PrCs where a lost spellcasting level's worth it for a full caster

[Edea]

I've been wanting to homebrew a few casting PrCs for myself, but I keep coming back to the same old problem: "If it's not 10/10 casting why the hell would you take this, and if it IS 10/10 casting, why the hell would you NOT take it". The tired old combination of spells being better than pretty much everything else, while said casting classes (especially sorcerer) get those spells and precisely nothing else.

So I'm kind-of looking to get a list going of 3.5e PrCs that, in the opinion of other board members, really did this correctly; 9/10 or even 8/10 casting progression, but they're still great PrCs that are likely to be taken over straight-up (full caster) 20 builds. I'm also OK with someone saying 'there aren't any, casting is just too strong', though I'm hoping to get some examples saying otherwise.

Please no 'fast-progression self-listed' PrCs like Sublime Chord or Beholder Mage; I mean PrCs for a base full-casting class (sorcerer, wizard, cleric, druid, favored soul, spirit shaman, etc.). Same thing with 'gishing'; a gish expects to lose a couple caster levels, that's normal. I'm talking for characters who're genuinely going to be casters and nothing else.

[Ramza00]

War Weaver.

[lylsyly]

Sand Shaper from Sandstorm: 9/10 with the lost level being level one. But the added spells known is generally considered worth it.

[Ramza00]

Cheating but Urban Savant from Cityscape 9/10 but it is the last level where you lose the caster level. 6+ skill arcane caster with easy entry and useful class abilities. The useful class ability is understanding the monster character sheets based off knowledge checks.

[Edea]

Cheating but Urban Savant from Cityscape 9/10 but it is the last level where you lose the caster level. 6+ skill arcane caster with easy entry and useful class abilities. The useful class ability is understanding the monster character sheets based off knowledge checks.

Eh, I don't think that's cheating. However, if one were to take the 10th level of Urban Savant, would your response be like "oh, wow...yeah don't, not worth it"?

This is the Mindbender Phenomenon, in my head, as pretty much everyone and their mother can grab the 1-level telepathy dip unless they're restricted to a good alignment. Like, I would want to try to rewrite Mindbender to be worth all 10 levels, and without changing its caster prog. Fully ready to admit defeat on that one, BTW, but it would be the 'dream goal' of trying to make new PrCs for myself that weren't just 'lol, sorcerer++, gg'.

[Segev]

Depending on what you want and how badly you want it, Mindbender can be worth it for the level 1 dip, which is one of two levels it doesn't get spellcasting advancement. 100 ft. telepathy, at least in 3.5, is really hard to get on an arbitrary caster.

Pale Master is another example: the daily free undead minion that is arguably beyond any control cap is very attractive for some builds.

Then there are the ones which are a little cheesy, like Green Star Adept, which is only 5/10 caster advancement, but 15/10 CL advancement (if you read its text literally; there is lots of debate over whether that result is INTENDED).

As for why you "wouldn't" take a 10/10 casting PrC, well...

There are other PrCs you could be taking instead; why this one over one of those?
The prerequisites might not be in line with your build.
Note: It's bad design to use prerequisites just to be a nuisance bar to entry, but if you pick them such that they complement the PrC and thus anybody entering the PrC would actually want them, you encourage building towards it rather than just splashing into it for a feature or so before heading out.
The PrC itself might have drawbacks.
I believe Elemental Savant's auto-shifting of all energy spells to its preferred type is a huge disadvantage, but extremely thematic.

[Edea]

Another one I was thinking about was Rainbow Servant even as presented in the table with the CL skips (the text version's 10/10 casting so obviously crazy-good), but unfortunately if there's a Wisdom-based arcane caster base class it's obscure at best (I think Dragon had one? It had an Arabian theme to it IIRC).

Adding Pale Master to the list; going to leave GSA alone since that one's a bit of a rules-interpretation mess.

