite a bit).

[HappyDaze]

I normally take a hard pass on DM's DM's Guild titles, but I picked this up this morning and I'm looking forward to reading it this weekend.

[MaxWilson]

I think the Circle is alright. But the power spikes come at different points than Moon. While Forged’s attacks never become innately magical, Moon’s does. Forged has better AC but Can doesn’t get a big boost in new forms like Elemental Shape for Moon gets (which extends the usefulness of Wild Shape quite a bit).

They don't need the elemental forms except for mobility (esp. Earth Glide): they already get damage resistance as e.g. Giant Scorpions, Elephants, Giant Crocodiles, etc. Elemental forms cost two wildshapes, but don't have twice as much HP as e.g. a Giant Crocodile, so the robot druid comes out ahead even before you take wildshape-as-a-reaction or the big pile of immunities into account.

The magical attacks are nice, kind of, but they arguably don't affect elemental form anyway (I'd allow it but technically the RAW only says beast shape) and even without magical attacks the Forged Cleric can still inflict control (restraining bites) and is very tanky.

I don't think magical attacks and Earth Glide justify giving up reaction wildshape, better AC, Elemental Fury (e.g. reducing enemies to 0 speed with no concentration cost for just a level 1 spell slot (Con save every round), or depriving them of reactions if they're already slow), weapon resistance, and immunity to poison, charm, fear, paralyzing, and petrification. Like, pretty much everything I would ever do as a Moon Druid is already done better by Forged Druid with the sole exceptions of hit-and-run attacks (thanks mostly to Earth Glide) and _maybe_ Fire Elemental horde killing, though I think the Forged Druid would do the latter just as effectively via spells like Ice Storm. (Fire Elementaling isn't so much strong as it is fun and cheap-if-you-can-rest-afterwards.)

I think restricting it to Warforged only restores the balance though, and the more I think about it the more certain I am that's the road I'm going to go down. It makes thematic and diegetic sense, and it prevents Moon Druids from losing their existing niche.

[jaappleton]

Well you’re comparing the features as a whole, which is fine. But remember you need to actually play the class to get to that point. So while it’s nice to eventually get Wild Shape as a Reaction, you need to play quite awhile before you get to that point. Meanwhile the Moon Druid hasn’t had to worry about overcoming resistance to attacks for 8 levels or so, but every time the Forged Druid comes up against Undead or Demons, their Wild Shape’s attacks are only doing Half damage as a result.

EDIT: Additionally, the control riders of the quasi-Smite are limited to only once per turn, and cost a spell slot to implement. And Moon can turn as a Bonus Action, while Forged remains an Action. (I'm gonna ask if that's intended, I'll keep everyone updated)

[stoutstien]

The dirge singer is interesting and powerful. Very inspiration hungry keeps it in check but I could see a order domain/dirge singer turning your average Martial into a blender.

[jaappleton]

The dirge singer is interesting and powerful. Very inspiration hungry keeps it in check but I could see a order domain/dirge singer turning your average Martial into a blender.

To me its the Dirge Singer is the most successful attempt at a Warlord so far. The Bard spell list was a natural choice, considering its buff and debuff emphasis. Spells like Faerie Fire are spectacular and almost always useful, and combining that with the ability to grant additional attacks is superb.

Really encapsulates the commander feel, and heavily rewards tactical play. And I LOVE abilities which engage your allies, so by granting them another attack, everyone can see the direct result of how helpful the support role is.

So many players, especially newer and inexperienced players, see high damage numbers and think the only ways to contribute in battle are with high damage and healing, and that's all. Dirge Singer is such an excellent way to play support while also keeping allies engaged.

EDIT: Just confirmed with Keith Baker, Circle of the Forged is 100% supposed to be an Action to wild shape.

[Fable Wright]

I was burned by the last Keith Baker Eberron book, Morgrave Miscellany, so I'mma wait a few days to get word on how poorly designed the crunch in this one is.

[ChaosOS]

I was burned by the last Keith Baker Eberron book, Morgrave Miscellany, so I'mma wait a few days to get word on how poorly designed the crunch in this one is.

If you look at the credits page (https://twitter.com/InMyEberron/status/1285253195510538240) it's an entirely different set of folks working on the mechanics.

[jaappleton]

I was burned by the last Keith Baker Eberron book, Morgrave Miscellany, so I'mma wait a few days to get word on how poorly designed the crunch in this one is.

The book is EXCELLENT. I can't speak to the previous book, so I can't comment at all on that.

But this book, Exploring Eberron? Well over 100 pages of lore, I think close to 180 or so (at work right now, can't check). Tons of lore, the races are all pretty solid. Some nice variants on things like Hobgoblin and Aasimar (including an Elven bloodline), along with new ones like Gnoll.

I certainly understand anyone being leery about the mechanical crunch of something on the DMs Guild. Just hearing it is enough to make me anxious, personally. So many of the products on there aren't vetted, you've no idea what you're getting when you spend your money on there. So why bother? I get it, I REALLY do. I've been spurned quite a bit when I used to buy stuff there.

But this book in particular is pretty damn great. This is better than the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount book. Better than the Theros book. Heck, if it weren't a necessary companion book to this one, I'd say this is superior to the Eberron: Rising from the Last War book. If Rising from the Last War is the cliffnotes, Exploring Eberron is the full novel.

[Spriteless]

Well, I think I've spent my game and comic allowance for August, since July got hit with the kickstarters coming back to life. Ahh well, 'tis something I've wanted for awhile. Looking forward to reading about Storm Sea mermaids and the marketplace in the land of eternal sun.

[Telwar]

I like it so far.

Would be nice if the spells weren't just interspersed with the text, but also rounded up in an appendix. That's the only thing that annoys me.

[ChaosOS]

I like it so far.

Would be nice if the spells weren't just interspersed with the text, but also rounded up in an appendix. That's the only thing that annoys me.

The embedded spells aren't really intended to be for PCs, the serious character options are all in chapter 6. The chapter 1 stuff is just to fluff out NPC spellcasters since 5e decided to make NPCs still use normal spellcasting.

[MaxWilson]

Well you’re comparing the features as a whole, which is fine. But remember you need to actually play the class to get to that point. So while it’s nice to eventually get Wild Shape as a Reaction, you need to play quite awhile before you get to that point. (A) Meanwhile the Moon Druid hasn’t had to worry about overcoming resistance to attacks for 8 levels or so, (B) but every time the Forged Druid comes up against Undead or Demons, their Wild Shape’s attacks are only doing Half damage as a result.

EDIT: Additionally, the control riders of the quasi-Smite are limited to only once per turn, (C) and cost a spell slot to implement. (D) And Moon can turn as a Bonus Action, while Forged remains an Action. (I'm gonna ask if that's intended, I'll keep everyone updated)

(A) Only four levels actually: moon druids get magic weapons at level 6 (when it doesn't really matter much yet), and reaction wildshape and weapon resistance for forged druid comes online at level 10.

(B) Sure, but does it matter? Wildshaped druids aren't primarily damage-dealers anyway, they're tanks/controllers and spellcasters, and Forged Druids have better spellcasting (can stay in human form longer, until they actually get hit, instead of bonus action transforming when they're afraid they MIGHT get hit) and better tanking (better AC, resistance to nonmagical BPS, huge pile of immunities, and control-based attacks like Restraining bites means the enemy can't just ignore them despite doing anemic damage).

(C) Yep, a spell slot and no concentration. A Forged Druid can have 8 wolf companions while it's in Giant Constrictor form (AC 17 (!) with Mage Armor), and it can grapple and restrain another enemy (perhaps with its opportunity attack), and then it can ALSO reduce another enemy to 0 movement for up to a minute by spending a first level spell slot, which if it's a melee enemy means it can't participate in the combat. It's not huge but it's a potentially-nice bit of extra control that, again, helps compensate for not having magical damage via better control.

(D) I know, and my first reaction to Forged druids was, "Oh, interesting! Better wildshapes but a worse action economy, what an interesting tradeoff." Then I kept reading and discovered that at level 10 they get even better tanking AND a better action economy (reaction instead of bonus action).


