Crit fishing with a bow?

[bean illus]

I've been focused on archery all year. I've made some pretty good builds, but am still looking.

I'm looking mostly at longbow.
I suppose Disciple of Dispater is out, as 'bows aren't iron'?

So Deepwood Sniper ... . Any way to cheese this farther? 19-20 x4 isn't bad at 25+ shots in a round, but ... is there anything else? I know the keen says no stacking with other keen, but the imp crit doesn't say that, and i know there are sometimes exceptions to a rule.

I've never built a crossbow build, but i suppose I'd be interested ...

Spells? Equipment? Prcs?

[reddir]

I remember something about a spell from an official computer game (Icewind Dale?) that had a spell (level 8 or 9 I think) that had some crit benefit which explicitly stacked on top of other increases.

(Away from my comp right now, will post details later if no one else does before then.)

[Gruftzwerg]

I guess we can help out each other here. I'm on the other end of the stick. I've never read any full optimized bow builds so far and would like to know how you get "25-50 shots per round"?

For my part, I can offer you to have a look at my El Mariachi build (see signature).
It's a dual double-hand-crossbow build. Focuses on crits, can heal a lot and later can assassinate targets out of the ground/wall/behind cover. Stacks up to 2.5x Dex modifier. The (increased) 17-20 critrange together with Exit Wounds and Splitting will skyrocket the Blood in the Water stacks (+1 to hit & dmg) in fights with multiple enemies.
With a lil cheese, you can later battle rezz your teammates by shooting at them.^^

edit: can get (only..) up to 9 attacks per round (not counting splitting/exit wounds/haste)

[reddir]

Executioner's eyes (Icewind Dale II video game)
SL 9, allies in 15'-radius, 1min
Effect: gives +4 to atk, +4 to crit threat range (counts with any other bonuses, such as keen or imp'ed crit).

How official or allowable one might consider this is of course dependant on the group or GM.

[Zanos]

Dragon Magazine 310 has the Targeeter Fighter variant. It can spend a fighter bonus feat on a couple of pretty sweat abilities, including giving up attacks from a full attack action for a +1 increase on threat range per forfeited attack. So if you actually have 25 attacks a round somehow you could give up 18 of them for that sweet 2-20 crit range. You miss on a 1 anyway. Unfortunately I think 3.5 is pretty adamant about all the base crit range effects not stacking, so you can't combine that with keen edge or improved crit.

[Saintheart]

Check the Critical Hit handbook in my sig. It has optimised critical builds, including ranged. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ex0HMTfZFb8Ra8-Js-sTioUACEx1rGr3HvUXJI_MYpM/edit#heading=h.np44a4cn0pad)

Ranged is the easiest to get solid returns, so long as you combine Deepwood Sniper and Targetteer from Dragon 310. The build stub is: Targetteer 2/Ranger 2/Warblade 1/Deepwood Sniper 2/Peerless Archer 3/Targetteer +10

Critical Threat Range: 4-20 on full attack, 15-20 all other times
Frequency: Any time a full attack action is taken
Critical Multiplier: x5
Frequency: All day long.
Riders on Critical Threats: None
Riders on Critical Hits: +1 to attack and damage (Blood in the Water)

Assume level 20. Assume our DEX is 20 and thus a +5. Also assume our Composite Greatbow (with a threat range of 18-20, and a x4 multiplier thanks to the kaorti resin arrows in it) is a +5 STR rated bow, just because, with no other enchantments on it. Our attack roll with that shot is +20 -5 [Arrow Swarm] +1 [Weapon Focus] +1 [Greater Weapon Focus] +2 [Ranged Weapon Mastery] +5 [DEX] +1 [Fletching +1 or Magic Weapon] = +25, and threatens a critical on 4-20.