[Tvtyrant]

Ur Priest if going into double progression prcs.

Malconvoker.

[el minster]

Eldritch knight and Wyrm Wizard

[Wildstag]

I generally see Ordained Champion as being worth the two levels lost on a cleric if the build you're going for is a melee-cleric. Fist of Raziel is also seen as worth it, from what I've seen. The two combined can get sketchy though.

As a full caster, you're still going to get your ninth-level spells, but you're also afforded some great combat potential (total of BAB 18).

Even just Cleric10/FoR10 leaves you a BAB of 17 and casting as a 19th level cleric.

Granted, I like playing the in-your-face style cleric, so other people may have concerns or complaints with those PrCs that I'd overlook due to bias.

[Edea]

Ur-Priest is one of the 'fast-progression self-listed' ones, that's out. Malconvoker's a good one, added.

Eldritch Knight's a gish.

Hmm, dunno about Wyrm Wizard, what's it do?

[Afghanistan]

Worth is such a nebulous term if you ask me. For example what might be worth it for some people can be totally worthless to me or anyone else for that matter. In games that are never expected to break 17th level? Losing up to 2 caster levels can either make or break certain build concepts, however you aren't expected to even get 9th level spells in the first place, so it doesn't matter TOO much. But here is a list of a few Prestige Classes that do what you are describing. Whether they are "worth" it to you really depends on your character concept and goals for that character, how much of that class you expect to take, and where you expect to cut it off should also be considered as well.


Wild Soul (Complete Mage)
Nightmare Spinner (Complete Mage)
Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel)
Magical Trickster (Complete Scoundrel)
Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel)
Heir of Sibreys (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Nonsomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked)
Unbound Scroll (Dragonmarked)
Sovereign Speaker (Faiths of Eberron)
Impure Prince (Magic of Eberron)
Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron)
Gatekeeper Mystagogue (Player's Guide to Eberron)
High Elemental Binder (Player's Guide to Eberron)
Landforged Walker (Secrets of Xen'drik)
Bone Knight (Five Nations)
Cataclysm Mage (Explorer's Handbook
Quori Nightmare (Races of Eberron)
Recaster (Races of Eberron)


And these are just the ones that I found after a 30 or so minutes of book diving. Some are Psionic, some are divine, but ultimately all of them lose at least one caster level or equivalent.

[Edea]

Worth is such a nebulous term if you ask me. For example what might be worth it for some people can be totally worthless to me or anyone else for that matter.

Is the PrC's ability suite comparable in mechanical potential to the lost caster levels for a full caster? It has to be qualitative, mostly because caster levels do so much on their own.

If I took levels of a PrC with lost CLs, looked back on it, and thought to myself that I'd have been better off going straight base class X, then that'd be a fail.

[Lin]

Sovereign Speaker 5 gives 4/5 casting, 5 bonus domains, and an extra 3rd-level domain slot. You could also go the full 9 levels for 7/9 casting, 9 bonus domains, and extra 3rd-/5th-/7th-level domain slots. While this is the perfect fit for a Divine Crusader, I've never seen a cleric complain about having too many domains.

Dread Witch 4 is 3/4 casting and allows your fear spells to ignore fear immunity, which is nice on a fear build.

Exalted Arcanist 5 is 4/5 casting and adds Sanctified spells and Exalted Arcanist spells to the spells you can cast. If you're willing to be exalted, it's nice on a spontaneous caster.

Swiftblade 9 is gishy, but can be nice even if you're a normal wizard. It's 6/9 casting, but Haste becomes an extraordinary effect (immune to dispelling and AMF) when you cast it on yourself, and you get a ton of bonuses while it's on you. Attacks and targetted spells have a 50% miss rate against you, and you get an extra standard action every turn. Using INT for initiative is also nice.

Knight of the Raven 7 is 6/7 casting and feels gishy, too, but standard casters can cast through their ravens from the safety of another plane as long as they maintain line of sight to it (scrying).