I certainly understand anyone being leery about the mechanical crunch of something on the DMs Guild. Just hearing it is enough to make me anxious, personally. So many of the products on there aren't vetted, you've no idea what you're getting when you spend your money on there. So why bother? I get it, I REALLY do. I've been spurned quite a bit when I used to buy stuff there.

... This is better than the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount book. Better than the Theros book. Heck, if it weren't a necessary companion book to this one, I'd say this is superior to the Eberron: Rising from the Last War book. If Rising from the Last War is the cliffnotes, Exploring Eberron is the full novel.

Personally I'm less concerned about the quality of DM's Guild Stuff than I am of just the sheer open-endedness, which is why I'm fine with accepting a specific, setting-linked book like Exploring Eberron. It's not like some WotC RAW (Healing Spirit v1, Polymorph, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Wish) isn't just as overpowered what you'd find on DM's Guild, but as long as it's a known, finite quantity of overpowered or underpowered stuff that falls within the existing range of under- to over-poweredness, I can work with it.

I don't own Theros but I do own Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and I agree that Exploring Eberron is far more compelling, though it's difficult to articulate why I find Wildemount's list of towns and historical factoids so uninspiring, compared to Exploring Eberron's discussions of time travelling githyanki and Slaad republics that rapidly mutate into military dictatorships that rapidly mutate into benevolent-but-genocidal evangelical cults. (Hmmm, did I just articulate part of it? Maybe I did.)

P.S. Whoa, okay, I just noticed Focus Staff on page 18. No way would I allow that as written. Dominating a 20' radius(!) of enemy soldiers with a single spell? Polymorphing dozens of friendlies into grizzly bears, again with just one spell slot? Just no. I'd restrict this to directly damaging spells only, vs. "any spell that requires an attack roll or saving throw."

================================================


I like it so far.

Would be nice if the spells weren't just interspersed with the text, but also rounded up in an appendix. That's the only thing that annoys me.

For anyone who is curious: the new spells are on page 22 and 26. Low-powered battlemagic, and two magewright cantrips: one for muffling sound, and one for gaining advantage with artisan's tools.

[phlidwsn]

P.S. Whoa, okay, I just noticed Focus Staff on page 18. No way would I allow that as written. Dominating a 20' radius(!) of enemy soldiers with a single spell? Polymorphing dozens of friendlies into grizzly bears, again with just one spell slot? Just no. I'd restrict this to directly damaging spells only, vs. "any spell that requires an attack roll or saving throw."

I'm not too worried about the Focus Staff. It's a type of Siege Staff, a 15' tall wooden staff that takes 3 actions to actually use: Prime, Aim, Release. Its a magical artillery weapon for an army, not a piece of gear that an adventuring caster is going to be carrying around.

At best I'd expect to see it as a set piece in a specific encounter, i.e. an abandoned battlefield of the Last War, perhaps in the Mournland.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not too worried about the Focus Staff. It's a type of Siege Staff, a 15' tall wooden staff that takes 3 actions to actually use: Prime, Aim, Release. Its a magical artillery weapon for an army, not a piece of gear that an adventuring caster is going to be carrying around.

And that is the context in which I'm considering it. No thank you, I don't want 4th/5th level spells and a Focus Staff to be enormously better than 9th level spells (Mass Polymorph). Not in my world, thanks. Banning that use of them.

I guess I would allow the range extension to work with control spells like Hypnotic Pattern, but definitely no converting Tasha's Laughter into an AoE, or anything like that. (For similar reasons I have also changed Warcaster's third benefit: no reaction-Polymorphing allowed.)

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not too worried about the Focus Staff. It's a type of Siege Staff, a 15' tall wooden staff that takes 3 actions to actually use: Prime, Aim, Release. Its a magical artillery weapon for an army, not a piece of gear that an adventuring caster is going to be carrying around.

At best I'd expect to see it as a set piece in a specific encounter, i.e. an abandoned battlefield of the Last War, perhaps in the Mournland.

I've not read this book yet so I'm unaware of the wording, but that doesn't seem like much of an issue unless all 3 actions need to be taken by one individual:

-A Fighter can Action Surge

-A Sorcerer can use their action then quicken a spell

-Clerics and Divine Souls can Spiritual Weapon to maintain damage and still use it

-Hirelings and summons maybe?

If it's turning spells into AOEs (that's what it sounds like) then it'd certainly be worth hauling around in an interdimensional space and then blitzing the deployment.

Is there a restriction on the spells that it can aoe-ify? Or can you start churning out party wide Death Wards in advance?

[MaxWilson]

I've not read this book yet so I'm unaware of the wording, but that doesn't seem like much of an issue unless all 3 actions need to be taken by one individual:

-A Fighter can Action Surge

-A Sorcerer can use their action then quicken a spell

-Clerics and Divine Souls can Spiritual Weapon to maintain damage and still use it

-Hirelings and summons maybe?

If it's turning spells into AOEs (that's what it sounds like) then it'd certainly be worth hauling around in an interdimensional space and then blitzing the deployment.

Is there a restriction on the spells that it can aoe-ify? Or can you start churning out party wide Death Wards in advance?

By RAW, "any spell that requires an attack roll or saving throw." So no Death Ward but yes Polymorph and yes Scatter.

[Azuresun]

If it's turning spells into AOEs (that's what it sounds like) then it'd certainly be worth hauling around in an interdimensional space and then blitzing the deployment.

What space would that be? A Bag of Holding is 2x4ft, while a Portable Hole has a 6ft diameter. And Instant Summons only works on items weighing 10lbs or less. Unless I missed something, you'd need a Demiplane.

[MaxWilson]

You don't need an extradimensional space.

Long Rod is similar and only 8' long, and 350 lb. total including the stand. That's definitely adventurer-portable, while still enabling crazy shenanigans like mass Charm Monster, mass Banishment, mass Polymorph, mass Levitate, mass Hold Monster, mass Planar Binding, mass Bestow Curse, etc.

It's hard to tell how much a Siege Staff weighs but it could conceivably be adventurer-portable too via pack animals and/or Powerful Build barbarians.

Either way I just don't like the idea of a item which is gives you at-will Twin Spell x10-x50, utterly demolishing concentration limits. It feels non-idiomatic for 5E, but at the same time it feels unnecessary for the fictional role this weapon plays in the battlefield--the book doesn't give the impression of being _aware_ that this is an item summoners could use to break the game in half, for instance. All it needs to do to support the described fiction is magnify damage spells and extend the range on control spells beyond longbow range, that's it. No need to let it make Planar Binding a dozen times more efficient too.

[Misterwhisper]

I am not paying 30 bucks for content I will never get to use.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I am not paying 30 bucks for content I will never get to use.

DM a game and give yourself permission to use it.

[jaappleton]

I am not paying 30 bucks for content I will never get to use.

Oh come on! 180+ pages of lore, some magic items, and more subclass options than both the Ravnica and Theros books combined.

This is absolutely worth the money. And it’s better designed than those books, too! Heck, the Theros book has the Satyr with Fey origin and Magic Resistance, for crying out loud.

You don’t know if you’ll never get to use it. The quality is certain up to snuff.

The only people that can say they’ll never get to use it are people that 100% exclusively play AL, and that’s.... I mean, I’m not going to tell anybody how to have your fun, but if you play AL exclusively, you’re hamstringing yourself for sure.

[Misterwhisper]

Oh come on! 180+ pages of lore, some magic items, and more subclass options than both the Ravnica and Theros books combined.

This is absolutely worth the money. And it’s better designed than those books, too! Heck, the Theros book has the Satyr with Fey origin and Magic Resistance, for crying out loud.

You don’t know if you’ll never get to use it. The quality is certain up to snuff.

The only people that can say they’ll never get to use it are people that 100% exclusively play AL, and that’s.... I mean, I’m not going to tell anybody how to have your fun, but if you play AL exclusively, you’re hamstringing yourself for sure.

You mean the book that was broken it should never have seen print, and the book that sucked so bad it should have never seen print... yeah high bar there.

If it is not on DNDBeyond, it is not getting used.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You mean the book that was broken it should never have seen print, and the book that sucked so bad it should have never seen print... yeah high bar there.

If it is not on DNDBeyond, it is not getting used.

Good thing that Ravnica book you hate so much is.

I don't understand why you're so negative about this, a lot of people are enjoying this.