The damage with that shot is: 2d8+5 [DEX to STR, from Vital Aim] +1 [Fletching +1] +2 [Ranged Weapon Mastery] +2 [Weapon Specialisation] +2 [Greater Weapon Specialisation] = 2d8+12. Not much, maybe … until you remember that Kaorti Resin arrows have a x4 multiplier. (Kaorti Resin can be applied to any weapon – melee or ranged --that does piercing damage, which a composite greatbow does. Or if your DM is picky about it, fine, kaorti resin arrows then.) Deepwood Sniper 2 raises that multiplier to x5. As said, the critical range is 4-20, and the attack bonus at level 20 is +25. Assuming you confirm the critical hit, on that one shot that’s damage of 10d8+60.

And mind you, that's without taking into account any of the following:

Power Shot from Peerless Archer: subtract from your attack roll, add to your damage, one for one. Take 5 off the attack roll; your attack roll becomes a +20, threatens a crit on 4-20, and on a critical hit does another 25 damage because it multiplies along with everything else.

After that first critical hit, you have +1 to attack and damage from Blood in the Water. Which, leaving aside the obvious benefits, makes critical hits more likely, and increases the damage by 5 on any other unfortunate sufferer of a critical hit. And which ramps up the more critical hits are made.

If it’s an arcanist or creature that has spell-like abilities, add +2 damage from Arcane Hunter.

No DR applies, thanks to Sense Weakness.

Improved Precise Shot removes all but total cover or total concealment.

And by the way, its range increment is 150 feet: 130 base plus 20 from Deepwood Sniper. Not much chance you’ll be seriously fighting stuff at ranges outside that, and if you do, there are methods to spot and sight targets at that range.

[b]Important edit note: One thing that most people miss about the Sniper feature from Targetteer is that the extended critical hit range it gives you for sacrificing iterative attacks only applies to one shot, not to all of the remaining attacks in the full attack sequence.

This has both pros and cons: if your critical multiplier is high enough, it means you get to impose roughly a full attack's worth of damage on an opponent without the full attack's risks of missing some of that damage because your iterative attacks come up as a 1. If all we're aiming at doing with a critical hit is hitpoint damage, then a critical hit multiplier of x5 basically replicates the hitpoint damage imposed by five separate attack rolls (minus stuff like energy damage which isn't multiplied on a critical hit.) The con, of course, is that if your first roll misses, you haven't got any real opportunities to a full attack's worth of attack rolls off, since you traded off some of your iteratives to stretch the critical hit range.

[bean illus]

I guess we can help out each other here. I'm on the other end of the stick. I've never read any full optimized bow builds so far and would like to know how you get "25-50 shots per round"?

For my part, I can offer you to have a look at my El Mariachi build (see signature).
It's a dual double-hand-crossbow build. Focuses on crits, can heal a lot and later can assassinate targets out of the ground/wall/behind cover. Stacks up to 2.5x Dex modifier. The (increased) 17-20 critrange together with Exit Wounds and Splitting will skyrocket the Blood in the Water stacks (+1 to hit & dmg) in fights with multiple enemies.
With a lil cheese, you can later battle rezz your teammates by shooting at them.^^

edit: can get (only..) up to 9 attacks per round (not counting splitting/exit wounds/haste)


Yeah, you got that about the same, except i was adding splitting, and equipment like Arrowsplit in a wand glove. Here's what i got ...


BAB +16 = 4
Imp Rapid Shot = 1
Whirling Frenzy = 1
Arrow Swarm = 2
Arrowsplit = 2.5

Total = 10.5

Time Stands Still = 8
Belt of Battle = 8

Dancing Mongoose = 1
Raging Mongoose = 2

Total = 29.5 splitting ×2 = 59 ... EDIT: I was corrected below, and fixed the math, i think.

So, depending on which round, or which encounter/etc, ... yes. Somewhere between your number (which I'd love to see, I'll check out your stuff) and 20-50 arrows.

I'll check out the other forum responses later.

[Rebel7284]

Yeah, you got that about the same, except i was adding splitting, and equipment like Arrowsplit in a wand glove. Here's what i got ...