Arcane Archer 2 doesn't give any casting, but if you buy a bow with the Splitting property then it's like a free Twin Spell on all of your area spells. You also get to cast said spells as a standard action (even the ones with really long cast times).


EDIT: If psionics are included, then Thrallherd, because 2 manipulator levels is a ridiculously small price to pay for leadership with less hassle and 2 cohorts.

[Lord Haart]

While Ruby Knight Vindicator is primarily used in gish or clericzilla builds, IIRC it's actually great even for a caster that's not going to rely on melee most of the time. Its most abusable ability, for a caster, is one that gives extra swift actions; if you can do shenanigans with these, it can be worth it by itself. The martial side, then, can be fished for useful stances, boosts and counters that don't take your actions away from spellcasting, with actual martial attacks relegated to "well, why not have some backup options as well" role.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

How about Archmage? It doesn't lose caster levels, but it'll be behind in slots compared to a wizard 20.

Several of these are Dragon/Dungeon or unupdated 3.0:

Effigy Master is 4/5
Elven High Mage is 5/10, but it's also epic-only, so the lost casting progression levels don't matter as much, and it gets a bunch of bonus epic feats and reduced costs and easier development for epic spells
Fatespinner is 4/5, but the first four levels are 4/4
Fleshwarper is 9/10 and a pretty good PrC, but getting into it is fiddly (Heal ranks requirement for a required feat). Blood Magus, another 9/10 PrC, is one way to do that. There are others, and Blood Magus isn't a great class on its own
Force Missile Mage is 4/5 and great/necessary for a very specific mage concept
Thrallherd is 8/10, but the two lost levels are 1 and 10
Walker in the Waste is 8/10, and is one way to become a lich
Wayfarer Guide is 2/3, and the best way to become good at teleporting

[Afghanistan]

Is the PrC's ability suite comparable in mechanical potential to the lost caster levels for a full caster? It has to be qualitative, mostly because caster levels do so much on their own.

I've personally always operated under the idea that the newly gained prestige classes level should offer something that is of equal to or greater value than gaining access to 4th level and beyond spells one character level later. For me? The answer is usually "No". Most of the Prestige classes I've listed (excluding Malconvoker, Bone Knight, Sovereign Speaker and Impure Prince on a Druid perhaps), do not necessarily offer enough for consideration outside of games slated to go from 1-20, which in my experience most do not.

I recall a thread where a user once speculated if making all full-casting progression PrCs lose one caster level at 1st level would do anything to discourage users from selecting them or seem like a reasonable cost. At the time, I BELIEVE I argued that it would promote more straight base class builds depending on the scale of the campaign, but talking with a few friends, I realize that I might have been too hasty in that assessment.

If Incantatrix lost a single caster level, or even 2 or 3 caster levels, it would still be one of the most powerful Arcane prestige classes in the entire game, regardless of situation. If Dweomerkeeper lost one or two caster levels from it's progression, it would still be one of the most powerful prestige classes in the entire game, regardless of the situation. Both of these flat and clear +2 prestige classes (at least according to Zeal (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?107618-3e-Zeal-s-(in-progress)-Tier-System-for-PrCs).) Sadly, these adjustments are not the same for say Malconvoker or Bone Knight where if you increase their loss of caster level to 2 or 3, you would need the class features gained to be adjusted to justify being up to an entire spell list behind as if you were just going as a base class.


If I took levels of a PrC with lost CLs, looked back on it, and thought to myself that I'd have been better off going straight base class X, then that'd be a fail.


Whether they are "worth" it to you really depends on your character concept and goals for that character, how much of that class you expect to take, and where you expect to cut it off should also be considered as well.

Your concept of worth seems to mirror my own where "worth" is determined on a situation by situation basis, but unfortunately unless we are actually playing a game at the moment and I know what the basic premise is, I can't exactly tell you if something is "worth" whatever. As mentioned above, there are options that even if they were severely handicapped would be worth it in most if not all situations, but beyond that? Nothing.