EDIT: I should clarify, at least saying that you don't approve of the balance is valid enough reason not to use it.

[jaappleton]

Good thing that Ravnica book you hate so much is.

I don't understand why you're so negative about this, a lot of people are enjoying this.

I get his frustration about it not being available on Beyond. I'm not looking forward to manually coding in these subclasses over the next week or so. It's going to require some time, and a bit of creative thinking on some parts, but its 100% doable for sure.

The fact that its not available on Beyond, as confirmed by Baker himself, is such a missed opportunity. It really is. As a fellow consumer and member of the hobby, its a level of frustration I can certainly understand and empathize with.

Beyond's character builder is top notch, for sure. Its also frustrating at times (The Dragonmark races STILL don't function properly, and that was released in November!), still no Class Variant UA implemented, etc. I have my own set of issues with Beyond, believe me, but the builder is still second to none in terms of quality.

That's precisely whats so frustrating about them: There's pretty much zero competition, which also means there's no incentive for them to get off their butts and do it right.

[Misterwhisper]

I get his frustration about it not being available on Beyond. I'm not looking forward to manually coding in these subclasses over the next week or so. It's going to require some time, and a bit of creative thinking on some parts, but its 100% doable for sure.

The fact that its not available on Beyond, as confirmed by Baker himself, is such a missed opportunity. It really is. As a fellow consumer and member of the hobby, its a level of frustration I can certainly understand and empathize with.

Beyond's character builder is top notch, for sure. Its also frustrating at times (The Dragonmark races STILL don't function properly, and that was released in November!), still no Class Variant UA implemented, etc. I have my own set of issues with Beyond, believe me, but the builder is still second to none in terms of quality.

That's precisely whats so frustrating about them: There's pretty much zero competition, which also means there's no incentive for them to get off their butts and do it right.

I don't know a thing about coding or programming but adding in alternate class features as optional seems like it would be hard to put in.

I would love it if they did though, I really want to play a ranger with those UA abilities.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't know a thing about coding or programming but adding in alternate class features as optional seems like it would be hard to put in.

I would love it if they did though, I really want to play a ranger with those UA abilities.

Jaapleton makes a valid point above, I've had a growing worry about them getting a bit lazy on adding features. The recent UA feat additions have been a horrendous nightmare. There are usually at least 3 different versions of any feat with a "select X" clause in them because instead of adding a checkbox they opt to just have the feat "add A" with the same feat adding B C and D seperately.

For reference, instead of just having a single version of Fighting Initiate, there is a seperate version granting each fighting style individually. In retrospect, this has been an ongoing problem but the more feats they add the more bothersome it has become.

[Misterwhisper]

I looked though the table of contents and what has been posted here.

All I really want to know is what the warforged feats do.

[jaappleton]

I looked though the table of contents and what has been posted here.

All I really want to know is what the warforged feats do.

Basically it brings back Sentinel and Juggernaut from Wayfinder's Guide.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I looked though the table of contents and what has been posted here.

All I really want to know is what the warforged feats do.

Envoy is essentially the same, Juggernaut isn't actually very similar to the old version at all.

Envoy grants you a +1 of your choice and gives you then integrated tool feature(limited to an artisan’s tool, forgery kit, herbalism kit, poisoner’s kit, thieves’ tools, or a musical instrument weighing 10lbs or less) and expertise with that tool. No more language or additional skill proficiency.

Juggernaut gives a +1 Str or Con, allows you to use Con to decide your AC using the current integrated protection model if you choose to integrate light or medium armor. If you integrate heavy armor you gain advantage on Str Saves and Strength (Athletics) checks to resist being knocked prone or moved. Any integrated armor also cannot be targeted by any effect against your will (heat metal is called out here).

[Misterwhisper]

Envoy is essentially the same, Juggernaut isn't actually very similar to the old version at all.

Envoy grants you a +1 of your choice and gives you then integrated tool feature(limited to an artisan’s tool, forgery kit, herbalism kit, poisoner’s kit, thieves’ tools, or a musical instrument weighing 10lbs or less) and expertise with that tool. No more language or additional skill proficiency.

Juggernaut gives a +1 Str or Con, allows you to use Con to decide your AC using the current integrated protection model if you choose to integrate light or medium armor. If you integrate heavy armor you gain advantage on Str Saves and Strength (Athletics) checks to resist being knocked prone or moved. Any integrated armor also cannot be targeted by any effect against your will (heat metal is called out here).

That seems really weak for envoy and really strong for Juggernaut.

I might can do something with the Juggernaut feat...

and so my plotting begins.

P.S. Nothing on the scout archetype?

[jaappleton]

That seems really weak for envoy and really strong for Juggernaut.

I might can do something with the Juggernaut feat...

and so my plotting begins.

P.S. Nothing on the scout archetype?

Negative. Nothing on that.

Here's the list of Feats

Changeling Changeling Metamorphosis
Changeling Focused Personas
Elf (Aereni) Aereni Halflife
Kalashtar Quori Bond
Kalashtar Thoughtsinger
Shifter Superior Shifting
Warforged Envoy Specialist
Warforged Juggernaut Plating

[Amechra]

Shifter Superior Shifting

In broad strokes, what does this one do? I... miss.... [Shifter] feats.

[jaappleton]

In broad strokes, what does this one do? I... miss.... [Shifter] feats.

Superior Shifting
Prerequisite: Shifter
• Choose one of the ability scores affected by your subrace’s
Ability Score Increase. Increase this ability score by 1, to a
maximum of 20.
• When you transform via your Shifting trait, the transformation lasts for
ten minutes, or until you die. You can end it early as a bonus action.
• You can use your Shifting trait one additional time. You
regain all uses when you complete a short / long rest.

Whats important to note is that it says IF YOU DIE. Meaning if you get KO'd or incapacitated, its still ongoing.

[jaappleton]

To shift away from the D&D Beyond bashing (And they deserve it a bit, but its not constructive to the topic)

I know many will see this isn't an official book, and thus many will have hesitations about allowing it at their table. I know this is an Eberron book, but tables often take elements from one book and allow it in their game world. Artificers can be seen in non-Eberron settings, after all. So its totally possible to allow these subclasses in other worlds.

So while I totally understand the trepidation of seeing a DMs Guild title and not even wanting to consider it... You'd be doing yourself a disservice. I know that $30 is a LOT to consider for content you might not have faith it, because its not an official book. I get that.

I'm not saying to shell out $30 for the book and buy it immediately. I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money.

But I DO encourage those whom are on the fence to check out the reviews that're coming out, across various spots on the web (Message boards, blogs, etc). Please, please, PLEASE don't discard this wonderful product just because it doesn't have the official WOTC seal on it.

[HappyDaze]

Superior Shifting
Prerequisite: Shifter
• Choose one of the ability scores affected by your subrace’s
Ability Score Increase. Increase this ability score by 1, to a
maximum of 20.
• When you transform via your Shifting trait, the transformation lasts for
ten minutes, or until you die. You can end it early as a bonus action.
• You can use your Shifting trait one additional time. You
regain all uses when you complete a short / long rest.

Whats important to note is that it says IF YOU DIE. Meaning if you get KO'd or incapacitated, its still ongoing.

Interesting. So if the Wildhunt shifter has shifted and is at 0 hp + prone, someone still can't get Advantage to finish them off.

[jaappleton]

Interesting. So if the Wildhunt shifter has shifted and is at 0 hp + prone, someone still can't get Advantage to finish them off.

I suspect this will likely get hit with an errata. I'll hit Keith up and ask, and report back.

[Amechra]

Superior Shifting
Prerequisite: Shifter
• Choose one of the ability scores affected by your subrace’s
Ability Score Increase. Increase this ability score by 1, to a
maximum of 20.
• When you transform via your Shifting trait, the transformation lasts for
ten minutes, or until you die. You can end it early as a bonus action.
• You can use your Shifting trait one additional time. You
regain all uses when you complete a short / long rest.

Whats important to note is that it says IF YOU DIE. Meaning if you get KO'd or incapacitated, its still ongoing.

Ooh. I like this feat.

[MrStabby]

I think decision around what to buy are not just about if the product is good, but rather two factors:

1) will I play in that world and therefore benefit from the fluff/background.

2) Is the content going to be better/more appropriate than anything I could homebrew for my table myself (or anyone else could for that matter).