BAB +16 = 4
Imp Rapid Shot = 1
Whirling Frenzy = 1
Arrow Swarm = 2
Arrowsplit = 2.5

Total = 10.5

Time Stands Still = 8
Belt of Battle = 8

Dancing Mongoose = 1
Raging Mongoose = 2

Total = 29.5 splitting ×2 = 59

So, depending on which round, or which encounter/etc, ... yes. Somewhere between your number (which I'd love to see, I'll check out your stuff) and 20-50 arrows.

I'll check out the other forum responses later.

Is your character taking levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator?
Arrowsplit: Swift Action
Belt of Battle: Swift Action
Dancing Mongoose: Swift Action
Raging Mongoose: Swift Action

That's a lot of swift actions considering that you're only allowed one.

I wonder if Arrowsplit + Reach Spell + Chain Spell + Maximize Spell has ever been optimized. Quintrupling your attacks with a single (admittedly 11th level) spell is funny. Symmetrical Archery from Arrow Demon via persisted Draconic Polymorph is nice too if spells are on the table.

Also, it's not 100% clear how splitting and CO interact with the sniper ability. I believe that only arrows that are actually fired are then split so you can't sacrifice those attacks. But it could be ruled either way.

[Saintheart]

Also, it's not 100% clear how splitting and CO interact with the sniper ability. I believe that only arrows that are actually fired are then split so you can't sacrifice those attacks. But it could be ruled either way.

Nope, you were right to start with. The Splitting enhancement by RAW breaks into two arrows mid-flight, i.e. after they've left the bow. There's no additional attack provided, you only make an additional attack roll. Not the same thing. Sniper wouldn't allow you to forego the splitting. However, the enchantment does double your damage on an optimised bow critfisher, since both arrows get the benefit of any increased threat range and increased multiplier you might happen to have.

[bean illus]

Is your character taking levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator?
Arrowsplit: Swift Action
Belt of Battle: Swift Action
Dancing Mongoose: Swift Action
Raging Mongoose: Swift Action

That's a lot of swift actions considering that you're only allowed one.

I'm sorry, of course you're right.
I always make dnd math mistakes when I'm answering late at night.

I almost typed (and should have), "I haven't looked at that build in a while, and my ToB is weak, so I'm sure you'll find mistakes". Or even better, WAITED to post when i had time to do a better job.

But i was talking to a friend while i was typing, and tried to post instead of waiting and checking my work. I'LL EDIT to show i was corrected.

So, about 8-10+ arrows, split, and up to 2 extra full attacks in an encounter, for 8x2=16 twice = 32. Depending on refresh maybe more than 2x per encounter.

21-32 per round ...

Closer to right?

[bean illus]

Well, i did learn a little about archery crits so far.

I didn't know kaorti worked with ammo, nor that it grants a 4x multiplier (i thought it was a +1, for some reason).

I also read the argument about Improved Critical stacking with Keen. I'd seen it long ago, but hadn't thoroughly read or absorbed it.

I still need to read the Mariachi build.

[Saintheart]

I also read the argument about Improved Critical stacking with Keen. I'd seen it long ago, but hadn't thoroughly read or absorbed it.

If your DM gives you Targetteer and Deepwood Sniper that's enough to do the job, assuming you only want the massive critical range on one shot (and you should, because that one shot is where your attack accuracy is highest). Having keen stack with Improved Critical is extra gravy, but if it mollifies your DM to not have them stack, an archer build doesn't need them to. The key is starting with a weapon that has an 18-20 range to begin with, simply because it's always easier to extend a critical range if you're counting by 3 rather than counting by 2 or 1.


I didn't know kaorti worked with ammo, nor that it grants a 4x multiplier (i thought it was a +1, for some reason).

In the case of longbows it actually is pretty much a +1, since longbows usually have a x3 multiplier. But it certainly doesn't grant a flat +1 to multiplier, it just raises the multiplier to x4.

[Maat Mons]

Instead of fishing for critical hits, why not use a Bow of the Solars and fish for failed saves?

[Dimers]

Not much of an optimizer, but I heartily recommend the prismatic burst enchantment (MIC page 40) for crit-fishing. It costs a flat +30,000 gp and gives a prismatic spray effect once per crit even if the subject is immune to extra crit damage.