Hindsight being 20/20, I should have also added that "worth" also diminishes contextually based on the type of creatures you are expected to encounter or what type of campaign you are in. For example, Malconvoker loses value in campaigns centered around facing down Pandorym because the second sign makes it so that your summons are long term a liability to you and your party and further down the road, your primary gimmick is out the window, however the Recaster is doing just fine the entire time, which I suppose meets the requirements of a consistently good, consistently valuable prestige class that is almost always "worth"

[Edea]

Ooh, thank you for that link, Afghanistan, I didn't even think to look for a PrC tier list.

[Troacctid]

I made a spreadsheet of prestige classes for my warmage handbook. Thirty-something different classes were rated at least 3/5 fireballs (AKA "lateral move") despite losing at least one level of progression. Here's the sheet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UhcBTAHS5wsP-t3j1P23Gmi3Gty2v3tTa-0HqMVsBHc/edit?usp=drivesdk)

[Rebel7284]

9 levels of swiftblade can be worth it due to the whole "spells can miss you" thing.
Dweomerkeeper on an arcane caster has to lose a level and is still 100% worth it.

[Edea]

Thanks much for the sheet, Troacctid, will peruse.

I used to hear about dweomerkeeper all the time, but I'd forgotten about the swiftblade (probably because it's not in one of the actual books). Looks like its original page is gone, any re-uploads of it?

[Kalkra]

If Dragon Mag is allowed, Incantifier from (I think) #339 is 3/5 and grants immortality, and possibly unlimited healing and spell slots.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

9 levels of swiftblade can be worth it due to the whole "spells can miss you" thing.
Dweomerkeeper on an arcane caster has to lose a level and is still 100% worth it.

I didn't consider swiftblade; I suppose it could be OK for a caster-caster rather than a gish.

Dweomerkeeper is a 10/10 class that requires you to cast both arcane and divine spells and have the Magic domain. There are a couple ways to get in without sacrificing caster levels by taking Clr 1/Wiz 1 or whatever. Since it's a 10/10 progression class I don't think it counts.

[Palanan]

The swiftblade can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), in the 3.5 archive.

Note that this was inaccessible earlier this year, and may well be so again.

[NigelWalmsley]

Like, I would want to try to rewrite Mindbender to be worth all 10 levels, and without changing its caster prog.

Why the constraint? We already know how to make Mindbender worth all 10 levels: change the casting progression. So why not just do that?


I've been wanting to homebrew a few casting PrCs for myself, but I keep coming back to the same old problem: "If it's not 10/10 casting why the hell would you take this, and if it IS 10/10 casting, why the hell would you NOT take it".

Well you wouldn't take it because you're taking something else. It's true that it'd be a strict upgrade over staying in Sorcerer or Cleric, but why is that a problem? Class features make characters interesting. We should encourage people to make build choices that cause them to have class features. It is, fundamentally, a better paradigm for PrCing into something to be an easy choice, and the difficult choice to be "what PrC to take" than to encourage people to agonize over whether or not they should choose the cool class with interesting abilities at 6th level, or maximize their power by staying in a base class with no class features.


The tired old combination of spells being better than pretty much everything else, while said casting classes (especially sorcerer) get those spells and precisely nothing else.

Then shouldn't you fix those problems? Give the Sorcerer some class features, so it's actually an interesting decision whether or not to become a Shadowcraft Mage as soon as you get the chance. Write something that's even vaguely competitive with being a full caster. I will never understand the obsession with balancing things by tearing down instead of building up.