So firstly, I hate Eberron. Well not all of it, just the magitech, artificers, the warforged and the dragon marked houses. So there is enough stuff I wouldn't benefit from on the fluff side.

And on the crunch side... well let's be honest, Keith Baker doesnt have a great reputation for knowing how to balance stuff. I wouldn't even be so generous as to suggest it is merely poor. Though if he has sought help in this then it might not be so bad. Still, is this really going to be better than any other content I can find elsewhere?

[ChaosOS]

I think decision around what to buy are not just about if the product is good, but rather two factors:

1) will I play in that world and therefore benefit from the fluff/background.

2) Is the content going to be better/more appropriate than anything I could homebrew for my table myself (or anyone else could for that matter).

So firstly, I hate Eberron. Well not all of it, just the magitech, artificers, the warforged and the dragon marked houses. So there is enough stuff I wouldn't benefit from on the fluff side.

And on the crunch side... well let's be honest, Keith Baker doesnt have a great reputation for knowing how to balance stuff. I wouldn't even be so generous as to suggest it is merely poor. Though if he has sought help in this then it might not be so bad. Still, is this really going to be better than any other content I can find elsewhere?

This is primarily an Eberron lore book - chapter 1 is in many ways about the magitech. But otherwise chapter 2 is about the races like Changelings, chapter 3 tackles Eberron's faiths, and then chapter 4 is about monsters-as-people in Droaam, the atheistic and militant Dhakaani goblinoids, the dwarves, and the undersea civilizations. Then chapter 5 is about Eberron's unique planar cosmology. If you're also not interested in those, then no, I would not recommend the book - I like the crunch, but I certainly wouldn't consider it special.

[jaappleton]

And on the crunch side... well let's be honest, Keith Baker doesnt have a great reputation for knowing how to balance stuff. I wouldn't even be so generous as to suggest it is merely poor. Though if he has sought help in this then it might not be so bad. Still, is this really going to be better than any other content I can find elsewhere?

Full disclosure: I'm not familiar with any of Keith's previous attempts at unofficial 5E work. I'm familiar with Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, the quasi-UA book a couple years back, along with Eberron: Rising from the Last Was released last November, and this new book in question titled Exploring Eberron. That is all I am familiar with when it comes to his 5E work.

MrStabby, you're a regular here on the forums, much like myself. Its no secret I have a bit of a reputation for.... "optimizing". I'm a grubby power gamer and I make no secret about that. I have tried to squeeze blood from a stone many a time when it comes to how much damage I can squeeze out of a character build, no doubt about that.

I say this with 100% honesty:

I've been trying like hell, and I can't seem break the subclasses presented here. :smalltongue:

[ChaosOS]

Interesting. So if the Wildhunt shifter has shifted and is at 0 hp + prone, someone still can't get Advantage to finish them off.

Doesn't work, Wildhunt specifies you only gain that benefit while not incapacitated. Shifting already lasts until you die according to Rising, that line only extends shifting from 1 minute to 10 minutes.


As a bonus action, you can assume a more bestial appearance. This transformation lasts for 1 minute, until you die, or until you revert to your normal appearance as a bonus action.
...
WILDHUNT
Shifting Feature. While shifted, you have advantage on Wisdom checks, and no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated.

[stoutstien]

The shifter feat is pretty powerful. The duration extension alone makes it more friendly and doubling you pool is amazing for a half feat.

[MaxWilson]

The shifter feat is pretty powerful. The duration extension alone makes it more friendly and doubling you pool is amazing for a half feat.

Yes, while at the same time not being broken, because vanilla shifter is... anemic.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this feat is mandatory, because hey, maybe you chose Shifter for RP reasons. But if you chose your race for the combat benefits, you probably want this half feat to make your investment pay off.

[stoutstien]

Yes, while at the same time not being broken, because vanilla shifter is... anemic.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this feat is mandatory, because hey, maybe you chose Shifter for RP reasons. But if you chose your race for the combat benefits, you probably want this half feat to make your investment pay off.
Agreed. I wouldn't go as far as call it mandatory but I wouldn't have any issues in play or even work it in as a race upgrade at a certain level or a reward if some type.

[Amechra]

jaappleton, you mentioned something about a Living Weapon Monk? How focused is it on unarmed strikes?

[jaappleton]

jaappleton, you mentioned something about a Living Weapon Monk? How focused is it on unarmed strikes?

-Lurch voice-
You raaaaang? :smalltongue:

Fist of Bone & Steel -lv3
Increase your unarmed strike due by one size. Only for Unarmed Strikes, not Monk Weapons. So your d4 at low levels is now a d6. (Oh but that is strictly better than- Nah, not really with so many races now getting a natural weapon attack these days)

Martial Discipline - lv3
Pick one of four disciplines, you can’t alter it later.
Forged Heart let’s your unarmed strikes be treated as Adamantine, and you can spend a Ki to do an additional 2d6 damage and push 15ft.

Travelers Blade let’s you spend Ki to increase your reach by 5ft, you can spend up to 4 Ki. Lasts until the end of your turn.

Nightmare Shroud, also keying off an Unarmed Strike. Can force a Wisdom save, deal 1d6 psychic, and inflict Fear. Successful save, and they’re immune to this particular Fear for awhile.

Weretouched. Once per turn, via an unarmed strike, can try to inflict damage over time be forcing a save. They fail? 1d4 slashing damage per round until they save.

Also, at this level, you can choose whether your Unarmed Strikes deal piercing, slashing or bludgeoning.

Now we’re at level six. Pick an elemental damage type, add another 1d6 damage, only once per turn, to the first creature you hit with an unarmed strike on your turn.

Level 11! Now it’s 2d6. When you roll Athletics or Acrobatics, spend 1 Ki to roll another d20.

Perfect Form, coming in at 17, is your capstone.
And.... They’re all pretty strong, as all Monk capstones are. I’m gonna refrain from detailing them too much, as I don’t want to get in trouble for quoting a book word for word. I hope you understand.

It’s another series of choices, pick one and it’s locked in.
Reaction to gain a bonus to AC, or deal an extra 1d8 Poison, or cause static damage to other nearby foes when you hit, or make an additional third strike when you Flurry.

EDIT: These abilities may seem like a little much. But keep in mind nearly all of them require you to make Unarmed Strikes. Meaning you’d forgo a magical weapon. And IIRC, officially, there’s like.... one magic item that increases Unarmed Strikes and it’s available exclusively in the Phandelver adventure.

That’s the whole concept, is that you ARE the weapon. You don’t need magic items for your damage output, it’s kinda baked in.

[ProsecutorGodot]

jaappleton, you mentioned something about a Living Weapon Monk? How focused is it on unarmed strikes?

So focused that it ups your Martial Arts die scaling by one size for unarmed strikes and lets you switch your unarmed strikes between BPS as soon as you pick it up.

Features are a little lengthy, there are 4 disciplines to choose from that give you additional stuff (you choose one at 3rd and 17th level, they don't need to be from the same discipline) and you can choose a damage type (from a given list) at the end of a long rest at level 6 to deal 1d6 (scaling to 2d6 at 11th) on the first hit of an unarmed strike you make on your turn. 7 of the 8 optional disciplines directly affect your unarmed strikes, the other one is a Shield reaction using your Wis mod (acquired at 17th level) with unlimited uses.

EDIT: And Jaapleton has already given a more detailed and less lazy breakdown above this one

[MrStabby]

Full disclosure: I'm not familiar with any of Keith's previous attempts at unofficial 5E work. I'm familiar with Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, the quasi-UA book a couple years back, along with Eberron: Rising from the Last Was released last November, and this new book in question titled Exploring Eberron. That is all I am familiar with when it comes to his 5E work.

MrStabby, you're a regular here on the forums, much like myself. Its no secret I have a bit of a reputation for.... "optimizing". I'm a grubby power gamer and I make no secret about that. I have tried to squeeze blood from a stone many a time when it comes to how much damage I can squeeze out of a character build, no doubt about that.

I say this with 100% honesty:

I've been trying like hell, and I can't seem break the subclasses presented here. :smalltongue:

OK...

So I will pick one example. The Mind domain cleric.

I would argue that this is clearly power creep and not by small measures either.

Firstly the domain spell list. This is not only a very strong set of spells but also it covers a lot of things that the clerics are unable to do natively by adding illusions to their portfolio. Dissonent whispers is a little redundant with command but at low levels the extra 3d6 damage is not to be sniffed at. Phantasmal force - great. Fear - an awesome control spell and arguably better on a class like cleric with access to medium armour and shields than on a class like a wizard or sorcerer. Confusion and phantasmal killer are useful, if niche - almost ideal to have as domain spells on a class that can access more spells each day than any other. Finally dominate person and telekinesis - the former gives a really big step up in power for out of combat applications and telekinesis not only lets the cleric do control against physical stats as well as mental but it also goes so well with flash of insight.

So flash of insight at level one is like a more versitile version of the knowledge cleric expertise. But instead of getting to add +2 to +6 to two narrow types of check you get to reroll AND add a bonus. Now if you were making more than two crucial arcana checks per short rest expertise might have some benefits... But this combos with your telekinesis, your dispell magic, and you can get spells like counterspell from the Mark of Sentinel in the same setting (and what cleric wouldn't like the boost to constitution and wisdom). And this can be used for ANY ability check - you want to go first? reroll your poor initiative score. Need to get out of a grapple? A level 10 cleric can reroll a bad result and still get +5 to the score! This makes you the best as seeing through illusions, getting out of web or wrathful smite and so on. And its twice. Per short rest. Its worth dipping the class just for this.

Psychic force replaces a damage type with one of the least resisted types - its nice. I wouldn't say that powrful but it is yet another thing on an already powerful level 1.

At level 2 they get one of the best chanel divinities I have seen on a cleric. Arguably the best. Disadvantage on saves and on a short rest resource. At 2nd level and assuming two short rests per day this can be EVERY SPELL YOU CAST! Still at level 6 when you get it twice it can still be 60% of your spells. This is stupidly good. Throw on that you can use it on other effects from your allies and that you can use it to pile on some extra damage and its just another thingthat sets it appart.

So the spell list would make this an OK domain alone, the level 1 ability would do the same, the CD ability at level 2 would ALSO make the domain stand out...

Then level 6. A passive ability to mental saves. Depending on campaign this could be useless or awesome. It think it is a better ability than a lot of level 6 cleric abilities but one thing of note is that you have a number of potential friendly fire spells - helping a poorly positioned ally pass a save vs fear is good. OK, would wouldn't take the class for this, but its nice to have as a secondary ability (OK, now it isn't like you would drop out of the class at level 5 because this is less attractive as you get a second use of the over the top chanel divinity).

Sure level 8 follows the pattern, but I would argue that potent spellcasting is the more powerful of the options they could have had.

And then the capstone at 17 - you can make an ally roll a 20 on a save. And you get to do it as a reroll having seen it first. And its every short rest. So if you don't want your party fighter to be planeshifted to the abys, you get to say no.


I just think that there is not only a load of abilities that are pushing the envelope of what's OK, but they are all on the same class here. AND they support each other. Getting dominate person AND the ability to penalise their wisdom save is going to make GOO-locks sad that they don't get this as their thrall ability. You can be the healer and the best skill monkey and have a high AC and great control spells and fantastic buffing/support abilities. Better at dispelling than the abjuration wizard, better at enchantment than the enchantment wizard (well, you know... arguably).




And then there is multiclass. Is it worth a wizard taking a couple of levels of the mind cleric? Suggestion with disadvantage on the save? And native countespell with these abilities?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

OK...

So I will pick one example. The Mind domain cleric.

I would argue that this is clearly power creep and not by small measures either.

Firstly the domain spell list. This is not only a very strong set of spells but also it covers a lot of things that the clerics are unable to do natively by adding illusions to their portfolio. Dissonent whispers is a little redundant with fear but at low levels the extra 3d6 damage is not to be sniffed at. Phantasmal force - great. Fear - an awesome control spell and arguably better on a class like cleric with access to medium armour and shields than on a class like a wizard or sorcerer. Confusion and phantasmal killer are useful, if niche - almost ideal to have as domain spells on a class that can access more spells each day than any other. Finally dominate person and telekinesis - the former gives a really big step up in power for out of combat applications and telekinesis not only lets the cleric do control against physical stats as well as mental but it also goes so well with flash of insight.


Dissonant whispers is a bit duplicative of fear, yeah, but it's a first level slot. On a failed save it eats their reaction and provokes AoOs. It's a really good spell. Fear is awesome and phantasmal force is one of the best spells for its level in the game, I think.

[MrStabby]

Dissonant whispers is a bit duplicative of fear, yeah, but it's a first level slot. On a failed save it eats their reaction and provokes AoOs. It's a really good spell. Fear is awesome and phantasmal force is one of the best spells for its level in the game, I think.

Oh yeah, sorry - I meant command - same level spell, both domain spells for the cleric and both can be used to make someone flee. One trades versatility and a degree of control for damage. I will edit above.

[KorvinStarmast]

I know many will see this isn't an official book, and thus many will have hesitations about allowing it at their table. If I ever get to play as a player in an Eberron campaign, I may get this book for the lore. But I am not interested in more bloat. The Artificer in a non Eberron setting that I am running as a DM has made combat rather ... different ... since he can use a bonus action Every Round to pop up a load of Temp HP from his cannon. The party discovered this rather by accident, given that the artificer in question first fell in love with the flame thrower. And later in an out of doors encounter, we discovered how much more powerful than an single level spell slot the damage from the force ballista is round after round ... no, Keith Baker doesn't get balance.

I have only had one monster be smart enough to attack the cannon, but its 18 AC makes that a bit of a fool's errand until Tier 2 play ... which we are in now. Artificer: great fit for Eberron, not so much for fantasy ... but my player enjoys it and we do get a few chances for him to make a not-too-powerful magic item for the party. I don't like that, honestly, as it is a massive departure from Core in terms of Magic Item distribution, but so far there's not been a problem.

[Luccan]

If I ever get to play as a player in an Eberron campaign, I may get this book for the lore. But I am not interested in more bloat. The Artificer in a non Eberron setting that I am running as a DM has made combat rather ... different ... since he can use a bonus action Every Round to pop up a load of Temp HP from his cannon. The party discovered this rather by accident, given that the artificer in question first fell in love with the flame thrower. And later in an out of doors encounter, we discovered how much more powerful than an single level spell slot the damage from the force ballista is round after round ... no, Keith Baker doesn't get balance.

I have only had one monster be smart enough to attack the cannon, but its 18 AC makes that a bit of a fool's errand until Tier 2 play ... which we are in now. Artificer: great fit for Eberron, not so much for fantasy ... but my player enjoys it and we do get a few chances for him to make a not-too-powerful magic item for the party. I don't like that, honestly, as it is a massive departure from Core in terms of Magic Item distribution, but so far there's not been a problem.

I agree Artificers can complicate things a bit, but I'm not sure how much input Baker actually had on the mechanics of the class? I assume he was consulted, but does anyone know if his influence extended to the build of the class?

Anyway, were I to both allow Artificers and ban any of the printed subclasses, it would definitely be the Artillerist that got the boot. It would at least get a rework

[Chaosmancer]

OK...

So I will pick one example. The Mind domain cleric.

I would argue that this is clearly power creep and not by small measures either.

Firstly the domain spell list. This is not only a very strong set of spells but also it covers a lot of things that the clerics are unable to do natively by adding illusions to their portfolio. Dissonent whispers is a little redundant with command but at low levels the extra 3d6 damage is not to be sniffed at. Phantasmal force - great. Fear - an awesome control spell and arguably better on a class like cleric with access to medium armour and shields than on a class like a wizard or sorcerer. Confusion and phantasmal killer are useful, if niche - almost ideal to have as domain spells on a class that can access more spells each day than any other. Finally dominate person and telekinesis - the former gives a really big step up in power for out of combat applications and telekinesis not only lets the cleric do control against physical stats as well as mental but it also goes so well with flash of insight.