[Edea]

I have actually homebrewed a more powerful Sorcerer, but it's already a Tier 2, and really the homebrew doesn't do much to change that. More QoL than anything else, I guess I could try posting that in the homebrew forum and see how much people hate it LOL

[NigelWalmsley]

I have actually homebrewed a more powerful Sorcerer, but it's already a Tier 2, and really the homebrew doesn't do much to change that. More QoL than anything else, I guess I could try posting that in the homebrew forum and see how much people hate it LOL

You shouldn't really concern yourself with the tiers when trying to balance the game. They are, fundamentally, an attempt to categorize imbalanced classes. They are not a useful tool for understanding how to write things that are actually balanced, just as a comprehensive definition of "balanced" wouldn't be useful for understanding whether the Wizard or Fighter is stronger as-written.

[Arkhios]

Honestly. The more I think about it, the more I actually do like the vanilla Dragon Disciple on vanilla Sorcerer. Go with 10 levels, straight Sorcerer, and then continue with Dragon Disciple.
You'll have 10 caster levels which is quite enough for your big booms, cone of cold, fireball and lightning bolt, and you can have pretty hefty amount of spell slots of 1st through 5th level, an extra 7 slots spread as you wish. You could even dump all seven slots into 3rd level slots, getting a total of 13 slots in the end before you add bonus slots from high charisma. You could even start taking levels in dragon disciple after your 6th level in sorcerer, if you put the extra slots in 3rd level anyway.

You'd also obtain almost as many hit points as a 20th level fighter would have (considering the con boost from dragon disciple, and regardless of your starting constitution score).

Your BAB would rise to +12, which is almost as much as 3/4 bab classes get, only 3 points behind. A +8 boost to your strength score doesn't hurt either, especially if you make the most out of your natural attacks and take at least Multiattack feat, which you can take as soon as you get natural attacks

[Sinner's Garden]

Worth In games that are never expected to break 17th level? Losing up to 2 caster levels can either make or break certain build concepts, however you aren't expected to even get 9th level spells in the first place, so it doesn't matter TOO much.

If you never actually make it to the end of the game, missing caster levels is more painful, not less. Because it's delaying not 9th level spells, but every level of spells above what you currently have. One of the biggest complaints about the sorcerer's design is that it starts out a level behind wizards because one of the designers was really petty, and it can make a big difference when you're playing less of the game that you don't have the tools other people have, and may end up never getting those tools. If your game ends at, say, level twelve, and you have a sorcerer that dips paladin for divine grace, then you have to watch the other casters getting to enjoy teleport for several levels and you have it for maybe one session where lots of important things are happening and you can't really enjoy or properly make use of it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Looks like Dread Witch and Swiftblade have already been mentioned; those were my go-to examples for worth the lost caster level. Another that's generally considered on-par with Druid despite not getting any casting is War Shaper. Notably, all three are highly specific in their benefits... though to an extent, that's true for almost any PrC, I guess.

One that I've used in a competition (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24026209&postcount=46) but don't know if I'd describe as optimal is Sea Witch. You lose a caster level at 4th and again at 8th (I only took 7 levels for that reason), but get some AoE goodies. The big one is the ability to use bestow curse on a huge group of people for a single action, which is really good, but Call Maelstrom is also hilarious and the kind of thing that makes you really feel like you're wielding "phenomenal cosmic power". The prestige class tier list has it at -1, IIRC, but the first 7 levels are probably worth it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Slayer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) for psionic characters.

Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6 is 4/6 manifesting because Text > Table, and is totally worth it for Mind Cripple on a TWF build.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sinner's Garden
One of the biggest complaints about the sorcerer's design is that it starts out a level behind wizards because one of the designers was really petty....

Can you elaborate on this, ideally with a source?

[NigelWalmsley]

If you never actually make it to the end of the game, missing caster levels is more painful, not less. Because it's delaying not 9th level spells, but every level of spells above what you currently have.

And it's costing you spells slots, and spells know, and caster levels. It's a big cost, and to compound the balance issues, it's a variable cost. Being behind a level of casting means something different at 6th, 11th, and 18th level. Under those constraints, it's very hard to write something balanced (and, frankly, I think a lot of the things people propose here don't actually measure up).