So flash of insight at level one is like a more versitile version of the knowledge cleric expertise. But instead of getting to add +2 to +6 to two narrow types of check you get to reroll AND add a bonus. Now if you were making more than two crucial arcana checks per short rest expertise might have some benefits... But this combos with your telekinesis, your dispell magic, and you can get spells like counterspell from the Mark of Sentinel in the same setting (and what cleric wouldn't like the boost to constitution and wisdom). And this can be used for ANY ability check - you want to go first? reroll your poor initiative score. Need to get out of a grapple? A level 10 cleric can reroll a bad result and still get +5 to the score! This makes you the best as seeing through illusions, getting out of web or wrathful smite and so on. And its twice. Per short rest. Its worth dipping the class just for this.

Psychic force replaces a damage type with one of the least resisted types - its nice. I wouldn't say that powrful but it is yet another thing on an already powerful level 1.

At level 2 they get one of the best chanel divinities I have seen on a cleric. Arguably the best. Disadvantage on saves and on a short rest resource. At 2nd level and assuming two short rests per day this can be EVERY SPELL YOU CAST! Still at level 6 when you get it twice it can still be 60% of your spells. This is stupidly good. Throw on that you can use it on other effects from your allies and that you can use it to pile on some extra damage and its just another thingthat sets it appart.

So the spell list would make this an OK domain alone, the level 1 ability would do the same, the CD ability at level 2 would ALSO make the domain stand out...

Then level 6. A passive ability to mental saves. Depending on campaign this could be useless or awesome. It think it is a better ability than a lot of level 6 cleric abilities but one thing of note is that you have a number of potential friendly fire spells - helping a poorly positioned ally pass a save vs fear is good. OK, would wouldn't take the class for this, but its nice to have as a secondary ability (OK, now it isn't like you would drop out of the class at level 5 because this is less attractive as you get a second use of the over the top chanel divinity).

Sure level 8 follows the pattern, but I would argue that potent spellcasting is the more powerful of the options they could have had.

And then the capstone at 17 - you can make an ally roll a 20 on a save. And you get to do it as a reroll having seen it first. And its every short rest. So if you don't want your party fighter to be planeshifted to the abys, you get to say no.


I just think that there is not only a load of abilities that are pushing the envelope of what's OK, but they are all on the same class here. AND they support each other. Getting dominate person AND the ability to penalise their wisdom save is going to make GOO-locks sad that they don't get this as their thrall ability. You can be the healer and the best skill monkey and have a high AC and great control spells and fantastic buffing/support abilities. Better at dispelling than the abjuration wizard, better at enchantment than the enchantment wizard (well, you know... arguably).




And then there is multiclass. Is it worth a wizard taking a couple of levels of the mind cleric? Suggestion with disadvantage on the save? And native countespell with these abilities?


I haven't read the class myself yet (want to finish reading through the copy of Last War I bought first) but I'm mildly confused by your description here.

To the domain spells, I believe the arcana cleric can get any of these, so this isn't the first time a cleric has had access to these. Also, it is a very rare spell that is suddenly overpowered by being on a different class. I might give you fear, but Phantasmal Force isn't going to be used any differently on a cleric than it was on a wizard.

The 17th level ability is nice... but the effect doesn't seem more powerful than a counterspell (yes, it seems like it works on any save and not just magic, but most of the most important effects will be spells) I mean, "pass one save" can be clutch, but Counterspell could be the equivalent of "the entire party passes the save and has evasion".

I'm not quite sure how the level 6 ability works, but is it better than a Devotion paladin giving immunity to fear, charm, and a +5 to all saves? Also at level 6 (I think, I know there is also a level 10 ability)


I mean, the class doesn't sound weak by any means, but there is nothing you listed except the channel divinity that I don't think was possible before (Flash of Inspiration seems like the Artificer Flash of Genius ability, with the risk of rerolling) .

[MaxWilson]

I mean, the class doesn't sound weak by any means, but there is nothing you listed except the channel divinity that I don't think was possible before (Flash of Inspiration seems like the Artificer Flash of Genius ability, with the risk of rerolling) .

Even the disadvantage on Wisdom saves as a reaction isn't all that exciting. Wild Sorcerers get something similar in Bend Luck (but it works on all saves, not just Wisdom, and you get to see the roll first so it's more efficient), and Bend Luck good, but it's not good enough to make Wild Sorcs the most popular sorcerer class.

It's surprising to see people calling Force Ballista overpowered. 2d8 force damage is good, yes, especially on a bonus action, but look at what you're competing with! Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, Fireball and Spirit Guardians and Stunning Strike and Fear and Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph... The Protector turret is excellent in its way, flamethrower is good, and Force Ballista is okay, but you gave up half your casting progression to get it so it had better be good to even be competitive.

If anything Artificer is on the weak side, but it's the weak-but-fun half of the weak side so that's probably okay.

[Dork_Forge]

It's surprising to see people calling Force Ballista overpowered. 2d8 force damage is good, yes, especially on a bonus action, but look at what you're competing with! Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, Fireball and Spirit Guardians and Stunning Strike and Fear and Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph... The Protector turret is excellent in its way, flamethrower is good, and Force Ballista is okay, but you gave up half your casting progression to get it so it had better be good to even be competitive.

If anything Artificer is on the weak side, but it's the weak-but-fun half of the weak side so that's probably okay.

Personally I like Force Ballista but I think your comparison is a little skewed, you're comparing a subclass feature against feats (which require additional investment to be effective), some of the more popular and powerful 3rd level spells (which you get 2 levels after the Ballista as a full caster), a very powerful (and verastile) 4th level spell and in a lot of ways, a class defining ability. You're also not trading half your casting progression for the turret (I assume you mean choosing Artificer over a full caster here), you're trading it for Infusions, Flash of Genius etc. and even then, the Artificer runs more as a 2/3 caster (At 1st level their casting is on par with most full casters, just behind a cantrip or two).

I do find it confusing though you seem to prefer the turret to the ballista, are mooks just more prevalent in your games?

[MeeposFire]

Full disclosure in the Druid circle:

Keith Baker himself has admitted to shamelessly being a huge fan of the Decepticon known as Ravage, from Transformers. There’s zero doubt that was a huge inspiration for it, as he also said he pushed the design team to have Warforged that use Beast Shape to be more.... composite and such in appearance, but they wouldn’t go for it.

Now, back to the mechanics:

Mind Domain. It works. It’s not sexy or exciting, but it certainly works, no problems there.

Dirge Singer Bard. Not what I expected! I recall Dirge Singers being much more like Bard Necromancers, or am I misremembering? This Bard, while AWESOME, shares little in common with that. In fact, this is very Warlord-y. In exchange for slowing your Inspiration die progression (stay at d6 at 5th, then moving to d8, etc) your die can impact two allies simultaneously, and at 6th level you can use your Reaction to burn an inspiration die to grant an ally an additional attack when they take the attack action. That is SO GOOD!

Forged Druid. I really love this. It scales a little better than Moon because, after CR2 Beasts, it’s a bit of a lull until you’d normally get Elemental Shape. And while those forms are quite good, I feel this Forged Circle scales more consistently, by letting you mini-Smite with the nice riders. Is it more powerful than Moon? At certain levels, yeah, but it also falls behind Moon at other points, for sure. But Forged also undoubtedly burns through your resources more, as well. I love it. Unique, and fun. It retreads Moon a bit while also giving a fresh take on it.

Living Weapon Monk... It’s quite interesting to me. For anyone looking to really lean into a animalistic or beast oriented PC, this let’s you do that 24/7. Seriously, unlike something like the Barbarian or Druid, you could actually mechanically play a Wolf or something like 100% of the time. Your attacks can deal any mundane damage type, it has a decent selection of abilities, there’s not much to dislike here. Small damage boost at lv6, and another at 11 (IMO something Monks DESPERATELY need at that point!), I dig it.

Maverick Artificers... Artificer is often looked at a solid addition to a party, but not overly excelling at anything in particular except an overwhelming number of tool proficiencies. This subclass basically turns you into a Lore Bard Artificer, able to steal spells from other classes. But you’re still limited to being a half caster. If you didn’t want a weapon oriented Artificer, and wanted to focus pretty much on being as versatile as possible, this is the subclass for you. Immensely versatile, you have the answer for darn near everything..... just as long as the answer isn’t a spell above 5th level. :smalltongue:

Forge Adept Artificer. The Artificer answer to the Hexblade. No pet involved, but still a nice little damage boost at 9th level. You basically make a weapon, and it just gets better as you level, at a superior and faster rate than an Infusion would give it (without counting against your Infusion limit). I really like this one. It’s spell list definitely lends a bit toward being melee focused, but it’s also available for ranged or thrown weapons. Really like this all around.

I.... Really, REALLY like these subclasses! There’s nothing OP here. They’re solid, well designed, flavorful, and unique.

——

EDIT: Wanted to touch on magic weapons for just a moment. This might be my favorite weapon in 5E, the Hungry Weapon. Uncommon rarity, any melee weapon, requires Attunement. When you hit a creature with this weapon, you can spend a Hit Die, and add your Con modifier. You deal extra Necrotic damage equal to the result, and regain that same amount of HP.

THAT IS SO COOL! I love it for a Barbarian or perhaps even some of the not-so-good Paladin oaths.

The dirge singer you are thinking about was from a book called Librous Mortis or something like that. It was a book dealing with undead and so everything involved was either about using, making, or destroying undead. So yes that one had a necromatic vibe to it.

However I do not think that it fit very well to what Eberron goblins would be using so going with a more martial design makes far more sense.

[MaxWilson]

Personally I like Force Ballista but I think your comparison is a little skewed, you're comparing a subclass feature against feats (which require additional investment to be effective), some of the more popular and powerful 3rd level spells (which you get 2 levels after the Ballista as a full caster), a very powerful (and verastile) 4th level spell and in a lot of ways, a class defining ability. You're also not trading half your casting progression for the turret (I assume you mean choosing Artificer over a full caster here), you're trading it for Infusions, Flash of Genius etc. and even then, the Artificer runs more as a 2/3 caster (At 1st level their casting is on par with most full casters, just behind a cantrip or two).

I do find it confusing though you seem to prefer the turret to the ballista, are mooks just more prevalent in your games?

Add up the total package and it doesn't come out ahead of other total packages.

Yes, the evil DM side of me loves mooks since they're so cost-effective for the XP. Mooks are a great way to kill PCs on a budget, and they even make sense diegetically too: it makes perfect sense to have battalions of hobgoblins/dolgrims/whatnot running around, more than platoons of Hobgoblin Warlords or Death Slaads. Therefore I appreciate countermeasures to the deadly stuff (AoE to solve mooks) more than counters to the easy stuff (grappling and single-target disables and Stunning Strike to solve small numbers of high-CR stuff).

Small numbers of high-CR enemies are easier to run, but large numbers of lower-CR enemies tend to be deadlier and the evil DM in me cannot always ignore that.

[MrStabby]

I haven't read the class myself yet (want to finish reading through the copy of Last War I bought first) but I'm mildly confused by your description here.

To the domain spells, I believe the arcana cleric can get any of these, so this isn't the first time a cleric has had access to these. Also, it is a very rare spell that is suddenly overpowered by being on a different class. I might give you fear, but Phantasmal Force isn't going to be used any differently on a cleric than it was on a wizard.

The 17th level ability is nice... but the effect doesn't seem more powerful than a counterspell (yes, it seems like it works on any save and not just magic, but most of the most important effects will be spells) I mean, "pass one save" can be clutch, but Counterspell could be the equivalent of "the entire party passes the save and has evasion".

I'm not quite sure how the level 6 ability works, but is it better than a Devotion paladin giving immunity to fear, charm, and a +5 to all saves? Also at level 6 (I think, I know there is also a level 10 ability)


I mean, the class doesn't sound weak by any means, but there is nothing you listed except the channel divinity that I don't think was possible before (Flash of Inspiration seems like the Artificer Flash of Genius ability, with the risk of rerolling) .

I don't think that the issue is a single level by itself. Different subclasses do get really powerful abilities. Nature at 6, Order at 1, Forge at 17, Arcana at 17... The issue is, I think stacking the excellent and very good abilities on the same class. So Nature cleric does get an awesome level 6 ability but its level 2 Chanel Divinity isn't much.

As to the comparison between the arcana cleric and the mind cleric... No the arcana cleric doesn't get all of these. The arcana spell list is much weaker. And much like the class, the issue is not any particular spell but the cumulative effect of all of them. The trend is for some strengths in classes to mitigated by some weaknesses. Its like comparing bend luck to psychic feedback - bend luck is still a powerful ability but on a weker chassis (and not as powerful as psychic feedback). The issue here is that it's all strengths. So here the cleric gets a lot of good spells, most from the wizard list... and a lot of them concentration; so aclass which gets medium armour and shields is better off than a class that doesnt when it comes to concentration. And the cleric gets these spells for free, not contributing to the total number known limit. And even if a wizard could do these things as well,or even better, it wouldn't mean this was balanced. A wizard casts spells and that is pretty much their only strength; aclericgetsawholebundle of other class features. The wizard spell list is their biggest feature.

I think comparison between flash of insight and flash of genius is interesting. Comparing a first level ability with a seventh and one from a class that needs more powerful abilities to compenstate for the fact it isn't a full casting class... Assuming a +4 int bonus at level 7 and two short rests per day the flash of insight gets more uses. FoG supports saves as well though. There are two big advantages of FoI though; one is that you can reroll and add; yes there are times when simply adding more would be better but generally throwing in a free reroll is good. Secondly is the scalling - at level 7/8 the bonus is likely to be the same but by the time you are looking at tier 3 the cleric is pulling ahead and by tier 4 there is a big gap forming between them. Now this would be fine and all, but this ability is a powerful artificer ability - one of their stand out features and getting it a whole tier early seems a bit much.

Its much like your point about the level 6 ability - " is it better than a Devotion paladin giving immunity to fear, charm, and a +5 to all saves?" - honestly, no. It isn't better than the paladin's 6th, 7th and 10th level abilities combined. I wouldn't expect it to be better than even the best of these. If we take an already powerful class, whose power comes from it's class abilties rather than spells, cherry pick its best ability then compare it to a random other ability, then we are always likely to see the former ability shine.

It isn't any given ability being more or less powerful than anything else that matters but the composite. Imagine if this class, in addition to everything else, gave a 5ft movement spelld boost as a class feature. W wouldn't wan't to say "ok, that less good than monk unarmoured movement or a rogue's bonus action dash therefore the classes abilities are on average less good than comparible abilities on other classes so the class is weak". We would be wanting to conclude that strongabilities + a weak ability is still better than just strong abilities alone.

[Dork_Forge]

Add up the total package and it doesn't come out ahead of other total packages.

We disagree there, personally I think that the Artificer is one of the best crafted and balanced classes in the game (the Alchemist could use some love, but really it isn't as bad as its rep) throughout its progression.


Yes, the evil DM side of me loves mooks since they're so cost-effective for the XP. Mooks are a great way to kill PCs on a budget, and they even make sense diegetically too: it makes perfect sense to have battalions of hobgoblins/dolgrims/whatnot running around, more than platoons of Hobgoblin Warlords or Death Slaads. Therefore I appreciate countermeasures to the deadly stuff (AoE to solve mooks) more than counters to the easy stuff (grappling and single-target disables and Stunning Strike to solve small numbers of high-CR stuff).

Small numbers of high-CR enemies are easier to run, but large numbers of lower-CR enemies tend to be deadlier and the evil DM in me cannot always ignore that.


I find it interesting that your view of a player class is (understandably) influenced by your DMing style, would your opinion change were you to play in a game that favored fewer enemies (and that single opponents, or one meaningful opponent per encounter at least)?

[HappyDaze]

I've read almost all of this book, and I really like it despite the fact that my players are unlikely to use many of the options in it (especially not the changeling, kalashtar/quori, sahuagin, and dhakaani stuff). Great flavor. Love the background info on places like Droaam (still weird that, in-world, Droaam is considered "small").and the planes. Mechanically, i like the war/siege magic section.

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think that the issue is a single level by itself. Different subclasses do get really powerful abilities. Nature at 6, Order at 1, Forge at 17, Arcana at 17... The issue is, I think stacking the excellent and very good abilities on the same class. So Nature cleric does get an awesome level 6 ability but its level 2 Chanel Divinity isn't much.