[Afghanistan]

In games that are never expected to break 17th level? Losing up to 2 caster levels can either make or break certain build concepts, however you aren't expected to even get 9th level spells in the first place, so it doesn't matter TOO much.
If you never actually make it to the end of the game, missing caster levels is more painful, not less. Because it's delaying not 9th level spells, but every level of spells above what you currently have.

It's just as "painful" because all you're doing is lowering the bar to the same "end of the game". It doesn't matter if it is 9th, 8th, 7th, or even 4th, 3rd, or 2nd. A lost caster level is a lost caster level plain and simple. I am growing increasingly confused on how an idea as innocuous as lost caster levels should give you benefits that justify the loss, and those that don't are inferior is in anyway controversial.


And it's costing you spells slots, and spells know, and caster levels. It's a big cost, and to compound the balance issues, it's a variable cost.

Basically this. The list of PrCs that offer alternative options that justify the loss of a caster level are few and far between.

[Gruftzwerg]

4 levels in Void Disciple does loose 2 spellcasting lvls, but they earn you the Moment of Clarity(MoC) ability. MoC gives temporary a skill boost or a feat to an ally.
Together with the Body outside Body spell you can become omnipotent like pun-pun. (see signature BoBaFeat build)


_________________

if warlock qualify as full casters^^, 2 lvl in Chameleon (which has its own casting abilities) will earn you a floating feat to become a craftlock. This saves you so much feats that its worth the loss of 2 lvls of warlock progression.

[Sinner's Garden]

Can you elaborate on this, ideally with a source?

Man, this stuff is all several years old, so I can't remember links off the top of my head. Basically, one of the lead developers, Skip Williams, hated the sorcerer class and went out of his way to mess it up for not being the wizard. It's most apparent in the Tome and Blood sourcebook, where all the sorcerer stuff sucks and all the wizard stuff rocks, but you can catch glimpses of it in basically every awesome thing that favors the wizard disproportionately more than the sorcerer. You can't find it anymore for obvious reasons, but he'd post on the official forums about how the sorcerer didn't even deserve to be called a spellcaster class.

[Particle_Man]

A lot of psionic prestige classes don't suffer as much from not being full manifestors, compared to spell-caster prestige classes that are not full spellcasters, because with the way the psionic rules are written, and the availability of the practiced manifester feat, you don't lose as much (some power points, I guess) especially given augmentable powers.

So, for example (and I don't want to get into a whole war about this, so it is hypothetical, your table may vary, etc.) *if* you use the "no more than one Astral Construct at a time unless you take this prestige class" rule from Complete Psionic, then Ectopic Adept would be worth it because you now can do two Astral Constructs at once.

[NigelWalmsley]

Man, this stuff is all several years old, so I can't remember links off the top of my head. Basically, one of the lead developers, Skip Williams, hated the sorcerer class and went out of his way to mess it up for not being the wizard. It's most apparent in the Tome and Blood sourcebook, where all the sorcerer stuff sucks and all the wizard stuff rocks, but you can catch glimpses of it in basically every awesome thing that favors the wizard disproportionately more than the sorcerer. You can't find it anymore for obvious reasons, but he'd post on the official forums about how the sorcerer didn't even deserve to be called a spellcaster class.

For what it's worth, this matches my understanding as well.

[satorian]

Dracolexi (RoD) is my personal fave. For one caster level, you get a serious boost to power words as well as getting special abilities like healing and free empowers. It's also thematic for scholarly sorcerers and bards.

[Miss Disaster]

For those of you who backport Pathfinder 1E mechanics to 3.5 .... look at the Prestigious Spellcaster feat:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/

Possibly with a minor tweak, taking this feat for a 9/10 PrC (or less than a 10 level PrC) could flesh you out to full spellcaster level. You can take the feat multiple times as well.