As to the comparison between the arcana cleric and the mind cleric... No the arcana cleric doesn't get all of these. The arcana spell list is much weaker. And much like the class, the issue is not any particular spell but the cumulative effect of all of them. The trend is for some strengths in classes to mitigated by some weaknesses. Its like comparing bend luck to psychic feedback - bend luck is still a powerful ability but on a weker chassis (and not as powerful as psychic feedback). The issue here is that it's all strengths. So here the cleric gets a lot of good spells, most from the wizard list... and a lot of them concentration; so aclass which gets medium armour and shields is better off than a class that doesnt when it comes to concentration. And the cleric gets these spells for free, not contributing to the total number known limit. And even if a wizard could do these things as well,or even better, it wouldn't mean this was balanced. A wizard casts spells and that is pretty much their only strength; aclericgetsawholebundle of other class features. The wizard spell list is their biggest feature.

I think comparison between flash of insight and flash of genius is interesting. Comparing a first level ability with a seventh and one from a class that needs more powerful abilities to compenstate for the fact it isn't a full casting class... Assuming a +4 int bonus at level 7 and two short rests per day the flash of insight gets more uses. FoG supports saves as well though. There are two big advantages of FoI though; one is that you can reroll and add; yes there are times when simply adding more would be better but generally throwing in a free reroll is good. Secondly is the scalling - at level 7/8 the bonus is likely to be the same but by the time you are looking at tier 3 the cleric is pulling ahead and by tier 4 there is a big gap forming between them. Now this would be fine and all, but this ability is a powerful artificer ability - one of their stand out features and getting it a whole tier early seems a bit much.

Its much like your point about the level 6 ability - " is it better than a Devotion paladin giving immunity to fear, charm, and a +5 to all saves?" - honestly, no. It isn't better than the paladin's 6th, 7th and 10th level abilities combined. I wouldn't expect it to be better than even the best of these. If we take an already powerful class, whose power comes from it's class abilties rather than spells, cherry pick its best ability then compare it to a random other ability, then we are always likely to see the former ability shine.

It isn't any given ability being more or less powerful than anything else that matters but the composite. Imagine if this class, in addition to everything else, gave a 5ft movement spelld boost as a class feature. W wouldn't wan't to say "ok, that less good than monk unarmoured movement or a rogue's bonus action dash therefore the classes abilities are on average less good than comparible abilities on other classes so the class is weak". We would be wanting to conclude that strongabilities + a weak ability is still better than just strong abilities alone.


Okay, I am going to have to actually go to the section and read, because things you are saying now aren't jiving with what I thought you were saying before. (And I did specifically say that I was going off of your descriptions and had not read the class)

Note: I misremembered the Arcana Cleric, thinking they had the option to choose wizard spells over the course of their career. That was my poor memory.


First off I see I misunderstood two things about Flash of Insight. I thought you were having someone else re-roll, but this ability is strictly limited to the cleric's own skill checks. And the bonus is 1/2 cleric level, which means you have to get fairly high level for this to even start getting very powerful.

The thing I see though is, it is a re-roll with a boost. And while that is nice, it isn't very power creepy to me. It isn't even the best thing you can do for skill checks by level 4, and only starts making a big difference by the mid to late game.


Psychic Feedback is also very narrow. Very nice, but narrow. It only applies to wisdom saves being made within 30 ft of the cleric. A single wisdom save, to be clear, because you get 1 channel divinity til around level 6, I believe. And, you have to declare it before the target rolls.

Compare this to... heck most Cleric Channel Divinities. The Life Domain can revive your entire party. The Light Domain can deal a lot more damage to multiple enemies, and as an action not relying on anything else, Tempest domain maxes spell damage which can be far more powerful. War Domain can guarantee a hit for devastating weapons or spell attacks. Grave doubles the damage of the next hit a creature takes. Honestly, this might be one of the weaker Channel Divinities. It is good, but disadvantage on a single save, before the dice are rolled, and only dealing damage is someone else caused the save?

It is by no means bad, but compared to War, Grave, and Life? War in particular stands out to me as being comparable. It is limited to attack rolls, but with a +10 and useable after seeing the roll, it is a guaranteed hit. Compare to Mind where you just increase your chances. Sure, wisdom saves can be devastating and this can be powerful, but it isn't nearly the best.

Gestalt Anchor is just a weaker paladin aura, +2 to Mental saves is nice, but 10 ft range limit and it never scales. Again, good, but nothing great. And, if you are within 10 ft and can't not hit someone with a spell, it can be nice, but I can't think of many friendly fire spells Cleric's get. Fear I guess for this cleric, but that is a cone anyways, and is much easier to aim, in my experience.

And compared to other clerics? Knowledge gets a short rest detect thoughts and suggestion. Life gets free self healing. Light starts using warding flare to protect allies. War gets to use guided strike on allies. Tempest has a free push when doing lighting damage (and a few ways to get that damage too). Grave gets to cancel crits (and that comes up a lot, let me tell you). All very solid abilities, and a few more useful than this.

And then the "pass one save" ability. Which again, quite nice, but if we are comparing. Forge gets immunity to fire and resistance to non-magical weapons. Grave gets reaction-less free healing for themselves or an ally when a creature dies. Tempest gets permanent flight.



So, even taking it all together, I'd say it is solid, but by no means overpowered.

[MaxWilson]

We disagree there, personally I think that the Artificer is one of the best crafted and balanced classes in the game (the Alchemist could use some love, but really it isn't as bad as its rep) throughout its progression.

Do we disagree? If you think it's balanced, that implies that you think it isn't overpowered, which is what I think too.


I find it interesting that your view of a player class is (understandably) influenced by your DMing style, would your opinion change were you to play in a game that favored fewer enemies (and that single opponents, or one meaningful opponent per encounter at least)?

Yes, of course.

[stoutstien]

so i finally had some time to read the player options in depth and the maverick artificer could be a monster in the right hands. its slower to get going compared to the RFTLW options but by lv 9 it takes off like a rocket with flexibility that would make a lore bard double take. superior breakthrough means you can up cast your lv 3 spell choice to 5th lv which gives you 1 more use a day than a full caster doing the same thing. lots of fun combos to use and it just get better when you get 4th and 5th lv options.

[MaxWilson]

so i finally had some time to read the player options in depth and the maverick artificer could be a monster in the right hands. its slower to get going compared to the RFTLW options but by lv 9 it takes off like a rocket with flexibility that would make a lore bard double take. superior breakthrough means you can up cast your lv 3 spell choice to 5th lv which gives you 1 more use a day than a full caster doing the same thing. lots of fun combos to use and it just get better when you get 4th and 5th lv options.

"A monster in the right hands", in a good way or a bad way? Are there any specific combos you have in mind that wouldn't work just as well via regular multiclassing or (Bard) Magical Secrets? At level 9 you are only one level away from a 5/5 split anyway, with giving you roughly twice as much spellcasting. Are you thinking of something like Conjure Animals V?

What I'm asking is, do you see this as a balance problem (overpowered subclass/power creep) or just a fun and different subclass with lots of versatility?

I don't think Maverick is a problem personally, but I'm open to examples of brokenness if they exist.

[stoutstien]

Are there any specific combos you have in mind that wouldn't work just as well via regular multiclassing or (Bard) Magical Secrets? At level 9 you are only one level away from a 5/5 split anyway, with 5th level spell slots.

What I'm asking is, do you see this as a balance problem (overpowered subclass/power creep) or just a fun and different subclass with lots of versatility?

I don't think Maverick is a problem personally, but I'm open to examples of brokenness if they exist.

monster as in neigh impossible to truly shutdown.

nothing broken so far. having two lv 4 castings of Spirit weapon or two lv 5 spirit guardian at lv 9 is pretty nice approach but being able to up cast counterspell up to 5 times a day could be clutch in campaigns with loads of casters and it works well with flash of genius if you do miss judge what minimum spell slot you needed. of course conjure X with up casting is worth a look but i've never like mass summoning but its there.

The best part is you can completely change your playstyle every single time you prepare spells.

[MaxWilson]

Let me give one specific example of what makes this book so great: Limbo.

Exploring Eberron does a fantastic job of making Limbo (under a different name) fun: giving it interesting physical properties, making slaad culture interesting, and explaining why Githzerai hang out in Limbo and what interacting with them there is like. Even if you have no intention of ever running Eberron you should still read this chapter and steal ideas from it.